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Monday, July 30, 2012

Red Sox’ Andrew Miller surprised by Hershiser’s criticism

I’ve had it about up to here (points to tippy-top of huge Pomade-Easy vat) with The Great Oreltor, Hershiser

Red Sox reliever Andrew Miller was the target of criticism from ESPN analyst Orel Hershiser during Sunday night’s game, as Hershiser took exception with Miller chuckling in the dugout after allowing a double and being lifted in the eighth inning.

Miller explained after the game that he was responding to a wisecrack about his pitch selection from backup catcher Kelly Shoppach, and he did not care for Hershiser’s comment that the reliever’s reaction was indicative of the Red Sox’ poor team chemistry.

“That’s what good teammates do,” Miller said, according to the Providence Journal. “I’m not going to get all upset and drown in my sorrows right there. I remember talking to Aaron [Cook] and to Shop—and that’s what good teammates do. They’re trying to keep it light and loose. It’s out of my control from that point on. To me, that’s kind of odd, something that [Hershiser] would point out right there. To me, that’s kind of the opposite of what you want. I appreciate guys being there for me.

“We’re a group that likes each other. Watching the end of the game, we’re having a good time. Obviously, we’re not winning as much as we’d like, per se, but we’ve got a group that gets along, and we’ve got the pieces to be a good team.”

 

Repoz Posted: July 30, 2012 at 11:37 AM | 43 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: media, red sox

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   1. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: July 30, 2012 at 11:54 AM (#4195802)
Everything Miller says in the excerpt is spot on. Except for the last sentence...
   2. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: July 30, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4195809)
I thought Hershiser did a "get off my lawn" thing there at the end. I didn't think it was appropriate.
   3. Dale Sams Posted: July 30, 2012 at 12:05 PM (#4195822)
So Miller gets the "In my day" treatment....but no one says anything remotely close to, "Why the #### is Carl Crawford not stealing?? What are they paying for???"
   4. Jeff Francoeur's OPS Posted: July 30, 2012 at 12:07 PM (#4195824)
I remember Miller being a baby-faced Detroit Tiger on Sunday Night Basbeball years ago.

Now he looks like the spawn of Johnny Damon.
   5. andrewberg Posted: July 30, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4195829)
You can tell that the Red Sox are struggling if the dugout appears to be either happy or sad.
   6. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 30, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4195830)
So Miller gets the "In my day" treatment....but no one says anything remotely close to, "Why the #### is Carl Crawford not stealing?? What are they paying for???"
Only 55 SB off Kuroda in 836 innings in MLB. I think he's got that crafty righty thing where he's deceptive in his timing and quick to the plate. I bet Crawford and Ellsbury had trouble getting a read, and with the 3-4-5 hitters coming up, they would need to be quite confident in the read to take off.

It does seem like Crawford's not healthy enough to be playing everyday MLB baseball, but I think the lack of steal attempts last night was reasonable.
   7. Lassus Posted: July 30, 2012 at 12:14 PM (#4195832)
I would almost think this is where "Orel should come say that to me in person and see how stupid he feels as a result" would be a decent response.

Mostly because Orel seems like a pretty smart, even-tempered guy, and I'm reasonably sure he would actually feel like an idiot saying that out loud to the actual subject rather than the faceless goober masses.
   8. Dale Sams Posted: July 30, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4195842)
I was referring to the more critical Soriano 9th inning.

I remarked in the OTM thread that, "Most speedsters upset the defense, and rattle the pitcher. Carl is rattling his own team by being on base"
   9. Delino DeShields & Yarnell Posted: July 30, 2012 at 12:21 PM (#4195847)
So this is like the women's soccer team kerfuffle. Except that team actually has Hope. AMIRITE?
   10. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 30, 2012 at 12:34 PM (#4195859)
The piling on Carl Crawford is more than enough, already. Am I allowed to feel bad for a guy making $142 million?

They should just make the best decision they can with his elbow, taking into account where they are this year and the time he would miss next year if he needs surgery and it's delayed, and leave it at that. He will be a good player for them, even if the first two years have essentially been washed away.
   11. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 30, 2012 at 12:47 PM (#4195873)
The piling on Carl Crawford is more than enough, already. Am I allowed to feel bad for a guy making $142 million?

They should just make the best decision they can with his elbow, taking into account where they are this year and the time he would miss next year if he needs surgery and it's delayed, and leave it at that.


I'm with Ray on this one. For all the frustration about Crawford I haven't read or seen anything that suggests to me a lack of effort or desire. In fact, most articles suggest if anything he is trying to hard to earn his money.
   12. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: July 30, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4195883)
Here's Orel demonstrating a proper team chemistry building exercise.
   13. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: July 30, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4195892)
It was a strange sequence. I did notice Miller appearing pretty jovial in the dugout for a guy who had just let the tying run get on base that late in the game, though I didn't take offense to it. No one in the booth mentioned it until after Martin tied the game, at which point, Orel went off on the tangent while Francona seconded him by saying, "I could see you cringing when we showed Miller in the dugout."

The criticism of it just seems to be in the same ballpark as the criticisms against a player's "heart" because he doesn't play a smash-mouth style of ball.
   14. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 30, 2012 at 01:00 PM (#4195894)
The piling on Carl Crawford is more than enough, already. Am I allowed to feel bad for a guy making $142 million?

They should just make the best decision they can with his elbow, taking into account where they are this year and the time he would miss next year if he needs surgery and it's delayed, and leave it at that.

I'm with Ray on this one. For all the frustration about Crawford I haven't read or seen anything that suggests to me a lack of effort or desire. In fact, most articles suggest if anything he is trying to hard to earn his money.
Thirded. See also Rob Bradford's article today. If anything, the problem is that he wants to contribute too much, and he's pushing himself too hard.
"I think the fact I make $20 million a year, people probably think I should be out there trying to kill myself. And that's probably the approach I'm taking, too," Crawford told WEEI.com after the Red Sox' 3-2, 10-inning win over the Yankees on Sunday night. "You feel like you owe it to the team to do that kind of stuff, and that's why you do it. Any other time you wouldn't do it.

"When you sign for $100 million and stuff like that, it's no secret. You feel like you owe it to the team to do that kind of stuff. You make a lot of money so you definitely want to try and pay that back. It's like you owe that to the team to try and do that."
   15. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 30, 2012 at 01:13 PM (#4195914)
It was a strange sequence. I did notice Miller appearing pretty jovial in the dugout for a guy who had just let the tying run get on base that late in the game, though I didn't take offense to it.


Another case of people - even professional athletes like Hershiser - not understanding what makes professional athletes successful. Whatever demeanor a professional athlete has, that's what has made him successful - in college, in the minors, to make it to the majors, etc. I wouldn't have ever wanted to change, say, Manny Ramirez's approach to the game, and I'd never want to change Miller's.
   16. Bruce Markusen Posted: July 30, 2012 at 01:15 PM (#4195915)
Orel Hershiser owes no apology to Miller--nothing. As a color announcer, it's his job to react to what he's seeing on the field and in the dugout. It's not his job to personally confront Miller in the clubhouse after the game.

Yeesh, talk about sensitive, pampered athletes in that Red Sox' clubhouse.

Andrew Miller? What the heck has he ever done in the major leagues that we should even lend credence to his childish complaints?
   17. villageidiom Posted: July 30, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4195929)
Andrew Miller? What the heck has he ever done in the major leagues that we should even lend credence to his childish complaints?
I must have missed the part where Miller was complaining, let alone doing so childishly.
   18. SoSH U at work Posted: July 30, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4195936)

Another case of people - even professional athletes like Hershiser - not understanding what makes professional athletes successful. Whatever demeanor a professional athlete has, that's what has made him successful - in college, in the minors, to make it to the majors, etc. I wouldn't have ever wanted to change, say, Manny Ramirez's approach to the game, and I'd never want to change Miller's.


Orel Hershiser owes no apology to Miller--nothing. As a color announcer, it's his job to react to what he's seeing on the field and in the dugout. It's not his job to personally confront Miller in the clubhouse after the game.

Yeesh, talk about sensitive, pampered athletes in that Red Sox' clubhouse.

Andrew Miller? What the heck has he ever done in the major leagues that we should even lend credence to his childish complaints?


I simply hate the idea that a momentary glimpse gives us any kind of picture of an individual and how he's dealing with something. I was at a wake yesterday, talking to the daughters of a woman who died of cancer. If Orel, at a specific moment, looked over at one of the girls, he'd have seen her doing a little dance. Does that mean that she didn't care that her mother was dead? Of course not. But for an instant, she wasn't the grief stricken young lady but a 17-year-old girl. Good for her.

That Andrew Miller laughed at something that Kelly Shoppach said hardly means he doesn't take the game serious, or care if the team wins or loses or any of that. It means he found something funny. That's all.

And Orel Hershiser should know that.


   19. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 30, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4195941)
Orel Hershiser owes no apology to Miller--nothing. As a color announcer, it's his job to react to what he's seeing on the field and in the dugout. It's not his job to personally confront Miller in the clubhouse after the game.

Yeesh, talk about sensitive, pampered athletes in that Red Sox' clubhouse.

Andrew Miller? What the heck has he ever done in the major leagues that we should even lend credence to his childish complaints?


And you probably noticed that Miller didn't say Hershiser owed him an apology or that Hershiser should have confronted him in the clubhouse nor did he say he was bothered by Hershiser's comments.

Other than that your analysis of the situation is spot on.
   20. Lassus Posted: July 30, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4195982)
And you probably noticed that Miller didn't say Hershiser owed him an apology or that Hershiser should have confronted him in the clubhouse nor did he say he was bothered by Hershiser's comments.

I'm the one who mentioned that it would be fun to have Orel say that directly to Miller, more as an exercise in people saying stupid things out loud to other people with the same conviction they say to an anonymous audience. Bruce may have been referring to me there, although I admit I found the entirety of his comment about Miller to be pretty weird.
   21. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: July 30, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4196014)
Orel Hershiser owes no apology to Miller--nothing. As a color announcer, it's his job to react to what he's seeing on the field and in the dugout. It's not his job to personally confront Miller in the clubhouse after the game.

Yeesh, talk about sensitive, pampered athletes in that Red Sox' clubhouse.

Andrew Miller? What the heck has he ever done in the major leagues that we should even lend credence to his childish complaints?
WTF are you even talking about? Are you actually saying that Hershiser should see something in the dugout, do a knee-jerk mix-in with the preferred storyline of this year's team, and state an opinion out loud on national TV as if it's fact?

I suppose some might say that *is* an announcer's job, to stir the ####, but it's one reason why a lot of sports journalists don't get a lot of respect.

(And for the record, I generally like Hershiser very much -- but as with most athletes-turned-announcers, I want to hear him talk about the strategy and mechanics of the game, not off-the-cuff pop-psych crap.)
   22. Dale Sams Posted: July 30, 2012 at 02:43 PM (#4196039)
I just wanted Crawford to attempt a steal in a critical part of the game, and it certainly appeared to me that he was upsetting Pedroia throughout the game.
   23. Joel W Posted: July 30, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4196068)
I'm certainly coming around to the view that Pedroia is the one I should be judging as an ####### and not people who Pedroia pisses off. Not just in the obvious "he runs is mouth all the time but I like him on my team" sort of #######, but just a genuine jerk/bad employee.
   24. valuearbitrageur Posted: July 30, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4196094)
Andrew Miller? What the heck has he ever done in the major leagues that we should even lend credence to his childish complaints?


I missed the part where your achievements in the MLB somehow gave your opinions more validity.

If so it would be great if The McLaughlin Group could have replaced it's lineup with Ty Cobb, Ichiro Suzuki, Dave Kingman, Jack Clark and Barry Bonds.
   25. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 30, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4196096)
I didn't hear Hershiser's comments, and I generally find him to be a good commentator, but if "Hershiser’s comment that the reliever’s reaction was indicative of the Red Sox’ poor team chemistry" is accurate that is a weird comment. Perhaps Miller's reaction indicates a lack of intensity (not saying it is, but that would be a more understandable conclusion), but if players are joking with each other and smiling that would indicate good chemistry, in the way the term is typically used where "chemistry = players getting along with each other".
   26. franoscar Posted: July 30, 2012 at 03:27 PM (#4196102)
#24: In that case I would watch The McLaughlin Group every chance I got...as long as they didn't actually have a moldy skeleton sitting there with the other 4 guys.
   27. Dale Sams Posted: July 30, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4196115)
I'm certainly coming around to the view that Pedroia is the one I should be judging as an ####### and not people who Pedroia pisses off. Not just in the obvious "he runs is mouth all the time but I like him on my team" sort of #######, but just a genuine jerk/bad employee.


Pedroia is dead on in his comments about players just going through the motions in ABs and not even bothering to try and driveup a relivers pitch count so you don't have to see him tomorrow.

...but I can certainly see how Carl Crawford has earned all this benefit of the doubt.
   28. Joel W Posted: July 30, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4196139)
I don't know why you're mistaking outcomes for effort. As people have noted above, Crawford in many ways is probably failing because he's too concerned with success/not letting people down. Crawford is swinging just as much as he did when he was successful. Asking him to try and drive up a reliever's pitch count is asking him to do something other than what has made him successful.
   29. Joel W Posted: July 30, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4196149)
Also athletes who can sit on the bench and just let things go are in the best position to succeed (though I admit it's a different situation in this article): http://www.bakadesuyo.com/what-secret-to-peak-performance-can-we-learn

Also, Andrew Miller has been absurdly good against lefties this year. I knew he had been good, but I hadn't realized .367 OPS good.
   30. Dale Sams Posted: July 30, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4196159)
asking him to do something other than what has made him successful.


He did not become successful in TB by swinging at balls bouncing a foot in front of the plate or ones that run in the other batters box. He's a 0 tool player right now batting second...but it must be because he's "trying TOO hard" or "He cares too much".

He blamed Tito for sucking all last year (who does that???). And now...what?? He's blaming his contract? The contract and the fans are making him try too hard?

...pull this one, it plays Jingle Bells.


Tell you what though. I'm just going to go on record right here for everyone who doesn't already know or hasn't figured it out and say that I despise Carl Crawford (as a baseball player) more than any other player currently in MLB. I just want to put it on the record so I can STFU about it and not turn into Fly...or whoever..and everytime he does something stupid, I'll just post "...." so as not to beat a dead Lackey.


Edit: as for the OP, shut-up Orel. I appreciate a loose bench as much as I appreciated and admired Aceves for taking the entire potential blame for the end of last nights game on his shoulders. I loved that.
   31. Nasty Nate Posted: July 30, 2012 at 04:08 PM (#4196175)
I will re-iterate Darren's point from a different thread: the Sox look like idiots for bragging after the signing about how much research they did on Crawford.

I say this while also acknowledging that Crawford is neck-in-neck with Valentine this year for the highest percentage of public quotes which lower my confidence in them being successful.
   32. Dale Sams Posted: July 30, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4196177)
Do teams interview potential free agents? You'd think given the amount of money involved they would.
   33. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 30, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4196195)

I was surprised to see that Crawford has only played 11 games so far this year. Based on all the comments I've seen I had just assumed he was sucking it up all season.
   34. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: July 30, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4196247)
He blamed Tito for sucking all last year (who does that???). And now...what?? He's blaming his contract? The contract and the fans are making him try too hard?


Well, he didn't do that. People ask him why he sucks so much probably a couple times a day, and there are likely multiple reasons that lead to him putting a lot of pressure on himself. People often do things for more than one reason.

He certainly looks like he's trying too hard, and I don't get the impression that he doesn't care, so I feel for him. It's not fun to watch though, I'll give you that. He makes me sad and despairing more than angry, though.
   35. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 30, 2012 at 05:09 PM (#4196252)
He blamed Tito for sucking all last year (who does that???). And now...what?? He's blaming his contract? The contract and the fans are making him try too hard?
If you can see past your rage for two seconds, you'd understand that Crawford isn't "blaming" anything in any of the above quotes. He's explaining that he's trying as hard as he can, and playing through significant pain, because he wants to earn his contract.

I was the one saying that I wonder, from Crawford's description of things, if he isn't putting too much pressure on himself and trying too hard. I could be wrong, his problem might just be the extent of the injury, or random variation, or a sudden drop in actual baseball skill, or some combination of the above. The one thing I'm basically certain isn't the issue is lack of effort.
   36. Nasty Nate Posted: July 30, 2012 at 05:23 PM (#4196269)
If you can see past your rage for two seconds, you'd understand that Crawford isn't "blaming" anything in any of the above quotes.


I'm guessing the blaming Tito thing was a reference to Crawford implying a few weeks ago that being moved to 7th in the lineup for a game in early April last year sent him into some shame spiral of suckitude.
   37. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 30, 2012 at 05:32 PM (#4196281)
Yeah, he did complain about Tito. I'm not saying he's never complained.

My point, somewhat obscured by the citation I chose, was that the interview that I quoted was totally recrimination-free, and Dale was seeing what he wanted to see when he saw blame-throwing in Crawford's quotes.
   38. Dale Sams Posted: July 30, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4196295)
What's funny is the article MCOA linked is much more damning of the FO, re: Lackey. They went ahead and signed Lackey knowing what they knew and think it makes up for it by adding a league-min year? And what if Lackey retires right before that year?
   39. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 30, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4196297)
What's funny is the article MCOA linked is much more damning of the FO, re: Lackey. They went ahead and signed Lackey knowing what they knew and think it makes up for it by adding a league-min year? And what if Lackey retires right before that year?
Oh, absolutely. They look really, really stupid for signing Lackey effectively against medical advice. And as NN has said, they further look dumb for all the "we know Carl Crawford's soul" stuff from last offseason. I think it's pretty likely that part of Crawford's struggles have been mental. I just dispute that he hasn't been trying hard.
   40. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: July 30, 2012 at 06:24 PM (#4196317)
I'll keep saying it - the problem for most teams, especially the "big market" teams, is not paying a lot of money for several players - it's when you pay lots of money for players that aren't elite.

John Lackey - not elite. He gets $16 million annually.

Carl Crawford was never an elite player - he's had one season with OPS+ above 117. Yes, that doesn't take into account his SBs and his defense in LF, but so what? LF defense in Fenway isn't all that valuable, and the Red Sox are not a team that steals lots of bases. And if you look at his career SB numbers entering 2011, they were significantly strengthened by his performance against...the Red Sox! In his career, he has stolen 62 bases, and been caught...4 times. He ran more against Jason Varitek and Co. than any other player in the big leagues during his time in Tampa Bay, and enjoyed the benefit. Good for him - but that has nothing to do with the value he'd add for Boston.

Manny was a pair in the ###, but I didn't hear a lot of people saying that his problem was his salary. At $20 million annually, he was an elite hitter for virtually his entire time in Boston. Crawford has received MVP votes exactly twice in his career - 26th place in 2006, and 7th place in his biggest year, 2010. Manny finished in the top six in his last three years in Cleveland, then finished in the top 9 his first five years in Boston (plus a 4th-place finish a few years after that run).

We are all frustrated because the Red Sox are stuck paying elite money to a bunch of guys who simply aren't elite...and never were.
   41. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: July 30, 2012 at 08:03 PM (#4196437)
We are all frustrated because the Red Sox are stuck paying elite money to a bunch of guys who simply aren't elite...and never were.


I'm not really sure what definition of elite you're using, but Gonzalez certainly was considered one of the best 1B in MLB at the time the Red Sox got him and is having a lousy year, and Crawford was coming off of 5.9 and 7.6 (3rd best in MLB) WAR seasons. People are a little more skeptical of WAR now than they were a year and a half ago, but even elite players can collapse totally.

It sounds like your frustration is more at the rise of a WAR-like statistic as a measure of player value in the Red Sox FO. Manny was merely pretty good by WAR 2004-2007, rather than elite.
   42. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: July 30, 2012 at 10:25 PM (#4196572)
I'm not using WAR as my primary measure of "elite". I am using the term in a more conversational way, like, "Does he feel like a guy that should be one of the top-paid guys in the sport?" Carl Crawford?

I was not referring to Adrian Gonzalez - indeed, he is the one big-money signing in the last several years that seems like he was the right "elite" investment. He obviously had been spectacular in San Diego, a tough ballpark in which to hit, and his power to left seems like a perfect fit for Fenway. Unlike Crawford, consider Gonzalez's OPS+ in the seasons before coming to Boston:

127, 126, 140, 162, 152.

Carl Crawford can't touch that ####.
   43. Dale Sams Posted: July 30, 2012 at 10:37 PM (#4196591)
I'm not using WAR as my primary measure of "elite". I am using the term in a more conversational way, like, "Does he feel like a guy that should be one of the top-paid guys in the sport?" Carl Crawford?


It wasn't even a matter of the SABR-friendly Epstein overvaluing Carl's entire ....package...the Angels bought into the hype too.

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