Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Tuesday, June 05, 2012

Red Sox option Daniel Bard to Triple-A

Departing to Pawtucket is such sweet sorrow…

While it was assumed that the struggling Daniel Bard would soon be dispatched to the bullpen, the Red Sox have taken the more drastic step of optioning Bard to Triple-A Pawtucket, Pete Abraham of the Boston Globe reports.

Bard has labored badly as a starter this season, and in his most recent outing he exhibited a complete lack of command and control. It could be that Bard’s repertoire isn’t deep enough for starting detail, it could be that he has trouble repeating his delivery, it could be mounting fatigue, or it could be mental in nature. Whatever the case, it’s clear the Red Sox believe that a less pressurized environment and a focus on instruction are what Bard needs. Given the results to date, it’s hard to argue otherwise.

Repoz Posted: June 05, 2012 at 04:47 PM | 39 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: minors, red sox

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: June 05, 2012 at 05:15 PM (#4149119)
Wow. Can't say I disagree with this move, but there's not really an obvious guy to replace him at this point.
   2. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: June 05, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4149120)
This is exactly what happened when he was a starter in the minors before. He only corrected the Steve Blass disease after converting to relief.
   3. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: June 05, 2012 at 05:51 PM (#4149145)
This is exactly what happened when he was a starter in the minors before. He only corrected the Steve Blass disease after converting to relief.


Bard had bad control at first, just like in college. The full-on Steve Blass thing only started when he went to Lancaster, which a lot of people blamed on the park or the atmosphere or whatever it was that produced an average of 13.9 runs per RiverHawks game that year.
   4. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 05, 2012 at 05:56 PM (#4149148)
I posted this in Sox Therapy today but what the hell:

---

I liked the move of Bard to the rotation, but he flopped about as spectacularly as could have been imagined. More walks than Ks, and the leader of the free world in hit batters. I'd say he might be injured, and he might be, but he walked 9 men per 9 innings while starting in the minors also.

But he has a winning record! Almost.

At this point I'd just move him back to the pen and leave him alone.

   5. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 05, 2012 at 05:59 PM (#4149152)
Wow. Can't say I disagree with this move, but there's not really an obvious guy to replace him at this point.


He has 0 WAR, and it's well deserved. Pretty much any pitcher at AA or AAA could replace him.
   6. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: June 05, 2012 at 06:13 PM (#4149166)
He has 0 WAR, and it's well deserved. Pretty much any pitcher at AA or AAA could replace him.


Well maybe - although there's lots of below replacement level pitchers in AA and AAA - but by "obvious guy" I meant an actual good pitcher who would be clearly better than Bard.
   7. booond Posted: June 05, 2012 at 06:15 PM (#4149167)
The full-on Steve Blass thing only started when he went to Lancaster, which a lot of people blamed on the park or the atmosphere or whatever it was that produced an average of 13.9 runs per RiverHawks game that year.


He walked 56 in 61.2 innings in Low A before going to Lancaster. He has consistently struggled with control as a starter. That said, if he isn't hurt, it hurts no one right now to continue the experiment.
   8. RJ in TO Posted: June 05, 2012 at 06:23 PM (#4149173)
That said, if he isn't hurt, it hurts no one right now to continue the experiment.

Except for the batters he keeps drilling because he currently has no clue as to where the ball is going. In his game against the Jays, he was "Someone's going to get killed" wild.
   9. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: June 05, 2012 at 06:34 PM (#4149178)
Wow. Can't say I disagree with this move, but there's not really an obvious guy to replace him at this point.

He has 0 WAR, and it's well deserved. Pretty much any pitcher at AA or AAA could replace him.
It looks like the Sox are lining up Dice-K to take the start on Saturday.
   10. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: June 05, 2012 at 06:55 PM (#4149193)
I've been about a big a fan of sticking through tough times, and sticking with Bard as a starter, because the upside is too good.

He's had a number of starts where his earned runs suggest a more effective performance than the rest of the numbers suggest. But he's only had one really good start (April 27th, which coincidentally was after his one relief appearance this year), where he pitched into the 8th inning, 2 ER, 6 Ks, only 1 BB.

Then, he had several starts where he pitched 6 or 7 innings, gave up only one or two ER, but walked the ballpark in the process - and, frankly, probably got pretty lucky not to give up a lot more runs.

Of course, we're now going to replace him with Matsuzaka - who is the king of pitching 5 or 6 innings, giving up two or three runs, and walking the ballpark. Should be fun to watch. Real fun.
   11. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: June 05, 2012 at 06:58 PM (#4149197)
I've been about a big a fan of sticking through tough times, and sticking with Bard as a starter, because the upside is too good.
Well, the Red Sox have been pretty clear so far that they are sticking with Bard as a starter. They just want him to work out his issues starting in AAA.
   12. Xander Posted: June 05, 2012 at 07:14 PM (#4149209)
I've been about a big a fan of sticking through tough times, and sticking with Bard as a starter, because the upside is too good.
It's not. It's really not. Yea, he'll still throw relatively hard. But the effectiveness of his pitches fall off the table. It's not worth it.
   13. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: June 05, 2012 at 07:26 PM (#4149217)
It looks like the Sox are lining up Dice-K to take the start on Saturday.

I am detecting a Phil Coorey head explosion in 3, 2, 1 .....
   14. MM1f Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:04 AM (#4149498)
Toooold youuu soooo....
   15. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:20 AM (#4149500)
I am detecting a Phil Coorey head explosion in 3, 2, 1 .....


I've got a beer festival to run!!!

I'm off the radar for a while boys with this and the Celtics!

Hope everyone's well though - hopefully Bard is just back to the bullpen soon.

Take care
   16. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:22 AM (#4149501)
That said, if he isn't hurt, it hurts no one right now to continue the experiment.


Except the Red Sox, because he's effective when he's in the pen, and he's a nothingburger everywhere else.
   17. Walt Davis Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:38 AM (#4149515)
I've got a beer festival to run!!!

When and where Phil? I'm moving to Wollongong in July.

Would you please get the Aussie microbrews to catch up to their far superior Kiwi counterparts? By July preferably. :-)
   18. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: June 06, 2012 at 08:44 AM (#4149589)
When and where Phil? I'm moving to Wollongong in July.

Would you please get the Aussie microbrews to catch up to their far superior Kiwi counterparts? By July preferably. :-)


You're moving to Australia - that is awesome!!

The festival is at my pub, The Spotted Cow - it's in Toowoomba in QLD . We are featuring the yeastie boys range from NZ - the boys were going to come over but pulled out. NZ craft beer is sensational - we are convinced the water is just so much better over there, hence the better beers!!

Here's a link with the schedule to the festival , the boilermaker session is looking great...

   19. Lassus Posted: June 06, 2012 at 09:20 AM (#4149615)
Walt, aren't you coming from New Zealand? Is everyone there offering condolences? I seem to recall that being the prevailing opinion of Australia when I was visiting.
   20. booond Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:48 AM (#4149678)
Except the Red Sox, because he's effective when he's in the pen, and he's a nothingburger everywhere else.


I was against the move from the beginning but they made the decision and the bullpen isn't a problem right now, which also shows the limited value of relievers if you can pull a bunch from the scrap heap. Get Bard down in AAA, see if he can clear his head, and if he can't then put him back in the 8th inning. They lose nothing extending the experiment another month or two, except time.
   21. squatto Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:56 AM (#4149687)
Chad Finn discusses the matter.

In the column he cites a Gordon Edes piece which is also worth a look. To summarize, give the experiment more time. Other pitchers have had growing pains making this transition, or gone through bouts of wildness yet had good starting careers. If it's still an issue he can be moved back to relief.
   22. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 06, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4149728)
I think Edes reaches a good conclusion but gets there awkwardly. That guys like Dempster, Scott, Seaver and Ryan (among others) walked six guys in two innings at some point in their long careers doesn't have relevance to a guy who did it in tenth MLB start. Bard has made ten starts this year and in three of them he has had more Ks than BBs and only once in his last seven.

Bard showed some flashes early on but that's about it. He has not built on what he did in April at all and looks lost right now. I'm not saying he should be mowing people down but I'm seeing a guy regressing, not progressing.
   23. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: June 06, 2012 at 12:05 PM (#4149767)
Interesting to compare Bard to Papelbon. Papelbon was actually effective in the minors as a starter and even had a 2.25 ERA in his only three MLB starts. But ironically it is Bard (who was a disaster as a starter in the minors) who gets switched.
   24. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4149899)
Voros, they briefly tried to switch Papelbon while in the majors, but IIRC he ultimately wanted to stay a reliever.

And I think he was having shoulder issues around the same time, so they were just like, why eff with it.
   25. Dan Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4149908)
Switching Papelbon back to a starter was supposed to HELP with his shoulder issues. It was scratched due to a. Joel Pineiro being signed as the other closing option and b. Papelbon himself prefering to stick with closing. I suspect that if the Sox had had it their way he would've been a starter for at least that season.
   26. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:53 PM (#4149910)
And I think he was having shoulder issues around the same time, so they were just like, why eff with it.


Papelbon came to 2007 Spring Training as a starter after missing all of September, 2006 with a shoulder problem.

I think part of it also was mentality. As Ray said Papelbon wanted to stay in the bullpen while Bard wanted to be a starter. Also, Papelbon was always a little crazy in the way that teams like from relievers while Bard comes across a bit more cerebral and I think the Sox felt his temperament was better suited to the rotation (not saying that's right or wrong, just part of the decision making process).
   27. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4149916)
There were a few jokes coming out of spring training in 2007 about how little Papelbon enjoyed the preparation that goes into starting pitching, and how he struggled to get through the reports given his illiteracy.
   28. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4149922)
#25, thanks, Dan. I stand corrected as to which way the shoulder thing was cutting.

I too like to see good relievers try starting, but I do think with a reliever of Papelbon's quality it is very defensible to leave him in the pen.
   29. Dan Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4149926)
For whatever reason, the medical staff believed that pitching once every 5 days for 100 pitches could be less stressful than loosening up and letting 10-30 pitches fly at max effort 2 or 3 times a week. I think it does make sense on some level , but who really knows which way leads to more stress on a shoulder?
   30. Nasty Nate Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4149935)
This talk of Papelbon made me think of the Sox Therapy posts which appeared every year from 2009 onward claiming that he was "done" and/or harboring a serious injury.
   31. Dan Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4149968)
This talk of Papelbon made me think of the Sox Therapy posts which appeared every year from 2009 onward claiming that he was "done" and/or harboring a serious injury.


And his fastball is down almost 2 MPH this season from last year, so you'd be seeing even more if they'd re-signed him.
   32. Benji Posted: June 06, 2012 at 06:35 PM (#4150189)
So, when does common sense take over and Ike Davis get sent down? It's almost like they have a vendetta against him by sending him on the field every night.
   33. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: June 06, 2012 at 07:41 PM (#4150238)
This talk of Papelbon made me think of the Sox Therapy posts which appeared every year from 2009 onward claiming that he was "done" and/or harboring a serious injury.


That was almost all Fly, right? Sort of like the series of Sox Therapy posts that appeared every year lionizing Dan Duquette and longing for the old days of his GMship.
   34. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 06, 2012 at 08:27 PM (#4150273)
Sort of like the series of Sox Therapy posts that appeared every year lionizing Dan Duquette and longing for the old days of his GMship.

Look what Duquette has done in only a few months with the Orioles.
   35. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 06, 2012 at 08:33 PM (#4150285)

Look what Duquette has done in only a few months with the Orioles.


He just signed Jamie Moyer. The balance of power in the AL East has shifted!
   36. Darren Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:29 PM (#4150391)
Duquette just wants a good trade chit so he can get his hands on Darren Bragg.
   37. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:48 PM (#4150406)
That's crazy talk. Darren Bragg is 42 years old!
   38. Darren Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:53 PM (#4150413)
Then he should be just about ready for the majors!
   39. jyjjy Posted: June 06, 2012 at 11:39 PM (#4150469)
For whatever reason, the medical staff believed that pitching once every 5 days for 100 pitches could be less stressful than loosening up and letting 10-30 pitches fly at max effort 2 or 3 times a week. I think it does make sense on some level , but who really knows which way leads to more stress on a shoulder?

Wouldn't looking at shoulder injury rates of starters vs relievers be an easy way to figure this out? In my memory it seems to happen a lot more to starters and that's even with each team having 1 or 2 more relievers than starters. Perhaps starting vs relieving tends to cause different kinds of shoulder issues and Papelbon's was one rare for starters so they thought the switch would help.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
dirk
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogThe Calm-Before-The-Storm and Postseason Prediction OMNICHATTER, 2014
(82 - 6:33am, Sep 30)
Last: Dr. Vaux

NewsblogESPN: Ron Gardenhire out after 13 Seasons with Twins
(31 - 6:26am, Sep 30)
Last: Dr. Vaux

NewsblogMadden: How dare the sabermetrics crowd and others try to diminish Derek Jeter’s greatness
(144 - 5:20am, Sep 30)
Last: cardsfanboy

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 2014 Discussion
(9 - 4:00am, Sep 30)
Last: shoewizard

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1958 Ballot
(9 - 2:49am, Sep 30)
Last: bjhanke

NewsblogMets close season optimistic for next year
(50 - 2:06am, Sep 30)
Last: CrosbyBird

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - September 2014
(392 - 1:53am, Sep 30)
Last: Gold Star - just Gold Star

NewsblogRBI Baseball, 2014 Playoff Edition
(2 - 1:42am, Sep 30)
Last: Harvey Berkman

NewsblogAttanasio discusses Brewers collapse, changes coming for 2015
(126 - 12:24am, Sep 30)
Last: greenback calls it soccer

NewsblogOT August 2014:  Wrassle Mania I
(261 - 12:10am, Sep 30)
Last: NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!)

NewsblogOT: NFL/NHL thread
(8138 - 11:55pm, Sep 29)
Last: PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth)

NewsblogBaseball Past & Present: Vote: The 25 Most Important People in Baseball History.
(281 - 11:54pm, Sep 29)
Last: Morty Causa

NewsblogRemembering George ‘Shotgun’ Shuba, 1924-2014
(4 - 11:25pm, Sep 29)
Last: Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66)

NewsblogThe Captain’s Log: Derek Jeter’s Lady-Killing Past, From ‘Yeah, Jeets!’ to Gift Baskets
(29 - 11:21pm, Sep 29)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 9-29-2014
(57 - 11:13pm, Sep 29)
Last: Walt Davis

Page rendered in 0.2057 seconds
52 querie(s) executed