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Wednesday, June 20, 2012

Raissman: Suzyn Waldman stands by Roger Clemens after not guilty verdict in perjury trial

Rawhjuh!!!...of all the anticlimatic things.

“They call Roger arrogant. That someone - and plenty of people are - would compare him getting his name on a plaque in a museum in Cooperstown to going to jail. That’s arrogance to me,” Waldman, the Yankees radio analyst, said. “Jail? Prison? Now that’s real life.”

...Her statement was made in the face of what Tuesday seemed to be overwhelming media reaction that yeah, Clemens was cleared of lying to a panel of congressional weasels, but yeah, he still did steroids. Not even a jury of his peers changed that perception.

Waldman had some choice words about commentators with that particular opinion. The only ones fit to print in a family newspaper are “self-important.” Yet there was also an undeniable media consensus that the next “jury” Clemens faces, Hall of Fame voters, is the panel most important to him. And that he will be crushed, his life will come tumbling down, if he is not enshrined in Cooperstown.

“You don’t think Roger Clemens is prepared for this? Waldman asked. “. . . You don’t think Roger knows some writers don’t like him for one reason or another? Roger Clemens is a lot of things but he’s not stupid.”

Repoz Posted: June 20, 2012 at 06:12 AM | 66 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: roger clemens

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   1. rconn23 Posted: June 20, 2012 at 11:14 AM (#4161928)
"And that he will be crushed, his life will come tumbling down, if he is not enshrined in Cooperstown."

Of course that's what old, bitter columinists and other assorted hacks hope happens. Once the fossils start dying off, retire are laid off etc. Clemens will rightfully be elected to the Hall of Fame IMO.
   2. Srul Itza Posted: June 20, 2012 at 01:06 PM (#4162038)
I think the non-election of non-doubt Hall of Famers like Bonds and Clemens, traditional candidates like Palmeiro and McGwire, and anyone else who is demeed insufficiently "steroid free" (Piazza? Bagwell?) would be a good thing. It would help people come to grips with the fact that building in Cooperstown, New York is a tourist trap, and not a national shrine.
   3. SouthSideRyan Posted: June 20, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4162045)
Waldman's support of Clemens is far more damning than any steroid taint could be.
   4. Morty Causa Posted: June 20, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4162071)
At the very outset of this git-go, in one of the first press conferences, Clemens essentially told the HOF to go #### itself. He said it boldly and unequivocally. You could look it up. I would like to see Clemens hold another press conference and say that he doesn't want to belong to a club that has people like that choosing the members.
   5. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 20, 2012 at 02:16 PM (#4162082)
Bonds, Clemens, the MLBPA, and a couple of internet billionaires should build a new "Hall of Memories", induct all of the current HOF members, and then hold their own ceremonies every year.

And they should build it near a ####### airport so I don't have to travel so damn far.
   6. Nasty Nate Posted: June 20, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4162128)
Yet there was also an undeniable media consensus that the next “jury” Clemens faces, Hall of Fame voters, is the panel most important to him.



Wow, it's almost as if the writers have a lot to gain from the HOF and the BBWAA awards being considered very important things in the baseball world....
   7. Bob Tufts Posted: June 20, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4162133)
I've always wondered why organizations like the Red Sox did not build their own elaborate team Halls of Fame. There are some buildings outside of Fenway Park along Yawkey Way that would be perfect to house an extensive exhibit - and the people that jam the street before games would definitely visit and visit during the off-season.

And set it up as part of the Red Sox Foundation.
   8. SoSH U at work Posted: June 20, 2012 at 03:27 PM (#4162136)
Bonds, Clemens, the MLBPA, and a couple of internet billionaires should build a new "Hall of Memories", induct all of the current HOF members, and then hold their own ceremonies every year.

And they should build it near a ####### airport so I don't have to travel so damn far.



That sounds great. We can have the excitement of the plaque room, leave out the lifelessness of the century-plus worth of memorabilia in the museum, and all coated with a rich Schaumburg sheen.

   9. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 20, 2012 at 03:29 PM (#4162138)
You could stock a pretty good Hall of Fame with just the items that have been stolen or surreptitiously sold from the Hall of Fame.
   10. bachslunch Posted: June 20, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4162144)
Re the BBHoF:

And they should build it near a ####### airport so I don't have to travel so damn far.

No kidding -- talk about a horrible place to reach via public transportation. I plugged a round trip from Boston to Cooperstown into Greyhound's website, and it's like taking a tour of every two-bit hamlet in upstate New York.

Going over: leaves Boston at 7:40 PM, arrives Cooperstown at 8:50 AM the next morning. Stops along the way at Worcester, Springfield, Albany and Utica, then a 5-3/4 hour layover from 2 AM to 7:45 AM, then change buses with upcoming stops at Herkimer, Mohawk, Richfield Springs, Schuyler Lake, and Fly Creek before arriving in Cooperstown.

Returning: leaves Cooperstown at 8:50 AM, arrives in Boston at 5:25 PM the same day. Stops at Hartwick Seminary, Milford Center, and Oneonta, then a layover of 1-3/4 hours from 9:25 AM to 11:10 AM, then change buses with upcoming stops at SUNY Cobleskill, Cobleskill, Schenectady, SUNY Albany, and Albany, then a layover of 25 minutes from 1:15 PM to 1:40 PM, then change buses with an upcoming stop in Worcester before arriving in Boston.

Seriously.

Not making this trip, sorry.
   11. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4162146)
Seriously.

Not making this trip, sorry.


I hear they have these things called cars now.

There are even such newfangled concepts as carpools.
   12. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4162149)
We have people here who don't own &/or don't know how to drive cars.

And I thought I lived in the past. Jesus!

No kidding -- talk about a horrible place to reach via public transportation. I plugged a round trip from Boston to Cooperstown into Greyhound's website, and it's like taking a tour of every two-bit hamlet in upstate New York.

Going over: leaves Boston at 7:40 PM, arrives Cooperstown at 8:50 AM the next morning. Stops along the way at Worcester, Springfield, Albany and Utica, then a 5-3/4 hour layover from 2 AM to 7:45 AM, then change buses with upcoming stops at Herkimer, Mohawk, Richfield Springs, Schuyler Lake, and Fly Creek before arriving in Cooperstown.

Returning: leaves Cooperstown at 8:50 AM, arrives in Boston at 5:25 PM the same day. Stops at Hartwick Seminary, Milford Center, and Oneonta, then a layover of 1-3/4 hours from 9:25 AM to 11:10 AM, then change buses with upcoming stops at SUNY Cobleskill, Cobleskill, Schenectady, SUNY Albany, and Albany, then a layover of 25 minutes from 1:15 PM to 1:40 PM, then change buses with an upcoming stop in Worcester before arriving in Boston.

Seriously.

Not making this trip, sorry.


And don't even get me started on the lack of livery stables & properly equipped stagecoach stations.
   13. bachslunch Posted: June 20, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4162151)
And just for laughs, see what happens when you plug in travel from New York Penn Station to Cooperstown and back into Greyhound's website. I did so using a Thursday July 5 departure and Saturday July 7 return. The whole thing costs $801 round trip, and the return trip alone stops in 32 places.
   14. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4162153)
How long did it take you figure that out using your abacus & quill pen?
   15. BDC Posted: June 20, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4162158)
The Rangers do have a Hall of Fame – it seems to have replaced the museum that used to be a key feature of the Ballpark. I haven't been in it since they repurposed it as a Hall of Fame, though: looking at the plaques of Buddy Bell and Toby Harrah is just not the kind of thing that calls me away from watching the current version of the team.
   16. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4162161)
I've always wondered why organizations like the Red Sox did not build their own elaborate team Halls of Fame. There are some buildings outside of Fenway Park along Yawkey Way that would be perfect to house an extensive exhibit - and the people that jam the street before games would definitely visit and visit during the off-season.
The Orioles have done this. Their HOF used to be at the Babe Ruth Birthplace Museum "just a long fly ball from Camden Yards," but they moved it to the Warehouse about a decade ago. (Actually, it's the "Sports Legends Museum," of which the Os HOF is only a part.)


(Disclaimer: I haven't been to them since they opened at the Warehouse; I've only been to the Babe Ruth Birthplace.)
   17. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 04:06 PM (#4162162)
And don't even get me started on the lack of livery stables & properly equipped stagecoach stations


Not to mention the constant threat of Indian attacks ,smallpox, the grippe, bears, and British cavalry.

Seriously, it's worth the trip, even from Virginia.
   18. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 20, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4162163)
And just for laughs, see what happens when you plug in travel from New York Penn Station to Cooperstown and back into Greyhound's website. I did so using a Thursday July 5 departure and Saturday July 7 return. The whole thing costs $801 round trip, and the return trip alone stops in 32 places.


Rent a car.
   19. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 04:10 PM (#4162167)
Rent a car.


I hear that horseless carriages aren't nearly as reliable as one would hope.
   20. bachslunch Posted: June 20, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4162172)
Folks, I'm physically unable to drive a car for any significant distance anymore. I can -- and do -- travel a lot but use public transportation (planes, trains, buses) when I do. Clearly some places are non-car friendly and others aren't, and I've decided not to bother with the places I can't reach this way or can't get around in without a car. There are too many places where it can be done.

All I can say is, I'm glad I went to the BBHoF years ago when I was able to drive there and back.
   21. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4162173)

I'm not able to drive for medical reasons right now, and it has underscored that large areas even relatively close by are basically inaccessible without spending lots of time or lots of money to get there. What would have been a one-day trip with a rental car is basically a three-day round trip on Amtrak.
   22. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4162182)
Would car trips in which you guys ride (& I guess help with gas) without ever taking the wheel be feasible? Depends on where you are, I suppose.

Unfortunately, I've never been even remotely near that part of the country, so of course Cooperstown has never been on my radar.
   23. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: June 20, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4162192)
Cooperstown is a PITA to get to, period.

The Hall of Fame should be in Hoboken.
   24. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 20, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4162206)
Cooperstown is a PITA to get to, period.

The Hall of Fame should be in Hoboken.


I'm still pissed that they haven't moved the Badlands and the Grand Canyon to Maryland, preferably somewhere near I-95.
   25. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 20, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4162208)
Not to mention Yankee Stadium and Wrigley Field.
   26. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 05:11 PM (#4162210)
Folks, I'm physically unable to drive a car for any significant distance anymore.


That's why I suggested a carpool.

----

I don't say that the remoteness of the location is better or worse. I kind of like it because you can make a pilgrimage out of it, but as with anything, it cuts both ways.
   27. BDC Posted: June 20, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4162211)
I've been to Cooperstown three times, but always incidentally: once going from Michigan to New Jersey, once going from New Jersey to Ithaca NY, once going from Wisconsin to Long Island (always by car). It's not only remote, but there's little else around that would be worth packaging with Cooperstown as a destination. (Even Utica, NY is not particularly close, and unless I have missed some important tourist brochures, there's no reason to go to Utica NY.)

OTOH, I've been there three times, so it's worth a detour if you're passing through. I'll be in the lower Hudson Valley next week, a couple hours' drive from Cooperstown, so don't think I'm untempted – but I think it would be the end of a great relationship if I were suddenly to say to La Dernière "Hey, there's this interesting village with a Farm Museum just 120 miles thataway …"
   28. silhouetted by the sea Posted: June 20, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4162215)
[I think the non-election of non-doubt Hall of Famers like Bonds and Clemens, traditional candidates like Palmeiro and McGwire, and anyone else who is demeed insufficiently "steroid free" (Piazza? Bagwell?) would be a good thing. It would help people come to grips with the fact that building in Cooperstown, New York is a tourist trap, and not a national shrine./quote]

In about 10 years, when attendance is way down, the HoF is going to discreetly suggest to the BBWAA that they need to start electing bonds, Clemens, McGuire etc. I woul;d hope people would see this as being about business, but the writers will spin it as the guardians of baseball finally forgiving the transgressors.
The writers supposedly control awards and HoF election because they are so close to the game. They consider the steroid era a stain upon the game, and they did not notice when it was happening. If they had any integrity, shouldn't they give up the vote.
   29. SouthSideRyan Posted: June 20, 2012 at 05:31 PM (#4162216)
unless I have missed some important tourist brochures, there's no reason to go to Utica NY


They steam a good ham.
   30. silhouetted by the sea Posted: June 20, 2012 at 05:32 PM (#4162217)
I think the non-election of non-doubt Hall of Famers like Bonds and Clemens, traditional candidates like Palmeiro and McGwire, and anyone else who is demeed insufficiently "steroid free" (Piazza? Bagwell?) would be a good thing. It would help people come to grips with the fact that building in Cooperstown, New York is a tourist trap, and not a national shrine.


In about 10 years, when attendance is way down, the HoF is going to discreetly suggest to the BBWAA that they need to start electing bonds, Clemens, McGuire etc. I woul;d hope people would see this as being about business, but the writers will spin it as the guardians of baseball finally forgiving the transgressors.
The writers supposedly control awards and HoF election because they are so close to the game. They consider the steroid era a stain upon the game, and they did not notice when it was happening. If they had any integrity, shouldn't they give up the vote.
   31. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4162219)
OTOH, I've been there three times, so it's worth a detour if you're passing through. I'll be in the lower Hudson Valley next week, a couple hours' drive from Cooperstown, so don't think I'm untempted – but I think it would be the end of a great relationship if I were suddenly to say to La Dernière "Hey, there's this interesting village with a Farm Museum just 120 miles thataway …"
That doesn't sound like a great relationship.
   32. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: June 20, 2012 at 05:44 PM (#4162227)
Cooperstown is out of the way, but I think that part of NYS is gorgeous. For me, it would be worth the trip if there were other activities planned around it (golf, dinners, etc). For just the HOF....eh.
   33. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 05:47 PM (#4162231)
Would car trips in which you guys ride (& I guess help with gas) without ever taking the wheel be feasible? Depends on where you are, I suppose.

Sure. I don't think I would go to Cooperstown by myself anyway, so I'd either get my wife, brother, or a friend to drive (and I myself should be able to drive again in 6 months or so). But not being able to drive does make you more dependent on others in a way that can be very frustrating and illuminating (for example, I have a lot more empathy for my dad, who hasn't been able to drive for over a decade due to vision problems). Anyway, I was mainly responding to the "Oh my god some people don't drive" posts.

I have to be in Vermont for a weekend this summer, and I don't have anyone who can give me a ride, so I'm taking the train and then bicycling for the last 20 or so miles. Should be fun but the added travel time requires taking a day off from work.

(edited for clarity)
   34. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4162240)
Would car trips in which you guys ride (& I guess help with gas) without ever taking the wheel be feasible? Depends on where you are, I suppose.


Isn't that how most marriages/relationships work, especially with people of an older generation? The man tends to be the one who drives, at least more often than not.
   35. Spahn Insane Posted: June 20, 2012 at 06:19 PM (#4162247)
If the author's (and most of the media's) bias on the subject weren't readily apparent, this headline would read really strangely. I mean, all other things being equal, wouldn't it be more newsworthy for someone to "stand by" someone who wasn't acquitted?

"Chin up! Even though you're NOT a convicted criminal, I still believe in you, man!"
   36. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 06:23 PM (#4162251)
At the very outset of this git-go, in one of the first press conferences, Clemens essentially told the HOF to go #### itself. He said it boldly and unequivocally. You could look it up. I would like to see Clemens hold another press conference and say that he doesn't want to belong to a club that has people like that choosing the members.


Yeah, but would Clemens say that to Congress?
   37. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 20, 2012 at 07:02 PM (#4162271)
There are tour busses that run from NYC to Cooperstown. Probably can get a package with lodging for less than the Greyhound price mentioned above. Well worth a trip for anyone, IMHO.
   38. BDC Posted: June 20, 2012 at 07:03 PM (#4162273)
I'm just now reading a new book about baseball literature, Double jeu, by Montréal writer Michel Nareau. Nareu refers to the Cooperstown Hall of Fame as "Le Temple de la renommée." Just a test of the theory that things always sound better in French.
   39. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: June 20, 2012 at 07:05 PM (#4162274)
Dave, you can ride a bicycle but can't drive a car? That doesn't sound too horrible. Inconvenient, maybe, but not so bad. Good for you.
   40. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: June 20, 2012 at 07:07 PM (#4162276)
The Hall of Fame is where it is, in relatively neutral territory. Individual teams and/or cities should have their own Halls of Fame as well.
   41. JE (Jason) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 07:13 PM (#4162281)
And they should build it near a ####### airport so I don't have to travel so damn far.

Well, there might soon be ample room in Ozone Park.
   42. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 20, 2012 at 07:28 PM (#4162296)
Dave, you can ride a bicycle but can't drive a car? That doesn't sound too horrible. Inconvenient, maybe, but not so bad. Good for you.

Yeah, thanks. Without going into too many details, I suffered a seizure earlier this year, and legally I'm not allowed to drive for 6-12 months afterwards (depending on the state). But I guess since riding a bike only puts my own safety at risk, and not that of others, I'm allowed to do so as long as I'm comfortable with it. Physically I'm in good shape (actually in training for my first marathon) and the doctors couldn't find anything wrong with me, so I guess I'll be running and cycling a lot for the next 6 months or so.
   43. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: June 20, 2012 at 07:46 PM (#4162317)
Cooperstown is a PITA to get to, period.

The Hall of Fame should be in Hoboken.
Oh, please. Hoboken is a PITA to get to, comma, and that's even including if you leave from a bordering town. Hell, if you change it to "(specific place) in Hoboken is a PITA to get to, period", then it even includes if you leave from any other specific place in Hoboken.
   44. Bob Tufts Posted: June 20, 2012 at 07:50 PM (#4162327)
There's no reason to go to Utica.

They steam a good ham.


But you can probably see the aurora borealis in your kitchen.
   45. Phil Plantier's Famous Toilet Seat Stance Posted: June 20, 2012 at 10:08 PM (#4162461)
We have people here who don't own &/or don't know how to drive cars.


I really need to start a reality TV show called "Car-less in America"

People always express some level of shock when they find out I'm in my mid-30s and have never learned to drive, which is usually followed by me expressing shock that it's some kind of shocking revelation. My parents didn't drive, my grandparents didn't drive, and I don't know about before that.

...of course as I've learned the last two years it's a lifestyle that's a bit more difficult in Lawrence, Kansas than it was in a city with a subway system...and yeah, if my wife didn't drive I'd have never moved out of my hometown.

Point being it might be fairly uncommon to run into someone who doesn't drive, but I've never thought it was extraordinarily uncommon.
   46. McCoy Posted: June 20, 2012 at 10:34 PM (#4162482)
I like the Hall of Fame where it is. If you don't like the Hall being in a quaint idyllic town like Cooperstown then you are not a real baseball fan.
   47. bachslunch Posted: June 21, 2012 at 07:58 AM (#4162565)
That's why I suggested a carpool.

It's the only way I'd be able to manage a return trip to the BBHoF. Should I decide to get into a carpool, I'll see what I can set up. Ray, can I contact you first, since you suggested it?

But I'm also beginning to think a boycott of the place (as suggested by Bob Tufts and others) because of BBWAA-writer voting stupidity wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Would car trips in which you guys ride (& I guess help with gas) without ever taking the wheel be feasible?

Gef, I'd be fine with such an arrangement.

...legally I'm not allowed to drive for 6-12 months afterwards (depending on the state). But I guess since riding a bike only puts my own safety at risk, and not that of others, I'm allowed to do so as long as I'm comfortable with it.

Glad to hear your condition is in theory temporary, Dave, and that you can manage a bike okay. Wish I were as lucky. Also, coke to you and Phil (#45) for the support on the "not driving" idea. The good thing is, there's more public transport out there then many realize.

Dave, I've traveled a respectable amount through Vermont car-less, and there are a good number of options for seeing a decent bit of the state without a car -- though not all of it, of course. If you contact me, I'd be happy to help you out with what I know, as I've researched this a good bit. Post a reply to this thread if you want to be in touch, unless it's possible for you to contact me through the website some way.
   48. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: June 21, 2012 at 08:23 AM (#4162573)
Driving is unpleasant and expensive, and there are a lot of places where it's also unnecessary. I think the level of shock being expressed here is indicative of a sickness in our culture as much as anything else.
   49. Lassus Posted: June 21, 2012 at 08:27 AM (#4162575)
It's not only remote, but there's little else around that would be worth packaging with Cooperstown as a destination. (Even Utica, NY is not particularly close, and unless I have missed some important tourist brochures, there's no reason to go to Utica NY.)

Cannot believe it took me this long to get to this thread.

Yes, Utica sucks, period. I speak from extensive experience. No debate required.

HOWEVER.

Even if you hate the lovely countryside in which Cooperstown resides, there are a few things in the area even the most urbane urban dweller would want to see and would help make the trip worthwhile. 1.) the Finger Lakes wine region. Tastings and tours to last you at least a week. 2.) Glimmerglass Opera.

Again, leaving out museums, antiquing, camping, and biking, if you can't make two out of three of the HOF, the wine, and Glimmerglass worthy of a four-to-seven-day bed-and-breakfast trip to the area, I don't know what to tell you. Other than you are simply too picky.


46. McCoy Posted: June 20, 2012 at 10:34 PM (#4162482)

I like the Hall of Fame where it is. If you don't like the Hall being in a quaint idyllic town like Cooperstown then you are not a real baseball fan.

Someone please check on McCoy.
   50. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 21, 2012 at 08:37 AM (#4162579)
Driving is unpleasant and expensive, and there are a lot of places where it's also unnecessary. I think the level of shock being expressed here is indicative of a sickness in our culture as much as anything else.
The only people who think driving is unpleasant and expensive are people without families.

EDIT: Which is not meant as an implicit endorsement of the claim that it's unpleasant and expensive for a single person.
   51. Bob Meta-Meusel Posted: June 21, 2012 at 09:05 AM (#4162595)
Oh, please. Hoboken is a PITA to get to, comma, and that's even including if you leave from a bordering town. Hell, if you change it to "(specific place) in Hoboken is a PITA to get to, period", then it even includes if you leave from any other specific place in Hoboken.


Hoboken is a bit of a pain to DRIVE to. On the other hand, you can take the PATH from Manhattan or Newark, and you can get a train there from most places in New Jersey. I can think of very few places that aren't a major city and are easier to get to than Hoboken.
   52. bachslunch Posted: June 21, 2012 at 09:36 AM (#4162625)
Yes, Utica sucks, period. I speak from extensive experience. No debate required.

Got to say, anyplace that inflicts Utica Club beer on the world certainly has one strike against it. Apparently there's no truth to the rumor that when a sample of this brew was taken to a chemist for analysis, the written reply was: "Dear sir. We regret to inform you that your horse has diabetes."
   53. Lassus Posted: June 21, 2012 at 09:54 AM (#4162633)
Got to say, anyplace that inflicts Utica Club beer on the world certainly has one strike against it. Apparently there's no truth to the rumor that when a sample of this brew was taken to a chemist for analysis, the written reply was: "Dear sir. We regret to inform you that your horse has diabetes."

Another frequently repeated FYI: A majority of the Brooklyn Brewery beer is made in Utica at the same FX Matt's facility that brews Utica Club.
   54. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 21, 2012 at 10:31 AM (#4162660)
It's the only way I'd be able to manage a return trip to the BBHoF. Should I decide to get into a carpool, I'll see what I can set up. Ray, can I contact you first, since you suggested it?


As the murderer Ross Martin told an inquisitive Peter Falk in Suitable For Framing, "I'm not your only option, you know."

---

Driving is unpleasant and expensive, and there are a lot of places where it's also unnecessary. I think the level of shock being expressed here is indicative of a sickness in our culture as much as anything else.


No, I really do think it's bizarre - indicative of a sickness if you will - when a person in American society under the age of 90 who is of sound mind and body has never learned to drive.

People might not like to drive (I like it, but whatever). They may not be very good at it, so don't want to drive. But to never have learned, no matter where one lives, is odd.
   55. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 21, 2012 at 10:37 AM (#4162666)
Gaming, & while I'm at it use of a cell phone, is unpleasant and expensive, and there are a lot of places where it's also unnecessary. I think the level of shock being expressed here is indicative of a sickness in our culture as much as anything else.


Much better!
   56. Lassus Posted: June 21, 2012 at 10:40 AM (#4162670)
People might not like to drive (I like it, but whatever). They may not be very good at it, so don't want to drive. But to never have learned, no matter where one lives, is odd.

The one place where it is less odd than anywhere else is for lifetime New York City dwellers. I know plenty of these who have never learned.
   57. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 21, 2012 at 10:44 AM (#4162672)
Yeah. Depends on where you are. Away from the largest, probably Northeastern cities, it's extremely odd, I'd say.
   58. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: June 21, 2012 at 10:44 AM (#4162673)
Lassus is correct.
   59. zack Posted: June 21, 2012 at 10:54 AM (#4162691)
No, I really do think it's bizarre - indicative of a sickness if you will - when a person in American society under the age of 90 who is of sound mind and body has never learned to drive.


Please nobody respond to this.

I've never been, but the Boxing Hall of Fame is on the way to/from Cooperstown if you're coming from the West.
   60. The Good Face Posted: June 21, 2012 at 10:58 AM (#4162695)
Driving is unpleasant and expensive, and there are a lot of places where it's also unnecessary.


Huh. I find driving to be pleasurable, and the more expensive it gets, the more pleasurable the experience becomes. Thanks to outrageously expensive gas and plummeting wealth among American families, there are fewer people on the roads and much less traffic to deal with.

And yeah, unless you're a lifetime NYC resident, in which case it's understandable, not knowing how to drive is odd.
   61. McCoy Posted: June 21, 2012 at 11:00 AM (#4162697)
I've lived in DC now for 10 months and I've only used my car to drive to golf courses, a casino, and to a Thanksgiving dinner out in the suburbs. I've only been to a gas station once in the last 10 months and I've gone several months at a time without using my car. The only time I'm in my car is on Mondays and Tuesdays when I have to change the side of the road it is parked on.
   62. Lassus Posted: June 21, 2012 at 11:09 AM (#4162701)
I've never been, but the Boxing Hall of Fame is on the way to/from Cooperstown if you're coming from the West.

Or northwest, say, Toronto. Or the middle of lake Ontario.
   63. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 21, 2012 at 11:14 AM (#4162711)
Whether one needs a car, or has one but doesn't use it very much, is different from whether one has learned how to drive.
   64. TerpNats Posted: June 21, 2012 at 11:21 AM (#4162725)
Got to say, anyplace that inflicts Utica Club beer on the world certainly has one strike against it.
Ever seen one of the famous Schultz and Dooley talking beer mug commercials, most of them voiced by Jonathan Winters? Great spots, right up there with the Bert and Harry Piels commercials, and a well-remembered part of upstate New York TV throughout the 1960s. Some examples can be found here:
   65. zack Posted: June 21, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4162729)
Or northwest, say, Toronto. Or the middle of lake Ontario.

Well I was thinking anyone coming down 90, but on reflection if you're coming from PA or westerly, it's probably smarter to take 17 when they split. But I grew up in Lake Ontario basically.

Also I really like the Saranac beers.
   66. BDC Posted: June 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM (#4162734)
I didn't learn to drive till I was 25, and I cheerfully admit that there was something wrong with me. To mitigate my neuroses, though, I really didn't need a car much in the places where I lived. I have come to really enjoy driving in the 28 years since. I've driven the length of California and the width of Germany, driven from Texas to Williamsport, PA; from Long Island to the North Woods of Wisconsin. I don't much care for the street layout of Dallas, and I don't think I ever want to drive in Boston, but the open highways of America are really wonderful places.

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