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Tuesday, August 05, 2014

Report: More players to be named in connection with Biogenesis

Two law enforcement sources tell me investigation revealed previously unnamed MLB players. Names will be revealed. Expect more suspensions.

This is the thing that the “No cheaters in the HOF!!!” crowd won’t admit - we don’t know who’s clean and who isn’t.  In addition to those already suspended because of Biogenesis, these additional players presumably were never caught by drug testing.

TDF, situational idiot Posted: August 05, 2014 at 05:14 PM | 37 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: steroids

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   1. Walt Davis Posted: August 06, 2014 at 03:42 AM (#4765303)
The ESPN story seems a bit more careful.

The government is not investigating players but names did come up in the investigation.

(Some of) these names will come up in discovery.

MLB had already investigated more players than it suspended: At least 25 players, either by name or nickname, appeared in clinic documents reviewed by "Outside the Lines" over the past two years, although MLB lacked sufficient evidence to bring suspensions against all of them. Sources have indicated that the number of MLB players who dealt with Bosch over the years could be significantly higher.

Having already spun its wheels on several players where they didn't find sufficient evidence and with its investigations office in a bit of a shambles and with a bad reputation, I'm guessing they'll need to see fairly strong evidence before they'll act on anybody new.

Of course the somewhat odd ARod ruling might mean that if a new date or a new drug comes out on one of the suspended players that they could look to tack on another 50-gamer.
   2. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: August 06, 2014 at 04:53 AM (#4765306)
This is the thing that the “No cheaters in the HOF!!!” crowd won’t admit - we don’t know who’s clean and who isn’t.

Well, no, folks will admit this just fine. Like every other aspect of life, perfect information is rarely available, so you use the best information you have a go from there.

Whatever the infraction (rolling through a stop sign, insider trading, first degree murder), you certainly don't let the fact that you didn't catch every single guilty person keep you from convicting those you did catch.
   3. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: August 06, 2014 at 05:03 AM (#4765309)
This is the thing that the “No cheaters in the HOF!!!” crowd won’t admit - we don’t know who’s clean and who isn’t.

What a weird statement.
   4. Bruce Markusen Posted: August 06, 2014 at 07:08 AM (#4765315)
"We don't know who's clean and who isn't." This is just defeatism at its worst. Justice isn't perfect, so let's not pursue justice at all?

No, let's do our best to find out who cheated and make sure that they are given the appropriate punishment. The system is far from perfect--but it's better than just throwing up our and hands and doing nothing.
   5. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 06, 2014 at 07:41 AM (#4765325)
No, let's do our best to find out who cheated and make sure that they are given the appropriate punishment. The system is far from perfect--but it's better than just throwing up our and hands and doing nothing.


This is a fine argument for enforcing the current drug testing regime and a bad one for keeping players out of the Hall of Fame based on an assortment of evidence like things.
   6. TDF, situational idiot Posted: August 06, 2014 at 08:41 AM (#4765342)
This is the thing that the “No cheaters in the HOF!!!” crowd won’t admit - we don’t know who’s clean and who isn’t.

Well, no, folks will admit this just fine.
Really? Is there any suspicion at all that Derek Jeter may have used PEDs? Greg Maddux? No, we know those guys are clean because...well, we just do. Just like we knew ARod was clean before we found out he wasn't. Meanwhile, it will never matter what Roger Clemens does, people will completely ignore the fact that there's no credible evidence he used - he's obviously a juicer.
   7. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 06, 2014 at 08:57 AM (#4765346)
Let's wildly speculate who!

Todd Frazier
Khris Davis
Alcides Escobar
Chase Whitley
Howie Kendrick
Kolten Wong
Will Venable
Adam Lind
Oliver Perez
Scott Atchison

These are names of baseball players - some of which may or may not be implicated in such a scandal!
   8. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: August 06, 2014 at 09:00 AM (#4765348)
Let's wildly speculate who!


Yankees Minor League Prospect Carlos Guzman is a lock.
   9. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 06, 2014 at 09:20 AM (#4765353)
Wild speculation based on zero evidence in the AL East;

Brett Gardner - Big Power increase
Brock Holt - Where'd this come from?
Jose Bautista - Teh homers!
Manny Machado - Roid rage
Curt Casali - Why not?
   10. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: August 06, 2014 at 09:39 AM (#4765367)
Really? Is there any suspicion at all that Derek Jeter may have used PEDs? Greg Maddux? No, we know those guys are clean because...well, we just do. Just like we knew ARod was clean before we found out he wasn't.

I also don't know that TDF, situational idiot isn't a child molester. Why isn't there suspicion that he is? Where is the outrage!!!

It's a dumb standard. In general people should get the benefit of the doubt, regardless of what the accusation is. That's not the same thing as not admitting that you don't actually know. I have seen plenty of people here say that no player being busted would surprise them, and many times including naming Jeter by name (and as the President of the Jeter haterboy club, nothing would make me happier).
   11. Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant Posted: August 06, 2014 at 09:47 AM (#4765368)
Robinson Chirinos - 11 home runs? Really?
Stephen Vogt - I believe in Stephen Vogt (as a PED abuser).
Kole Calhoun - Sounds like he's worked with cattle. Bet he pisses hot for horse steroids.
Chris Young - He didn't come by that fastball naturally.
Jonathan Singleton - MARIJUANA IS A GATEWAY DRUG
   12. formerly dp Posted: August 06, 2014 at 09:59 AM (#4765379)
Chipper Jones, without a doubt
   13. villageidiom Posted: August 06, 2014 at 10:04 AM (#4765382)
This is the thing that the “No cheaters in the HOF!!!” crowd won’t admit - we don’t know who’s clean and who isn’t.
No. There are a number of people we know fell into the "isn't" category.

But yes, people who hold out Jeff Bagwell while voting in Greg Maddux - when one fits the stereotypical profile (slugger!) and the other doesn't (pitcher!), and with no other evidence damning nor vindicating either one* - are fooling only themselves. They don't know one way or the other, but they want to be men of action, so they act on limited and faulty information.

* I suppose it's possible BBWAA members observed stuff with Bagwell over the years that constitutes evidence of use, and are using a seeming double-standard of "didn't confirm it so can't report it, but witnessed it so can use it against him". Basically, the backne thing, but instead of backne, syringes and stuff, and instead of blogger Chass, people with sane editors. If something like that is going on, then I don't know what to say. The standards for HoF election and the standards for what is suitable to print are not necessarily the same.
   14. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 06, 2014 at 10:04 AM (#4765384)
Edwin Encarnacion, Jose Bautista, Juan Francisco - it ain't the hitting coach, it's the ROIDZ!
Derek Jeter - to try to get back on the field for last season (and this season) by aiding his injury recovery
Josh Donaldson - you don't go from AAA reject to MVP candidate without something suspicious...
Cory Kluber - that's a nice sudden career year you're having, Cory...
Clayton Kershaw - so obvious in hindsight...

This is fun!
   15. TDF, situational idiot Posted: August 06, 2014 at 10:22 AM (#4765393)
I also don't know that TDF, situational idiot isn't a child molester. Why isn't there suspicion that he is? Where is the outrage!!!
And of course, that's not the point at all. Nor is it analogous.

1. The point: As #13 points out, there is a different standard for guilt, depending on bullcrap criteria like "slugger during the '90s" or "finesse pitcher" or "guy we like". Jeff Bagwell and Mike Piazza, despite no evidence at all, are facing PED accusations; Roger Clemens has done everything a reasonable person would expect someone who's been falsely accused and it seems to actually be hurting his reputation. Andy Pettitte, who twice had to admit to HGH use after he was caught (the second time, using someone else's prescription, which is a felony), is seen as a good guy.

1a. Point #2: Testing is obviously not that hard to beat. To use "X never tested positive" to say he was clean doesn't mean squat.

2. Analogy: Child molester? Really? We're talking about people "cheating" (though it's tough to call it cheating when so many were doing it and those in charge didn't seem to care much until very recently) at a game vs. child molesting.

   16. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 06, 2014 at 10:26 AM (#4765398)
This is the thing that the “No cheaters in the HOF!!!” crowd won’t admit - we don’t know who’s clean and who isn’t.


Also Gaylord Perry and amps users are there. And Mantle used steroids on at least one occasion. Etc., etc. But Clean Hall.
   17. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 06, 2014 at 10:27 AM (#4765403)
"We don't know who's clean and who isn't." This is just defeatism at its worst. Justice isn't perfect, so let's not pursue justice at all?

No, let's do our best to find out who cheated and make sure that they are given the appropriate punishment. The system is far from perfect--but it's better than just throwing up our and hands and doing nothing.


The only problem with that is that it doesn't get Barry Bonds into the Hall of Fame. In order to do that, you have to cast the net of "How do we really know?" suspicion as widely as possible, all the way up to the Jeters and the Madduxes.
   18. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 06, 2014 at 10:28 AM (#4765405)
Really? Is there any suspicion at all that Derek Jeter may have used PEDs?


What is hilarious is that people would bet their houses that Jeter is clean.

Well, if they had one, anyway, following the bet they made about Andy Pettitte.

Any one of these "Jeter is clean" people telling you that they would have figured Pettitte for a user is lying.
   19. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: August 06, 2014 at 10:28 AM (#4765406)
How has Chris Truby's name not come up in this thread yet?
   20. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 06, 2014 at 10:30 AM (#4765410)
How has Chris Truby's name not come up in this thread yet?


And Mike Crudale.
   21. Dale Sams Posted: August 06, 2014 at 11:12 AM (#4765463)
Oh cmon, you guys aren't even trying:

Victor Martinez
Rajai Davis
Juan Uribe
Marlon Byrd
   22. Lassus Posted: August 06, 2014 at 11:15 AM (#4765468)
Chris Young - He didn't come by that fastball naturally.

Also, he didn't just become seven feet tall without help!

Wait, which Chris Young?
   23. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 06, 2014 at 11:19 AM (#4765473)
How has Chris Truby's name not come up in this thread yet?


I've been having to do actual work here at the office.

   24. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: August 06, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4765564)
1. The point: As #13 points out, there is a different standard for guilt, depending on bullcrap criteria like "slugger during the '90s" or "finesse pitcher" or "guy we like". Jeff Bagwell and Mike Piazza, despite no evidence at all, are facing PED accusations

Who here is doing that? Hve you any evidence, that outside of a couple of professional attention whores, anybody is doing this? Bagwell and Piazza both got HoF vote totals that weren't out of the norm with their traditional numbers. Which might show a lack of awareness and knowledge about advanced statistical analysis, and an under-appreciation for catchers. But both are comfortably outdistancing "known" guys like Bonds and McGwire, and both are on a pace that traditionally gets players comfortably elected.

1a. Point #2: Testing is obviously not that hard to beat. To use "X never tested positive" to say he was clean doesn't mean squat.

Again, where has anybody here done that?

2. Analogy: Child molester? Really? We're talking about people "cheating" (though it's tough to call it cheating when so many were doing it and those in charge didn't seem to care much until very recently) at a game vs. child molesting.

Which is rather the point. You shouldn't be so cavalier to throw around accusations, simply because it is a lesser evil. Especially, if there are material negative affects to those who have been so accused.

What if I instead just accused you of cheating on your wife/gf, simply because you belong to a class of people (men), who statistically cheat on their so at a high rate? You would be totally cool with that right?
   25. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: August 06, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4765568)
What is hilarious is that people would bet their houses that Jeter is clean.

What is hilarious, is the insistence of anti-anti-steroid zealots to respond to entirely fictitious arguments. Again, nobody here has made such a claim, or come even remotely close to making such a claim. But you just can't help yourself.

Have fun arguing against those voices in your head Ray.
   26. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 06, 2014 at 01:07 PM (#4765575)

What is hilarious, is the insistence of anti-anti-steroid zealots to respond to entirely fictitious arguments. Again, nobody here has made such a claim, or come even remotely close to making such a claim. But you just can't help yourself.

Have fun arguing against those voices in your head Ray.


As if there is a single anti-steroids zealot who believes that Jeter or Rivera might be users.
   27. Poster Nutbag Posted: August 06, 2014 at 01:15 PM (#4765583)
Let's wildly speculate who!

Todd Frazier
Khris Davis
Alcides Escobar
Chase Whitley
Howie Kendrick
Kolten Wong
Will Venable
Adam Lind
Oliver Perez
Scott Atchison

These are names of baseball players - some of which may or may not be implicated in such a scandal!


Now THIS is what I'm talking about!!!!!

Also, I say we start aiming for more pitchers. Particularly, the Brewers and Royals relievers....

(P.S. NOBODY here would EVER post theses lists, or so I was told, because this ain't ESPN.....)
   28. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: August 06, 2014 at 02:33 PM (#4765664)
As if there is a single anti-steroids zealot who believes that Jeter or Rivera might be users.

Might be? Sure. I guess I am no true Scotsman.
   29. Cooper Nielson Posted: August 06, 2014 at 03:10 PM (#4765707)
Chase Whitley

Completely unrelated to the topic, but after this reminder that there is a baseball player named Chase Whitley, don't you guys think it is weird that of the 6 guys in major league history named "Chase," 3 of them have approximately the same name?

Chase Utley
Chase Headley
Chase Whitley

I noticed this last night during the Tigers-Yankees game. I did a double-take when I thought I heard the Yankees had "Chase Utley" playing third base for them.
   30. Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant Posted: August 06, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4765741)
Chris Sale - First MLBer to test positive for crystal meth.
LaTroy Hawkins - HGH and EPO to close games in Colorado as the oldest player in baseball.
John Lackey - Side effect of HGH is to increase your jaw and brow; result is you sound like a mushmouthed dolt.
Koji Uehara - Always looks so nervous on the mound because he's afraid of testing positive.
Clay Buchholz - Second MLBer to test positive for crystal meth; first to have 17 bodies discovered in crawlspace.
   31. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 06, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4765757)

Completely unrelated to the topic, but after this reminder that there is a baseball player named Chase Whitley, don't you guys think it is weird that of the 6 guys in major league history named "Chase," 3 of them have approximately the same name?


Are you suggesting a conspiracy? This goes all the way to the White House!
   32. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 06, 2014 at 03:51 PM (#4765767)
#Thanksobama
   33. valuearbitrageur Posted: August 06, 2014 at 05:59 PM (#4765907)
No, let's do our best to find out who cheated and make sure that they are given the appropriate punishment. The system is far from perfect--but it's better than just throwing up our and hands and doing nothing.


By do our best, do you mean buy stolen evidence and thwart governmental investigations?

I think one of the names under investigation ends in Manfred.
   34. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: August 06, 2014 at 06:28 PM (#4765925)
Clay Buchholz - Second MLBer to test positive for crystal meth; first to have 17 bodies discovered in crawlspace.


I think the fact that he hasn't tested positive yet for meth is proof that the system is a joke. Also, good point about the serial killing! Sketchiest looking player in baseball today. He doesn't look like him but he's the Eric Show of today.
   35. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: August 06, 2014 at 06:31 PM (#4765926)
Let's wildly speculate who!

Through the Lahman database and Excel's RAND function I have come up with a definitive list:

Brett Cecil
Roger Bowman
Rene Tosoni
Hal Brown
Dizzy Nutter
Steamer Flanagan
Sparky Lyle
Bob Cain
David Patton
Emil Bildilli
Vern Benson
Hal Trosky

Presumably it was the drugs that made Dizzy Nutter so dizzy and such a nutter.
   36. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 06, 2014 at 06:39 PM (#4765931)
Every player in the major leagues either had a connection to Biogenesis, or played with or against a player who had a connection to Biogenesis, except the younger ones who have played with or against a player who played with or against a player who had a connection to Biogenesis. Applying the RICO statute would not be out of place here.
   37. toratoratora Posted: August 06, 2014 at 06:52 PM (#4765941)
Lucas Duda!

(Martino could relax then)

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