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Thursday, July 28, 2011

Rasmus’ dad blasts Tony La Russa

“Colby Rasmus family blames Cards manager for trade”

Tony Rasmus didn’t throw the first stone, but he was firing back.

In June of 2010 the father visited his son in St. Louis and worked on hitting: “We didn’t do anything serious. Colby told Tony about it. After last June that was the end of that,” said Tony Rasmus, who said four weeks ago the Cards and Colby were involved in talks on a four-year deal.

“Evidently Tony (La Russa) has absolutely made that stuff up. He’s got it on the brain. If I was working with my son I’d tell people.

“Tony needed pitching and wanted to force the GM into making a trade, so he belittled Colby to the fans.”

...“Tony would like to have 25 pitchers,” Tony Rasmus said, “like he thinks he has to put his stamp on every ball game. They had nothing else to trade. I think everyone is better off now.”

Thanks to Chet.

Repoz Posted: July 28, 2011 at 03:23 PM | 140 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blue jays, cardinals

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   1. Shredder Posted: July 28, 2011 at 03:36 PM (#3887548)
I sympathize with Cardinals fans (I'm surrounded by plenty) who are torn between wanting a manager that wins, and a manager that isn't a total dick. Makes me realize how lucky the Angels are to have Scioscia. I know fans of other teams may hate him, but Angels fans love him, and he's never run good, valuable players out of town (Edmonds was dealt before ever playing for Scioscia).
   2. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: July 28, 2011 at 03:48 PM (#3887566)
Shredder, who hates Scioscia? That's news to me.
   3. J. Sosa Posted: July 28, 2011 at 03:48 PM (#3887567)
Ill advised comments by the Dad, but I can't say that I disagree with the sentiments all that much.
   4. Shredder Posted: July 28, 2011 at 03:52 PM (#3887571)
Shredder, who hates Scioscia? That's news to me.
Maybe it's heat of the moment stuff, but if you check other AL West teams game threads, or read them right after games, they hate the way he argues balls and strikes and that sort of stuff. He does tend to work the umps more than other managers, or at least that's the sense I got. If you watch a lot of Angels games, you'll see the camera pan to him quite often after a really awful ball/strike call.
   5. Joey B. is being stalked by a (Gonfa) loon Posted: July 28, 2011 at 03:56 PM (#3887575)
“There are three or four guys in the St. Louis clubhouse right now, thinking ‘oh-oh, who is the manager going to pick on next with Colby gone?’”

This. I imagine Rasmus must feel like the luckiest man on the face of the earth today to be far away from that egomaniacal douche.
   6. SoCalDemon Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:00 PM (#3887581)
As an A's fan, I hate Scoscia because he is really, really damn good. I don't think a team goes 10 games over pythag through luck three years in a row by accident. And Jaffe's book backed that up; I think he graded out as the best short-career manager, more or less.
   7. SoSH U at work Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:08 PM (#3887595)
“There are three or four guys in the St. Louis clubhouse right now, thinking ‘oh-oh, who is the manager going to pick on next with Colby gone?’”


This. I imagine Rasmus must feel like the luckiest man on the face of the earth today to be far away from that egomaniacal douche.

Or, there are 20 or so guys thinking, "He was a pretty good player, but I'm kind of glad that ####### and his insufferable old man are gone."

I dislike TLR as much, or more, than the next guy. But it really is more than possible that the Rasmii share some culpability here. I kind of doubt Tony picks out a guy to feud with simply for sport. And, as irritating as I find him, his track record of taking his'n and beating your'n is pretty much undeniable.
   8. Anonymous Observer Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:10 PM (#3887600)
This trade really bums me out. I remember seeing Rasmus play for Springfield when they would pass through Frisco and I would think, "He's going to be really good. I can't wait until he makes it up to St. Louis."

Really though, I think that this is the best thing that could have happened for Rasmus. I don't think he would have ever lived up to his potential with the Cardinals. At least, not as long as TLR is the manager. I'd really like to see him start destroying the baseball.

And even though he hasn't been as good as advertised; Edwin Jackson? Really?
   9. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:11 PM (#3887601)
I'm glad TLR isn't my boss, and I'm glad Tony Rasmus isn't my dad.
   10. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:19 PM (#3887605)
I kind of doubt Tony picks out a guy to feud with simply for sport.


It's more of a sacrifice than a sport, to ensure that next year's harvest is strong.
   11. Accent Shallow Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:20 PM (#3887607)
I know fans of other teams may hate him, but Angels fa him, and he's never run good, valuable players out of town (Edmonds was dealt bef ever playing for Scioscia).

Mike Napoli wants to subscribe to your newsletter.
   12. Jay Seaver Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:21 PM (#3887609)
If you watch a lot of Angels games, you'll see the camera pan to him quite often after a really awful ball/strike call.

You'll also see the camera cut to him after a perfectly innocuous call that didn't go his way. His act is really, really annoying.
   13. Mark Armour Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:26 PM (#3887618)
I don't really see how Rasmus's father needs to be believed here. There are an awful lot of players who played for Tony LaRussa who loved him. The Cardinals have always been a team that seems to get guys to sign there that you would not expect, and I suspect LaRussa is one of the reasons why. I'd play for him.
   14. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:30 PM (#3887624)
“Tony would like to have 25 pitchers,” Tony Rasmus said, “like he thinks he has to put his stamp on every ball game.”


Regardless of anything else, that's a great quote. (And 100% true, too.)
   15. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:32 PM (#3887630)
There are an awful lot of players who played for Tony LaRussa who loved him.


Two words: Stockholm Syndrome.
   16. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:34 PM (#3887635)
I kind of doubt Tony picks out a guy to feud with simply for sport. And, as irritating as I find him, his track record of taking his'n and beating your'n is pretty much undeniable.


I find his track record also indicates that he does in fact pick out a guy to feud with, does he he do it for "sport," I dunno. Does he do it for any reason other than the fact that he's a douche, again I don't know.

TLR is the only manager I actually root against, well him and Jim Tracy.
   17. RJ in TO Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:37 PM (#3887639)
I'm trying to think of other players that LaRussa has feuded with. I know he had the much publicized one with Rolen, and didn't seem to much like Brendan Ryan (although he did give him a goodly amount of PT), and I'm assuming he wasn't a big fan of Drew, but I'm not sure who else was notably on his #### list.
   18. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:38 PM (#3887641)
There are an awful lot of players who played for Tony LaRussa who loved him.
So what there are an awful lot of guys who played for Booby Knight who loved him too, and Knight may be the biggest douche in the world of sports.
   19. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:44 PM (#3887644)
I know fans of other teams may hate him, but Angels fa him, and he's never run good, valuable players out of town (Edmonds was dealt bef ever playing for Scioscia).

Mike Napoli wants to subscribe to your newsletter.


My first impulse was to say Napoli as well, but I don't think it's the same parallel. As far as I know, Scioscia didn't hate Napoli personally, he just thought his defense sucked and undervalued his bat. TLR seems to really hate Ramus on a personal level due to his dad.
   20. cardsfanboy Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:46 PM (#3887646)
Or, there are 20 or so guys thinking, "He was a pretty good player, but I'm kind of glad that ####### and his insufferable old man are gone."


this. Several of the star players are glad to see Rasmus gone(Pujols and Carpenter most notably)

I hate the trade, and contrary to rumors, we are still stuck with Tony Rasmus as we have his other son in the minors.

I don't think people realize how bad Colby's dad has been, he's been on message boards badmouthing TLR when Colby was hitting, and promptly Colby went into a slump. Before the season started Colby's dad was going on boards talking about how the Cardinals want to turn his son into a slap hitter(The Cardinals were trying to teach him to go the other way, not how to be a slap hitter)
   21. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:49 PM (#3887648)
I'm no fan of LaRussa's, but Rasmus' dad is probably irate because he's going to have to relocate in order to continue rocking his baby boy to sleep every night.
   22. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:52 PM (#3887650)
I hate the trade, and contrary to rumors, we are still stuck with Tony Rasmus as we have his other son in the minors.


36th round pick, what was that about? Was that a bribe to get Tony Rasmus to shut up?
   23. cardsfanboy Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:53 PM (#3887651)
I'm trying to think of other players that LaRussa has feuded with. I know he had the much publicized one with Rolen, and didn't seem to much like Brendan Ryan (although he did give him a goodly amount of PT), and I'm assuming he wasn't a big fan of Drew, but I'm not sure who else was notably on his #### list.


Ozzie Smith...he told Ozzie that there would be a competition for shortstop between him and Royce Clayton, then he went and handed Clayton the job.
Brian Jordan...just rubbed each other the wrong way.
Ron Gant who claimed it was racism...but both Ozzie and Brian Jordan defended TLR against that charge.
Kerry Robinson, basically because Kerry thought he should be starting and for some reason TLR didn't think that was his role.
JD Drew, TLR first told Drew if he's hurt to take himself out of the lineup, then had to tell Drew that day to day pains isn't the same thing as being hurt... also said that between him and Eli Marerro they have one full brain.
Brendan Ryan who the players had a party for after he left (several players felt he was a distraction because he showed up late, didn't practice as hard, had a less serious personality type of thing)

Some people think he had problems with John Rodriguez because he wouldn't play him all the time, and a couple of comments, but I don't think there was anything to that.

He has had day to day problems with a few players like Lankford, Kline, Tavarez etc. but that is one of those heat of the moments thing and not really indicative of anything other than intensity.
   24. cardsfanboy Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:54 PM (#3887653)
36th round pick, what was that about? Was that a bribe to get Tony Rasmus to shut up?


Some people say yes. But in a small sample size he's not overwhelmed in the minors so far.
   25. Guapo Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:55 PM (#3887655)
Although a year ago it didn’t bother Colby much: 28 doubles, three triples, 23 homers, 66 RBIs, and a .859 OPS which ranked behind Carl Crawford, Andre Ethier and Ryan Braun amongst outfielders last season.


This is a very weird sentence. First of all, Rasmus' .859 OPS placed him 10th among outfielders last season. Second, Crawford (.851) and Ethier (.857) each had a *lower* OPS than Rasmus.
   26. SoSH U at work Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:55 PM (#3887657)
So what there are an awful lot of guys who played for Booby Knight who loved him too, and Knight may be the biggest douche in the world of sports.


I don't have any disagreement that Tony is a douche (just as his good pal Bobby is). What I doubt, and what you've done nothing to disprove, is that Colby Rasmus was just an a victim of TLR's random targeting (as Colby's dad suggested), or that TLR actively seeks out players to feud with. Knight, for one, sure as hell didn't do that.

It doesn't excuse Tony not being able to get along with Rasmus. That's on Tony. But regardless how I feel about TLR, I find it damn near impossible to believe that Rasmus (and dad) isn't partly at fault for the feud.
   27. ColonelTom Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:56 PM (#3887658)
Mike Napoli wants to subscribe to your newsletter.

I never got the impression Napoli's situation with Scioscia was personal, or that Napoli perceived it as such. Scioscia values defense behind the plate and situational hitting probably more than he should, and he certainly underused Napoli. But I wouldn't classify that as running Napoli out of town.
   28. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: July 28, 2011 at 04:57 PM (#3887660)
I'm trying to think of other players that LaRussa has feuded with.

Ron Gant is another example.
   29. phredbird Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:01 PM (#3887662)
Rasmii


awesome.
   30. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:02 PM (#3887665)
But regardless how I feel about TLR, I find it damn near impossible to believe that Rasmus (and dad) isn't partly at fault for the feud.


So, I never defended Tony Rasmus, doesn't seem like he's doing his son any good either
   31. carpenoctem Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:03 PM (#3887666)
Kerry Robinson, basically because Kerry thought he should be starting and for some reason TLR didn't think that was his role.

Probably because he's Kerry ".640 OPS" Robinson.
   32. phredbird Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:04 PM (#3887669)
TLR is the only manager I actually root against, well him and Jim Tracy.


you can't possibly have neutral feelings towards dusty baker.
   33. Dave Spiwak Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:04 PM (#3887670)
Before the season started Colby's dad was going on boards talking about how the Cardinals want to turn his son into a slap hitter(The Cardinals were trying to teach him to go the other way, not how to be a slap hitter)


The Blue Jays are definitely OK with pull hitters.
   34. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:04 PM (#3887672)
that TLR actively seeks out players to feud with. Knight, for one, sure as hell didn't do that.

That guy he choked at Indiana might have a different take.
   35. Boileryard Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:04 PM (#3887671)
Tony Rasmus was interviewed on the Fan 590 in Toronto this morning. He made comments similar to the ones in the article posted above, but it was still interesting to listen to.
   36. phredbird Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:10 PM (#3887679)
I'm not sure who else was notably on his #### list.


i believe ray lankford called him a racist after leaving st. louis, though lankford came back to the team at the end of his career. tony also had a big run in with ozzie smith that caused a lot of hard feelings all around. in this one, i think it was TLR feeling like ozzie was done and wanted to get a successor in. unfortunately he settled on ... ulp ... royce clayton.
   37. Mark Armour Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:13 PM (#3887685)
LaRussa has managed for more than 30 years, and is most known for (a) getting along with his bosses, (b) getting guys to play hard for him, and (c) winning. His record for getting along with his players seems pretty good when compared with other long term managers. The fact that people on the internet (or Mr. Rasmus) don't like some of his locker room quotes is interesting, but not really something I will use to evaluate his career going forward. In fact, LaRussa driving people crazy on the internet helps his case for me.
   38. phredbird Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:13 PM (#3887686)
sorry cfb i think you had it right about gant / lankford. its been a while ...
   39. cardsfanboy Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:15 PM (#3887687)
Probably because he's Kerry ".640 OPS" Robinson.


agreed, just pointing out guys that I remembered him having problems with and what little I could remember of the reasoning.

Of course TLR also has his pet players that the fans wish he would just hurry up and get a room to get it out of his system. Craig Paquette, Roger Cedeno, Scott Spiezio, Joe McEwing(actually fans loved him), Shawon Dunston, Miguel Cairo, So Taguchi etc.

of course he also didn't get along with Tino Martinez who he was the one who recruited him to play for the Cardinals. Can't remember the full story there other than the fans really hated Tino, so that couldn't have helped.
   40. PreservedFish Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:15 PM (#3887688)
Although a year ago it didn’t bother Colby much: 28 doubles, three triples, 23 homers, 66 RBIs, and a .859 OPS which ranked behind Carl Crawford, Andre Ethier and Ryan Braun amongst outfielders last season.



This is a very weird sentence. First of all, Rasmus' .859 OPS placed him 10th among outfielders last season. Second, Crawford (.851) and Ethier (.857) each had a *lower* OPS than Rasmus.


Perhaps he was adding all five statistics together. Rasmus had 979 points, Crawford 1,002, Ethier 996.
   41. SoSH U at work Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:17 PM (#3887689)
That guy he choked at Indiana might have a different take.


Neil Reed. But even he shouldn't have a different take. Knight didn't look for guys on his team to feud with (I did cover the team for three years), though he did find his share along the way.

On the other hand, he did target the rather innocuous beat writer from the Indianapolis Star in a most unkind way, the product of his dislike for the paper's main columnists.
   42. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:20 PM (#3887693)
that TLR actively seeks out players to feud with. Knight, for one, sure as hell didn't do that.

That guy he choked at Indiana might have a different take.


Knight abused everyone except the scrubs, he started with the stars and went on down- he more or less has admitted this- he saw it as a team motivating trick, he said that if a starter screwed up he'd give him hell- for screwing up and to let the rest of the team see that you wouldn't get better treatment by virtue of being a star (many college coaches suck up to stars- the rules don't apply to stars etc)- abusing scrubs was pointless in his eyes.

In many ways Knight's BS was very calculated- but he did have an anger problem that cost him his job at West Point and has been attested to by various school employees throughout the years (for one thing engaging in small talk with him is dangerous- you never know when he might take something the wrong way).

Pretty much the only admirable things about him would be that he didn't suck up to star players and seemed to believe that student athletes really are students and should learn something and graduate with diplomas (unlike many of his peers)
   43. cardsfanboy Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:21 PM (#3887694)
sorry cfb i think you had it right about gant / lankford. its been a while ...

From what I remember the problem with Lankford was a bit of favoritism type of thing he and McGwire got into a fight during a game and Lankford was having problems going from a full time starter to a platoon guy(he was also having personal issues at home which probably wasn't helping his mood at the time)
   44. Ben V-L Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:21 PM (#3887695)
The Lankford issues were bigger than "day to day problems". TLR couldn't stand Lankford's strikeout rate, which he was very open about in the media, and he played scrubs like McGee (the 40-year old McGee with the 45 OPS+), Thomas Howard, Shawon Dunston, and Craig Paquette in Lankford's place.
   45. phredbird Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:23 PM (#3887696)
Shawon Dunston, Miguel Cairo, So Taguchi etc.


*throws up*

Can't remember the full story there other than the fans really hated Tino


oh, what's not to like about tino 'pop-up-with-runners-in-scoring-position' martinez?
   46. phredbird Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:23 PM (#3887697)
sorry double post
   47. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:24 PM (#3887698)
LaRussa has managed for more than 30 years, and is most known for (a) getting along with his bosses, (b) getting guys to play hard for him, and (c) winning.


no, (a) should be: making all of baseball aesthetically worse by his oversized bullpens and micro-management of same.
personally I'd like a couple of rules to stamp out LaRussaism- no more than 10 pitchers on the active roster at any one time- and all pitchers must face at least 2 batters
   48. DCW3 Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:25 PM (#3887701)
Over the past four seasons, the Cardinals have traded away four very talented players for not a great return, just because La Russa couldn't get along with them: Scott Rolen, Anthony Reyes (this one didn't work out too badly, but just because Reyes blew out his arm--the Cardinals got nothing in return for him), Brendan Ryan and Colby Rasmus. (You could maybe throw Chris Perez in there, as La Russa and Duncan clearly disliked him, but that seems like more of a good old-fashioned crappy trade.) Now, this happens to other teams sometimes (Yunel Escobar), but it just doesn't seem like any other team has this happen over and over again, and I'm getting pretty tired of it. And I think that Tony Rasmus is probably right about one thing, that with Colby gone, La Russa is just going to move onto some other guy--I'm afraid it's going to be Allen Craig.
   49. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:31 PM (#3887704)
Neither Neil Reed nor his father wanted anything to do with the story as of 2006

Knight pulled too hard on the jersey of a player named Jim Wisman when chewing him out in 1976 (?), during a game, which also got people all upset.
   50. Spivey Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:39 PM (#3887708)
Bobby Knight is probably the best basketball announcer, or at the very least, the best college basketball announcer, on television right now. That show he had on ESPN abuot finding a walk-on was pretty good too. All in all, he was obviously a red ass and a hard ass, and I'm sure hanging out with him would wear on you, but he's just about the most knowledgeable person about basketball that ever lived. And he seems to have a decent sense of humor when working with Musburger on those games.
   51. Dag Nabbit: secretary of the World Banana Forum Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:42 PM (#3887711)
And even though he hasn't been as good as advertised; Edwin Jackson? Really?

Jackson's a weird pitcher in that he'll have stretches of brilliance, but then never put it together for too long. Maybe Dave Duncan can help him out. Lord knows he has a track record getting quality work from veteran starters. That said, I thought the same thing about White Sox pitching coach Don Cooper.

I hate the trade,

Well, don't let it ruin your birthday, cfb.
   52. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:46 PM (#3887715)

Pretty much the only admirable things about him would be that he didn't suck up to star players and seemed to believe that student athletes really are students and should learn something and graduate with diplomas (unlike many of his peers)


There's also the fact that he won a metric buttload of basketball games.

It seems to me that there are two things that people would want out of a college basketball coach: He should get his teams to win, and he should get his players to go to class and actually graduate. Bobby Knight was extremely good at both of these things, which you'd think would make him the most-respected coach in college basketball.... but he was so phenomenally terrible at everything else, he made people hate him anyway.
   53. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:48 PM (#3887716)
I'm glad TLR isn't my boss, and I'm glad Tony Rasmus isn't my dad.
Yes ... though TLR is good at managing teams and the elder Rasmus has done a good job of making ballplayers (he has two other kids in the minors).
[Note: I've had exchanges with the dad more than once on various boards, though not about his kid.]
   54. flournoy Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:49 PM (#3887718)
Tony Rasmus is embarrassing. Colby is an adult now. Let him do the interviews. When the writers call Tony, he should just decline to comment on his son's business and leave it at that.
   55. Matthew E Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:49 PM (#3887719)
I'm trying to think of other players that LaRussa has feuded with.


Ruben Sierra, of course.
   56. phredbird Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:50 PM (#3887720)
when i'm feeling emotional about the cards -- which is a lot -- i tend to think along the lines of post 48.

fandom is a #####.
   57. SoSH U at work Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:52 PM (#3887721)
Neither Neil Reed nor his father wanted anything to do with the story as of 2006


That was good, particularly if it was written by someone who was not even in high school when the Reed mess was happening. I always felt the way his teammates turned on and scapegoated Reed for EVERYTHING that went wrong with IU basketball during and after his time there was pretty damn sorry.

Bobby Knight is probably the best basketball announcer, or at the very least, the best college basketball announcer, on television right now. That show he had on ESPN abuot finding a walk-on was pretty good too. All in all, he was obviously a red ass and a hard ass, and I'm sure hanging out with him would wear on you, but he's just about the most knowledgeable person about basketball that ever lived. And he seems to have a decent sense of humor when working with Musburger on those games.


We'd get the glimpses of this in postgame press conferences. Every once in a while (usually if there was a bigger national media presence) he'd just go on about basketball in a way that no other coach could/would. And the thing that I always enjoyed was the way that, rather than simply paying lip service to the other team ("You have to give them credit," then doing nothing of the kind), he'd pick out two or three things that the opponent really did well and why it gave his team problems. It was fascinating stuff.

About 1/3 of the time.

The other 2/3 he would either blow us off entirely, or be thoroughly combative and frequently insulting (and not just to us, but anyone who happened to strike a nerve) during the brief amount of time he gave us.
   58. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:53 PM (#3887722)
Bobby Knight is probably the best basketball announcer, or at the very least, the best college basketball announcer, on television right now.


This is incredibly wrong. (And already hashed out in an earlier thread.)
   59. cardsfanboy Posted: July 28, 2011 at 05:58 PM (#3887725)
Over the past four seasons, the Cardinals have traded away four very talented players for not a great return, just because La Russa couldn't get along with them: Scott Rolen, Anthony Reyes (this one didn't work out too badly, but just because Reyes blew out his arm--the Cardinals got nothing in return for him), Brendan Ryan and Colby Rasmus. (You could maybe throw Chris Perez in there, as La Russa and Duncan clearly disliked him, but that seems like more of a good old-fashioned crappy trade.) Now, this happens to other teams sometimes (Yunel Escobar), but it just doesn't seem like any other team has this happen over and over again, and I'm getting pretty tired of it. And I think that Tony Rasmus is probably right about one thing, that with Colby gone, La Russa is just going to move onto some other guy--I'm afraid it's going to be Allen Craig.


I think you might be right, TLR made comments about Craigs eventual return which was basically "he'll be back, when he is back" indicating that he isn't in a hurry to get him back on the roster.

Damn, I had a long response post and it got ate up, here it goes again.

I do not agree that TLR had an issue with Perez, It was either Perez or Motte were going to be traded and the thought process was that Motte was more raw and had higher potential.

The Rolen thing was two bull headed strong willed individuals going at each other. Rolen refused to accept that he was injured and wanted to play through it insisting he wasn't hurt while not being able to drive the ball with authority, TLR would give him a day off and it would seem that he could hit the ball harder with rest. Rolen didn't feel he needed time off. (one of my favorite baseball mementos I've seen is at a bar in Milwaukee called Fourth Base that has a wine bottle signed by Rolen and TLR) Even with their deteriorating relationship, they managed to work through it for a full season, it wasn't like Rolen was traded the day after TLR and him got into a fight.

Brendan Ryan was disliked by a large portion of the team, they basically had a party after he left. He is a non-serious player, he shows up late for practice, doesn't practice as intently, didn't pay attention in the meetings so the players didn't think he was taking his job seriously enough. This trade was instigated by TLR, but there was almost no one in the locker room who had a problem with the trade. I was upset about it because I think that Ryan could carve out a nice little Jack Wilson career(with even better defense).

It's possible this is a St Louis thing, managers driving off players. Whitey Herzog traded away Gary Templeton, Ted Simmons and Keith Hernandez who he didn't get along with, mind you in his telling of the story he's fully justified, but it still doesn't change the fact that he has had issues with front line talent... Two out of the three best managers in St Louis history seems to have been arrogant jerks with the my way or the highway approach.
   60. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:03 PM (#3887728)
It seems to me that there are two things that people would want out of a college basketball coach: He should get his teams to win, and he should get his players to go to class and actually graduate. Bobby Knight was extremely good at both of these things, which you'd think would make him the most-respected coach in college basketball.... but he was so phenomenally terrible at everything else, he made people hate him anyway.

Well ... yes, but I don't think "people" hate him (at least in the sense I sense you're using the word). Factions of people hate him.

I think as college basketball became more and more of a made-for-TV circus and money grab, getting players to go to class and graduate became less and less important, irrespective of whatever lip service was paid. More importantly, with society's increasing solipsism, the idea of being pushed to become better than you think you can be, by someone other than yourself in a way that doesn't placate your immediate whims, fell into general disrepute. That's what got Knight in the end.
   61. cardsfanboy Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:03 PM (#3887729)
Well, don't let it ruin your birthday, cfb.


I won't, I'll get to go watch Captain America(I'm a huge Captain America fan have been putting off seeing the movie until today---I have every single Captain America comic since 1986, and am afraid this movie was going to screw it up as much as the last attempt did---The Red Skull in the last movie was an Italian mobster---reviews seem to indicate I'm pretty safe, to bad that can't be said about The Rise of the Planet of The Apes )
   62. Ben V-L Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:06 PM (#3887731)
Don't agree on the Whitey/TLR comparison. I'm not a super fan or super critic of either, though I'll admit that I didn't find Whitey as unlikeable as TLR. The only one of those moves (Templeton, Simmons, Hernandez) that smells like a TLR move is the Simmons one. Whitey had a strong opinion that Simmons couldn't play defense and throw out runners (the latter has been proven untrue by Bill Deane) and he wanted his man Porter from KC. So he ditched Simmons and got Porter.

Hernandez was an in-your-face drug user. Turned out that he could play pretty well along with his cocaine habit, but I can't fault a manager for being suspicious or concerned about the impact of his drug use. Trading Templeton was Whitey at his best: assessing the talent (or lack of it) better than anyone else and reaping the benefits.
   63. Spivey Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:06 PM (#3887732)
This is incredibly wrong. (And already hashed out in an earlier thread.)

Who is better? Or where is the link?
   64. phredbird Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:19 PM (#3887741)
Gary Templeton, Ted Simmons and Keith Hernandez


i can sympathize with 2/3 of this. but all three were about who was going to be in control of the team. some of it not so important; i mean, herzog mostly lost it with templeton over the bird flipping incident, so it was about image, but it converged nicely with whitey wanting to go with defense at the position. the simmons thing was about controlling the leadership of the team, which was very much important, rightly or wrongly. personally i wish he would have found a way to get along with simmons. with hernandez he wanted to send a message -- its simplistic to say he wasn't going to stand for coke in the clubhouse but i think the larger message was that if you were doing something he didn't like that he felt could have a negative impact on the team's productivity, you were gone, no matter who you were.
whitey, like all good managers, could be a cold manipulative b@stard when he needed to be. tis one of the tools.
   65. Spahn Insane Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:24 PM (#3887747)
Probably because he's Kerry ".640 OPS" Robinson.

Also known as "Mark Prior didn't dominate me" Robinson.
   66. Andere Richtingen Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:27 PM (#3887750)
LaRussa went on a rabid kvetching campaign his last year in Oakland. It wasn't just Ruben Sierra, it was Jason Giambi and Rickey Henderson too, not to mention Jose Canseco who had been gone for a few years. Also, any player on any team who dared to cross him, and the fans as well. He was constantly ######## about something, and it became quite apparent that his expiration date as manager had long passed.
   67. hardrain Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:28 PM (#3887751)
That's weird --My dad hates Tony LaRussa too.
   68. Shredder Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:37 PM (#3887757)
My first impulse was to say Napoli as well, but I don't think it's the same parallel. As far as I know, Scioscia didn't hate Napoli personally, he just thought his defense sucked and undervalued his bat. TLR seems to really hate Ramus on a personal level due to his dad.
This would be my take as well.
   69. cardsfanboy Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:38 PM (#3887758)
Of course Whitey's boy was also a coke head pretending to be a born again Christian... Again I have read Whitey's point of view on the issue, but I don't see why we take Whitey's word as gospel and not TLR's when Whitey has proven by every single comment he's ever made that he's an even bigger arrogant sonovabitch. He coudn't get along with Charlie Lau, he wants full credit for every good year that Willie Wilson had(those are the years he listened to Whitey) and wants to foster Willie's bad years on him being headstrong and not listening....sounds very much like a TLR style comment in regards to say Colby or Anthony Reyes.


I'm not saying that they are the same person, just that anyone who knows the history of a franchise could probably, if they want, point to manager player issues that could be spinned into the manager being a control freak(on another thread I pointed out the opposite that happens when you let your players take over you get Bagwell and Biggio forcing the team to reaquire Ausmus and keep signing him...sometimes a manager needs to tell the star players to sit the heck down)

Whitey Herzog, Billy Martin and probably dozens of other managers in baseball history have multiple players they have had issues with. If you are Herzog, LaRussa etc you get your way, if you are Vern Rapp, you get fired.
   70. SouthSideRyan Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:38 PM (#3887759)
Knight on multiple occassions last year suggested a team miss a FT on purpose while up by 3 with a couple seconds left.
   71. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:42 PM (#3887763)
That's what got Knight in the end.

No being an arrogant hothead is what got Knight in the end.
   72. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:48 PM (#3887771)
Knight/announcer:
I looked for the thread, didn't find it. Think that has more to do with our poor searchability than me.

I think Knight has moments where he's great as an announcer. Athletic Supporter once said:
I will say, however, that Bob Knight continues to be awesome as a commentator -- he basically sounds like a coach out there, talking about rotations, giving people plaudits and demerits for things like rotations and help defense and awareness; none of the chatterbox or meaningless talk about "heart" and "toughness" like many guys. I think he might be my favorite color guy in the college game today.

That first bit is true, like 20% of the time I see him. The rest of the time I get the feeling he's on his sinecure (gets basic details of the game wrong). Maybe I've just caught him at the wrong times ... repeatedly?

My favorite pbp guy is Gus Johnson, my favorite commentator is Raftery. Despite this, I normally prefer cool, technical types over the high energy guys - I'd probably like an ex-coach type who's consistently on-point (and capable of teaching on air) very, very much.
   73. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:56 PM (#3887776)
No being an arrogant hothead is what got Knight in the end.

He was an arrogant hothead since he was 20 years old, and for every one of the 25+ years he was the IU coach. He never wavered. Factions of society did.
   74. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:58 PM (#3887778)
Whitey Herzog, Billy Martin and probably dozens of other managers in baseball history have multiple players they have had issues with. If you are Herzog, LaRussa etc you get your way, if you are Vern Rapp, you get fired.


This.

One of my favorite Whitey moments was when he was asked about the troubles a young pitcher was having (Kurt Kepshire), and out of nowhere he blurted out, "Well I like him a hell of a lot better than that fat lefty the Mets have (Sid Fernandez)...

As talent evaluation went, that was a wild swing and the miss, was it an effort to defend a player- and if so, could he do it without running someone else down?

My take from Bill James' writings is that James almost worshipped Herzog- until the 1985 World Series- which loss Herzog did not take well- and seems to have lead Bill James to a bit of re-evaluation.

My take on Herzog is that he wanted to win - and if he thought a player was interfering with that goal- whether it be by on field performance or off-field extra curricular activity- well then he was your mortal enemy:

Keith Hernandez- had the coke thing for awhile (and Herzog KNEW what that could do for a team)- plus he could give the wrong impression:
- didn't always run out grounders
- didn't always show up for infield practice or BP on time- preferred to stay in the clubhouse- doing crossword puzzles, smoozing with reporters (stirring up trouble as sport...)
I'm amazed he lasted as long with Whitey as he did.

I have no doubt that Herzog believed that Hernandez had to go and that the team could not win with him there. I also thing that he was somewhat baffled by KH's success with the Mets and the Mets' success post trade- I think he later rationalized it by thinking the trade helped KH by serving as a wakeup call.
   75. carpenoctem Posted: July 28, 2011 at 06:59 PM (#3887779)
Perhaps he was adding all five statistics together.

You're saying he was looking at OPSBI2B3BHRs? Jim Bowden is intrigued and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
   76. robinred Posted: July 28, 2011 at 07:05 PM (#3887783)
One of my favorite Whiter moments

Another race thread?
   77. T.J. Posted: July 28, 2011 at 07:10 PM (#3887788)
Bobby Knight is probably the best basketball announcer, or at the very least, the best college basketball announcer, on television right now.


Without having read the other thread, wherever it is, on the this topic, I agree. He's very good at explaining stuff. This "other thread" may show me the error of my ways.

[H]e's just about the most knowledgeable person about basketball that ever lived.


He may be up there, but there's several names I'd put up with or ahead of him: Dean Smith wrote several books on basketball (disclosure: I am a UNC grad), Coach K (I hate the self-promoting SOB, and I think he's shown a remarkable inability of late to develop any sort of a bench despite having a raft of McDonald's AAs year after year, but he's changed the game), Auerbach, John Wooden, Tex Winter, Larry Brown (another UNC grad, and also a huge, indecisive flake).
   78. robinred Posted: July 28, 2011 at 07:14 PM (#3887793)
As usual, I pretty much agree with SoSH on all things LaRussa.

My guess is that this is almost certainly not all LaRussa's fault, but if I were a St. Louis fan, it would still piss me off. Rasmus, knucklehead dad or no, is both young and good.
   79. Squash Posted: July 28, 2011 at 07:28 PM (#3887806)
LaRussa went on a rabid kvetching campaign his last year in Oakland. It wasn't just Ruben Sierra, it was Jason Giambi and Rickey Henderson too, not to mention Jose Canseco who had been gone for a few years. Also, any player on any team who dared to cross him, and the fans as well. He was constantly ######## about something, and it became quite apparent that his expiration date as manager had long passed.

Yeah there were lots of scuffles in Oakland. The feud with Canseco was the big one and started well before LaRussa left. By 1990 they were going back and forth at each other openly in the media, and they really ramped up during the World Series. In one of the games Canseco hit a solo home run right before they did a live interview with Canseco's wife at the time, Jennifer or Jessica or whoever, who was in the audience. She said something along the lines of "How do you like that Tony" which kind of was the crowing moment. When Canseco was finally traded a big part of the storyline was that he and LaRussa just couldn't get along anymore. TLR seems to be one of those guys who always has to be feuding with someone in order to hold it together personally - we've all worked with those kind of people, the ones who are always in a fight with someone else in the office and seem to need it in order to spend the rest of their focus on their job. On the flip side, Tony Rasmus seems to be among the worst breed of live-through-your-child sports parents.
   80. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 28, 2011 at 07:41 PM (#3887816)
On the flip side, Tony Rasmus seems to be among the worst breed of live-through-your-child sports parents.


Women's tennis, man those live though (off) your kids sports parents are certainly thick on the ground there, Mary Pierce's dad was merely more annoying than most (banned from the tour, restraining orders etc...) According to wikipedia she was once engaged to Robbie Alomar- did not know that.
   81. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: July 28, 2011 at 07:43 PM (#3887819)
He was an arrogant hothead since he was 20 years old, and for every one of the 25+ years he was the IU coach. He never wavered. Factions of society did.

What you say is true enough but also the reporting of what goes on within a team is no longer sacrosanct. People have a much better idea of what goes on in the "privacy" of a team. What was hidden wasn't so hidden any more. Bobby's a**holishness was much more on display.
Also seeing a 50 y.o. man act like a petulant child is more off-putting than a 30 y.o.

Then again I am of the naive opinion that you can lead without bullying. YMMV.
   82. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 28, 2011 at 07:50 PM (#3887824)
What did Knight in was his inability to win at a high level. Once he went from a great coach to a good coach, his ######## act became too much. If he was still going to the elite eight/final four every third year, he'd still be at IU. Unfortunately for him, his last six years at IU he was 2-6 in the NCAA tourney, and lost 10+ games five times.
   83. phredbird Posted: July 28, 2011 at 07:54 PM (#3887830)
That's weird --My dad hates Tony LaRussa too.


be prepared to pack your bags, malcontent.
   84. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 28, 2011 at 07:58 PM (#3887833)
Then again I am of the naive opinion that you can lead without bullying. YMMV.

You can. You can also lead with bullying every now and then, and Bobby Knight led extremely well.

I'd rather have Bobby Knight leading 18-22 year olds than a charlatan like John Calipari, who cheats everyplace he goes, doesn't graduate anybody, and fends only for himself.(**) It's not even a close call. The greater comfort with John Calipari than Bobby Knight within wide factions of society is an unsettling and troubling development.

(**) And Calipari constantly berates players publicly. The difference is that, unlike Knight, Calipari doesn't give two shits about his players.
   85. BWV 1129 Posted: July 28, 2011 at 08:00 PM (#3887836)
I thoroughly agree that Knight is the best basketball commentator working today.

Raftery is a frickin' clown. Raftery? COME ON.
   86. SoSH U at work Posted: July 28, 2011 at 08:01 PM (#3887838)
It was a combination of a changing culture, the culmination of some ugly events, a president who wanted to get him in line, and, yes, the team's performance. And the Reed thing had a dramatic effect. Reed was made to be the bad guy by all involved with the IU program, and the hearty denials from all followed the choking claims. So when the video revealed that, at the very least, Knight did grab him near the neck, opinion really turned on him.

If IU were still winning big, might he have survived? Possibly. But he lost a lot of support through the years from people who simply grew tired of the embarrassing conduct.
   87. SoSH U at work Posted: July 28, 2011 at 08:01 PM (#3887839)
Double Post.
   88. SteveM. Posted: July 28, 2011 at 08:02 PM (#3887840)
For all his hotheadness, I would much rather have my son play for Bobby Knight then say, John Calaperi.
Tony Rasmus is the ultimate example of the helicopter parent, a phenomenon that is becoming more prominent in higher education. Too many of today's parents can't let go when it is time for the kid to leave the nest. Instead, they will call their kid's professors like they did K-12 to find out why little Johnny or Susie flunked. Colby has a career-why is hid dad involved at all with it?
   89. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 28, 2011 at 08:05 PM (#3887843)
What did Knight in was his inability to win at a high level. Once he went from a great coach to a good coach, his ######## act became too much.

Sure, yeah. Why have an ####### lead your program when you can have an inveterate cheater like Kelvin Sampson cheat and run your program into the ground?
   90. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 28, 2011 at 08:14 PM (#3887851)
I won't, I'll get to go watch Captain America(I'm a huge Captain America fan have been putting off seeing the movie until today---I have every single Captain America comic since 1986, and am afraid this movie was going to screw it up as much as the last attempt did---The Red Skull in the last movie was an Italian mobster---reviews seem to indicate I'm pretty safe,


I hope it lives up to your expectations. I'm a huge Cap fan as well -- my consecutive-issue streak (except for the first year or so of the current series, which I've got in HC & TPB, respectively ... even so, I hate & try not to acknowledge the "Winter Soldier" garbage) actually goes back to late 1977 -- & am actually planning to see it this weekend, after pay day, my disdain for superhero movies in general notwithstanding. (Last one I paid to see, I'm pretty sure, was Superman 2, some 30 years ago.)

Supposedly the Howling Commandos are in it, so I'm duty-bound by religious principle to buy a ticket, I suppose.
   91. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 28, 2011 at 08:16 PM (#3887855)
Sure, yeah. Why have an ####### lead your program when you can have an inveterate cheater like Kelvin Sampson cheat and run your program into the ground?

FYI, Knight wasn't replaced by Sampson.

The greater comfort with John Calipari than Bobby Knight within wide factions of society is an unsettling and troubling development.

I don't know a single person who has a positive opinion of Calipari.
   92. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 28, 2011 at 08:21 PM (#3887859)
I don't know a single person who has a positive opinion of Calipari.


I do ... but of course he's a rabid Kentucky basketball fan.
   93. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: July 28, 2011 at 08:31 PM (#3887878)
Devil's advocate for JC: Calipari is very good at what he does. He also seems to do well by the kids in his program, afaict (I could be mistaken here ... I do not, however, strictly mean 'graduate them').

I can see why people don't like Raftery - admittedly, part of my like for him is probably nostalgia. But I'm surprised by the like for Knight - he makes a LOT of errors (I don't mean 'says things I disagree with', I mean 'makes weird factual mistakes') ... I honestly don't think he prepares very much.
   94. Paul D(uda) Posted: July 28, 2011 at 08:43 PM (#3887885)
Winter Soldier was awesome.
   95. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 28, 2011 at 08:50 PM (#3887895)
FYI, Knight wasn't replaced by Sampson.

I know. Sampson was the guy they went to when they went outside Knight's tree, and plenty of people were ecstatic that Knight and Knight's ghosts were no longer leading the program.

Ecstatic over Kelvin Sampson, an inveterate cheater.

I don't know a single person who has a positive opinion of Calipari.


That's a merely empirical observation (you don't "know" the Kentucky president and AD, and their opinion is entirely positive). The point is that you don't hear loud catcalls from non-connoisseurs about Calipari's "methods," even though they're corrupt, have been for 20 years, and are entirely self-serving. Calipari doesn't expect or ask anything more from people than sleaze, cutting corners, and Elmer Gantry (**) and that's fine; Bobby Knight did and that wasn't.

(**) Which, naturally, "does well by the kids in his program" -- why wouldn't it?
   96. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 28, 2011 at 08:53 PM (#3887897)
Winter Soldier was awesome.


Fine. But he wasn't Bucky. Bucky is dead. Has been since World War II, dammit.

What the hell next? Lady Pamela Hawley comes back from the grave?
   97. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 28, 2011 at 08:54 PM (#3887898)
I also don't know a single person who has a positive opinion of yourself. You fit right in with Knight and Calipari for being hated d-bags. congrats.
   98. cardsfanboy Posted: July 28, 2011 at 09:01 PM (#3887903)
Fine. But he wasn't Bucky. Bucky is dead. Has been since World War II, dammit.

What the hell next? Lady Pamela Hawley comes back from the grave?


except that Bucky being dead since WWII was also a retcon. (technically it wasn't until the 70's that they said that the Bucky running around in the 50's comics was a different Bucky and Cap)

I loved the Winter Soldier story, and love this version of Bucky. I hate the Punisher type of heroes(or even the Wolverine type) who resort to murder first and foremost, instead of as a last resort. Bucky/Winter/Cap was a street level type of hero that fit in well with both the spandex set and the grim and gritty set. Marvel tried this before with Nomad(one of Bucky's victims) but managed to screw that up to some extent.
   99. Paul D(uda) Posted: July 28, 2011 at 09:04 PM (#3887905)
Winter Soldier was awesome.



Fine. But he wasn't Bucky. Bucky is dead. Has been since World War II, dammit.

What the hell next? Lady Pamela Hawley comes back from the grave?


They all come back. Barry Allen, Bucky... everyone but Uncle Ben.

Although I think they're killing Ma and Pa Kent in the Superman reboot.
   100. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: July 28, 2011 at 09:08 PM (#3887909)
---The Red Skull in the last movie was an Italian mobster---


Did he shoot a lobster? [...smugly pats self on back...]
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