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Monday, June 23, 2014

Rapoport: Kershaw’s gem was great, but batters feared Nolan Ryan

Hey, Rapoport! I haven’t read you in ages.

Ranking no-hitters may seem like a fool’s errand. Greatness is greatness and this sort of example doesn’t happen very often. Why not leave it at that?

But when a pitcher ascends toward the upper echelon of strikeout potential and pitches a no-hitter as well, the temptation to match him against those who came before becomes irresistible. And since claims are being made that Clayton Kershaw’s no-hit victory over Colorado on June 18 is the most dominant pitching performance ever, it becomes our civic duty to summon up a memory of Nolan Ryan.

...The only mark against Ryan that day was that he issued four walks while Kershaw allowed none. This gives Kershaw the nod, his supporters say. Fair enough, except for this.

Ryan threw the ball harder than Kershaw—his fastball was routinely measured at more than 100 miles per hour—and he therefore didn’t have Kershaw’s ability to control where it went. Walks were such a part of Ryan’s repertoire that he didn’t pitch a complete game without one until he was 36 years old and was no longer throwing as hard.

But I’ve always thought that Ryan’s occasional inability to get the ball over the plate was one of his strengths. The idea that a pitch might get away from him was firmly implanted in hitters’ minds as they approached the plate.

...As Kershaw’s no-hitter in Dodger Stadium was winding down, a television camera peered into the Rockies’ dugout and Vin Scully noted the look of awe on the faces of their hitters. That struck me as about right and points to the essential difference when the subject is domination.

When the Tigers came to the plate against Ryan that day, their main emotion was not awe but fear.

Repoz Posted: June 23, 2014 at 05:53 AM | 53 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: angels, dodgers, history, mets

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   1. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: June 23, 2014 at 07:35 AM (#4733300)
I didn;t see the game, but I just watched this well-edited video of all 27 outs Kershaw recorded, with Vin Scully as the announcer. Only one ball seemed like a real challenge (an awesome play by the third baseman on a deep grounder down the line, and a sweet scoop by AGon at first).

Kershaw + Scully = gorgeous baseball.

http://mashable.com/2014/06/19/see-clayton-kershaws-dazzling-no-hitter-in-1-short-video/

   2. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: June 23, 2014 at 07:36 AM (#4733301)
   3. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 23, 2014 at 07:52 AM (#4733304)
The shots of his wife cheering in the stands were adorable.
   4. Austin Kearns: The Spy Who Shagged Flies Posted: June 23, 2014 at 08:25 AM (#4733315)
Batters feared Nolan Ryan because he threw the ball hard, and was wild enough that they were afraid they might get hit by one of his pitches.
   5. Howie Menckel Posted: June 23, 2014 at 08:25 AM (#4733316)
teh fear!
   6. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: June 23, 2014 at 08:31 AM (#4733321)
batters feared Nolan Ryan

...and pitchers feared Jim Rice, so when they faced each other it was TEH TERROR!!!!eleven!!!!

Actually, Rice was a miserable 150/244/300 in 45 AB against Ryan, striking out 19 times.
   7. JRVJ Posted: June 23, 2014 at 09:22 AM (#4733364)
I don't doubt that Ryan was feared. However, I figure that this writer wrote this story because he wanted to use old Ryan anecdotes.

Which is fine.
   8. jmurph Posted: June 23, 2014 at 09:27 AM (#4733368)
Ryan threw the ball harder than Kershaw—his fastball was routinely measured at more than 100 miles per hour—and he therefore didn’t have Kershaw’s ability to control where it went.


You soft kids with your coddling and your Nintendo and your ability to control where the ball goes when you throw it.
   9. Hal Chase School of Professionalism Posted: June 23, 2014 at 09:53 AM (#4733387)
I figure that this writer wrote this story because he wanted to use old Ryan anecdotes.



There's got to be some 1970's equivalent article by some ink-stained wretch that tells readers to get off his lawn because there's no way that Ryan threw as hard as Rapid Robert Feller... and it's 1940's grandfather that compares Feller unfavorably to Walter Johnson.

And then there was probably some d*^k in Boston that insisted that Smoky Joe Wood was better than all of them before he hurt his arm.
   10. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 23, 2014 at 10:01 AM (#4733394)
I will stipulate that no pitcher was ever as feared by opposing hitters as Nolan Ryan. I think that's hard to make an argument against.

How good Nolan Ryan actually was at winning games is an entirely separate matter (he was very good, not great; he walked far too damn many guys.) But sure, he was feared.

I'm not really seeing the story here.

Vaguely related... there's an anecdote in Moneyball wherein (I think) Ron Washington was carrying on with Thad Bosley and Ray Durham about how many steals there were in his time, and he said "Now you didn't steal off Nolan Ryan, because all that did was piss Nolan Ryan off." Except the record shows runners did steal off Nolan Ryan, with very good success because Ryan never paid much attention to baserunners, and if it pissed him off, well, Pissed Off Nolan Ryan still threw 101 MPH over and over and walked far too damn many guys.

Nolan Ryan pitched exactly like a modern relief ace, except rather than doing it for 20-30 pitches at a time, he did it for 150 pitches at a time, 30 times a year, for 25 years, and was still throwing in the high 90s well into his 40s. That he was that level of freak of nature--in a world where anyone who can pitch at a major league level for years without blowing out his arm is a freak of nature--is absolutely flabbergasting, and why he was such a mythical figure in his own time and will always remain so. We will never see his like again.
   11. Ron J2 Posted: June 23, 2014 at 10:55 AM (#4733443)
#10 Amos Rusie? After all, the modern pitching distance is due in no small part from batter fears of Rusie.

And the "threw harder than" stories go back at least to Rusie, with some people insisting that Jouett Meekin threw harder than Rusie when he first came up.

And I'm sure there were, "he's no Creighton" stories out there. Pretty clear that Creighton was the first guy to throw consistently hard (breaking the rules that were in place at the time to do so)
   12. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 23, 2014 at 11:08 AM (#4733454)
Ranking no-hitters may seem like a fool’s errand.
When the Tigers came to the plate against Ryan that day, their main emotion was not awe but fear.


Ah, yes, but ranking no-hitters based on your "knowledge" of the "main emotions" of people you've never met, on a specific day more than 40 years ago, that's completely legit.
   13. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 23, 2014 at 12:16 PM (#4733522)

Rapoport: Kershaw’s gem was great, but batters feared Nolan Ryan

Weird headline and article. Ryan was great and his style lent itself to more no-hitters than anyone else, but Kershaw at his peak right now is a better pitcher.
   14. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 23, 2014 at 12:55 PM (#4733564)
Seasons of 150 OPS+:

Kershaw 3
Ryan 1

   15. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: June 23, 2014 at 01:10 PM (#4733579)
Other than that play at third, the toughest out in Kershaw's game was probably the first comebacker he had to field.
   16. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 23, 2014 at 01:18 PM (#4733590)
The headline should be: "Kershaw is great, and batters feared Nolan Ryan."
   17. Moeball Posted: June 23, 2014 at 01:19 PM (#4733591)
Was the game where Ryan pitched the no-hitter against Detroit the game where Norm Cash brought a table leg out to the plate because he said ordinary bats were useless?
   18. tfbg9 Posted: June 23, 2014 at 01:55 PM (#4733637)
And then there was probably some d*^k in Boston that insisted that Smoky Joe Wood was better than all of them before he hurt his arm.


Actually, Walter Johnson himself said "No man alive throws harder than Smokey Joe Wood." I think. IIRC. TLTLIU.
   19. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: June 23, 2014 at 03:06 PM (#4733715)
Seasons of 150 OPS+:

Kershaw 3
Ryan 1


Kershaw's career high in OPS+ is 41. (yeah, I know you meant ERA+)

Anyway, the pitch that impressed me most in the start was not the fastball or curve, those he's been great at for a long time, but the slider. Randy Johnson at his peak would make batters look silly swinging and missing at sliders inside in the dirt and Kershaw's slider was looking like Randy Johnson's from 12 years ago and getting the same swings and misses.
   20. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 23, 2014 at 03:08 PM (#4733717)
Actually, Walter Johnson himself said "No man alive throws harder than Smokey Joe Wood." I think. IIRC. TLTLIU.

"Can I throw harder than Joe Wood?" (Johnson) asked a waiting reporter. "Listen, mister, no man alive can throw harder than Smoky Joe Wood."

   21. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 23, 2014 at 03:25 PM (#4733740)
Was the game where Ryan pitched the no-hitter against Detroit the game where Norm Cash brought a table leg out to the plate because he said ordinary bats were useless?


So, not being old enough to remember this, I immediately thought "that has to be apocryphal." But no, YouTube has actual footage. Which got me thinking that jokes like that have completely vanished from the modern game, at least during play of official games. The Randy Johnson-Larry Walker thing in the All-Star Game is the closest thing I can remember off the top of my head, but that before Bud made the All-Star Game a Big Important Thing That Counts. Maybe Greg Harris switch-pitching, but that arguably gave a tactical advantage, as does having a position player pitch to save the bullpen in a blowout. So, what's the most recent example anyone can come up with of an attempt at a joke, that could potentially affect play but not give the party in question an advantage, during an official game?

EDIT: And the mere act of writing Neifi Perez's name in the starting lineup doesn't count. Must be intentionally funny.
   22. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 23, 2014 at 03:41 PM (#4733769)
Can't do bush league #### like that, it Disrespects the Game.

I've never formally written out a First Ten Things I'd Do With a Time Machine, but I'm pretty sure one of the ten would be "bring Rabbit Maranville to 2014 and turn him loose."
   23. SandyRiver Posted: June 23, 2014 at 03:45 PM (#4733776)
Where might Kershaw's gem stand against Koufax's 1965 PG? That featured 14 Ks, including the final 6 batters, plus some foul pops and other weak flyballs - also a deep OF liner to end the 5th, probably the closest thing to a hit judging by pbp. Of course, by 1965 Koufax had achieved pinpoint control and was nowhere near as aggressive as Don Drysdale, so maybe it was another case of "awe, not fear."

The other cool thing about that game was that the Cubs' Bob Hendley carried a no-hitter thru most of the game and allowed just two baserunners (both Lou Johnson.) The only run came on a BB, sac bunt, then SB+E2. Only 53 PA in a full 9-inning game (or as full as a home-team non-walkoff win can be.)
   24. Dan Lee is some pumkins Posted: June 23, 2014 at 03:46 PM (#4733778)
So, what's the most recent example anyone can come up with of an attempt at a joke, that could potentially affect play but not give the party in question an advantage, during an official game?
Phil Niekro stole second base in 1986.

No, really, he stole second base. Niekro ran from the dugout onto the field, wearing a mask, in the middle of a teammate's at-bat. Slid into second base, waited for a "safe" sign from the ump, grabbed the bag, and ran off the field with it.

It was semi-planned, but still, it happened smack dab in the middle of an at-bat.
   25. Dan Lee is some pumkins Posted: June 23, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4733784)
Oh, and Phil Niekro is now 75 years old. That makes my brain hurt.
   26. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 23, 2014 at 04:18 PM (#4733828)
Of all the "Person X is now Y years old" statements, that strikes me as one of the least likely to cause one's brain to hurt, in that Niekro looked like he was 80 by the time he retired.
   27. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 23, 2014 at 04:24 PM (#4733840)
Can't do bush league #### like that, it Disrespects the Game.


Well, I also learned that Cash drowned at age 51. Baseball karma's a #####.
   28. Batman Posted: June 23, 2014 at 04:58 PM (#4733902)
It was only AA, but there's Dave Bresnahan and the potato from 1987.
   29. toratoratora Posted: June 23, 2014 at 05:00 PM (#4733909)
Batters feared Nolan Ryan because he threw the ball hard, and was wild enough that they were afraid they might get hit by one of his pitches.


Well that and that he liked to throw inside and could be pretty ornery too. This is a man who once said that "It helps if the hitters think you're a little crazy."
He threw hard as hell, was wild all over the place and would come high and inside a batter in a heartbeat. That's a combination that leaves grown men sweating to the tune of a lifetime .200 batting average against, 2nd only to Herb Score. That he never hit a ton of people is less a comment on his pitching in or the lack thereof and much more a statement that hitters didn't dig in deep against him. He knew he frightened hitters and took full advantage of it.

"Nolan Ryan is no angel," said California manager Buck Rodgers. "He's a hard-nosed, knock-you-on-your-ass type of pitcher.

Think Clemens approach and you're pretty close to the man.
   30. Rob_Wood Posted: June 23, 2014 at 05:07 PM (#4733918)
Jimmy Piersall ran the bases backwards (I don't mean going from third-to-second-to-first) when he hit his 100th home run. It was in response to teammate Duke Snider's 400th home run a little while earlier not getting much press. Piersall told Duke, just wait till I hit my 100th, it will be headlines!
   31. Walt Davis Posted: June 23, 2014 at 06:25 PM (#4734016)
When's the last time a MLer played all nine positions? That's probably the last time anybody had fun at the ballpark.

Heck, they probably don't even give hotfoots anymore. Of course that requires a book of matches -- do those even exist anymore?

The big joke now is probably emailing Joe Girardi a link to "video of flaw in Trout's swing" but it links to a photo of Madeleine Albright.
   32. Batman Posted: June 23, 2014 at 06:35 PM (#4734021)
Shane Halter had fun in this game.
   33. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: June 23, 2014 at 10:35 PM (#4734106)
Not actually a game, but Tampa just let a 17 year old female knuckleballer have a go at batting practice...that's pretty cool and really fun.
   34. bobm Posted: June 23, 2014 at 11:21 PM (#4734124)
From 1914 to 2014, Played at least: P, C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, LF, CF and RF

                                                                            
Rk            Player       Date  Tm Opp    Rslt PA                PosSummary
1       Shane Halter 2000-10-01 DET MIN W 12-11  5 SS C  2B CF 3B RF LF 1B P
2      Scott Sheldon 2000-09-06 TEX CHW L  1-13  2 SS C  2B CF 3B RF LF 1B P
3        Cesar Tovar 1968-09-22 MIN OAK  W  2-1  4 SS C  2B CF 3B RF LF 1B P
4    Bert Campaneris 1965-09-08 KCA CAL  L  3-5  4 SS C  2B CF 3B RF LF 1B P


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 6/23/2014.
   35. greenback calls it soccer Posted: June 23, 2014 at 11:34 PM (#4734134)
Bobby Bonilla was used as a pitcher in a Cardinals game in 2001. That in and of itself was funny, but the scoreboard radar gun readings were up to 99, which was somebody's idea of a pretty good joke.

ETA: Also the Mets will be paying Bobby Bonilla until 2078.
   36. Walt Davis Posted: June 24, 2014 at 02:51 AM (#4734161)
That's a combination that leaves grown men sweating to the tune of a lifetime .200 batting average against

While obviously the two aren't independent, the low BA is primarily a function of the Ks. I can't find the league average K/AB for his career so I grabbed 1978 AL as a guesstimate (about 1 per 7.5 AB). If he K'd guys at the league rate, he'd have K'd 3200 fewer guys. If he proceeded to give up hits at the same rate per non-K AB, the overall BA against goes up to 251. We do have that league number for his career on b-r and it was 256 for the league across his MLB career.

OK, that might be a bad year. I checked 74 AL, 82 NL (I think, 83? somewhere in there) and 86 NL and 1978 AL was pretty easily the lowest K/AB of the bunch. Of course you get pitchers in the NL (I'm sure they were afraid). If you peg the league K/AB at about 15.5% (roughly the average of those 4 years) then the league hit about 303 on-contact during Ryan's career. That's consistent with the BABIP gap of 13 points that b-r does report. So guesstimate league on-contact BA/SLG at 303/455. Ryan was at 289/424.

That's a big difference in Ryan's favor but compare that difference to the one from the overall numbers of 256/381 for league and 200/298 for Ryan (and those league numbers are correct) and I think the conclusion is that the main effect is due to a K-rate that was at least twice the league, not "fear."

By the way, Score's on-contact numbers were 274/437.

And a nitpick. If we're going to count Score (only 858 IP career) that brings the modern relievers into the mix. Wagner had a 187 BA against so he's the career leader although Score probably beats him on-contact. Joe Nathan is at 204, same as Ryan, with K-Rod (and Koufax) just behind at 205. Mariano, Hoffman and 70s reliever Tom Hall (and Kershaw) are at 211. I don't think anybody feared Rivera or Hoffman but K'ing more than 9/9 helped keep the BA nice and low.

In terms of longevity, obviously Ryan blows away everybody on this list. The next guy with at least 3000 IP is the Unit at 221.

Among guys with at least 800 IP and at least 9 K/9, there are only 17. The worst overall BAs are all modern guys -- Lincecum at 233, Scherzer/Liriano/Ollie Perez at 243-244.

Among guys with a K/9 less than 7, Messersmith leads with a 212. His on-contact numbers look nuts -- 265/399. Dodgers stadium or no, that seems awfully good. He averaged less than 7 H/9, the all-time leader among guys with <7 K/9 and 800 IP. Expand it to 9 K/9 and he only falls to 5th (Score, Fernandez, Richard and Hall) -- fewer H/9 than Mariano. Bring in everybody and he does drop to 11 (Wagner at 5.99).
   37. vortex of dissipation Posted: June 24, 2014 at 03:52 AM (#4734168)
How about Lou Piniella letting Randy Johnson play left field for the ninth inning in the last game of the season in 1993?
   38. Scott Lange Posted: June 24, 2014 at 08:49 AM (#4734196)
Jimmy Piersall ran the bases backwards (I don't mean going from third-to-second-to-first) when he hit his 100th home run.


I've heard this anecdote many, many times in my life, and only now do I understand why he wasn't called out (I've always assumed "running the bases backwards" meant third-second-first.")
   39. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: June 24, 2014 at 09:06 AM (#4734204)
I thought that Steve Lyons played every position in a single game for the White Sox?
   40. Batman Posted: June 24, 2014 at 09:29 AM (#4734221)
I thought that Steve Lyons played every position in a single game for the White Sox?
It was one of their pre-interleague-play exhibitions against the Cubs. Michael Jordan played in one of those too.
   41. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 24, 2014 at 10:46 AM (#4734276)
Lyons also dropped trou during a game, IIRC. Was that during the regular season?
   42. AROM, Instagram Gangsta Posted: June 24, 2014 at 10:52 AM (#4734281)
I will stipulate that no pitcher was ever as feared by opposing hitters as Nolan Ryan. I think that's hard to make an argument against.


Probably for righties. I don't think anyone scared more lefties than Randy Johnson.
   43. haggard Posted: June 24, 2014 at 11:14 AM (#4734298)
I've never formally written out a First Ten Things I'd Do With a Time Machine, but I'm pretty sure one of the ten would be "bring Rabbit Maranville to 2014 and turn him loose."

That might be the saddest thing I've ever read.
   44. Moeball Posted: June 24, 2014 at 11:50 AM (#4734321)
Was the game where Ryan pitched the no-hitter against Detroit the game where Norm Cash brought a table leg out to the plate because he said ordinary bats were useless?


So, not being old enough to remember this, I immediately thought "that has to be apocryphal." But no, YouTube has actual footage.

My favorite part of the video is the ump - he leans over to take a close look at what Cash is holding and then turns away, doubling over with laughter.

It was only AA, but there's Dave Bresnahan and the potato from 1987.


I couldn't believe it - an entire article about a catcher named Bresnahan and not one mention of whether he's related or not to HOF catcher Roger Bresnahan?

I've never formally written out a First Ten Things I'd Do With a Time Machine, but I'm pretty sure one of the ten would be "bring Rabbit Maranville to 2014 and turn him loose."


The Rabbit died.
   45. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 24, 2014 at 12:41 PM (#4734371)
That might be the saddest thing I've ever read.


Don't worry, killing Hitler is on the list too.
   46. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 24, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4734378)
My favorite part of the video is the ump - he leans over to take a close look at what Cash is holding and then turns away, doubling over with laughter.

that's Luciano
   47. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 24, 2014 at 01:16 PM (#4734413)
Don't worry, killing Hitler is on the list too.


Unintended consequence: Marge Schott still owns the Reds.

EDIT: Wait, she's dead. Nevermind.
   48. SandyRiver Posted: June 24, 2014 at 03:57 PM (#4734700)
I will stipulate that no pitcher was ever as feared by opposing hitters as Nolan Ryan. I think that's hard to make an argument against.


Against righties, Drysdale was up there, too - 6'6" sidewinder with good control, which only meant he could pinpoint how close a shave the batter would get. Of course, Ryan's "control" terrorized batters from each side.
   49. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 24, 2014 at 04:40 PM (#4734745)
I will stipulate that no pitcher was ever as feared by opposing hitters as Nolan Ryan. I think that's hard to make an argument against.


Carl Mays.

What, too soon?
   50. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: June 24, 2014 at 06:14 PM (#4734831)
Unintended consequence: Marge Schott still owns the Reds.

EDIT: Wait, she's dead. Nevermind.


In the alternate timeline in which Hitler is killed, cyborg technology is invented and Schott lives 300 years.
   51. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: June 24, 2014 at 06:58 PM (#4734855)
Will you people please stop killing Hitler and ultimately setting up the Doomsday War of 1971? I've had to fix the effing timeline three times this week already! Now, knock it off!
   52. McCoy Posted: June 24, 2014 at 08:01 PM (#4734903)
Are you the Yellow Card Man?
   53. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: June 24, 2014 at 08:34 PM (#4734918)
Strikeout! Kershaw is 26 outs away from a Johnny Vander Meer

EDIT: wow, lasted about 10 seconds

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