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Monday, August 04, 2014

Report: Pirates’ McCutchen expected to go on DL, may miss a month

An oblique for a hand leaves everyone oblique and handless.

The Pirates are expected to place reigning NL MVP Andrew McCutchen on the 15-day disabled list with a severe oblique strain, reports Ron Cook of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. He could miss three weeks to a month according to Cook’s source…

The Diamondbacks hit McCutchen with a pitch in his back and near his oblique on Saturday as retaliation for the Pirates accidentally hitting Paul Goldschmidt on Friday. Goldschmidt suffered a broken hand and is done for the year.

McCutchen had x-rays after being hit by the pitch and he told reporters everything came back clean. The oblique injury could be the result of the swing—players pull obliques on swings all the time—or it could be the result of the beaning. There’s no real way to know.

The District Attorney Posted: August 04, 2014 at 09:28 PM | 75 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: andrew mccutchen, injuries, pirates

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   1. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 04, 2014 at 09:48 PM (#4764409)
#### you Kirk Gibson.
   2. Lassus Posted: August 04, 2014 at 09:52 PM (#4764411)
Someone's next pitch needs to be at Gibson in the dugout.
   3. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: August 04, 2014 at 09:55 PM (#4764413)
Unbefuckinglievable. Seriously, fire Kirk Gibson now. Out of a cannon. Into the sun.
   4. Lassus Posted: August 04, 2014 at 09:58 PM (#4764416)
Oh, in other news, Plaschke said on Around the Horn today he had no problems with the pitch, that's the way baseball works. "Done the right way, game outcome not in doubt, behind him, not at the head". I also propose he gets thrown at.
   5. valuearbitrageur Posted: August 04, 2014 at 09:59 PM (#4764417)
According to CardsFatFanBoy, McCutcheon deserved it.
   6.     Hey Gurl Posted: August 04, 2014 at 10:08 PM (#4764421)
I'm 100% serious when I say that I would suspend Gibson for the season for this horseshit. And if he does it again I would Pete Rose him.
   7. esseff Posted: August 04, 2014 at 10:10 PM (#4764423)
Post-Gazette says McCutchen hurt himself swinging on a sac fly Sunday, not on the HBP on Saturday.
   8. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: August 04, 2014 at 10:12 PM (#4764424)
Post-Gazette says McCutchen hurt himself swinging on a sac fly Sunday, not on the HBP on Saturday.
Suspend Gibson anyway. Just to be sure.
   9. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 04, 2014 at 10:22 PM (#4764433)
Does anyone else think McCutchen was hamming it up a bit on the HBP? Maybe he had watched too much World Cup soccer? Doubtful that contributed to the injury, either, since it appears to be the result of later swing.
   10. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: August 04, 2014 at 10:25 PM (#4764435)
9-- I sure don't agree with you.
   11. Howie Menckel Posted: August 04, 2014 at 10:34 PM (#4764438)

"Post-Gazette says McCutchen hurt himself swinging on a sac fly Sunday, not on the HBP on Saturday."

you must be new here. don't EVER buck the narrative!

#therearencoincidences
   12. DKDC Posted: August 04, 2014 at 10:42 PM (#4764441)
I've never heard of a player straining a muscle on a HBP. Maybe if he was trying to avoid the pitch, he's twist in an unnatural way?

I'd wager it's a coincidence, but it's certainly a fun one.
   13.     Hey Gurl Posted: August 04, 2014 at 10:49 PM (#4764445)
"Post-Gazette says McCutchen hurt himself swinging on a sac fly Sunday, not on the HBP on Saturday."


Who cares?
   14. Howie Menckel Posted: August 04, 2014 at 10:55 PM (#4764448)

another potential juror who might not give Kirk Gibson the death penalty?

RELEASE THE HOUNDS
   15. cardsfanboy Posted: August 04, 2014 at 11:18 PM (#4764453)
According to CardsFatFanBoy, McCutcheon deserved it.


So reading comprehension is a skill you don't have.

Never said he deserved it, said it was the way the game was played, and that the Pirate pitchers, just like the Cardinal pitchers insist on pitching inside and if they hit multiple people in a series, a response is warranted from the other side. The Pirates hit three D-backs in two games.... If you can't control your pitches, you have to surrender the inside, or accept the inevitable retaliation from the other side, even if none of the hit batsmen was intentional.

edit: and that the team who has hit three people shouldn't get upset with the other team finally hitting one of theirs. Again, even if the hbp were unintentional, it doesn't matter, if your pitchers aren't willing to defend the batters from the other teams lack of caring, then you probably create an issue on the roster.
   16.     Hey Gurl Posted: August 04, 2014 at 11:24 PM (#4764455)
Howie, you seem to be getting less coherent with each passing day. I hope all is well.
   17. Gamingboy Posted: August 04, 2014 at 11:29 PM (#4764458)
I CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT I JUST READ.


(Oh, and #### Kirk Gibson, even if this isn't related whatsoever to the HBP)
   18.     Hey Gurl Posted: August 04, 2014 at 11:30 PM (#4764459)
I've never heard of a player straining a muscle on a HBP. Maybe if he was trying to avoid the pitch, he's twist in an unnatural way?


It's not possible that being smacked with a baseball can't weaken things such that you are more susceptible to strain?

I don't know. Frankly, it makes no difference. Gibson is still a thug, and the worst kind of thug, a cowardly one. I would love to see MLB make an example of him rather than tacitly supporting his pseudo-machismo bullshit. I'm so sick of this kind of horseshit taking place in the highest level of professional baseball. Take that #### back to the ####### Kirk Gibson Budweiser Association where it belongs, and keep it out of the Major ####### Leagues.
   19. cardsfanboy Posted: August 04, 2014 at 11:31 PM (#4764460)
Howie, you seem to be getting less coherent with each passing day. I hope all is well.


Everything he posted makes sense. It's sarcastic to make fun of groupthink.

His point is that 1. McCutchen's injury has nothing to do with the hit by pitch, but it doesn't stop the anti-Gibson crusaders for asking for his head, because he's a witch. 2. And that when someone doesn't fall into the group think, that they might get ravaged by the group think.

I don't agree with him personally, but it's perfectly coherent.
   20. cardsfanboy Posted: August 04, 2014 at 11:36 PM (#4764463)
It's not possible that being smacked with a baseball can't weaken things such that you are more susceptible to strain?

I don't know. Frankly, it makes no difference. Gibson is still a thug, and the worst kind of thug, a cowardly one. I would love to see MLB make an example of him rather than tacitly supporting his pseudo-machismo bullshit.


So if MLB punishes Gibson, that would be tacit support for teams like the Cardinals and Pirates who willy nilly bean a disproportionate number of batters and claim innocence because they are just pitching inside. Not really sure that is any better. I despise Gibson and his thuggish attitude and would love to see him driven out of baseball. But at the same time, there is only a limited number of options that a team can do to protect their players.

Personally I think an intentional beaning has a much less chance of doing long term injury than an accidental beaning because of lack of control and pitching inside. Lack of control while pitching inside puts the ball near the most vulnerable body spot, which is the wrist/hands etc. Hitting the small of the back or shoulder is less likely to have a long term injury than making direct contact with the bones in the arm/hand.

   21. Howie Menckel Posted: August 04, 2014 at 11:42 PM (#4764466)
"I don't agree with him personally, but it's perfectly coherent."

and to be both fair and coherent, I have disagreed with cardafanboy on recent topics, but I appreciate and respect his point here - and either, I way would not assume his next comment is something for me to agree or disagree with. As it should be.
   22. Bruce Markusen Posted: August 04, 2014 at 11:43 PM (#4764467)
Yes, let's just KILL Gibson even though

a) there's no proof that he ordered the "hit" against McCutchen

and

b) the HBP had nothing to do with the injury, an oblique strain that resulted from a swing the next day.

Don't worry, though, because from what I hear, La Russa is probably going to fire Gibson this winter.
   23. greenback calls it soccer Posted: August 04, 2014 at 11:48 PM (#4764469)
Does anyone else think McCutchen was hamming it up a bit on the HBP? Maybe he had watched too much World Cup soccer?

McCutchen does remind me of Arjen Robben, especially with his hair.
   24. cardsfanboy Posted: August 05, 2014 at 12:12 AM (#4764472)
(for the record, McCutchen is my absolute, favorite non-Cardinal in baseball. And it's not even close...well Okay...I also like Aramis Ramirez.... but he's a clear second behind McCutchen....so yes this news sucks. He was the favorite to win the MVP, he was on track for back to back MVP's and it would have been great.... but stuff happens)
   25. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: August 05, 2014 at 12:12 AM (#4764473)
Yes, let's just KILL Gibson even though

a) there's no proof that he ordered the "hit" against McCutchen

and

b) the HBP had nothing to do with the injury, an oblique strain that resulted from a swing the next day.
Sounds about right to me.
   26. Walt Davis Posted: August 05, 2014 at 12:24 AM (#4764474)
I've never heard of a player straining a muscle on a HBP. Maybe if he was trying to avoid the pitch, he's twist in an unnatural way?

Guys have strained muscles sneezing, a weird HBP twist could easily do it ...

But if they were related in this case, more likely that it would be something like he was bruised badly from the HBP, that soreness led him to do something unusual while swinging to avoid the irritation, that caused the muscle strain. Still, a bit of a stretch.

(I see what I did there.)

Yes, let's just KILL Gibson

Works for me, we can sort out the charges later.

Some might feel like execution is a bit harsh. But as Rose demonstrates, even a lifetime ban won't keep the guy from popping up every 6 months to annoy us, say stupid stuff and waste hours of our time posting about it. Death is really the only answer.

I am willing to consider a fight to the death between Gibson and Gossage with the winner receiving only a lifetime ban as long as ESPN can turn a profit off of it.
   27. Steve Treder Posted: August 05, 2014 at 12:32 AM (#4764476)
I am willing to consider a fight to the death between Gibson and Gossage with the winner receiving only a lifetime ban as long as ESPN can turn a profit off of it.

Toss Schilling in there and make it a three-way death match extravaganza, and I'm all behind it.
   28. cardsfanboy Posted: August 05, 2014 at 12:59 AM (#4764484)
Toss Schilling in there and make it a three-way death match extravaganza, and I'm all behind it.


I hate Schilling's politics, but he's arguably one of maybe 10 people in his political party with an iq over 90, so I'm not really ready to remove him from this universe quite yet.
   29. pthomas Posted: August 05, 2014 at 03:12 AM (#4764495)
Hockey pretty much has shut down fighting. Football has tried to shut down tacklers using their helmets as battering rams. Baseball has changed the rules to protect catchers from being knocked into next week by a hurtling baserunner. ( Or vice-versa).

The reason? Player contract insurance premiums. Sidney Crosby gets a nice contract, and gets concussed several times by players with many more penalty minutes than points. Football, well take your pick of injuries by player helmet missiles. Wonder what happened to the premiums for catchers all across baseball after Buster Posey had his leg broken? By Scott Cousins, a player with a .179 career average ( in 179 AB's!) "These things are just part of the game" purists all say. But the insurance companies make teams pay, and if the leagues don't adjust, it will cost them big time.

McCutchen has a 51 million dollar contract. No matter how you want to finagle the "not on purpose" or "just part of the game" arguments, insurers are looking at this as a huge issue. A major league star (allegedly, maybe, kinda sorta, or maybe not) has been put out of action by a borderline pitcher on the (allegedly, maybe, kinda sorta) orders of a major league manager in order to be "tough". As long as MLB goofs around with three day suspensions for pitchers and let managers off the hook for the possibility of serious injuries in these "retaliation" scenarios, the insurance companies will make them pay. Or maybe some poor unlucky hitter will have his picture taken in the hospital, like Tony C. Or worse.

Personally, I'd like to see a major league team take "retaliation" by (if possible) running up the score on a team. Get a team down, and just keep running and bunting and playing hard for all 27 outs, no matter what the scoreboard says or the "unwritten rules" say about not embarrassing another team. When a group of pitchers ERA takes a beating that will take several months to get back down (not to mention what that might do to contract negotiations later) you might just see a pitcher look his manager ( and his teammates) in the eye and say...No.
   30. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: August 05, 2014 at 04:15 AM (#4764498)
What is the 'protect your players' bullshit? You intentionally hitting another team's hitter just because the other team has the gall to pitch inside is not going to make the other team stop throwing inside. It's just being petty.
   31. The Duke Posted: August 05, 2014 at 07:24 AM (#4764502)
If batters don't want to get hit, don't hang over the plate, don't dive at pitches. Most HBPs are incidental like the one that took out Goldschmidt. Each of these guys knows that they can make millions by doing this at the risk of the occasional injury -- easy call. I'd rather see the rule altered so that umps can decide whether to award 1b or not. To me that would be good use of replay.

Pitchers should be able to pitch inside without accusations that they are headhunting.
   32. Greg K Posted: August 05, 2014 at 07:29 AM (#4764503)
Hockey pretty much has shut down fighting.

Shut down might be over-stating it.

If this chart is reliable fights are down from a mini-peak in around 2008-2009, but at the same level as they were in the immediate post-strike season. The late 80s look like the historic peak while the 60s had a far lower rate of fighting than the present day. I think the NHL has focused more on hits to the head than fighting (for the reasons you point out, the greatest threat to the career of a player like Crosby is a dangerous, cheap hit on him...I'd say the odds of Sidney Crosby being injured in a fight are pretty slim). I think there has been a lot of talk about how fights are archaic, and they have been going down in recent years, but nothing that is historically remarkable.

This table is interesting too, once again if it can be considered reliable. Over the past 15 years it looks like there are roughly .45 to .5 fights a game, with the current rate being .38. But in pre-season the average is over 1 fight per game with the current rate around 1. I guess this is because in the pre-season you have a lot of would-be goons trying to win themselves a roster spot.

EDIT: I should clarify - most guys doing the fighting aren't paid much and are fungible (that's why they're doing the fighting).
   33. Dan Lee is some pumkins Posted: August 05, 2014 at 07:48 AM (#4764506)
he's arguably one of maybe 10 people in his political party with an iq over 90
Please take this sort of thing to the Politics thread.
   34. vivaelpujols Posted: August 05, 2014 at 08:46 AM (#4764514)
Toss Schilling in there and make it a three-way death match extravaganza, and I'm all behind it.


Schilling's got enough baseball talent to make up for whatever asshattery he displays. Can't say the same about Gibson or Goose.
   35. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 05, 2014 at 09:00 AM (#4764518)
Yes, let's just KILL Gibson even though

a) there's no proof that he ordered the "hit" against McCutchen

and

b) the HBP had nothing to do with the injury, an oblique strain that resulted from a swing the next day.

Don't worry, though, because from what I hear, La Russa is probably going to fire Gibson this winter.


STRONG CONCUR
   36. Baldrick Posted: August 05, 2014 at 09:36 AM (#4764531)
So reading comprehension is a skill you don't have.

Never said he deserved it, said it was the way the game was played, and that the Pirate pitchers, just like the Cardinal pitchers insist on pitching inside and if they hit multiple people in a series, a response is warranted from the other side.

Please explain the difference between 'deserved' and 'warranted.'

I'm not saying there isn't one, but...c'mon. They're pretty close. Maybe back off on the 'you can't read' comments.
   37. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 05, 2014 at 10:03 AM (#4764540)
If batters don't want to get hit, don't hang over the plate, don't dive at pitches. Most HBPs are incidental like the one that took out Goldschmidt. Each of these guys knows that they can make millions by doing this at the risk of the occasional injury -- easy call. I'd rather see the rule altered so that umps can decide whether to award 1b or not. To me that would be good use of replay.

Pitchers should be able to pitch inside without accusations that they are headhunting.


Concur 100%.
   38. Howie Menckel Posted: August 05, 2014 at 10:03 AM (#4764541)

I'm fascinated by the "it must have been the HBP" assumptions. I'm starting to understand some of the slavish devotion to left and right mantras on the politics thread now (and will not talk politics here). Gibson bad, something happened, Gibson fault!
   39. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 05, 2014 at 10:05 AM (#4764543)
Personally I think an intentional beaning has a much less chance of doing long term injury than an accidental beaning because of lack of control and pitching inside. Lack of control while pitching inside puts the ball near the most vulnerable body spot, which is the wrist/hands etc. Hitting the small of the back or shoulder is less likely to have a long term injury than making direct contact with the bones in the arm/hand.

This is nonsense. Nobody should care about the occasional broken hand. It's trivial. Guys miss some time, who cares?

An intentional fastball aimed at the head or shoulder can ruin somebody's life. That's infinitely more important than a star missing a month or even a season.
   40. Lassus Posted: August 05, 2014 at 10:14 AM (#4764549)
I'm fascinated by the "it must have been the HBP" assumptions.

I'm not really seeing those that way. It's a.) Gibson is a stupid asshat in general (you can't really be denying that, can you?) and if not explicitly ordering this particular event (and I personally think he did), he certainly enables and encourages such behaviors and b.) I don't think it MUST have been the hbp, but it certainly might have been the hbp. As stated above, playing hard with one sore thing causes alteration of body movement and commonly engenders additional injury. The mere fact that it could have assisted in this strain is good enough reason to give Gibson a hard time. YMMV
   41. Howie Menckel Posted: August 05, 2014 at 10:38 AM (#4764560)

well, granted that what McCutchen believes is immaterial compared to - wait, compared to what?

http://www.foxsports.com/arizona/story/show-of-hand-all-but-pirates-like-ahmed-s-slide-080314

Andrew McCutchen left the game after feeling discomfort in his left side following his sacrifice fly in the top of the eighth inning. McCutchen said x-rays were negative, and he did not seem to believe the injury was the result of the pitch he took in the back in the ninth inning Saturday. "I thought I was cramping," McCutchen said. He said he received treatment for his back Sunday morning, but went through his warm-ups "fine, no issues. It wasn't a major issue besides being bruised."
   42. Lassus Posted: August 05, 2014 at 10:42 AM (#4764563)
- shrug -

That doesn't alter a single crazy-mad insanely unreasonable whack-job nutball rage-inspired thing I wrote in #40.
   43. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 05, 2014 at 10:43 AM (#4764565)
teams like the Cardinals and Pirates


Because it probably needs to be pointed out, given CFB's constant spinning:

The guys with lots of HBPs on recent Cardinals teams were mostly guys like Chris Carpenter (2nd in the NL in HBP in 2010), who had good control and were deliberately throwing at guys as part of baseball's macho bullshit code.

The guys with lots of HBPs on recent Pirates teams were mostly guys like Charlie Morton (3rd in the NL in HBP in 2011, 1st in 2013, and tied for 1st in 2014) and Edinson Volquez (1st in his league in 2008, 7th in 2012, and 8th in 2014), who have periodic issues with control (Morton: top 10 in the NL in walks in 2011 and in wild pitches in 2011 and 2014, Volquez: 4.6 career BB/9, 1st in walks in 2012, 1st in wild pitches in 2014) and were doing it out of incompetence.

Totally different thing.
   44. Howie Menckel Posted: August 05, 2014 at 10:57 AM (#4764578)

"That doesn't alter a single crazy-mad insanely unreasonable whack-job nutball rage-inspired thing I wrote in #40."

of course not
lol
   45. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: August 05, 2014 at 11:03 AM (#4764583)
The guys with lots of HBPs on recent Cardinals teams were mostly guys like Chris Carpenter (2nd in the NL in HBP in 2010), who had good control and were deliberately throwing at guys as part of baseball's macho bullshit code.


Yes, there was that one year Carpenter hit more guys than most. Most of the time he was down at typical starting pitcher levels.

The guys with lots of HBPs on recent Pirates teams were mostly guys like Charlie Morton (3rd in the NL in HBP in 2011, 1st in 2013, and tied for 1st in 2014) and Edinson Volquez (1st in his league in 2008, 7th in 2012, and 8th in 2014), who have periodic issues with control (Morton: top 10 in the NL in walks in 2011 and in wild pitches in 2011 and 2014, Volquez: 4.6 career BB/9, 1st in walks in 2012, 1st in wild pitches in 2014) and were doing it out of incompetence.


And yet, one of the absolute wildest of Pirates hurlers, Liriano, doesn't hit anyone.

As usual, this can be summed by, your guys obviously do it on purpose, my guys are just struggling with their control or trying to establish the inside of the plate.

   46. cardsfanboy Posted: August 05, 2014 at 11:08 AM (#4764588)
Yes, there was that one year Carpenter hit more guys than most. Most of the time he was down at typical starting pitcher levels.


It was also one of the few years in recent memories in which the Cardinals were near the bottom as a team of hit batsmen.

As usual, this can be summed by, your guys obviously do it on purpose, my guys are just struggling with their control or trying to establish the inside of the plate.


Exactly. Your guys hit guys on purpose as indicated by their season hit batters total, while our guys hit people on accident as indicated by seasonal hit batters total. Of course my argument is that it doesn't matter why they hit batters, just that they do, and should expect consequences. It took Harvey browbeating me with this point of view for me to accept it as a natural consequence of the teams decision to pitch inside.
   47. TJ Posted: August 05, 2014 at 11:37 AM (#4764620)
OK, there is strong suspicion that Gibson ordered the beaning of McCutchen, and we all know Gibson is a witch. They have a pool in their park- throw him into the pool. If he floats, he's guilty. If he drowns, he's innocent...
   48. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: August 05, 2014 at 12:03 PM (#4764656)
If this thread has shown one thing conclusively, it's that the battle over the proper use of "beaning" to mean only a HBP to the head has been utterly lost.
   49. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 05, 2014 at 12:05 PM (#4764657)
As usual, this can be summed by, your guys obviously do it on purpose, my guys are just struggling with their control or trying to establish the inside of the plate.


Sigh.

Let's look at it on a staff-wide level, then.

Pirates:
2011: 2nd HBP, 5th BB/9, 4th WP
2012: 12th HBP, 9th BB/9, 11th WP
2013: 1st HBP, 2nd BB/9, 2nd WP
2014: 1st HBP, 5th BB/9, 3rd WP

Cardinals:
2011: 12th HBP, 13th BB/9, 9th WP
2012: 6th HBP, 13th BB/9, 10th WP
2013: 3rd HBP, 11th BB/9, 15th WP
2014: 2nd HBP, 6th BB/9, 11th WP

For whatever reason, in recent years there seems to be a lot more correlation between HBP and other command-oriented stats like BB/9 and WP for the Pirates than there is for the Cardinals.
   50. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 05, 2014 at 12:07 PM (#4764662)
2012: 12th HBP, 9th BB/9, 11th WP


That season, BTW? It's the year Charlie Morton only pitched in nine games due to TJ surgery.
   51. ColonelTom Posted: August 05, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4764667)
Not to defend Gibson or the D'Backs, but Clint Hurdle and the Pirates don't have a lot of room to gripe about beanball wars.

For those who didn't see that game, the Pirates had just taken a 7-4 lead in the bottom of the 6th and had runners on first and second, two outs. Jamey Wright's first pitch, a 90 MPH "sinker" per Pitch F/X, sails up and in and nails McCutchen on the left shoulder. Pittsburgh assumes it's intentional and retaliates by having Justin Wilson throw two consecutive 97 MPH fastballs inside to the next Dodger hitter, Justin Turner, drilling him with the second one in the left arm. The umpire immediately, without a warning, ejects Wilson for the intentional HBP.

The idea that Wright was throwing at McCutchen there - as it loaded the bases for the switch-hitting Walker, who had homered earlier in the game - is absurd. Furthermore, anyone watching Wright's reaction to the HBP had to know that Wright wasn't trying to drill McCutchen. But Hurdle is a meathead, and his team plays this sort of macho nonsense. So is Gibson and so do the D'Backs, as McCutchen unfortunately discovered.

That doesn't excuse Delgado's actions or Gibson's (assuming he gave the order, though I have a feeling he didn't have to - his players know that their manager and their organization approve). But it does make it hard to feel too sorry for the Pirates.
   52. Eddo Posted: August 05, 2014 at 12:33 PM (#4764699)
If this thread has shown one thing conclusively, it's that the battle over the proper use of "beaning" to mean only a HBP to the head has been utterly lost.

Hey, at least I haven't seen the word "beaming" used.
   53. Willie Mayspedester Posted: August 05, 2014 at 01:38 PM (#4764760)
1. Don't let pitchers pitch inside without suspensions.
2. Offense goes up.
3. Profit???
   54. Willie Mayspedester Posted: August 05, 2014 at 01:43 PM (#4764765)
If this thread has shown one thing conclusively, it's that the battle over the proper use of "beaning" to mean only a HBP to the head has been utterly lost.

Hey, at least I haven't seen the word "beaming" used.


I like plunked when it's not at the head.
   55. alilisd Posted: August 05, 2014 at 01:49 PM (#4764769)
Schilling's got enough baseball talent to make up for whatever asshattery he displays. Can't say the same about Gibson or Goose.


Well, they're definitely not in Schilling's class as players, but Gibson was a heckuva ballplayer in his prime, despite injuries early in his career, and Goose was a remarkable reliever.
   56. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: August 05, 2014 at 01:51 PM (#4764774)
I like plunked when it's not at the head.
Right. Even Kramer knows that's the right terminology.
   57. Ron J2 Posted: August 05, 2014 at 02:00 PM (#4764786)
#53 HBP rates aren't a perfect proxy for how frequently pitchers work inside, but ... we've seen widely variable offensive levels under conditions where pitchers didn't go inside much (from the 20s to the mid-50s pitchers just didn't work inside much. Despite tough guy stories about people like Lefty Grove, Dizzy Dean and others)

Things really started to change only when there wasn't a realistic fear of killing somebody. Before helmets, guys like Sal Maglie or Early Wynn wouldn't have been tolerated.
   58. JE (Jason) Posted: August 05, 2014 at 02:14 PM (#4764805)
What is the 'protect your players' bullshit? You intentionally hitting another team's hitter just because the other team has the gall to pitch inside is not going to make the other team stop throwing inside. It's just being petty.

I agree but this bothers me way less than Gibson and others intentionally hitting another team's batter instead of trying to win close ballgames.
   59. Willie Mayspedester Posted: August 05, 2014 at 02:44 PM (#4764862)
#57 I was more joking than anything else. If guys got tossed whenever they threw remotely inside I think that guys would hang over the plate and offense would go up. I would guess that would only last until pitchers adjusted to the new rules but have no way of knowing that.
   60. Ron J2 Posted: August 05, 2014 at 02:53 PM (#4764877)
#59 I got the joking tone, no worries.

And yeah, hitters would absolutely game any automatic system.
   61. ursus arctos Posted: August 05, 2014 at 03:31 PM (#4764942)
Pirate beat reporter says that McCutchen has a broken rib, not an oblique strain.
   62. stanmvp48 Posted: August 05, 2014 at 03:44 PM (#4764968)
So, McCutcheon and Goldschmidt are out for a while. I don't know how long Tulo will be out. Who does this leave as the MVP favorite?
   63. bigglou115 Posted: August 05, 2014 at 03:45 PM (#4764969)
Yeah, hard to imagine broken ribs aren't a result of an impact injury.

I just can't agree with this line of thought by Gibson. The pitcher has the right to throw on and around the zone, the batters lean in to take away the inside and make it easier for the batters to hit. They don't get to complain when the pitcher doesn't acquiesce here. Saying the Diamondbacks get to retaliate is basically saying pitchers should be good little boys and do what the batter asks them to do. The double edge isn't on the pitchers, it's the batters. They risk getting hit to force pitches in their zone.

Edit: I guess my point is, hugging the plate is a strategy. You either get hit or get the ball where you want it. You don't get to cry when your strategy works.
   64. Ziggy Posted: August 05, 2014 at 03:46 PM (#4764970)
Let's say that it was clearly intentional. (Just play with the hypothetical for a minute.) Is there anything stopping the Pirates (or their insurance company) from suing Gibson and/or the pitcher? This is clearly going to cost them a lot of money.
   65. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: August 05, 2014 at 03:53 PM (#4764981)

So, McCutcheon and Goldschmidt are out for a while. I don't know how long Tulo will be out. Who does this leave as the MVP favorite?


Gomez or Puig, I suppose. It's really hard to pick an obvious favorite in the NL with these injuries, so the guy playing well for the most surprising contender is probably the best bet, especially given some of the bizarre anti-Puig sentiments out there. I doubt Kershaw will have the innings to be a realistic contender.
   66. Ron J2 Posted: August 05, 2014 at 04:02 PM (#4764996)
#64 Not a lawyer, but I'd think the odds are low that they could succeed. Jim Brewer did win a lawsuit against Billy Martin, but it was a sucker punch resulting in a broken jaw.

The implied waiver (probably) doesn't apply when an action taken by the other party is outside the norms of the sport, but this isn't a Steve Moore situation (and Moore hasn't had smooth sailing on the legal front either)

MLB (probably) has to worry about it only if they were ignoring something they knew to be dangerous. This (probably) isn't a legal time bomb like concussions and the NFL/NHL.
   67. stanmvp48 Posted: August 05, 2014 at 04:05 PM (#4765002)
Or Lucroy.
   68. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: August 05, 2014 at 04:14 PM (#4765014)
Pirate beat reporter says that McCutchen has a broken rib, not an oblique strain.


So I would have to imagine that there's a bench-clearing brawl before the next time the Pirates and Diamondbacks play?
   69. Into the Void Posted: August 05, 2014 at 04:25 PM (#4765027)
Stanton?
   70. Lassus Posted: August 05, 2014 at 04:26 PM (#4765030)
Did he get hit near enough a rib to break it? I thought he was hit in the back. I haven't seen the clip.
   71. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: August 05, 2014 at 04:27 PM (#4765031)
Did he get hit near enough a rib to break it? I thought he was hit in the back. I haven't seen the clip.


Your ribs are in the back, too.
   72. valuearbitrageur Posted: August 05, 2014 at 09:03 PM (#4765178)
Your ribs are in the back, too.


That's what the pitcher said when Gibson yelled at him for not following orders.
   73. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: August 06, 2014 at 12:42 AM (#4765260)
Edit: I guess my point is, hugging the plate is a strategy. You either get hit or get the ball where you want it. You don't get to cry when your strategy works.


I'd like to see it taken a step farther and have HBP actually get called as balls instead of HBP if the contact was between the plate and the batter's box. Every HBP could be reviewed automatically before the base is taken, so the ump wouldn't have to make the call.
   74. Squash Posted: August 06, 2014 at 02:24 AM (#4765293)
I just can't agree with this line of thought by Gibson.

It's been said before, but former (prominent) players seem to try very hard early in their managing careers to burnish their tough-guy old-school credentials including HBPs, yelling at players, trying to win the game from the bench (lots of hit and runs, IBBs and so on), etc. My armchair theory is they're secretly worried no one takes them seriously/thinks they're there just because they were a well-known player, so they overcompensate on the hardass side.
   75. Bug Selig Posted: August 06, 2014 at 12:24 PM (#4765539)
There is probably some truth to #74, but Kirk Gibson was an insufferable red-ass blowhard when he was 6.

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