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Wednesday, October 30, 2013

Red Sox David Ortiz’s pep talk could be signature moment in this World Series - Sports - The Boston Globe

Big Papi, big man for big moments.

Jim Furtado Posted: October 30, 2013 at 11:21 AM | 48 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cardinals, red sox, world series

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   1. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: October 30, 2013 at 11:26 AM (#4589354)
Oh gimme a ####### break.
   2. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 30, 2013 at 11:28 AM (#4589361)
. “Do you know how many people we beat up to get to this level? To this stage?


Germans?
   3. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 30, 2013 at 11:34 AM (#4589370)
I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.
   4. SG Posted: October 30, 2013 at 12:09 PM (#4589417)
So if Ortiz would have just made this pep talk in 2008 the Red Sox would have won that year too? Why doesn't he just keep making this pep talk of his if it's so magical?
   5. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: October 30, 2013 at 12:14 PM (#4589422)
Now I feel cheated that the pep talk wasn't televised. All we get to see are the actual games. What a rip off!
   6. Publius Publicola Posted: October 30, 2013 at 12:15 PM (#4589424)
I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.


You think? Here, let's make sure:

Boston Red Sox star David Ortiz playing his way to Cooperstown in the World Series
   7. Publius Publicola Posted: October 30, 2013 at 12:17 PM (#4589427)
Now I feel cheated that the pep talk wasn't televised.


Actually, it was:

Papi rallies his teammates in dugout
   8. SG Posted: October 30, 2013 at 12:20 PM (#4589430)
Really it was a decent pep talk. Not a great one. Any 38 year old DH who has magically avoided his decline phase could have made it.
   9. Nasty Nate Posted: October 30, 2013 at 12:24 PM (#4589432)
So if Ortiz would have just made this pep talk in 2008 the Red Sox would have won that year too? Why doesn't he just keep making this pep talk of his if it's so magical?


He made it in aught-eight, but it was stale because most of the guys had already heard it the prior year, so it didn't take.
   10. SoSH U at work Posted: October 30, 2013 at 12:28 PM (#4589436)
His mates are welcome to put that inspiration toward hitting the ball any time now.

   11. Morty Causa Posted: October 30, 2013 at 12:35 PM (#4589448)
David Ortiz has a few good at-bats and he's suddenly the Oracle at Delphi.
   12. Curse of the Graffanino (dfan) Posted: October 30, 2013 at 12:38 PM (#4589450)
From the article in #6: "Ortiz does more than hit — or, rather, designate hit"
   13. Srul Itza Posted: October 30, 2013 at 01:06 PM (#4589472)
You think? Here, let's make sure:

Boston Red Sox star David Ortiz playing his way to Cooperstown in the World Series


I would have no problem with David Ortiz in the Hall of Fame. At least then we would know that one 'roider made it.
   14. What Zupcic? Posted: October 30, 2013 at 01:07 PM (#4589473)
Just my opinion but the problem with this place is that everything has to be seen through a 'chortle chortle, the LAMEstream media is so stupid!' I get not being thrilled about it if you actively don't like the Red Sox but if you're a neutral baseball fan this was a great moment. A team in danger of going down 3-1 in the World Series gathered in the dugout for a pep talk, everyone got fired up, and they went out and almost immediately took a late inning 4-1 lead. I don't think there's any conflict between knowing that Ortiz's speech didn't do anything to help Gomes hit that homer and it still being a part of pretty memorable series of events. Getting so hung up on how people who consume baseball differently than you feel about what it meant is pointlessly counterproductive.
   15. SG Posted: October 30, 2013 at 01:16 PM (#4589483)
I get not being thrilled about it if you actively don't like the Red Sox but if you're a neutral baseball fan this was a great moment.


I think most of the comments that you are decrying are by people who actively don't like the Red Sox.
   16. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: October 30, 2013 at 01:20 PM (#4589485)
Momentum is tomorrow's starting orator
   17. tfbg9 Posted: October 30, 2013 at 01:26 PM (#4589494)
I would have no problem with David Ortiz in the Hall of Fame. At least then we would know that one 'roider made it.


For the 8 millionth time, there is zero evidence Ortiz did any banned/illegal substance. Zero.
   18. What Zupcic? Posted: October 30, 2013 at 01:35 PM (#4589502)
I think most of the comments that you are decrying are by people who actively don't like the Red Sox.


Fair enough. I think the point stands generally though. As another (non-Red Sox) example, I think everyone agrees that Mariano Rivera's retirement and the media coverage of it was a bit over the top but, from the threads I read here, it seemed like people got caught up in snarking on that reaction to baseball events at the expense of celebrating the actual baseball; that a historically unique and amazing pitcher was leaving the game. There's a lot of amazing, interesting and exciting stuff that happens in baseball but people seem to get caught up in what annoys them rather than what excites them. Why not reflect on how awesome he was rather than snark about what a moron Bob Kaplisch is? Seems like it's missing the point...

I suppose that viewpoint should welcome some 'Welcome to the Internet!' comments huh?
   19. Bitter Mouse Posted: October 30, 2013 at 01:42 PM (#4589511)
I don't hate the Sox and I came here specifically (after reading the headline) to read snark and perhaps snark myself. Because it is really snark worthy. In fact vomit inducing is only going a little too far.

Blech.

#2, 8, and 16 made it worth coming into this thread, so thanks!
   20. SoSH U at work Posted: October 30, 2013 at 01:51 PM (#4589530)
Regardless which team wins, the signature moment of this World Series will be the obstruction call.
   21. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 30, 2013 at 01:59 PM (#4589544)
If the Sox wins the speech will be remembered among Sox fans much the way the Varitek/A-Rod fight is remembered.
   22. Sonic Youk Posted: October 30, 2013 at 02:00 PM (#4589546)
If David Ortiz is taking steroids that make him good at baseball, and isn't getting caught, that puts him two steps ahead of the Yankees.
   23. tfbg9 Posted: October 30, 2013 at 02:26 PM (#4589581)
For f*ck's sake, he registered positive for a suppliment, the Union and MLB as much as said so, without saying so, since they were legally unable to comment on a bullsh1t story about some nameless guy who claims he saw a list. But the Times was able to smear him
with an annonymous, single-sourced joke that would get flushed by any prof for Journalism 101.
   24. Jim Furtado Posted: October 30, 2013 at 02:26 PM (#4589582)
This was a human moment during a human event. To think words between teammates have no place in athletic contests ignores reality. Can we quantity how such stuff impacts the results? No we can't. We also can't dismiss it out of hand. Just out of curiosity, have the snarkers in this thread ever played competitively at any level? I'm not trying to be snarky myself, BTW. I am honestly curious.
   25. Bitter Mouse Posted: October 30, 2013 at 02:35 PM (#4589598)
We also can't dismiss it out of hand. Just out of curiosity, have the snarkers in this thread ever played competitively at any level? I'm not trying to be snarky myself, BTW. I am honestly curious.


I am totally on board with athletes are humans and human stuff - like speeches, emotions, and in general treating players as something other than probabilistic sports event generators - is very important and in fact underrated here. But I still found the headline very overwrought (and I like snark, so there is that).

I have participated in many many competitive activities over my lifetime. And human things have influenced my performance (duh). Never played anything professional or semi-professional or anything like that. Jockey is my best fit for professional sports career, and I am a bit (EDIT: tiny bit) on the big side for that (and have zero interest or even much exposure to it).
   26. Dale Sams Posted: October 30, 2013 at 02:43 PM (#4589607)
And people say baseball is boring. PTTTTT

More than any other sport, (IMO) the narrative is greater. #### there was just a 300+ thread about a PH appearance that didn't happen for a winning team!
   27. What Zupcic? Posted: October 30, 2013 at 02:43 PM (#4589608)
But I still found the headline very overwrought (and I like snark, so there is that).


The local paper that covers the local team said that the team's superstar making a speech followed immediately by a pivotal world series home run COULD be a signature moment is 'vomit-inductively overwrought'? That seems like an extreme oversell. Next time someone says 'man, remember when Papi got the team all fired up in the dugout followed by Gomes homering/Varitek fought A-Rod/ Schilling pitched with a bloody sock? That was great!' I'll just rhetorically ask them to point to where those moments are on a win expectancy table. WHEN WILL YOU PEASANTS LEARN SOME MATH?!
   28. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: October 30, 2013 at 02:44 PM (#4589609)
I am honestly curious.


LAN parties in their mother's basements, duh.

I don't think Ortiz's pep talk can be judged to have either had an effect or not had an effect, but to categorically rule out any impact is just as silly as saying that it was the reason Gomes hit a home run.

I do think anyone who is irritated at the talk being brought up in the home town's local paper are killjoys.
   29. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 30, 2013 at 02:45 PM (#4589610)
I have played. I do play. I don't dismiss human elements from sports by any stretch of the imagination. (See my arguments with Ray on the MGL/Farrel is an idiot thread.)

But I have a weak stomach for treacle and empty bromides like this article.
   30. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 30, 2013 at 02:46 PM (#4589615)
Good lord. I just watched the video clip of the great oration. That is all? Weak sauce.
   31. Dale Sams Posted: October 30, 2013 at 02:59 PM (#4589630)
Good lord. I just watched the video clip of the great oration. That is all? Weak sauce.


Do you speak Spanish? You missed him give the entirety of the St. Crispin Day's Speech from memory.

"Nos alegre banda de hombres!"

I have played. I do play


But do you lift?
   32. Nasty Nate Posted: October 30, 2013 at 03:01 PM (#4589633)
Good lord. I just watched the video clip of the great oration. That is all? Weak sauce.


Yeah, "just" watched.
   33. Bitter Mouse Posted: October 30, 2013 at 03:42 PM (#4589668)
Red Sox David Ortiz’s pep talk could be signature moment in this World Series


That headline - which is alone what brought me to the thread - is overwrought. Sorry it just is. Signature moments occur on the field (well except for maybe something like the Earthquake World Series). A speech is a nice human interest bit and may have helped the team. It is not the Signature Moment.

It was good snark fodder. But the post to snark ratio has gone downhill on this thread, sadly.
   34. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: October 30, 2013 at 03:43 PM (#4589671)
This was a human moment during a human event. To think words between teammates have no place in athletic contests ignores reality. Can we quantity how such stuff impacts the results? No we can't. We also can't dismiss it out of hand. Just out of curiosity, have the snarkers in this thread ever played competitively at any level? I'm not trying to be snarky myself, BTW. I am honestly curious.

This would have a bit more credibility if Ortiz's teammates weren't hitting .156 in the World Series. Would they have hit .056 without the talk?
   35. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 30, 2013 at 03:44 PM (#4589672)
But do you lift?


Early and often, baby girl.
   36. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 30, 2013 at 03:58 PM (#4589692)
This would have a bit more credibility if Ortiz's teammates weren't hitting .156 in the World Series. Would they have hit .056 without the talk?


Well, they're 9 for 45 (.200) since The Talk. If that's not conclusive, I don't know what is.
   37. SG Posted: October 30, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4589730)
For the 8 millionth time, there is zero evidence Ortiz did any banned/illegal substance. Zero.


If you keep telling yourself this, maybe one day you'll actually believe it.

A failed test, for whatever reason, is not zero evidence.
   38. tfbg9 Posted: October 30, 2013 at 05:32 PM (#4589814)
If you keep telling yourself this, maybe one day you'll actually believe it. A failed test, for whatever reason, is not zero evidence.


A reporter says a guy, a guy whose name he will not disclose, saw Ortiz's name on a list. There's no 2nd source, nothing but the reporter saying the guy said it. That's not evidence. In fact, that's bad reporting, and bad journalism on the part the people the
reporter works for, who chose to go with the "story" in the first place, rather than ask for more solid sourcing, which doesn't f*cking exist, or they would have used it in the first place.

One unnamed guy saying he saw something aint evidence. For all we know the guy made the whole f*cking story up, like Jason Blair. It was at the NY Times, same paper that ran all that made-up stuff. Why should we take their word ever again, especially on any "story" like this?

We don't have a failed test. We have a guy saying a guy told him he saw a list.

   39. Leroy Kincaid Posted: October 30, 2013 at 07:47 PM (#4589926)
These things are usually only mentioned when there's some positive effect following it. That's some kinda logical fallacy usually stated in Latin, ain't it? This can't have been the only time Ortiz has talked pep. Football teams get themselves all psyched up before every game but only half of them win. Is the amount of pepiness the difference maker?
   40. Ardo Posted: October 30, 2013 at 11:51 PM (#4590871)
He won a truck! HE WON A TRUCK!!!
   41. Howie Menckel Posted: October 31, 2013 at 12:03 AM (#4590899)

"A reporter says a guy, a guy whose name he will not disclose, saw Ortiz's name on a list. There's no 2nd source, nothing but the reporter saying the guy said it. That's not evidence. In fact, that's bad reporting, and bad journalism on the part the people the reporter works for, who chose to go with the "story" in the first place, rather than ask for more solid sourcing, which doesn't f*cking exist, or they would have used it in the first place."

It's really really really really really hard for a public figure to sue - but this might have been one of them. #crickets
   42. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 31, 2013 at 12:13 AM (#4590907)
If you keep telling yourself this, maybe one day you'll actually believe it. A failed test, for whatever reason, is not zero evidence.

If anything can sometimes give a (false) sense of credibility to the defenders of steroid users, it's the propensity of so many steroids hardliners to give credence to rumors and undocumented accusations. David Ortiz is not Barry Bonds or Mark McGwire, and no amount of "I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'" can make it so. Put up or STFU.
   43. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: October 31, 2013 at 02:11 AM (#4590961)
We don't have a failed test. We have a guy saying a guy told him he saw a list.
David Ortiz, the greatest single-season home run hitter in Red Sox history, yesterday acknowledged testing positive for a performance-enhancing drug in 2003 as he launched his golden era as one of the game’s premier power hitters.....Ortiz said the Major League Baseball Players Association later confirmed to him that the report of his positive test was accurate.

“Based on the way I have lived my life, I am surprised to learn I tested positive,’’ he said in his statement. “I will find out what I tested positive for. And, based on whatever I learn, I will share this information with my club and the public. You know me - I will not hide and I will not make excuses.’’

Hmmm......
   44. tfbg9 Posted: October 31, 2013 at 08:59 AM (#4591026)
And MLB and the MLBPA came out at the presser and said, without saying it directly, "Ortiz was a false positive or a supplement poz" as were 8 or whatever other names."

They did this for no other player. Not for Arod, Sosa, Manny, etc.

Yeah yeah yeah...I know, George Mitchell.

Schmidt's story would fail Journo 101. I am not saying Ortiz never took anything, I am saying this "story" is crap. Get another, on the record source, or eat it.



   45. dave h Posted: October 31, 2013 at 09:54 AM (#4591065)
A failed test, for whatever reason, is not zero evidence.


"We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence."
   46. tfbg9 Posted: October 31, 2013 at 10:51 AM (#4591110)
Here is a good summary of why the entire Times "story" is total horsesh1t:

http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/no-smearing-in-the-press-box-iii-big-papi-vindicates-cstb-blowhard-michael-s-schmidt-commences-damage-control
   47. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: October 31, 2013 at 12:11 PM (#4591185)
Here is a good summary of why the entire Times "story" is total horsesh1t

Fine, but the MLBPA told Ortiz that he tested positive. Where in the story you quoted does it say Ortiz's was a false positive? How could anyone know that he was or wasn't a false positive?
   48. tfbg9 Posted: October 31, 2013 at 12:20 PM (#4591191)
Where in the story you quoted does it say Ortiz's was a false positive? How could anyone know that he was or wasn't a false positive?


They can't say one way or the other--they are not allowed to. But the fact that they went out there and went through the whole presser, etc. to remind everybody that there were ~10%, or whatever, false positives on the list tells me that they were saying Papi was a a then-legal-now-banned supplement/false poz without actually saying so, since this is something they did not do for any other name supposedly linked from the "list". They didn't do this for Arod, for Sosa, for Manny, for any other player but David Ortiz. I'm hanging my hat on that, that and the story is sh1t journalism from a newspaper that been coasting on its rep for greatness since about when Walter Duranty was winning awards from other hard partisans for making sh1t up that they printed as news, no questions asked.

Or it was George Mitchell, Puppet Master, protecting Ortiz. Whatever. Papi pees into cups like every other player. Has been for 10 years.

I'm outta here. I just won The F*cking WS.

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