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Wednesday, March 18, 2009
Outside of breaking into John Tefteller’s hidden vault…he just might be right.
We hope our title to this post doesn’t overstate the magnitude of this find, but this is what we think. Presented in the upcoming REA auction is one of the most miraculous finds in the history of collecting. The collection is comprised of fifty lots of unopened gum boxes and packs from various issues date mostly from the 1930s. We have never before seen a single unopened box of gum cards from the 1930s. In fact, we don’t believe that anyone else has ever seen anything like the boxes and packs offered here either. At least not since the 1930s. This find is so incredible and so unlikely that, if we didn’t have the material here, and weren’t able to provide photographs, we wouldn’t expect anyone to believe us. It would be too ridiculous to be true. But it is.
An occasional surviving unopened 1930s pack is an extreme rarity. An unopened box of 1930s gum cards is unprecedented. An entire collection of circa 1930s unopened boxes and packs is a collecting miracle! Over the past thirty-nine years we’ve seen just about everything. There have been many other types of finds with greater monetary value. A single Honus Wagner card is worth more than this entire collection. But in terms of overall general impact to the most advanced collectors and simply being remarkable, this is one of the greatest collecting finds of any type, anywhere, ever. Almost all the packs and boxes are nonsport issues (just a few are baseball issues) produced by various 1930s gum companies such as National Chicle, Goudey, Tattoo Orbit, and Gum, Inc., as well as many other lesser known manufacturers.
Here’s how they survived: This material was very recently discovered. These boxes and packs were saved by a candy and gum distributor as ordering samples. The distributor kept these samples on a large shelving unit just for reference, to identify product for ordering purposes. As new products came in, sometimes boxes of old products would be shoved to the back of the sample product shelf, eventually hidden from view by more current product samples. The boxes and packs presented here were pushed so far back on the shelf that they were completely hidden from view, providing all the elements of a perfect time capsule, and allowing them to be completely undisturbed and perfectly preserved all these years. These boxes and packs, having been received directly from the manufacturers, have not been seen or touched or even exposed to light since being put on a shelf at the candy and gum distributor 70 to 80 years ago!
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1. Random Transaction Generator Posted: March 18, 2009 at 07:19 PM (#3107648)I really hope it is the latter...
Probably the latter, as the cards inside would be in near impeccable condition and would fetch very high dollars once graded.
I'd heard this before, so when I was at Skydome for Venezuela / USA, I spent $1.50 and got a pack of 1990 Topps from a vending machine. The gum sucked.
On the plus side, I also got Willie McGee, Dave Valle, Dale Sveum, and Otis Nixon. Oh, and someone named Paul Gibson who is wearing these massive "Friday night at the Bingo hall" glasses.
Let me ask my mother-in-law's undie drawer.
Assuming that the gum hasn't decomposed and stained the cards.
And that, in a nutshell, is what I find wrong with most kinds of collecting.
Needless to say, while he appreciated my logic, he was not entirely pleased with my manner and timing of presentation.
Schrödinger's Card, in other words ...
Yet if they don't open it, and don't plan to open it, what difference would it make if it was gravel?
I held onto them until I could visit my brother and we opened them together.
There was nothing of value insofar as the cards went in the box but getting a chance to re-live a shared cherished childhood experience meant more to me than I could’ve gotten with a valuable card.
Best Regards
John
What year were they?
Well, that was my point. No one really ever answered me.
I was always frustrated with the Topps Traded series of cards, as a stupid ten year old, you could never find these, unless you were at a show or a specialty shop.
I guess this is why I have never remotely grasped the appeal of collecting something for the sheer sake of owning it, and making utterly no use of it. I suppose it's entirely an investment, like hog futures or something, but at least with hogs there is an actual end-user consumer: someone is eventually going to slaughter and consume that hog. But presumably no one will ever open up this box and consume the pictures and information on the cards.
I was recently reading The Billionaire's Vinegar, by Benjamin Wallace, a book about the rare-wine trade (and fraud therein). These cards remind me of that book in some ways. First of all, that there are people who will buy rare bottles of wine at auction with no intention of ever opening them. And second, that once opened, rare wines may turn out to be undrinkable (but you never know till you open them). Wine, though, unlike baseball cards, is one of the few collectibles that you have to destroy to enjoy (and the drinking of rare bottles makes the surviving ones even rarer).
I'm reminded of the scene in Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, when the Steve Martin character says to the Michael Caine character, "Are you kidding me? You buy wine you can't drink?"
Sure, but in the museum's situation, the public's observing of the artifact is itself "consumption."
They did in 1981, but not after. In 1981, Topps, Fleer and Donruss all had gum in the packs. Then I think Topps won some kind of lawsuit that gave them exclusive rights to "bubble gum" baseball cards. So Fleer inserted stickers and Donruss inserted puzzles. Topps probably wasn't too pleased with the result.
Was the gum in the 1975 mini set, miniature?
Wow, I forgot aobut the puzzles. Those sucked. I had like 15 Stan Musial puzzles that were all missing the same 2 pieces.
I just looked at the pictures for free and have no further desire to pay a museum to see them. I love baseball cards but I'd love them more if they were cheaper. We are talking about mass produced pictures of people. There's no reason why someone else can't produce more pictures of any of these players, especially Honus Wagner since he's dead now and can't object. I've always enjoyed looking through a stack of commons though.
But his estate could.
There will be litigation re: anything that says Elvis on it that is produced from now to the end of time. If I learned anything in my Property Law class ten years ago, it is that you can't #### with the Presley estate.
Imagine ten envelopes, nine empty and one with $100 in it. How much would you pay for an envelope? Having bought one, how much could you sell it for?
I was at the Belmont about 4 years ago and the 1st three of my horses on my Pick 6 ticket won, and I had Smarty Jones (who was a massive fav) still to go. I was looking for someone to sell my ticket to (knowing it was worth more than I paid, but I was still aware the ticket was a long shot). I couldn't find anyone....I wish they had a market for that kind of thing.
I held onto them until I could visit my brother and we opened them together.
There was nothing of value insofar as the cards went in the box but getting a chance to re-live a shared cherished childhood experience meant more to me than I could’ve gotten with a valuable card.
Best Regards
John"
I endorse this statement. You can get whole unopened boxes of late '80s/early '90s cards for three or four bucks, and if you were a fan back then, the fun you get out of opening them more than covers the expense.
That's easy. Assuming I trust the guy to be honest, ten bucks apiece. That way, if I buy all ten, I'm still out ahead ten free empty envelopes.
But minus the time investment of your labor and no interest for the time it takes you to reconvert your cash in hand (the exact same amount of time, but it has two distinct and additive values.)
Which is why that's not an arb situation, because otherwise you could build an office supply empire on the back of that dude.
I think you greatly overestimate the value of my time. I mean, I'm posting here, right?
(Just in case Shooty or Justin or the like comes in, I realize that I'm being hypertechnical on the arb definition here.)
Hypothetically speaking, of course.
I'm looking through the Network 54 boards right now. I haven't seen even a mention of this yet, though. They're too busy accusing other users of tampering with cards and finding counterfeits on EBay. It's a shame, because I'd really like to hear what the people who routinely spend thousands of dollars on this hobby actually think. Maybe I should take a look at the Net 54 non-sports forum.
Here’s how they survived: This material was very recently discovered. These boxes and packs were saved by a candy and gum distributor as ordering samples. The distributor kept these samples on a large shelving unit just for reference, to identify product for ordering purposes. As new products came in, sometimes boxes of old products would be shoved to the back of the sample product shelf, eventually hidden from view by more current product samples. The boxes and packs presented here were pushed so far back on the shelf that they were completely hidden from view, providing all the elements of a perfect time capsule, and allowing them to be completely undisturbed and perfectly preserved all these years. These boxes and packs, having been received directly from the manufacturers, have not been seen or touched or even exposed to light since being put on a shelf at the candy and gum distributor 70 to 80 years ago!
Does this seem fishy to anybody else? These cards have been sitting around on some unspecified shelf at an unspecified distributor since the 1930s? You're telling me that nobody noticed this during that huge card collecting boom in the 1980s / early 1990s, when people everywhere were searching through their grandparents' attics?
As for the discussion here, nobody seems to have replied to the questions about what packs contained gum. Topps only inserted gum in wax packs, not rack and cello packs. That's why rack and cello packs tend to sell for a little bit more: there's no chance of gum staining.
Donruss inserted gum in wax packs in 1981, and then stopped after Topps flexed its monopolistic muscles. The way Topps kept a stronghold on the market for so long has always fascinated me. I don't think you could come up with a better looking set than Donruss '84, but I'm guessing that those cards have held their value so well only because it was printed in such low quantities. There are still collectors who only collect Topps, which I find just fascinating.
Oh, and I ####### hate Upper Deck and everything it stands for.
EDIT: I'm sorry to the guy who spent $1.50 on a pack of 1990 Topps. You could get a wax box of 1990 Topps for about $5 (maybe even less). I've got a feeling that those cards are less expensive than toilet paper, and just as useful.
I linked this in the Lounge the other day, but you guys are much more likely to have fun with it. I had to guess on every single one, got the monkey/typewriter score, but was consistently the second best answer:
A Trading Card Quiz
Sorry? Why? That's my ######' ashtray money, bro.
Seriously, it was either that, or spend $1.00 on a Pat Borders rookie card. And I just wanted to test out the "aged baseball card bubble gum tastes great" myth I'd heard before.
When I was 11, I got a card signed by Jeff Huson in basically his rookie season (1990). I remember it was his rookie, he looked at it, flipped it over, read it, looked up and said "Are you sure you want me to sign this? I think it'll decrease the value."
Considering I now see he went .240/.320/.280 (yes, you read that right) in 400 ABs, he was probably right.
As for 1980's boxes, there are tons and tons of those things still floating around. I remember last year I went to cooperstown and bought a bunch of 1984's Topps unopened packs.
Even in something as simple and seemly straightforward as an unopen pack can be shady since I got the feeling after looking into some of the packs that someone at sometime simply opened up the packs and removed the valuable cards and ironed the packs closed again. Either that or my memory of good cards to crappy cards is way out of whack.
that was an ugly card by the way.
My favorite card ever is the 1987 Topps Bo Jackson. Between the wooden panel and the multi-color "Future Stars" logo, it's like Norman Rockwell and Andy Warhol collaborated to create the perfect rookie card for an iconic, once-in-several-generations athlete. I could stare at it all day.
I bought the Tiffany version of that card not too long ago. Exact same card, only with gloss and much better card stock. They're more expensive than the pack counterparts but I've since started buying some of my favorite cards from 1984-1991 in Tiffany form. It's like I'm 8 all over again.
Considering I now see he went .240/.320/.280 (yes, you read that right) in 400 ABs, he was probably right.
My favorite story along these lines has always been Gorman Thomas'. Somebody had a baseball with autographs from Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Mickey Mantle and Joe DiMaggio, and asked Gorman Thomas to add his. Thomas' reaction: "There's no telling what that ball was worth before I signed it."
I agree completely. And you'd love this book,, even at sixty bucks. It's one of those doorstop-sized books that's got full-color reproductions of pretty much every baseball card produced by every manufacturer (except Topps, which rates its own separate volume) between 1886 and 1956, including all the old "cabinet" card chromolithographs. It may be the most spectacularly beautiful book of baseball images ever published.
Linky. Yeah, so I was just misremembering that he had the glove up, but the rest of it is pretty much spot on with my mental image. If they had taken the picture what looks like about a second or two later, that's what I had in mind. Glove up shading his eyes and to make a one-hand catch.
You should try to sell me your cards, especially if Beckett's is high - I only got 5 right, and guessed high on 10.
I have a bridge, too.
I did, however, get 12 out of 14 on the 80s Wrestling Toys quiz.
As for the unopened stuff...it's just incredibly rare to find old packs like that. I doubt they'll ever get opened and I kind of hope they don't. None of the cards will be new, but those unopened packs are like a time capsule. (I did find some unopened packs of 1988 Donruss the last time I went home to Calif. Those are worthless so I went ahead and opened them. It was a good time, actually.)
I would sell a certain percentage of them now. Make my life easier. But I would set the rest of them aside in a sort of trust that ensured that they were only opened one at a time every 20 years or so. That way they would become a neat family artifact and ritual. More importantly you would get the best of both worlds: the preservation and celebration of the mystique of not knowing, combined with the satisfaction and nail-bitingness of actually opening the cards. It would also probably turn it into a bit of a cult event for collectors and drive up the value of those cards.
That always struck me as a nice collection to pursue, many of the players being pretty ordinary big leaguers and their cards reasonably priced. A complete set of all the major-leaguers to have played Negro League ball would be about 60 cards, I think (provided you only wanted one example of each player). One of the few baseball cards I ever bought at a show was a late-career Don Newcombe card (1958, in an LA uniform). It was a dollar, a dollar fifty; this was 20 years ago. I don't suppose it's worth $20,000 now, or something ...
It's not, but that doesn't really matter. I actually wish the cards I collected were less valuable so I could get more. Guys like Pop Lloyd and Oscar Charleston will most likely always be out of my reach. People who start off by describing the value of their collection in $$$ are boors anyway. The best part of having Negro League cards is explaining to anyone interested--not many people are, admittedly--what was cool about the particular player pictured.
You can get one for less than $10 (including shipping) on eBay. Close enough!
Where do you find them? Garage sales? ebay?
For whatever reason, it seemed impossible to pull an Eric Davis card in that set. Eddie Milner on the other hand seemed like he was in every pack. He was black, on the Reds, and played in the outfield. I think that card tricked me more than a few times. I'd see it and I think I finally got an Eric Davis only to be disappointed with the yet another Eddie Milner card.
That set made me really dislike Jim Gantner too. It seemed like he was in every pack, too.
Absolutely right. There's a lot of racism on those forums, especially directed toward the two guys who own that disputed Wagner. Sure, it's probably fake, but some people come off as incredibly rude in those discussions.
Somebody posted on there a few months ago about how it was easy to collect Negro League cards for cheap. It might have been you, actually.
I've only posted there once, and that was when somebody asked if his original 1969 APBA set was worth anything. I told him that I'd pay him whatever he wanted, and never heard from him again.
I don't know if I ever said anything about this, but I got a 1980 Rickey! rookie card for something like $10 on EBay. It's not in great condition, but it's good enough for me, and it got my 1980 Topps set going (I'm about 2/3 through). I never thought I'd see it that cheap. The stupid grading thing may have inflated top end cards, but it also means that you can get slightly used cards for a steal. Most of those 7s, 8s and 9s have been tampered with anyway.
I want that book in #63.
Dan, that Wagner is 100% fake and there's absolutely no question about it. It's not even a good fake as they put the wrong type of back on the card. It would be like counterfeiting a $1000 bill with the wrong president's portrait. That the media has given any credence to its authenticity is a complete joke. It doesn't make the racist stuff right, though. If you ever want to see some ugliness, go onto that site and say you think Barry Bonds is better than Ty Cobb.
About 10 minutes ago at a stoop sale I bought this book, the one mentioned above, Classic Baseball Cards, for $7.
And THIS is why I look at every book on every stoop. The sort of awesome find that makes you practically tear up.
That's just wrong.
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