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Thursday, October 04, 2012

Red Sox dismiss Valentine after trying year | MLB.com: News

The people responsible for this hiring, the way the coaching staff was assembled, and the shift from a baseball operations centered approach to a marketing centered approach of running this franchise should be *relieved* of their duties as well.

Thank goodness this Red Sox season is over.

Bobby Valentine’s tenure as the manager of the Red Sox lasted less than a calendar year. Boston relieved him of his duties on Thursday, a day after a disappointing regular season came to an end.

Edit: Link fixed. JF

Jim Furtado Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:05 PM | 77 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: red sox

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   1. winnipegwhip Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:13 PM (#4253947)
Only the Red Sox organization could get me to feel sorry for Bobby Valentine's fortunes.
   2. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4253950)
YAY!
   3. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4253952)
ESPN showed a clip of Valentine going around the field hours before the game hugging every member of the team. The facial expressions and body language from most of the players was not unlike that of someone being hugged by a hated, drunken family member.
   4. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4253956)
Okay, so what kind of coach do they go to now? By-the-book hardass? Laid-back players' friend? Nerd? Zombie Billy Martin?
   5. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:18 PM (#4253958)
Good bye #######. I hope the door hits you in the ass a few times on your way out.
   6. JJ1986 Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4253961)
Okay, so what kind of coach do they go to now? By-the-book hardass? Laid-back players' friend? Nerd? Zombie Billy Martin?


I'll bet they get Gene Lamont.
   7. The Mighty Quintana Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4253964)
Probabaly need to hire a teacher/mentor type. Somebody fairly young who can grow with this team. 'Cause they really need to go youth movement/5yr plan next year....
   8. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:21 PM (#4253967)
Dumb idea to begin with, mercifully put out of its misery.
   9. karlmagnus Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4253969)
Now they're desperate to get Farrell, and will presumably have to compensate Toronto with prospects if they do (I don't mind if compensation is $$$, it's not my money.)I don't see any evidence Farrell is anything special.

What's wrong with Ryne Sandberg, who has the experience, is desperate for a ML job and would be instantly credible as a HOF player? -- no compensation needed there, I don't think, as he's in AAA.

If they hire Farrell and give up a worthwhile prospect or two, it's further evidence of this lot's ineptitude.
   10. Good cripple hitter Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4253983)
What's wrong with Ryne Sandberg, who has the experience, is desperate for a ML job and would be instantly credible as a HOF player? -- no compensation needed there, I don't think, as he's in AAA.


Ryno just got promoted, he's now the Phillies' third base coach.
   11. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4253998)
Linky no worky upstairs.

What about the rest of the coaching staff?
   12. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:38 PM (#4254008)
What is next year's lineup, anyway?

C - Salty (28)/Lavarnaway (25)
1B - ???
2B - Petunia (29)
SS - Iglesias? (23)
3B - Middlebrooks (24)
LF - Kalish (24)
CF - Ellsbury (29)
RF - ???
DH - ???

A few well spent dollars could make this team very, very good in short order. They're young enough to retool a last winner on the fly.
   13. The Non-Catching Molina (sjs1959) Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:41 PM (#4254013)
   14. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4254016)
Praise Jeebus. Let the healing begin!

I was hoping they'd use Urbina to deliver the news to Valentine.
   15. Bourbon Samurai Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4254019)
Hmm Schilling does need some money...

or Pedroia can player manage.
   16. Nasty Nate Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4254020)
What is next year's lineup, anyway?


Here's my imaginary (and wildly unlikely) lineup:

Ellsbury CF
Pedroia 2B
Hamilton LF
Ortiz DH
Napoli 1B
Middlebrooks 3B
Kalish RF
S Drew SS
Salty C
   17. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4254026)
I'll be very surprised if Cody Ross and David Ortiz aren't part of that lineup next year. I think even at a big number ($15-16 per) Ortiz on a two year deal isn't going to tie the Sox' hands long term. I think Ross is well liked and probably likes it here. It really is a perfect ballpark for him.
   18. The District Attorney Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4254028)
so what kind of coach do they go to now? By-the-book hardass? Laid-back players' friend? Nerd? Zombie Billy Martin?
Ozzie Guillen.
   19. Jim Wisinski Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4254035)
"Trying" isn't a very accurate word to use in relation to the 2012 Red Sox in general or Bobby Valentine in particular
   20. winnipegwhip Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4254039)
Manager for 2013 .....Barack Obama
   21. Dread Pirate Dave Roberts Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4254040)
The people responsible for this hiring, the way the coaching staff was assembled, and the shift from a baseball operations centered approach to a marketing centered approach of running this franchise should be *relieved* of their duties as well.


Seriously. I remember a phone call I got from a "marketing survey" group in the summer of 2010 asking me about the Red Sox and my viewing habits. Such questions as, "Have you watched the Red Sox less this year because they didn't sign any big name free agents this offseason? Would your interest in the team increase or decrease if they signed a big name free agent this coming offseason?" Etc.

Not being a marketing person and being a huge baseball fan, I gave the BBTF-approved correct answers to these questions. Never did I realize that this was the beginning of the end of the team's competent baseball operational structure. No wonder Theo got out.
   22. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4254042)
Okay, so what kind of coach do they go to now? By-the-book hardass? Laid-back players' friend? Nerd? Zombie Billy Martin?


The Phillies just dropped Pete Mackanin. He's done well as an interim twice, and would probably make a pretty good manager. Kind of middling on the buddy vs. hardass scale, but always remarkably drama-free, which might be a nice change after this year.
   23. Nasty Nate Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4254044)
I'll be very surprised if Cody Ross and David Ortiz aren't part of that lineup next year. I think even at a big number ($15-16 per) Ortiz on a two year deal isn't going to tie the Sox' hands long term. I think Ross is well liked and probably likes it here. It really is a perfect ballpark for him.


You are probably right. If you sub Ross in for Hamilton and shuffle the order a little, my lineup in #16 becomes much more plausible.
   24. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4254047)
so what kind of coach do they go to now? By-the-book hardass? Laid-back players' friend? Nerd? Zombie Billy Martin?


Maury Wills.
   25. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4254050)
Cherington's talked a lot about the team wanting both Ortiz and Ross back. Hopefully those deals will get done.
   26. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:53 PM (#4254054)
Seriously. I remember a phone call I got from a "marketing survey" group in the summer of 2010 asking me about the Red Sox and my viewing habits. Such questions as, "Have you watched the Red Sox less this year because they didn't sign any big name free agents this offseason? Would your interest in the team increase or decrease if they signed a big name free agent this coming offseason?" Etc.

This really happened? First time I've ever heard of something like this.

Holy sh*t.
   27. Dread Pirate Dave Roberts Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:53 PM (#4254055)
Wasn't it already a 99% certainty that Brad Mills was going to be the next manager? Or has he gotten a job elsewhere and I've missed it?
   28. Nasty Nate Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4254058)
Wasn't it already a 99% certainty that Brad Mills was going to be the next manager? Or has he gotten a job elsewhere and I've missed it?


neither
   29. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4254061)
He hasn't gotten a job (I don't think) but I don't think he's a certainty. Farrell seems to be the front runner right now.
   30. Dread Pirate Dave Roberts Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4254062)
as, "Have you watched the Red Sox less this year because they didn't sign any big name free agents this offseason? Would your interest in the team increase or decrease if they signed a big name free agent this coming offseason?" Etc.

This really happened? First time I've ever heard of something like this.

Holy sh*t.


Yes it did. Couldn't believe it myself. They asked questions about specific players -- on a rating scale of 1 to 5, how much do you like this player? Was stunning.

Remember, this was 2010 -- the year that John Lackey was the big free agent signing. There were a lot of comments in the media about NESN's ratings decreasing that spring.
   31. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: October 04, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4254066)

Yes it did. Couldn't believe it myself. They asked questions about specific players -- on a rating scale of 1 to 5, how much do you like this player? Was stunning.

Remember, this was 2010 -- the year that John Lackey was the big free agent signing. There were a lot of comments in the media about NESN's ratings decreasing that spring.


That is depressing as hell. So if it was the summer of 2010, this was after the Lackey signing.

And then they signed Crawford that offseason.

Holy smokes. Theo wasn't lying when he said on the radio earlier this year there were a lot of moves being pressured on him in the wake of things like Jason Bay leaving.
   32. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:00 PM (#4254072)
Seriously. I remember a phone call I got from a "marketing survey" group in the summer of 2010 asking me about the Red Sox and my viewing habits. Such questions as, "Have you watched the Red Sox less this year because they didn't sign any big name free agents this offseason? Would your interest in the team increase or decrease if they signed a big name free agent this coming offseason?" Etc.


Maybe I'm naive but I assumed most teams did that sort of thing. Why wouldn't you be doing marketing surveys like that? Obviously making moves based solely on those surveys would be a mistake but I'd at least want the data if I was John Henry.
   33. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:00 PM (#4254074)
At this great moment in history I just want to thank the geniuses in the Red Sox organization for providing the rest of the baseball world with seven months of nonstop entertainment. I wish Mr. Valentine well, and I would like to point out that Mr. Zimmer and Mr. Little are currently available as replacements.
   34. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:08 PM (#4254092)
Sox partisans are kidding themselves if they think Bobby V was the reason for the team's preciptous decline. The roster isn't that good, the organization is dysfunctional, and the team was crippled by injuries this year.
   35. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4254097)
Wow, that came out of nowhere.
   36. Dale Sams Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:14 PM (#4254111)
2013: 75 wins at most.
   37. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:14 PM (#4254113)
Wow, that came out of nowhere.


It's that damned west coast bias Larry.
   38. Nasty Nate Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:17 PM (#4254119)
Sox partisans are kidding themselves if they think Bobby V was the reason for the team's preciptous decline. The roster isn't that good, the organization is dysfunctional, and the team was crippled by injuries this year.


The Sox fans I've talked to here (and elsewhere) recognize that the dysfunction predates Valentine and don't blame him for everything but also don't (didn't) want him to be manager next year.
   39. jmurph Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:20 PM (#4254129)
Sox partisans are kidding themselves if they think Bobby V was the reason for the team's preciptous decline.


Luckily, I'm pretty sure absolutely no one thinks that, so we're all set.
   40. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4254135)
Oh please god hire Larry Bowa.
   41. RJ in TO Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4254138)
Now they're desperate to get Farrell, and will presumably have to compensate Toronto with prospects if they do (I don't mind if compensation is $$$, it's not my money.)I don't see any evidence Farrell is anything special.


Boston is welcome to Farrell. As you note, he sure doesn't seem to be anything special, and I can't think of anything he seemed to do well in the last two years in Toronto.
   42. BDC Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:33 PM (#4254164)
Have you watched the Red Sox less this year because they didn't sign any big name free agents this offseason?

I watched them less this year because when the Red Sox come to Arlington on Wednesday Dollar Hot Dog Night, the Rangers cancel Dollar Hot Dog Night and charge $4 for a hot dog.
   43. The District Attorney Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:46 PM (#4254200)
If you want to re-live the magic one more time, Alex Speier has compiled "A Year of Chaos: The Bobby Valentine Timeline".

And I don't know what would make you think that Josh Hamilton/Mike Napoli would turn out any better than Carl Crawford/Adrian Gonzalez.
   44. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4254201)

Here's my imaginary (and wildly unlikely) lineup:

Ellsbury CF
Pedroia 2B
Hamilton LF
Ortiz DH
Napoli 1B
Middlebrooks 3B
Kalish RF
S Drew SS
Salty C


After TEH TRADE, that's totally plausible, and it would probably be a major force in 2013-14. One thing to note is that you'd probably be locking into a whole mess of decline phases if you actually got all of those players. Granted, that's kind of baked in to any FA splurge, but it seems particularly present here.
   45. Nasty Nate Posted: October 04, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4254220)
Granted, that's kind of baked in to any FA splurge, but it seems particularly present here.


I was going to say that it's less present here because the FA's would all be 30-32 to start the deal, but I forgot about including Ortiz. Either way, it's probably more likely that they don't sign Hamilton and use their money on pitching and/or an Ellsbury extension.
   46. JJ1986 Posted: October 04, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4254234)
If you want to re-live the magic one more time, Alex Speier has compiled "A Year of Chaos: The Bobby Valentine Timeline".


What is this doing in the middle of the piece?

July 10, 2012

Bud Selig criticizes Pelotero, a documentary on the amateur signing process in the Dominican Republic for which Red Sox manager Bobby Valentine served as executive producer, as inaccurate, dated and unfair.
   47. Jim Furtado Posted: October 04, 2012 at 03:06 PM (#4254235)
The Sox fans I've talked to here (and elsewhere) recognize that the dysfunction predates Valentine and don't blame him for everything but also don't (didn't) want him to be manager next year.
Valentine wasn't the disease. He was just a symptom of the front office dysfunction.
   48. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 04, 2012 at 03:07 PM (#4254240)
What is this doing in the middle of the piece?

July 10, 2012

Bud Selig criticizes Pelotero, a documentary on the amateur signing process in the Dominican Republic for which Red Sox manager Bobby Valentine served as executive producer, as inaccurate, dated and unfair.


It was a bit of a story when it happened. Nothing major but one more minor media event associated with Valentine during the season.
   49. Swedish Chef Posted: October 04, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4254265)
I was going to say that it's less present here because the FA's would all be 30-32 to start the deal, but I forgot about including Ortiz.

They're older than the Red Sox last disastrous batch of big contracts though.
   50. TomH Posted: October 04, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4254276)
The Ray's bench coach. He communicates well, from a successful org. That's my guess.
   51. I Fought Vance Law and Vance Law Won Posted: October 04, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4254285)
It will be interesting to see if they make a push to (re-)sign Youk.
   52. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: October 04, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4254286)
What is next year's lineup, anyway?

C - Salty (28)/Lavarnaway (25)
1B - ???
2B - Petunia (29)
SS - Iglesias? (23)
3B - Middlebrooks (24)
LF - Kalish (24)
CF - Ellsbury (29)
RF - ???
DH - ???

A few well spent dollars could make this team very, very good in short order. They're young enough to retool a last winner on the fly.


I was going to say that this lineup seems further away than "a few well spent dollars", but then I remembered that I'm an A's fan. So sure...anyone can win a division. I've seen it with me own eyes. Ganbatte!
   53. SoSH U at work Posted: October 04, 2012 at 03:29 PM (#4254289)
The Ray's bench coach. He communicates well, from a successful org. That's my guess.


That's Dave Martinez, right? I'd be OK with that (with the caveat we know almost nothing about what kind of manager any of these guys would make, and the teams know only slightly more).
   54. SandyRiver Posted: October 04, 2012 at 03:29 PM (#4254290)
Valentine wasn't the disease. He was just a symptom of the front office dysfunction.

Quite true, though IMO he played a significant role in moving an already sick "patient" onto the critical list.
   55. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: October 04, 2012 at 03:31 PM (#4254294)
46 - It merited inclusion.
   56. Nasty Nate Posted: October 04, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4254302)
It will be interesting to see if they make a push to (re-)sign Youk.


I would doubt it. Also, the White Sox could potentially exercise their option on him.
   57. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 04, 2012 at 03:41 PM (#4254319)
I love Youk but I don't want him re-signed. I really want this organization to do something that the fan base will HATE. Hire Bucky Dent, sign Luke Scott, just make a move or two that shows that getting some good press on December 11th is not the goal.
   58. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4254369)
Did anybody see ESPN when they broke the firing news? Apparently, they had two clips lined up; one where Valentine keeps his job, and one where he gets fired, and they ran the wrong one. It went for three minutes before they chopped it off midsentence and cut back to Mc Kendry.
   59. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:17 PM (#4254378)
Fine work by ESPN.
   60. KJOK Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:35 PM (#4254410)
Oh please god hire Larry Bowa.


Or Tony LaRussa.
   61. Mattbert Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:42 PM (#4254425)
Did anybody see ESPN when they broke the firing news? Apparently, they had two clips lined up; one where Valentine keeps his job, and one where he gets fired, and they ran the wrong one. It went for three minutes before they chopped it off midsentence and cut back to Mc Kendry.

That was a certain Primate f**king with us.
   62. donlock Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:44 PM (#4254432)
C - Salty (28)/Lavarnaway (25)
1B - ???
2B - Petunia (29)
SS - Iglesias? (23)
3B - Middlebrooks (24)
LF - Kalish (24)
CF - Ellsbury (29)
RF - ???
DH - ???

A few well spent dollars could make this team very, very good in short order. They're young enough to retool a last winner on the fly.


Don't know what "retool a last winner on the fly means".

That looks like a terrible lineup, even with Ortiz, Ross and a 1B. Probably the worst in the AL East. Would assume they weren't going to throw tons of money at free agents like Hamilton, LaRouche, Napoli, Edwin Jackson (8 years at $15-25 million?)as they might have learned from the Big Trade. They have more money than the Pirates , Indians and Royals but they have no more talent on the field, on the farm or in the front office.

The lineup they have been playing the last few weeks is scary bad, indicating the high minors are empty. Very little to trade on the roster as the few quality players are injury prone. The ability to spend money was always a big part of the Boston success. If they are not going to get into long-range expensive contracts with older/marginal talents, where will the better players come from?
   63. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4254435)
1B - ???


Mauro Gomez!

What? I'm allowed to have favorites...
   64. Nasty Nate Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4254448)
That looks like a terrible lineup, even with Ortiz, Ross and a 1B. Probably the worst in the AL East.


Well it all depends on the 1B, but that lineup looks like it's at the same level as the O's, Jays, and Rays (all of whom they outscored in 2012).

I wouldn't assume that the Sox are never going to give out a big FA deal, either.
   65. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 04, 2012 at 05:46 PM (#4254526)
Mr. Zimmer and Mr. Little are currently available as replacements.

Other experienced managers available include Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, Lou Piniella, Tommy LaSorda & Joe Torre. Since the Red Sox are probably a few years away from contending, I expect them to go younger.
   66. asinwreck Posted: October 04, 2012 at 06:07 PM (#4254555)
The anonymously-sourced smear jobs in the Boston media will be fun to read.
   67. The District Attorney Posted: October 04, 2012 at 07:10 PM (#4254609)
Other experienced managers available include Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, Lou Piniella, Tommy LaSorda & Joe Torre.
Jeez... this is the team that birthed the "Whitey Herzog would listen" meme! You muffed that one.

The anonymously-sourced smear jobs in the Boston media will be fun to read.
Will they even be necessary this time?
   68. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: October 04, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4254618)
There are reports of the Red Sox scouting Ike Davis. There are rumblings that Justin Upton (and other Diamondbacks) will be available. Could the Sox pull off a couple trades like that, with their farm system?
   69. Dan Evensen Posted: October 04, 2012 at 08:18 PM (#4254646)
Well, this didn't take long.

I'm actually surprised that they kept him for the duration of the season.
   70. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 04, 2012 at 08:57 PM (#4254674)
There are reports of the Red Sox scouting Ike Davis. There are rumblings that Justin Upton (and other Diamondbacks) will be available. Could the Sox pull off a couple trades like that, with their farm system?


I think you can expect the Sox to be involved (at least by the press) in any trade or free agent negotiation between now and Spring Training. Having said that the system should be able to accommodate at least one major deal. They've got at least one substantial prospect in Bogaerts then a whole bunch of guys (Webster, de la Rosa, Bradley, Barnes) who depending on the evaluator are going to be pretty well sought after (I read Webster was the guy the Cubs were asking for in exchange for Dempster). Beyond those guys they have enough depth to build a 3-4 player deal that is pretty good. What they don't have is a top 10-15 guy though if teams think Bogaerts can stay at short he's probably that high. That doesn't seem to be the expectation though.

The anonymously-sourced smear jobs in the Boston media will be fun to read.


Anyone smart is going to make sure they get credit for a smear job. Bobby's not exactly a popular dude in the Boston area.
   71. Don Malcolm Posted: October 04, 2012 at 08:59 PM (#4254675)
This just in...the Red Sox have acquired Alfonso Soriano from the Chicago Cubs in exchange for John Lackey--and Bill James.
   72. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: October 04, 2012 at 10:02 PM (#4254729)
The anonymously-sourced smear jobs in the Boston media will be fun to read.

Boston Herald reports Bobby V was stealing painkillers from Francona
   73. 'Spos Posted: October 04, 2012 at 10:07 PM (#4254733)
There are reports of the Red Sox scouting Ike Davis...


Would Ike Davis even want to manage the Sox?
   74. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: October 04, 2012 at 10:31 PM (#4254739)
Let's see, team that currently sucks, but may be a couple of years from being very good. Sounds like Manny Acta's job for 2013-2014.
   75. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: October 04, 2012 at 10:53 PM (#4254758)
Or Jim Riggleman's.
   76. Greg Franklin Posted: October 04, 2012 at 11:03 PM (#4254768)
Jeez... this is the team that birthed the "Whitey Herzog would listen" meme! You muffed that one.


If Gary DiSarcina got called, sure, he'd listen.
   77. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: October 05, 2012 at 01:14 AM (#4254830)
Jeez... this is the team that birthed the "Whitey Herzog would listen" meme! You muffed that one.

another thread

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