The worst rumor I heard was Domonick Brown, Singleton and Jared Cosart for Pence. That would be just ludicrous. I wouldn't trade Brown straight up for Pence, although there is an argument for the here and now.

Now I'm hearing that the Phillies DID put Domonic Brown into an offer and the Astros still didn't take it. I'm confused, but happy.

heyman thinks it was drayton saying NO.

it's possible that it didn't have to do with prospects but with money - i wouldn't be real too surprised if drayton wanted crappier prospects and the salary gone

or ed wade just might could have made a seriously terrible trade with philly seeing as how he wants to send everyone who is any good to philly no matter what he gets back

What the hell are the Phillies doing? I'm happy to see them trade away 3 of their top 5 prospects, but can't they just get Ryan Ludwick for a few pennies instead?

does this mess with a players head or are these guys professional enough to go out there and play? if i was pence i'd prob. wanna know wtf is going on ...
but then again i'm kind of a diva.

ed wade just might could have made a seriously terrible trade with philly seeing as how he wants to send everyone who is any good to philly no matter what he gets back

bbc, is there even enough talent on Houston to make your scenario work if it's Brown and 2 top 50 prospects? :)

but can't they just get Ryan Ludwick for a few pennies instead?

Or Josh Willingham, or Melky Cabrera, or Casey Blake, or...

Colonel, after hearing the price for Pence, I'm even starting to warm for Melky, that's how bad it is.

Astros could NOT have turned down Brown/Singleton/Cosart, could they?
Phils probably *replaced* Singleton w/ Brown - which the Astros should also do.

does this mess with a players head or are these guys professional enough to go out there and play?

I think it has to mess with them somewhat. Halladay went through a rough patch during some of the rumors a couple of years ago if memory serves. These guys are human and I'm sure it's tough to offset "why don't they want me anymore" with "wow, lots of teams want me!"

Like all of that stuff I imagine the impact is probably pretty minor and that while they're on the field they are pretty focused. I wouldn't be stunned if a guy like Pence was getting a bit less sleep these days and was being a bit surly with all the uncertainty.

but can't they just get Ryan Ludwick for a few pennies instead?

Hunter Pence lifetime OPS+ of 117; this year's at 132, and is 28 (he can stay at this level).

Ryan Ludwick lifetime OPS+ of 111; this year's at 92, and is 33 (going to get worse).

They are not comparable or interchangeable, at all. One is an upgrade to what they have; the other is about at replacement level.

Trade deadline's Sunday, right? That means 2 more days of watching stupid rumors fly around Twitter & hoping the Phillies don't trade for Hunter Pence, ugh.

I think the Braves should offer Julio Teheran to the Royals in exchange for sending Melky Cabrera to the Phillies.

Hunter Pence lifetime OPS+ of 117; this year's at 132, and is 28 (he can stay at this level).

As long as he retains a 370 babip. Phillies would buy at Pence's highest point. Trading Brown for him is a complete disaster unless there is some personality default in Brown that hasn't been made public.

2B Dave Cash
3B Don Money
IF Toots Coyne
OF Hunter Pence

SP Curt Schilling
SP Brad Penny

Who else?

RP: Felipe Lira

Colonel, after hearing the price for Pence, I'm even starting to warm for Melky, that's how bad it is.

Melky would be a good fit, as would Willingham. It's a buyer's market if you don't insist on the most expensive car in the lot.

I wonder why no one is making inquiries about Michael Morse instead. He's only a year older than Pence, under control for as long and an even better hitter. If I'm the Nats and I could get a package like Brown, Cosart and more for him, he'd be gone.

Who else?

Five hundred guys named Mark?

Norm Cash at 1B ... unless you don't want to repeat in which case Norm was a much better player than Dave anyway.

b-r tells me there was a Bill Pounds (qualifies on two counts) who pitched 11 very bad innings in 1903. And some Dollars in the minors.

I understand Francoeur translates as "waste of francs".

EDIT: Which is the answer to the other question -- trade for Francoeur, take his hot month, release.

If I'm the Nats and I could get a package like Brown, Cosart and more for him, he'd be gone.

Morse is 29 years old with a fairly modest minor league track record and this is his first full season. It's not out of the question that he's Jayson Werth and has several big years coming but I think teams trading for him probably are unwilling to take the risk of dealing a good prospect while the Nats don't want to give up a potentially valuable slugger for a lottery ticket. He's the kind of guy that would seem to be valued very differently by the trader and the tradee.

Hunter Pence lifetime OPS+ of 117; this year's at 132, and is 28 (he can stay at this level).

Ryan Ludwick lifetime OPS+ of 111; this year's at 92, and is 33 (going to get worse).

They are not comparable or interchangeable, at all. One is an upgrade to what they have; the other is about at replacement level.

Not that you are wrong, but I wouldn't really consider anything by Ludwick prior to 2007 in listing his career numbers.

The rumours that the teams are looking for a third team to make the deal work has me hoping Athopolous works his magoc again and the Jays end up with Brown and give up Snider and... I don't know... how about Tallet?

Hey, a guy can dream. :)

C: John Buck
RP: Doug Nickle
RP: Rheal Cormier

What all you guys are overlooking is "OMG! Will Philadelphia fans ever looooove Hunter Pence! What a gamer!" Or so I hear on the radio.

Of course, the numerous Bucks: John Buck, Travis Buck, Buck Ewing, Buck Leonard, and Zack "Buck" Wheat.

And there's Smead "Guinea" Jolley.

What all you guys are overlooking is "OMG! Will Philadelphia fans ever looooove Hunter Pence! What a gamer!" Or so I hear on the radio.

I know I must sound like Pence's favorite fan boy, and I am not, but in response to this, in 3 full seasons he has averaged 157 games a year; the dude does show up for work, and given the injury problems with this Phillies team, having a guy you can count on to be in the line-up really is a plus.

C: John Buck
RP: Doug Nickle
RP: Rheal Cormier

don't forget Wes Stock and Barry Bonds (unless you require hard currency)

2B - John Kroner

Ernie Banks.

Morse is also 6'5" and 230 pounds. Put him in left, and Mayberry (6' 6", 230 pounds) in CF (where he has played this year), and you are a big RF away from starting an offensive line in your outfield.

Esteban Yen
Oscar Rubles


...sorry

Are the Houston Astros trying to mutate into this generation's Arnold Johnson-era Kansas City A's, with the Phillies in the role of the Yankees?

Morse is also 6'5" and 230 pounds. Put him in left, and Mayberry (6' 6", 230 pounds) in CF (where he has played this year), and you are a big RF away from starting an offensive line in your outfield.

Maybe if this were 1970. Those guys are closer to WR sizes these days.

Dick Rand

2B Dave Cash
3B Don Money
IF Toots Coyne
OF Hunter Pence

SP Curt Schilling
SP Brad Penny

Who else?

Sterling Hitchcock
Lenny DINARdo

Won Marichal?

Curt Schilling
Justin Leone
Bartolo Colon (Costa Rican currency)

Schilling already mentioned, sorry. Since I'm posting again anyway, I should mention that there's a spot called XE.com - The Universal Currency Converter where you can see a list of the world's currencies. And obviously you can see how much dollars are worth in Colons or any other currency there.

Announcer: Joe Buck

Brian Looney?

For Final Fantasy fans:

Gil McDougald

Ryan Rupee
Mark Kroon
Brazilian Real Cormier

Mark Kroon

Er?

Silver King

Anyone named Frank

Francisco "Nicaraguan" Cordova (aka Cordoba)

"Laotian" Kip Wells

Astros could NOT have turned down Brown/Singleton/Cosart, could they?

if they're cheap and stupid enough to have put themselves in a position where they have virtually no talent at either the major or the minor league level, what makes you think they're smart enough to realize the value of an offer that is piled as high as that one?


also, i would not touch that deal with a 75 foot pole. with the fickleness of pitching prospects, i'd have no problem moving cosart, but singleton looks like a hell of a prospect (a hell of a hell of a prospect when you consider the plate discipline he's showing while being the youngest player in a pitchers league), and brown was a top 5 prospect in baseball coming into the year who's held his head above water despite losing most of spring training to a broken wrist.


if this rumored deal would be the price we'd have to pay, i'd step away from hunter pence and focus on adding carlos quentin or aramis ramirez or mark reynolds or josh willingham or alex gordon. if we're offering brown AND singleton AND cosart, i'd much rather split those and offer singleton and cosart to chicago for aramis ramirez and sean marshall, with the condition that they also take brad lidge to cover up the salary, and brown and another piece (maybe julio rodriguez) to KC for alex gordon. the lineup would be absolutely stacked at that point (rollins-victorino-utley-howard-ramirez-gordon-ibanez-ruiz), the bench would be solid (mayberry, francisco, polanco, martinez, and schneider, with ross gload likely getting added to the playoff roster) and the pitching staff would still be tremendous.


and there'd still be a lot of useful parts in the minors. there'd be may, colvin, and biddle as SP prospects, there'd be valle at C, a whole host of toolsheds in the OF, plus various other pieces at various other positions and levels.

According to both Heyman and Robothal on Twitter, Pence to Phillies for Cosart, Singleton, and 2 PTBNL is a done deal.

According to both Heyman and Robothal on Twitter, Pence to Phillies for Cosart, Singleton, and 2 PTBNL is a done deal.

Amaro pulling the dumbest deal of his tenure.

I like Hunter Pence just fine, but . . . wow. Really? I know he's not a rental, so you're willing to give up more, but the Phillies are not that much in need of his bat for this season.

SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
#astros sold high on pence. yet still didnt get very much.

Hahahahah WHAT?

I like Hunter Pence just fine, but . . . wow. Really? I know he's not a rental, so you're willing to give up more, but the Phillies are not that much in need of his bat for this season.

so long as the PTBNL aren't may, biddle, colvin, rodriguez, aumont, rosenberg, defratus, valle, or galvis, i'll be happy. cosart is a good prospect, but i think there's a pretty big chasm between what his prospect ranking says he'll be and what he's actually likely to be in the majors. he's had arm problems in the past, and he's apparently got questionable mechanics that indicates the issues could persist as he continues to log innings.

also, they haven't lost anything off the roster with this move. they've kept worley and they've kept brown, so pence adds significant value at the cost of (hopefully) gload's roster spot, and (hopefully) ibanez's at bats. nothing else is lost.



if the 2 throw ins are anyone other than the 9 i listed above, i'll chalk this up as a win. adding pence really does make the team more formidable come october, and he'll have value for years to come.

Jayson Stark
jaysonst Jayson Stark
#Astros also sending cash to #Phillies as part of Pence deal. Otherwise, Phillies likely would have been over luxury-tax threshold #trades

I love the trade deadline. Major League All-Stars get traded for kids in A-ball, and almost without fail, people anoint the recipient of the A-ball kids as the trade's winner. Hope, indeed, springs eternal.

Anyway, I generally dislike sentimentality when it comes to player personnel moves, but 2012 and '13 in Houston just got a whole lot worse for Astros fans. Pence certainly isn't the centerpiece of a championship-caliber team, but he was the consensus fan favorite on a likely 100-loss team. Unless the new owner is a closet Steinbrenner, the 2012 and '13 Astros look to be ugly, ugly teams.

My gut tells me Hunter Pence is the next Nate McLouth.

magelb Matt Gelb
Hearing that RHP Josh Zeid is one of the unnamed players. He's 24 and has a 5.65 ERA at double-A Reading. Unconfirmed.

HighCheese David Murphy
Kendrick would make a lot of sense as the PTBNL, especially if Stros think they can trade Wandy or Myers

I love the trade deadline. Major League All-Stars get traded for kids in A-ball, and almost without fail, people anoint the recipient of the A-ball kids as the trade's winner. Hope, indeed, springs eternal.

I hear you. But the way I see it, Hunter Pence is a corner outfielder who has never had a season with as many as 500 PAs with an OPS+ of 120 or higher. He's on pace to do that this season for the first time, but how much is a player like that worth? Two of your team's better prospects? Perhaps. I love a player (like Pence) who is consistently productive, but I'd sure like him better if his consistency was at a notch higher level.

Do I think the Phillies are the loser in this trade? No. But that doesn't mean I'd have made the trade. There's a gray area where you can say you understand why the trade was made, wouldn't really criticize it or the judgment call the GM made, but you would weigh the short-term gain v. the weakening of the team's farm system differently. That's where I am on this one.

I love the trade deadline. Major League All-Stars get traded for kids in A-ball, and almost without fail, people anoint the recipient of the A-ball kids as the trade's winner. Hope, indeed, springs eternal.

Upon further review...you're more right than I thought. Both Cosart and Singleton are in A+, and neither are doing superbly. They're both young, but that doesn't mean they'll both make it.

I hear you. But the way I see it, Hunter Pence is a corner outfielder who has never ...

I agree with you in the sense that Pence is likely at peak value and that he's not either the centerpiece of a great team or likely to be a good value by the time the Astros are decent again. As I said above, I generally don't believe sentimentality should factor into player personnel moves. The only reason I think this could backfire for the Astros is because it's dangerous for an ML team to get to the point where even diehard fans start to lose interest, and I was getting the sense that point was already drawing near in Houston before today's trade.

It's bad enough the Astros are a likely 100-loss, last-place team, but without Pence, they now have no one resembling a fan favorite. The Astros have no young studs ready to make a splash in 2012, and they'll be negotiating TV fees for the new RSN next year while fielding an essentially faceless, 100-loss team. It's one thing to be bad; it's another to be irrelevant. The Astros seem to be teetering on the edge of the latter (which is painful for me to say, as someone who grew up working for an Astros affiliate and aspired to an office at the Astrodome).

but you would weigh the short-term gain

pence is under team control for this year, plus the next 2. he's not a 2 month rental, he's gonna be a core piece for the foreseeable future.

pence is under team control for this year, plus the next 2. he's not a 2 month rental, he's gonna be a core piece for the foreseeable future.

I understand that (see # 47). And I agree that justifies paying a higher price than a rental would. But the Phillies primary focus here, I have to believe, is gearing up for trying to win a World Series this year, and Pence gives them the bat they think will help them do that. His contract status, and how long he'll be around, are certainly a factor, and affect the price. And to me, even taking all of that into account, he's not good enough, or enough of a difference-maker, to give up two prospects who are each about as good as the one the Giants gave up for Beltran.

Here's another question: given how much the Phillies will be paying him in 2012 and 2013, and presuming that he slots in for Ibanez, what is this likely to mean for their budget? I've heard a lot of talk that they could pursue Reyes because they could use the savings from letting Ibanez go to have room in the budget. But if they are now committing some of the Ibanez money to Pence, does that change the equation?

And to me, even taking all of that into account, he's not good enough, or enough of a difference-maker, to give up two prospects who are each about as good as the one the Giants gave up for Beltran.

Sam has always loved him them prospects. I remember all those Daniel Murphy posts...

I am not a huge Pence fan, but this makes sense for the Phillies. For one thing, Pence actually helps them get YOUNGER during the rest of the FlagsFlyForever window.

Sean Forman said on the other thread that he would not be surprised if they trade Domonic Brown for Heath Bell. I would certainly like that for the Padres.

But if they are now committing some of the Ibanez money to Pence, does that change the equation?

Lidge comes off the books, minus his buyout value. If they pursue Reyes, obviously Rollins comes off the books. I'm guessing Madson walks. I don't think they can realistically pursue Reyes.

Here's another question: given how much the Phillies will be paying him in 2012 and 2013, and presuming that he slots in for Ibanez, what is this likely to mean for their budget? I've heard a lot of talk that they could pursue Reyes because they could use the savings from letting Ibanez go to have room in the budget. But if they are now committing some of the Ibanez money to Pence, does that change the equation?

they're not signing reyes. if you've heard talk of that, it's probably due to my trolling of mets fans anytime the two teams play or a madoff story hits the front page. it's not happening.


roy oswalt, brad lidge, jimmy rollins, ryan madson and raul ibanez are the important free agents this offseason. i think (and hope) that something will be done to keep lidge, rollins, and madson here next year. i'm also holding my fingers that something can be done to keep roy oswalt, but with the emergence of vance worley, i'm not too sure that will be a priority. really, i wouldn't mind keeping ibanez as a bat off the bench, either. i just wouldn't pay him all that much to be that.



aside from the decisions to be made on the 5 above players, the pressing issues of the offseason will be in locking up cole hamels and hunter pence for a significant length of time. in all likelihood, the team will not be a player in free agency. the starting lineup, aside from rollins, is set (ruiz-howard-utley-polanco-ss-brown-victorino-pence), the rotation is set (halladay-lee-hamels-worley-oswalt/blanton/kendrick), the bullpen and the bench have a few holes, but that's true for every team this far out from the start of the year, and there are plenty of in house options in both areas.

Sean Forman said on the other thread that he would not be surprised if they trade Domonic Brown for Heath Bell. I would certainly like that for the Padres.

no. dear god, please no.

Sam has always loved him them prospects. I remember all those Daniel Murphy posts...

OK, wise guy. Just because you asked:

.320/.363/.457/.820 128 OPS+

Daniel Murphy, 2011. I may be right too soon, but I'm rarely wrong. ;)

As for the Phillies pursuing Reyes, I honestly don't see why they wouldn't (other than not being able to fit his likely price in their budget). He's four years younger, and at this point pretty clearly a lot better than Rollins. What would the Phillies have to sacrifice elsewhere to pay the extra money it'll cost to get Reyes and let Rollins walk? Figure that would be what, $5M or so per year, maybe a bit more? I'm hard-pressed to see why the Phillies wouldn't view that as a price worth paying, but if so, I'll be very glad.

As for the Phillies pursuing Reyes, I honestly don't see why they wouldn't (other than not being able to fit his likely price in their budget). He's four years younger, and at this point pretty clearly a lot better than Rollins. What would the Phillies have to sacrifice elsewhere to pay the extra money it'll cost to get Reyes and let Rollins walk? Figure that would be what, $5M or so per year, maybe a bit more? I'm hard-pressed to see why the Phillies wouldn't view that as a price worth paying, but if so, I'll be very glad.

reyes isn't getting less than 15 mil a year, and rollins isn't getting more than 8. they're in vastly different leagues.

TerpNats Posted: July 29, 2011 at 03:35 PM (#3888483)

Are the Houston Astros trying to mutate into this generation's Arnold Johnson-era Kansas City A's, with the Phillies in the role of the Yankees?

- trying? they already have


Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 29, 2011 at 09:18 PM (#3888732)

According to both Heyman and Robothal on Twitter, Pence to Phillies for Cosart, Singleton, and 2 PTBNL is a done deal.


Amaro pulling the dumbest deal of his tenure.

- dumbest?
he got rid of some A-ball guys for a good, solid major leaguer who they NEED this year to win the pennant - and he is not THAT expensive. you neverknow what is gonna happen with those low minor leaguers. and ed wade's judgement on who is any good as a prospect is the total SUKC