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Saturday, August 16, 2014

Replay can’t help Padres after confusing play at plate against Cardinals

But that’s what replay is for — to sort it all out. After a review lasting 4 minutes and 9 seconds, Davidson relayed the news: Amarista was still out. Black couldn’t believe it.

So this is where replay has led us.  Davidson barely makes a call.  He seemingly has no idea what happened and is pretty much on his way to the headset as soon as the play is over.  Everyone stands around while they watch replays that can’t definitively settle the issue.  So they stick with the original call which was made with all the conviction of someone ordering dinner off a menu written in Swahili.  We still get the manager argument, so more wasted time.

In the end, the only thing we no for sure is something we already knew: Bob Davidson sucks.

Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: August 16, 2014 at 04:09 AM | 31 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: like really sucks, replay sucks

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. Dale H. Posted: August 16, 2014 at 07:45 AM (#4772291)
If you watch where the tag attempt starts and establish a straight line to the plate, then note that when he finishes his initial slide he's roughly perpendicular to that line, then if you agree he's three feet away from the plate at that time then he technically ran out of the baseline. He looked to be at least three home plates from the base when he stands up to dive at it to me. I know baseball rules are esoteric and guarded by the umpires cabal, but strictly interpreted he was out of the baseline.
   2. villageidiom Posted: August 16, 2014 at 08:32 AM (#4772300)
He is out of the baseline.

In the linked article, go to the MLB video, not the first one. Pause it at the 3:05 mark. That's when Pierzynski has the ball. At that moment, the baseline - the line from Amarista to the base - goes through, or close to, the corner of grass where the straight base path from third to home meets up with the circular area around home plate. (That corner is obscured by Grandal's head in that shot, so use his head as a proxy.)

At the 3:08 mark, he is still trying to avoid a tag play, and his feet are a full body length away from that point. Unless Amarista and Pierzynski are both shorter than 3 feet, he is out of the baseline.

At the 3:11 mark, Davidson is pointing to where the tag attempt was made. He is either pointing to say he made the tag, or pointing to say he was out of the baseline, or thought he was looking at a box of donuts and saying, "That one there looks tasty." Granted, he should be ruling that the runner is out; and if he was out of the baseline he should have said so to Black when he went for the replay review, and Black shouldn't have been surprised at the ruling. The reactions and circumstantial evidence don't look good for Davidson, but the out call is correct.
   3. shoelesjoe Posted: August 16, 2014 at 08:59 AM (#4772303)
I'm not an expert on the new rules, but if Amarista continues full bore towards the plate as Pierzynski steps into the baseline to field the throw doesn't that make a dangerous collision inevitable? And if Amarista had plowed into the Cardinals' catcher while he was attempting to make the play would he have been called out regardless of whether he was tagged or not? If the situation is such that a collision = the runner is automatically out then the three foot baseline rule can't apply. And if the runner is obligated to stay within the three foot baseline and hit the catcher as hard as he can to break up the play then what's the point of the new collision rules? Or is Amarista just supposed to stop running and allow himself to be tagged out?

Agreed that Davidson appears completely clueless during the entire play, which is half the problem here. It looks like he wants to call a balk on *somebody* but can't quite figure out who.
   4. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 16, 2014 at 10:03 AM (#4772331)
Saw the play in real time. Thought the call was that the catcher was blocking the plate

The cards have benefitted from several reversals/non reversals at various times this year. Drives the divisional opponents crazy. Continued murmurs of conspiracy

uke captured the frustration when he sarcastically commented a while back that when people talked about larussa managing a different game that yes it was, one where the cards get 30 outs

sounds funnier in real time
   5. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: August 16, 2014 at 10:30 AM (#4772341)
Or is Amarista just supposed to stop running and allow himself to be tagged out?

If AJ doesn't have the ball, then Amarista can keep going and it's AJ who's breaking the rules. But if AJ has the ball, then the answer to your question is "yes". Just like at any other base. I mean, technically he has other options. He can slide and try to avoid a tag. Or he can stop and run back to third.
   6. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: August 16, 2014 at 11:32 AM (#4772360)
The new unclear home plate rule is going to be an entertaining disaster when it is invoked on a close play in the playoffs. Or is not invoked when it has usually been invoked during the season.

I am giving all commentators a pass on saying arguably dumb or misinformed things in response to these plays given that the rule and its application are a mess.
   7. Dale Sams Posted: August 16, 2014 at 11:47 AM (#4772370)
I think this year that runners are unsure of the rules and erring too much on the side of caution. If the catcher is blocking the plate and he has the ball...the runner doesn't have to go around him. He's just not allowed to try and knock the catchers fillings out. If you see an opening...slide. If you break the catchers ankle...well...
   8. Ulysses S. Fairsmith Posted: August 16, 2014 at 12:28 PM (#4772404)
Just like at any other base.


They could have made things so much easier with this line of thinking. If you do something near home plate that would get you called for interference or obstruction if you were near second or third, then you get called for interference or obstruction.
   9. The Duke Posted: August 16, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4772409)
Number 4 hasn't been seeing many Cards games. They must have the worst record at challenges. The only reason they didn't lose this one was that the replay officials couldn't find one to overturn the original call, so you had to assume Davidson was right. He was out twice for going out of the basepath and he got tagged. What more do you want.

The fact that Bob Davidson looks clueless here doesn't change that point.
   10. cardsfanboy Posted: August 16, 2014 at 02:38 PM (#4772442)

The cards have benefitted from several reversals/non reversals at various times this year. Drives the divisional opponents crazy. Continued murmurs of conspiracy


Yep they have benefitted greatly, the team that has had the fewest challenge success in baseball, is benefiting from replay over their rivals?
Tm    Chall Succ Succ%   Managers
                                 
NYY      22   17   77
%    Girardi
MIA      22   16   72
%    Redmond
KCR      29   19   65
%       Yost
ATL      23   15   65
%   Gonzalez
SFG      31   20   64
%      Bochy
TEX      27   17   62
Washington
HOU      24   15   62
%     Porter
MIL      18   11   61
%   Roenicke
OAK      20   12   60
%     Melvin
DET      29   17   58
%     Ausmus
PIT      31   18   58
%     Hurdle
WSN      23   13   56
%   Williams
LAD      29   16   55
%  Mattingly
BOS      22   12   54
%    Farrell
LAA      22   12   54
%   Scioscia
BAL      24   13   54
%  Showalter
MIN      28   15   53
Gardenhire
SDP      23   12   52
%      Black
ARI      28   14   50
%     Gibson
CHW      24   12   50
%    Ventura
CLE      25   12   48
%   Francona
SEA      23   11   47
%  McClendon
NYM      26   12   46
%    Collins
COL      31   13   41
%      Weiss
CHC      43   18   41
%   Renteria
PHI      24   10   41
%   Sandberg
TBR      38   15   39
%     Maddon
CIN      19    6   31
%      Price
TOR      35   11   31
%    Gibbons
STL      21    6   28
%    Matheny 


As pointed out here, the runner was out of the baseline, whether the umpires called that or not, the ultimate result was the correct call.
   11. McCoy Posted: August 16, 2014 at 02:53 PM (#4772446)
I think the results reinforce the truth that the Cards are a bunch of whiny little bvtches. Look at them holding up the game to challenge obviously correct decisions.
   12. cardsfanboy Posted: August 16, 2014 at 03:17 PM (#4772451)
I think the results reinforce the truth that the Cards are a bunch of whiny little bvtches. Look at them holding up the game to challenge obviously correct decisions.


Except of course in this case it was the Padres making the challenge(or did I just miss the sarcasm from that post)
   13. McCoy Posted: August 16, 2014 at 03:40 PM (#4772459)
Challenging 21 times and only beingright 6 times? Whiny little bvtches.
   14. cardsfanboy Posted: August 16, 2014 at 04:06 PM (#4772468)
Challenging 21 times and only beingright 6 times? Whiny little bvtches.


I see...The Cardinals have been "wrong" on challenges 15 times...in comparison the Cubs have been wrong on challenges 25 times....I'm thinking the Cubs with the most challenges in baseball(by a good margin--5 over the second place Rays) and most times being wrong on those challenges, would pretty much take the lead for whiniest team in baseball. :)
   15. McCoy Posted: August 16, 2014 at 04:13 PM (#4772472)
They were right 3 times more often despite only having twice as many challenges. Clearly the umpires are out to get the Cubs.
   16. salvomania Posted: August 16, 2014 at 04:14 PM (#4772474)
Challenging 21 times and only beingright 6 times? Whiny little bvtches.

On a percentage, though, the Cardinals are the whiniest, if you define whiny as an unwarranted (i.e., you're not in the right) public expression of your perception of having been wronged (i.e., challenging).
   17. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: August 16, 2014 at 04:35 PM (#4772478)
CFB- does your table identify how many challenges STL has initiated and won, or how many it's been involved in (total)?

Harvey's whiney post was about the Cardinals winning challenges that other teams initiated, so that data may not completely refute his aspersions. It does show that MIL and PIT have won an awful lot more challenges that they initiated than STL has, though.

Has anyone come up with an approximate run value of an overturned call? It would have to be close to a full run, right?
   18. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: August 16, 2014 at 04:47 PM (#4772480)
[17] The value depends on what base the safe/out call is at. The calculations can be made simply by looking at run expectancy charts and comparing the situation of safe vs. out.
   19. cardsfanboy Posted: August 16, 2014 at 04:49 PM (#4772481)
CFB- does your table identify how many challenges STL has initiated and won, or how many it's been involved in (total)?


I'm assuming it's challenge initiated.. It is from bb-reference.


Harvey's whiney post was about the Cardinals winning challenges that other teams initiated, so that data may not completely refute his aspersions.

True but it's at least one point of evidence that his post was pulled out of his ass. There just aren't that many challenges period, that there is anything that resembles a trend. There are on average 2 challenges per team, per week. There isn't enough possibilities for a trend to exist, unless you are looking to see that trend happen.
   20. PreservedFish Posted: August 16, 2014 at 04:52 PM (#4772483)
Both on the MLB app and on the website whenever there's a challenge the game score gets like grayed out and is placed in a different area. It's really weird. Why are they trying to highlight these challenges? Do they think it makes the whole thing seem cooler? But it's drawing attention to the length of the challenges in a strange and totally unnecessary way.
   21. cardsfanboy Posted: August 16, 2014 at 05:24 PM (#4772493)
CFB- does your table identify how many challenges STL has initiated and won, or how many it's been involved in (total)?


The website Baseball Savant has a nifty tool for baseball challenges, the Cardinals have been "challenged" 24 times and have been overturned(against the Cardinals other words) 45.83%, right along with the league average(47.07%).
   22. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 16, 2014 at 06:14 PM (#4772514)
a. I was referring to all challenges however initiated. Isn't the list above just from those by initiated team?

b. This game was an automatic review being a play at the plate. Didn't catch that it was tied to padres

C. I seem to be catching all the games involving the cards and a challenge Which is strange but clearly the case

d. Should have checked numbers to reconcile my anecdotal experience
   23. Cargo Cultist Posted: August 16, 2014 at 06:14 PM (#4772516)
He was out. What controversy? :)
   24. cardsfanboy Posted: August 16, 2014 at 06:37 PM (#4772521)
a. I was referring to all challenges however initiated. Isn't the list above just from those by initiated team?


The list in post 10 is list of challenges initiated by the team. The link(and information) in post 21 is the number of times the Cardinals have been "challenged".
   25. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 16, 2014 at 06:44 PM (#4772523)
cfb

Ok

Did not know this was tracked. But of course it would be

   26. cardsfanboy Posted: August 16, 2014 at 07:13 PM (#4772531)
Did not know this was tracked. But of course it would be


That is one of the reasons I love baseball. I was happy to find bb-reference tracked some of it, but that baseball savant link has a lot of great information.
   27. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: August 16, 2014 at 07:55 PM (#4772554)
CFB- thanks for the additional research.
   28. boteman Posted: August 16, 2014 at 08:23 PM (#4772568)
Man, that Baseball Savant site is like Fangraphs, only with really nice graphs...for fans! Nice.
   29. Walt Davis Posted: August 16, 2014 at 08:32 PM (#4772573)
I see...The Cardinals have been "wrong" on challenges 15 times...in comparison the Cubs have been wrong on challenges 25 times....I'm thinking the Cubs with the most challenges in baseball(by a good margin--5 over the second place Rays) and most times being wrong on those challenges, would pretty much take the lead for whiniest team in baseball. :)

This is an unfair comparison. The Cards know how to play baseball and are actually trying to win games but are whiny little #######. The Cubs are incompetent and challenge calls only to try to maintain the facade that they want to win the game. I'm sure Renteria is under orders to only challenge every other incorrect calls and lots of correct ones. If we fall a draft slot due to a successful challenge, heads are gonna roll!

I am hoping the above is satire.
   30. cardsfanboy Posted: August 16, 2014 at 08:37 PM (#4772574)
I am hoping the above is satire.


Yes, but it doesn't hurt to add that comment.
   31. Cargo Cultist Posted: August 16, 2014 at 10:04 PM (#4772623)
The Cards know how to play baseball and are actually trying to win games but are whiny little #######.


You really think this is satire?

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