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Wednesday, December 28, 2011

Remington: Happy Birthday Boy! Roy White turns 68 today

I know it was yesterday…but the Bill James/Roy White/Jim Rice argument is timeless.

These days, probably the most famous thing about Roy White is a single sentence Bill James wrote in 2001: “I may be the only person who rates Roy White ahead of Jim Rice, George Foster, Joe Carter, and several Hall of Famers.”

For the younger readers among us, White was a two-time All-Star who played 15 years for the Yankees and hit 160 homers with 758 RBIs. James wrote that in his New Historical Abstract, eight years before Rice’s election to the Hall of Fame (and one year before James was hired by Rice’s former employers, the Boston Red Sox), and it brought White the most publicity he’d had in years — perhaps ever.

...Roy White grew up in Compton, California, an understated man who won championships with the two biggest baseball teams in the world, in the World Series with the New York Yankees and in the Japan Series with the Yomiuri Giants. So why is he not remembered that well? It’s because the things he was good at were things that you wouldn’t necessarily notice. He walked a lot. He played good defense in left field in Yankee Stadium, which was so deep that it was known at the time as “Death Valley” — and, as a switch-hitter, White himself saw a lot of potential home runs turn into noisy outs in Death Valley. James highlighted White as an example of the extreme influence that home field can have in baseball: Jim Rice’s inflated offense was partly due to Fenway Park, a bandbox which turned every hitter into a star, while White’s relatively unimpressive offense was partly due to Yankee Stadium, which was death on right-handed sluggers.

...White’s name was often bandied about during the discussions of Jim Rice for the Hall of Fame. White himself didn’t receive a single Hall of Fame vote. Now that Rice is in, not many people write about the old Yankee left fielder that the Red Sox analyst thought was better. But it’s his birthday. He deserves it.

Repoz Posted: December 28, 2011 at 01:26 PM | 30 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, history, red sox, sabermetrics, yankees

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   1. RB in NYC (Now with New iPhone!) Posted: December 28, 2011 at 03:30 PM (#4024270)
My father's all-time favorite Yankee. Gave him a Roy White signed photo for Christmas (or possibly his birthday) a couple of years ago which remains one of my better gifts.
   2. Dale Sams Posted: December 28, 2011 at 03:38 PM (#4024274)
'Boy'? You racist #####!
   3. Bruce Markusen Posted: December 28, 2011 at 04:55 PM (#4024312)
The Yankees of the early 1970s (before Nettles arrived) had three quality everyday players in Munson, Murcer, and White. White was a four-tool player (bat, power, speed, and defense) who lacked only a good arm. Sometimes there was a tendency to overstate the poor nature of White's arm, which perhaps dragged down people's overall assessment of his talent. Just a very good and consistent player. I'd take him as my left fielder any day.
   4. Crispix Attacks Posted: December 28, 2011 at 05:12 PM (#4024324)
Remington is correct. I don't think I'd ever heard of Roy White before he and Dwight Evans were put up as the all-purpose comparisons in the "If Jim Rice gets into the Hall of Fame, any number of other people should" argument.
   5. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 28, 2011 at 05:20 PM (#4024328)
One of the baseball book authors once noted that almost all players named "White" are actually black, while players with the last name "Black" are usually white. Where that leaves Shawn Green, who knows?
   6. The District Attorney Posted: December 28, 2011 at 05:31 PM (#4024339)
This is better than Jim Rice's birthday.

Where that leaves Shawn Green, who knows?
Well, is he green? No. Theory holds.
   7. Don Malcolm Posted: December 28, 2011 at 05:42 PM (#4024347)
Always a fan of Roy's, though he was a much better hitter right-handed, and might well have actually hit better overall if he'd not decided to switch-hit.
   8. SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 28, 2011 at 05:53 PM (#4024359)
One of the baseball book authors once noted that almost all players named "White" are actually black, while players with the last name "Black" are usually white. Where that leaves Shawn Green, who knows?

Same place as David Green.

Joe Black, Game 7 1952 WS starter, was black.
   9. Misirlou's got a busy day, he's wearing a vest Posted: December 28, 2011 at 05:58 PM (#4024365)
One of the baseball book authors once noted that almost all players named "White" are actually black, while players with the last name "Black" are usually white. Where that leaves Shawn Green, who knows?


And then there's the white and black Bobby's Brown.
   10. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: December 28, 2011 at 06:00 PM (#4024368)
One of the baseball book authors once noted that almost all players named "White" are actually black, while players with the last name "Black" are usually white. Where that leaves Shawn Green, who knows?


Wasn't that James, in a comment on either Frank White or Bud Black?
   11. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: December 28, 2011 at 06:03 PM (#4024370)
Vida wasn't blue either.
   12. ray james Posted: December 28, 2011 at 06:10 PM (#4024376)
He played good defense in left field in Yankee Stadium, which was so deep that it was known at the time as “Death Valley” — and, as a switch-hitter, White himself saw a lot of potential home runs turn into noisy outs in Death Valley.


He forgot to add: "As a switchhiiter, he also saw a lot of potential routine flyouts land in the rightfield stands as cheap homeruns.".
   13. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 28, 2011 at 06:11 PM (#4024377)
Tim Salmon kind of was.
   14. Crispix Attacks Posted: December 28, 2011 at 06:11 PM (#4024378)
I am not black like Barry White
No I am white like Frank Black is
   15. Bob Evans Posted: December 28, 2011 at 07:19 PM (#4024435)
As a switchhiiter, he also saw a lot of potential routine flyouts land in the rightfield stands as cheap homeruns.

Jeez, what a buzzkill on ol' Roy's birthday.
   16. Dag Nabbit apealing [sic] his own check swing Posted: December 28, 2011 at 07:22 PM (#4024437)
One of the baseball book authors once noted that almost all players named "White" are actually black, while players with the last name "Black" are usually white. Where that leaves Shawn Green, who knows?

Wasn't that James, in a comment on either Frank White or Bud Black?

It was James, about how players are never the same color as their names. He looked at the Royals at that time, who had Frank White, who was black, and Bud Black, who was White. He then noted that Vida wasn't Blue and Darryl wasn't Motley.
   17. Gary Truth Serum Posted: December 28, 2011 at 07:32 PM (#4024451)
In addition, although I don't think it was in the same comment, he mentioned that Vic Power had no power and Horace Speed had no speed. Also, Bill Goodenough had only 31 career at-bats in the major leagues. A few years later he pointed out that Cecil Fielder was a born DH.
   18. Misirlou's got a busy day, he's wearing a vest Posted: December 28, 2011 at 07:55 PM (#4024468)
In addition, although I don't think it was in the same comment, he mentioned that Vic Power had no power and Horace Speed had no speed. Also, Bill Goodenough had only 31 career at-bats in the major leagues. A few years later he pointed out that Cecil Fielder was a born DH.


Homer Bush hit only 11 in a 7 year career. And Bob Walk had pretty good control.
   19. Walt Davis Posted: December 28, 2011 at 08:39 PM (#4024502)
And Josh Outman only gets outs 67.7% of the time.

While many Whites are black, I'm pretty sure all the Whiteys are white.

Also I count 19 Whites who played pre-integration so I'll go out on a limb and guess at least 17 of them were white, including this guy who I suppose gets to be on the Reggie Cleveland All-Stars.
   20. Don Malcolm Posted: December 28, 2011 at 08:43 PM (#4024507)
Correction--got Roy's splits backwards. But his HR totals home/road don't suggest that he took especial advantage of Yankee Stadium as a lefty batter. He actually hit better in Shea for the two years (74-75) that the Yanks played there than he did in either the old park (65-73) or the revamped park (76-79).
   21. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 28, 2011 at 08:46 PM (#4024512)
Grant Balfour, pleasingly, has struggled with control his entire career.
   22. cwinff Posted: December 28, 2011 at 08:49 PM (#4024516)
Roy White was a darn good player, but he is another of Bill James' "man-crushes" like Amos Otis that is elevated far beyond actual performance. He was a good guy, but not the selfless player that James makes him out to be: read Catfish Hunter's autobiography.
   23. Misirlou's got a busy day, he's wearing a vest Posted: December 28, 2011 at 08:50 PM (#4024518)
Speaking of Home Bush and Bob Walk, last car trip we took, instead of the license plate game, we guessed baseball player's with legal scrabble words for their first (commonly known as) and last names. The favorites were:

Prince Fielder
Don Money
Norm Cash
Frank White
Bud Black
Buddy Bell
Mark Prior
   24. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 28, 2011 at 08:59 PM (#4024531)
“I may be the only person who rates Roy White ahead of Jim Rice, George Foster, Joe Carter, and several Hall of Famers.”


and the came WAR...

White's career "air" was 89 (meaning his run context was 89% of MLB's historical average)- basically he played his entire career in pitchers parks in a[relative] pitcher's era.

He was not a HOF caliber player, but he was quite likely as good as Jim Rice, just that you'd never ever know that from raw traditional stats.

Even if you run his entire career through BBREF's converter (1978 Fenway) he doesn't get there (.299-187-952, with 6 100+ run seasons and 2 100+ rbi years), similar to Dewey Evans but with less career length, good (but not great) batting average, decent power, decent speed, willing to take a walk, small positives across the board, but nothing that stood out.

except veins... seriously, what I most remember was that he'd bat in short sleeves, and he'd tense up into his batting stance and you could literally see every individual vein, tendon and muscle strand in his arms- he was not "big" but he was ripped, 0% body fat or something
   25. What did Billy Ripken have against Elroy Face? Posted: December 28, 2011 at 10:25 PM (#4024581)
However, over in the NBA, Rolando Blackman was exactly as his jersey described.

EDIT: And still is.
   26. Brian Posted: December 28, 2011 at 10:43 PM (#4024593)
Sometimes there was a tendency to overstate the poor nature of White's arm, which perhaps dragged down people's overall assessment of his talent. Just a very good and consistent player.


White had a weak arm but he was a living clinic on getting to the ball and getting rid of it quickly, making an accurate throw and hitting the cutoff man. I know raw OF assist totals don't tell much (When everyone runs on you, you can get some assists along the way) but the 28 OF assists in 1967 stands out.
   27. Tom Nawrocki Posted: December 28, 2011 at 11:02 PM (#4024609)
However, over in the NBA, Rolando Blackman was exactly as his jersey described.


But the Rockies' Charlie Blackmon is neither black nor Jamaican.
   28. What did Billy Ripken have against Elroy Face? Posted: December 28, 2011 at 11:06 PM (#4024616)
No word on whether or not Mark Redman has any Native American heritage.
   29. Don Malcolm Posted: December 29, 2011 at 12:03 AM (#4024683)
Brian, I think you and I need to see the same eye doctor--just as I transposed White's LH/RH splits, you've done the same with those assists--they were actually 3B assists.

BTW, the SABR bio doesn't cover it, but in 1967 White played for the Dodgers' triple-A farm club prior to being recalled to the bigs by the Yankees. Anyone have more details on that? Back then it was not quite so uncommon for teams to "loan" players, and this is probably the explanation.
   30. The District Attorney Posted: December 29, 2011 at 12:58 AM (#4024722)
[James] mentioned that Vic Power had no power and Horace Speed had no speed. Also, Bill Goodenough had only 31 career at-bats in the major leagues.
And that Joe Blong did not belong for long. I thought that was a little weak.

Ted Power, as I recall, was a power pitcher at one point. Jim Winn didn't win all that much, though...

in 1967 White played for the Dodgers' triple-A farm club prior to being recalled to the bigs by the Yankees. Anyone have more details on that? Back then it was not quite so uncommon for teams to "loan" players, and this is probably the explanation.
Yup. Via Guapo in an old thread.

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