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Just saying.
How about
Youkilis
Drew
Manny
Ortiz
Lowell
Varitek
Crisp
Lugo
Pedroia
Don't know if they'll keep Manny, or if they'll insist on speed at the top, or how often all those guys will be healthy. But if they ran that lineup out there 130 or so times, Ortiz might drive in 175 runs.
Also, not sure what Lugo's recent RBI totals have to do with anything.
Seems like a completely appropriate deal, if a year longer than ideal. I'd rather spend the money on a Lugo than a Padilla or Matthews. Lugo-Pedroia should be a good combo for at least the next few years; slide Youk back to third, if not this year then next; Ellsbury in center maybe starting next year. Plug a good platoon in a first base to save on cash. Etc.
Just saying.
Wow, Lugo had 37 million RBIs last season? What a bargain at this price!
Despite reports, I don't think Minaya was ever in the running.
That just means they'll only have to send the Mets 14 million dollars to take him off their hands next year.
All kidding aside, this offense is going to be scary if they keep Manny and Drew can stay healthy.
1) In hindsight make the lowball offer to Johnny Damon look silly (and the Yanks' offer, given the current market, look insightful)... and
2) Really drives the stake through the heart of "Boston Red Sox, Plucky Underdogs."
Good bye media-created provincial darlings... RIP
Can't believe we lost a draft pick for Edgar Renteria II
And we Dodger fans appreciate it.
20th pick for drew
1st round comp pick for Guzman+pedroza
eh.
20th pick for Lugo, plus the sandwich pick.
And yes, the trade for Lugo was still insanely stupid. But at least the Dodgers get two draft picks, including a reasonably high first.
I still don't understand the Lugo trade - why trade so much for a guy to be a supersub?
Career OPS = 92.
Shortstop descent 2004-2007
Pokey-Nomar-OC-Rentawreck-AGone/Cora-Lugo
Which is good for a shortstop, especially if it's OBP heavy.
Incidentally, you mean OPS+. If you are going to rag on a signing, at least get your terms of disparagement correct.
When do your comments get interesting?
Behind Rafael Furcal, who's better than any of those shortstops except Nomar at his peak.
Lugo didn't react well to bouncing around as a supersub.
yes i know. But in my head, we get the 20th pick for drew and first round comp for lugo.
It makes me feel betting for Boras effing the dodgers over again with the drew contract.
.330 .382 .532 .914
I just might be able to convince myself on this one...
The only part I don't like is the no arbitration clause. If the Dodgers were getting two draft picks for him, I'd be more than fine - he gave the Dodgers half a good season before a hbp in 2005, and was arguably the Dodgers best player in 2006. And didn't cost the Dodgers a draft pick when they signed him.
And good riddance.
Congratulations Sox, you have the third best SS in the division. Although to be fair $36M is chump change in this market.
Lugo is the third-best SS in the division, and appropriately enough, the third-highest-paid SS in the division, too.
The Red Sox are a lot better today than they were yesterday.
I don't like that GM, he makes lots of big-splash deals, but only because he's trading away parts of insane good system.
I don't even mind trading pospects, just do better than 1/2 season rentals of old and mediocre players.
He probably could have had Willis and Beckett in his staff right now.
Move Ortiz to 1b, Manny to DH. Trade Lowell...
Youkilis 3b
Drew cf
Ortiz 1b
Manny dh
Pena rf
Varitek c
Lugo ss
Crisp lf
Pedroia 2b
At least us non Red Sox fans won't have to hear about the great 2007 draft. Your picks belong to the Dodgers now. Small consolation.
Wrong. They'll just go over slot again...
How exactly did BORAS eff the dodgers over? Maybe...the DODGERS effed themselves over by allowing the clause for him to opt out?
Its either a bad signing(then you should be happy he opted out) or a good signing with a dumb escape clause.
Hi, my name is Sean McNally and I completely underestimate the influence of New Englanders and New England educated people in the media.
Hey Sean, the Yankees will still outspend the Red Sox by $50 mil when it's all said and done. I know you'd like to forget that, but it's still true. The Red Sox are still tremendous underdogs, payroll-wise, when compared to the Yankees.
That said, four years is much too long for Julio Lugo. By 2010, even I will be 30.
Then again, by 2010, 9 million bucks may be what you pay a back-up catcher.
But odds are he plays good next year. More, I'm happy about Drew and Matsuzaka, and this is just a piece next to that.
Philly's payroll stuff is useful, suggests the Sox will be a chunk over the luxury tax threshold this year, barring a Manny trade. That's a pretty big bump in payroll. Yankee fans appear to be quite scared of watching about a third of their team's massive previous advantage disappear. Fun.
While you're at SoSH, Eric M. Van arguing that the only useful data for projecting Julio Lugo is 2005, and 2006 before the trade to the Dodgers. Lugo reached a new level of ability in 2005 so previous numbers don't count, and then was so emotionally hurt by changing positions that his Dodgers numbers don't count. He's going to be totally awesome!
Remember the first time this happened when the Sox signed Matt Young, Jack Clark and Danny Darwin?
I love the Drew signing, and you left off Matsuzaka, who was the prize off the offseason for pretty much all the super-market clubs. Matsuzaka + Drew is a great offseason, all I coulda asked for. (Well, I coulda asked for Drew to be cheaper, but I still like his contract better than those of Lee, Soriano, MAtthews or Pierre.)
poor Wily mo pena, what happens to him now?
Wily Mo will probably start 80 games next year. He'll start against almost all lefties, and he'll probably get chances to rest Coco and Drew against righties, some, too. He'll start when one of the front three outfielders inevitably gets hurt, and he can give Ortiz a day off once a month or so.
What are the chances that AT LEAST one of Veronica, Manny, Wily Mo, and Crisp will be injured during any random time of the season? I don't need think to finish the quesiton to know our need for 4 OFs + a guy like Hinske that is a good LH bat and can play 4 field positions.
I like Crisp on the bench. He can defensive sub/pinch run for Manny, and he can start some games.
Hey Sean, the Yankees will still outspend the Red Sox by $50 mil when it's all said and done. I know you'd like to forget that, but it's still true. The Red Sox are still tremendous underdogs, payroll-wise, when compared to the Yankees.
Ah, there's nothing like a little ######## to sniff over my morning coffee.
they would get a better than league average OF to play LF at a very reasonable price for the next 3 yrs, and get rid of a setup man, who is finally starting to show some wear from being worked like a rented mule for 4 yrs..
So do I. He also took 20 walks in 300+ at bats last year. I think 370something.
My person goal for Wily Mo Pena is for him to take 35 walks in a whole year. If he can keep his .349 OBP like he did this year, his power TOTALLY justifies his bat in the lineup.
That should be the deal breaker in my opinion, but the way the media is talking up Linebrink, they make him sound like the second coming of Mariano Rivera waiting for a chance to close
Gee, I don't recall Renteria smacking his wife around.
First of all, I'm not sure that the gap will be that big when all is said and done. But the point, Darren, as you doubtless realize, is that the Red Sox payroll disadvantage is clearly just a matter of choice. They spend right up to the luxury tax threshold every year. When a new CBA increases that threshold by $30M, they increase their payroll by $36M in the blink of an eye. If I were a Red Sox fan, rather than drinkingthe limited resources kool-aid, I'd be pissed at them for putting an arbitrary limit on the use of their exceedingly ample resources to improve the quality of the product on the field. You have, in fact, expressed this sentiment yourself on several ocaisions. Yet it seems you still need to cling to some vestige of the whole unfair disadvantage myth, which actually makes Sean's point for him rather than refuting it.
David Glass has the money to buy every player in the world, as do a number of other owners. Lots of owners are making profits which aren't being spun back into the roster. This doesn't really affect the fans one way or the other.
That is, I'm a fan of the Red Sox, not of John Henry's business ventures. Whether Henry is funneling profits into an underground money pit or clipping coupons to cover the Sox payroll, the raw facts of the Sox budget are all that matter to fans. The Red Sox are thus disadvantaged to the Yankees by a large number of millions of dollars, while having an advantage of a smaller number of millions over the Mets, Cubs, Angels and Rangers and an advantage of a large number of millions over many other clubs. The background business details are unimportant.
I'm concerned about someone going from first to third on Damon's arm with Papi and Manny coming to the plate.
[Channeling Lee Corso] Not so fast my friend!
Using figures from Cot's and the back of this here envelope, here's what I have figured.
Boston has 22 players likely to be on their big league club next year:
Manny, Ortiz, Schilling, Drew, Clement, Lowell, Lugo, Varitek, Beckett, Hinske, Wakefield, Crisp, Tavarez, Timilin, Cora, Okajima, Pena, Hansen, Youkilis, Papelbon, Lester, Peoria.
If I haven't missed anyone and my math is more or less right - that'll be $128 million in commitments without Matsuzaka nor a closer and a 25th man - so Boston's payroll for '07 looks to be about $150ish million.
New York has 20 players that are likely to be on the '07 roster
ARod, Jeter, Giambi, Unit, Abreu, Damon, Matsui, Moose, Mo, Pavano, Farnsworth, Myers, Cano, Wang, Proctor, Phillips, Britton, Bruney, Melky.
Again, the Yanks appear likely to add some more players (Igawa and others) and payroll, but right now they have $158 million in commitments, so their opening day payroll is likely to be about $175-$180 million.
So, while there is a disparity, but it is certainly not the gap it once was and it's highly unlikely it will be $50 million. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night, Darren ;-)
I was convinced that Renteria wouldn't be good. In fact, I won a bet with MCOA on that, which might be the only I was right and he wrong.
I don't neccesarily think Lugo is an impact player, but the Sox had such a hole at SS and just filled it with a good player. It's kind of like the Bernie Williams effect. Damon was good, but Bernie had been so bad that it was a gigantic boost. Alex Cora would have been so terrible (PM SLWTS has him as 2 wins better then Gonzalez too), but now they have a good player there, with upside and speed, instead of a hole. Kinda changes everything for me. They are a very balanced and deep team right now.
Other than that, I agree with your point.
Dave Roberts, October 2004.
A year ago it would have hurt me to type this, but I can laugh about it now.
You put Youkilis, Drew, and Manny in front of Ortiz...
They WON'T walk Ortiz for Mike Lowell when there's a guy on 1, or guys on 1 and 2. They just won't. They'll pitch to him. And boom goes the dynamite. The only tiem they WON'T pitch to Ortiz is if the bases are empty or if there's a base open on 1B, and even that gets stupid. I mean, loading up the bases for Mike Lowell, forcing you to pitch to him? That's just retarded. He can still hurt you with the .475 SLG.
The best way to protect Ortiz is to make sure there's at least one guy on base when he comes up. And nobody on the Red Sox does that better than Manny.
Wow. Yankees are going cheap this year. I'll be pulling for these underdogs.
I'm not saying they should be seen as anyone's sentimental favorites, just that mythos around Boston's constant struggle to keep up with the Yankees, fed by their city's Napoleon complex, their GMs quotes and the Worldwide Leader's coverage, can now be taken out back, tied to a tree and bashed in the head with a shovel.
The Yankees payroll in the last couple years has been in the $190-200M range. I guess it's possible that they're cutting back spending, but Igawa + Pettitte would put them at $180M, and they need a first baseman, and hteir bench sucks. I think $50M seems about right.
People forget that Ortiz batted AFTER Manny for 2003 and 2004. So in the playoffs in 04, after 2 full seasons of .600 slugging so everyone knew how dangerous he was, he still saw plenty of pitches with guys on base (to the tune of 19 rbi in 14 games).
In fact, his walk totals went UP once he started hitting in front of Manny.
{{{is this a possibility: WM Pena traded for some set-up man who will close for Boston}}}
Does it make what the Red Sox are doing noble? No, but if that's all you're exercised about, that's pretty sad. I grant that the baseball team I root for is not also objectively the source of all good in the universe.
There are lots of teams which spend less than the Red Sox, and teams whose fans thus have a right to note that they're not competing on a totally even field. But the same is true of the Red Sox and Yankees.
I don't like IBB for anyone, but if I did, I would walk Ortiz to face Lowell anytime there was two outs, and probably in a dozen other situations too. Lowell had a good two months last year and has sucked hard for two years outside of that. I wouldn't expect a .475 SLG out of him again next year.
Lugo might out-perform his career averages for one year of this contract, but it's likely he'll decline over the length of the contract. That's what happens to mediocre players over 30.
And how is a .340 OBP "high"?
There is no indication that the lux tax won't be the limit for the RS - it has been (for whatever reason) the past few years, and each year they've been very close to that limit. I suppose they could blow by that this, but I don't expect it. So, a budget of roughly $140 seems about right. Which is a long winded way of writing that I agree with MCoA - they money is pretty much all gone.
Relative to Alex Gonzalez/Alex Cora's OBP
I don't like IBB for anyone, but if I did, I would walk Ortiz to face Lowell anytime there was two outs, and probably in a dozen other situations too. Lowell had a good two months last year and has sucked hard for two years outside of that. I wouldn't expect a .475 SLG out of him again next year.
I think Mike Lowell can repeat his performance last year.
It's really too bad Jason Varitek decided to excrete his feces on the bed last year.
If it will make McNally happier, I for one will stop referring to the Yankees as the Evil Empire, since Cashman has obviously been making a real effort to do economically sensible things. And I will also stipulate that the rich owners of the Red Sox have been indulging themselves a little--OK, a lot--by shopping at Neiman-Marcus, in the hopes of avoiding disappointment next October. The bottom line is '07 is shaping up to be big fun if you're a fan of this rivalry.
I mean, they nearly lost the division once, I think.
Tax threshold is $148M, right? Boston's payroll will be $147.9M.
The Red Sox are thus disadvantaged to the Yankees by a large number of millions of dollars, while having an advantage of a smaller number of millions over the Mets, Cubs, Angels and Rangers and an advantage of a large number of millions over many other clubs. The background business details are unimportant.
Why the hell aren't the details important? The disadvantage is (almost) entirely a matter of choice. If you and I can both afford to drive a Maserotti, but I choose to drive a 1968 Dodge Dart Swinger instead, then I don't get to complain about how nice your car is.
At least for me, the whole "Evil Empire" thing died in October 2004. You can't be an evil empire and choke like that. The evil of the Yankees was always dependent on their emerging victorious against the Sox.
That, of course, was against Red Sox pitching.
Already said it in the Sox Therapy thread.
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