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Friday, October 12, 2012

Report: Scott Rolen is leaning towards retirement

Tony LaRussa will not rest until he has driven Rolen out of the game!

Eight-time Gold Glove winner Scott Rolen had a nice little two-month resurgence for the Reds this summer, but he couldn’t keep it going in September and October. Now, with his contract up and free agency looming, he’s leaning towards retirement at age 37, USATODAY’s Bob Nightengale reports.

Rolen has been plagued by shoulder problems for years, and he again spent time on the DL this season when the soreness became too much to handle. A perennial All-Star in his prime, he played in 140 games just once and 120 games three times after turning 30. He hit .245/.318/.398 with eight homers and 39 RBI in 294 at-bats this season.

Because Rolen added so little to his stats after his first nine full seasons, he probably won’t sniff Cooperstown. It doesn’t help that he wasn’t properly rated when he was at his best.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 12, 2012 at 11:38 AM | 73 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, reds, scott rolen, third basemen

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   1. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: October 12, 2012 at 12:54 PM (#4266106)
Without the emergence of Frazier, the Reds may have tried to bring him back on a one year deal. But I don't think they'll make an offer, even as a backup.
   2. DL from MN Posted: October 12, 2012 at 12:55 PM (#4266107)
I think he's going to be Hall of Merit.
   3. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:10 PM (#4266130)
I'm expecting HOM too. But I'm often surprised how bad players turn out to be that I thought were awesome, and vice versa. OK not "bad" exactly, but not HOM material. For example Lou Brock "seemed" better than Jake Beckley but it turned out not to be so.
   4. AROM Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4266136)
Right on the border. Better than Ken Boyer, not as good as Ron Santo.
   5. SoSH U at work Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:18 PM (#4266140)
Because Rolen added so little to his stats after his first nine full seasons, he probably won’t sniff Cooperstown. It doesn’t help that he wasn’t properly rated when he was at his best.


I fear he's destined to become this generation's Santo.* Legitimately great glove at third, excellent bat. He should be an easy Hall of Fame choice, but he's probably gotta hope for a future functioning Vet's committee to have a chance.

* BBRef WAR really sees it this way.

   6. DL from MN Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:29 PM (#4266160)
He's not going to fare well being compared to Chipper Jones on the same first ballot. Chipper got a nice send-off. Rolen kind of went out with a whimper.
   7. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4266169)
Phillies fans will probably revel in Rolen's BBRef WAR -- 66.6.

Maybe it was better off that Rolen turned down the Phils megaoffer back in 2002 or whenever it was. Things would have gotten even uglier.
   8. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:38 PM (#4266177)
I predict that Scott Rolen gets 7 Hall of Fame votes.
   9. Anonymous Observer Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4266195)
He wasn't entirely right in the 2006 playoffs, but he did just enough to help the Cardinals win the World Series. For that, he'll have my eternal thanks.

And he'd be on my Hall of Fame ballot.
   10. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4266204)
TLR was on the local radio show promoting his book, and afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.

TRIVIA: CAN YOU NAME THEM?
   11. hokieneer Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4266205)
Scott's been on a major slope down since about August of '10. Shoulder/back issues were just too much.

The one thing that impressed me during the 1-1.5 seasons I got to see a healthy Rolen, was how good of a baserunner he was for his size. Always seemed to get good reads on balls and take the extra base. You could just tell he was an amazing athlete.
   12. BDC Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4266209)
Rolen is so high on the relevant third-baseman lists that I thought I'd do a comps list that includes both 3B and all outfielders, centered on him in terms of PAs and OPS+, with some speed-related totals, and ranked by WAR Fielding Runs:

Player           Rfield   PA OPS+  3B  SB       Pos
Adrian Beltre       185 8697  112  30 115    
*5/D64
Scott Rolen         172 8518  122  43 118        
*5
Robin Ventura       154 8271  114  14  24  
*53/D641
Ichiro Suzuki        96 8723  113  80 452    
*98/D7
Ken Boyer            74 8272  116  68 105    
*58/36
George Burns         70 8251  114 108 383    
*798/5
Carlos Beltran       69 8349  122  74 306    
*89/D7
Sal Bando            37 8287  119  38  75 
*5/D36417
Ron Cey              19 8344  121  21  24     
*5/D3
Paul ONeill           8 8329  120  21 141  
*9/73D81
Stan Hack             2 8508  119  81 165      
*5/3
Heinie Manush        
-1 8419  121 160 113    *789/3
Carlos Lee          
-18 8787  113  19 125     *73/D
Amos Otis           
-35 8247  115  66 341   *8/79D5
Ken Singleton       
-59 8559  132  25  21    *9D7/8
Toby Harrah         
-96 8767  114  40 238   *564/D9
Bobby Bonilla      
-121 8257  124  61  45  5973/D81 


It gives one a sense of what kind of outfielder has a batting career similar to these outstanding 3B. My gosh, there doesn't seem to be a HOFer in the bunch, though Boyer & Hack IIRC are in the Hall of Merit, and there might be others I've forgotten. No wait, Heinie Manush is in the Hall of Fame, who knows why.

The 3B on that list tend to be elite players, though it confirms AROM's point that they're also not the inner circle at 3B, not the Bakers and Boggses and Bretts of the position.
   13. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:53 PM (#4266211)
afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.


JD Drew
Canseco
   14. JJ1986 Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4266214)
Colby Rasmus?
   15. hokieneer Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4266215)
Without the emergence of Frazier, the Reds may have tried to bring him back on a one year deal. But I don't think they'll make an offer, even as a backup.

I'm not opposed to the Reds making an offer for a 3b, even with Frazier. It's likely Ludwick will decline the $5M mutual option and want at least a 2 year deal. Bringing in a full time 3b and letting Heisey/Frazier play in LF with Frazier getting 500 PA being the super-sub at LF/3b/1b is an option.
   16. Sweatpants Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4266223)
TLR was on the local radio show promoting his book, and afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.

TRIVIA: CAN YOU NAME THEM?
Todd Cruz, Francisco Barrios, Aurelio Rodriguez, and Lynn McGlothen?

Edit: Didn't know that Baker ever played for La Russa.
   17. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4266224)
I'm hard pressed to determine whether Schmidt or Rolen was the better fielder, having seen all of Schmidt's career and much of Rolen's (didn't see much when I lived in KC when Rolen started). I know Beltre is really good but haven't see that much of him -- is he really better than Rolen? Wow.
   18. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: October 12, 2012 at 01:58 PM (#4266225)
TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.


Rolen
Canseco
Rasmus
Ozzie
   19. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:00 PM (#4266228)
TLR was on the local radio show promoting his book, and afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.

TRIVIA: CAN YOU NAME THEM?


Ozzie Guillen, Dusty Baker, Reggie Jackson, and Wayne Nordhagen?
   20. BDC Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:01 PM (#4266230)
I've seen a lot of Schmidt and Beltre, much less of Rolen. Schmidt and Beltre are hard for me to compare, because I saw Schmidt play almost exclusively on artificial turf, which meant a very different style. Beltre reminds me a bit of a great hockey goalie; he's a really supple guy, lightning-quick. Schmidt was fast straight ahead as well as quick (Beltre's not fast), and so he was outstanding at charging the ball, and Schmidt had a better arm than Beltre. I don't know where Rolen fits in, so my remarks are somewhat oblique, not to say pointless :)
   21. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:04 PM (#4266234)

Rolen
Canseco
Rasmus
Ozzie


The answer was never revealed, but my best guess was Rasmus, Ozzie and Rolen, and I don't know for the fourth. Did TLR not get along with Canseco or are you saying that just because of his later shenanigans and roid accusations?
   22. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4266237)
Ozzie Guillen, Ozzie Smith, Ozzie Canseco, and Tom Pagnozzi?
   23. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4266242)
The answer was never revealed, but my best guess was Rasmus, Ozzie and Rolen, and I don't know for the fourth.


Darryl Kile.
   24. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4266244)
Jimmy Journell, Lorenzo Gray, Matt Sinatro, and Roger Smithberg?
   25. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4266249)
Schmidt was fast straight ahead as well as quick


Just saw an old clip of ABC's Battle of the Superstars (or whatever that was called). It was the 100-yard dash final (won by Lynn Swann, with gargantuan shotputter Brian Oldfield coming close for second) and Dave Kingman was the lone baseball representative to make the race. The commentators mentioned that he'd defeated Schmidt to make the final.
   26. Jim Wisinski Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4266250)
23: I laughed
   27. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4266252)
Bringing in a full time 3b and letting Heisey/Frazier play in LF with Frazier getting 500 PA being the super-sub at LF/3b/1b is an option.

You might want to take a look at the 3B options before you embark on that plan. We've been obsessing in Philly all year no one has a very good solution.
   28. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:18 PM (#4266258)
Bringing in a full time 3b and letting Heisey/Frazier play in LF with Frazier getting 500 PA being the super-sub at LF/3b/1b is an option.


If the price is right Kevin Youkilis would be a great fit. He's from Cincinnati, he's a talented hitter and as a righty fits nicely between Votto and Bruce (or around them in some capacity) and he's probably going to be banged up enough that Frazier would get ample at bats. I love Youk so I'm biased, I think he's a good fit everywhere.
   29. hokieneer Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:18 PM (#4266260)
You might want to take a look at the 3B options before you embark on that plan. We've been obsessing in Philly all year no one has a very good solution.


Yeah I have not looked at the options. The only one I know is a FA off the top of my head is Youk. Youk is a hometown guy and all, but I'm pretty sure the Reds can get a better option in LF and keep Frazier at 3b.
   30. Spahn Insane Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:24 PM (#4266267)
23: I laughed

Yeah, so'd I. See you in hell.

EDIT: Perhaps "Josh Hancock" would've been slightly less tasteless...
   31. How Flounder got here, he hasn't a clue. Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4266271)
Maybe Ron Gant? IIRC, he pretty much called TLR a racist after he left St. Louis.
   32. GuyM Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:33 PM (#4266283)
The answer was never revealed, but my best guess was Rasmus, Ozzie and Rolen, and I don't know for the fourth.

Brian Jordan?
   33. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:36 PM (#4266288)
Randy Ready, Larry Luebbers, Delino DeShields, and Lerrin LaGrow?
   34. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:36 PM (#4266289)
I'd be stunned if Canseco wasn't on the list. TLR strikes me as one of those guys who views "ratting out" someone as the lowest of the low.
   35. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4266290)
hokie, Youk's about it. Big risk there, I think, as the bidding might be energetic and he gets a bigger, longer contract that we expect. For a team that has Frazier in the wings, it's a better risk than some team like Philly who has Kevin Frandsen, Freddie Galvis or excretable MiniMart as backups.
   36. just plain joe Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4266292)
Brian Jordan?


Did Jordan and TLR not get along? I'm asking because Jordan seemed well thought of when he played for the Cardinals. I've seen him on several Cardinals telecasts over the years and the impression you get is that Jordan enjoyed playing in St. Louis.
   37. Moloka'i Three-Finger Brown (Declino DeShields) Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4266301)
33: Is TRL anti-alliteration?
   38. GuyM Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:46 PM (#4266304)
Jordan and TLR clashed at one point. But a quick Google search turns up an article suggesting they are on good terms today. So I guess not.....

Another candidate: Ron Gant, who once said TLR had trouble getting along with Black players.
   39. hokieneer Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4266313)
hokie, Youk's about it. Big risk there, I think, as the bidding might be energetic and he gets a bigger, longer contract that we expect. For a team that has Frazier in the wings, it's a better risk than some team like Philly who has Kevin Frandsen, Freddie Galvis or excretable MiniMart as backups.


Yeah. The Reds don't necessarily need a 3b. I was just trying to think outside the box of trying to upgrade the offense. I'm confident Frazier can handle the full time job and produce at the plate and in the field nicely.

As much of a risk as Youk is, I consider giving Ludwick 2+ years just as equal of a risk. Plus Youk at 3b would presumably require Frazier playing LF, which is not his "natural" position.
   40. Scott Ross Posted: October 12, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4266315)
Setting aside whether he makes it or not, doesn't Rolen at least deserve to make the HoF? He's 8th all-time among 3B in WAR, and 5th in WAR/PA--if a guy is this clearly among the top 10 at his position, don't you punch his ticket?
   41. phredbird Posted: October 12, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4266332)
TLR was on the local radio show promoting his book, and afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.

TRIVIA: CAN YOU NAME THEM?


i say rolen, lankford, drew and rasmus.

i believe ozzie won't talk to him.
   42. BDC Posted: October 12, 2012 at 03:06 PM (#4266334)
One thing to dig about Rolen (we had a trivia question on this, this summer) is the *5 standing alone in his B-Ref position column. Never played an inning anywhere else, and despite interleague and some time in the AL, never even DH'd. Including his ample postseason play, too.
   43. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 12, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4266342)
[42] Wow, that's pretty cool! I thought I remembered him playing SS a couple of times. Looking back, I must be thinking of the guy he was traded for, Troy Glaus.
   44. hokieneer Posted: October 12, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4266350)
[42] Wow, that's pretty cool! I thought I remembered him playing SS a couple of times. Looking back, I must be thinking of the guy he was traded for, Troy Glaus.


Yeah I seem to remember him having a SS rating one year in Strat-o-Matic, but I must be thinking of Beltre or Glaus.
   45. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 12, 2012 at 03:27 PM (#4266371)
i hate being right about rolen's 2010. he so radically changed his approach to sit on the inside corner i figured it was scott realizing the just could not handle the outside half any longer

pitchers adjusted and then he got hurt and then he was done.

sigh......
   46. silhouetted by the sea Posted: October 12, 2012 at 03:30 PM (#4266375)
(42) Is that the record for most career games while only playing one position? I looked up most games played a 3rd base and everyone above Rolen played at least a few games at other positions.
   47. JJ1986 Posted: October 12, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4266381)
Luis Aparicio has 2599 games - all at shortstop.
   48. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 12, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4266406)
i apologize for the first sentence. while accurate i hate the way that sounds. i tried to delete but the edit function just spooled and nothing happened

again, apologies for that sentence. it reads awful
   49. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 12, 2012 at 04:22 PM (#4266425)
Also laughed at 23. Also going to Hell.
   50. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 12, 2012 at 04:23 PM (#4266426)
Maybe Ron Gant? IIRC, he pretty much called TLR a racist after he left St. Louis.


Or Ray Lankford, who IIRC TLR denigrated after he was gone, saying something about how Lankford whiffed all the time.
   51. SoSH U at work Posted: October 12, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4266429)
So, if I'm reading this right, Tony was probably undercounting.

   52. alilisd Posted: October 12, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4266442)
My gosh, there doesn't seem to be a HOFer in the bunch


I hope Beltran gets some consideration, but the missed time at 23, 32 and 33 combined with being one of those players who's really good at a LOT of things rather than really great at one or two may cost him.
   53. Portia Stanke Posted: October 12, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4266452)
If this is the end, Rolen will still eventually get into the Hall, but he'll probably be in the same boat as Edmonds for a long time. Too bad there won't be any sportswriters crowing about how much teams feared Rolen's defense.

i say rolen, lankford, drew and rasmus.

i believe ozzie won't talk to him.


Drew might be the most boring, dull human being who ever pulled up a stirrup. What could Drew have possibly done to merit Don Tony's dreaded silent treatment? And Lankford came back for that final hurrah with the Cards. I don't think he and Tony left things on bad terms.

edit:
Or Ray Lankford, who IIRC TLR denigrated after he was gone, saying something about how Lankford whiffed all the time.


The whiff, whiff, whiff comment was WRT Gant. He made some general comment about striking out when they traded Lankford for Woody Williams (that turned out pretty well), but then Tony brought him back as a bench player a couple of years later.
   54. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: October 12, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4266454)
Also laughed at 23. Also going to Hell.

Me also.

So, if I'm reading this right, Tony was probably undercounting.

I think the number of players who wouldn't speak to Tony is probably more than the numbers of players Tony won't speak to.

Maybe Ron Gant? IIRC, he pretty much called TLR a racist after he left St. Louis.

Tony did famously love Dave Stewart though. Stew appeared at Tony's number retirement ceremony in St Louis last year. Rickey Henderson was not there.
   55. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: October 12, 2012 at 04:52 PM (#4266457)
Darryl Kile.

Primey and an eternity of fire and brimstone.
   56. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: October 12, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4266460)
He wasn't entirely right in the 2006 playoffs, but he did just enough to help the Cardinals win the World Series. For that, he'll have my eternal thanks.


I still believe he should have been the 2006 WS MVP. .421/.476/.737 (1.213 OPS), key home run off of Verlander in game one, great baserunning (forcing an Inge error later that game) etc. When you add in the injury back story (he looked like toast in the NLDS) and the fight with TLR, it makes it all the more relevant.

David Eckstein won the MVP with a .364/.391/.500 (.891 OPS), and a lot of his performance was luck (one of his "doubles" was a clearly misplayed fly ball to CF, etc).

Anyway, I don't remember the details, but Kerry Robinson figured fairly negatively in Bissinger's book about TLR. He might be one of the four.

Oh, here's an interesting list. I had forgotten about Steve Kline.
   57. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 12, 2012 at 04:58 PM (#4266467)

The whiff, whiff, whiff comment was WRT Gant. He made some general comment about striking out when they traded Lankford for Woody Williams (that turned out pretty well), but then Tony brought him back as a bench player a couple of years later.


Ah yes, that's right.
   58. bjhanke Posted: October 12, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4266493)
Ozzie Smith did not deal well with being benched for Royce Clayton, and there has been bad blood between him and TLR ever since. My other guesses would be Colby Rasmus and Rick Ankiel. I don't know anything about TLR's relationship with his various players on the As.

Brian Jordan was wildly overrated by STL fans because he had obvious tools. He could run and throw and had power. That he took few walks and had other weaknesses in his game were things that are not visible to the average fan. Willie McGee is the same. STL fans only remember the .300 batting averages and the occasional great postseason play. That he didn't walk, struck out a lot, was a lousy base stealer for someone with his speed, had little power and an ineffective arm were things that are not so visible. - Brock Hanke
   59. Portia Stanke Posted: October 12, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4266508)
Brock: Ankiel was one of Tony's most beloved and sheltered players. The P-D is full of old stories in which Tony praises Ankiel endlessly for his courage, etc. And BJ was one of the greatest defensive players I've ever seen when he was with the Cards. He was toolsy, yes, but he was wonderful all-around, regularly registering 5 WAR with his 98 season coming in at 6.8 by BBR WAR.

Always enjoy your longer posts about the halcyon days of the club, btw.
   60. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: October 12, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4266521)
I didn't laugh @ 23 because he beat me to it. I was going to ask if there were 3 others besides Kile.
   61. KJOK Posted: October 12, 2012 at 05:53 PM (#4266543)
...afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.


That's a good one.

I think he tried to reach out to Ozzie, so it may not be him.
Lankford was certainly on the list, but think they made up.
Rolen I think the same - they made peace.
Gant - Don't think they talk
Canseco - Probably on the list.
Probably a White Sox player in there somewhere - he always had a least one player per team he didn't talk to.
Rasmus - Definitely.
   62. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 12, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4266547)
Since everyone likes the Darryl Kile reference in #23 so much, we should give some credit to Sweatpants who listed FOUR dead ex-LaRussa players way back in post #16.
   63. KJOK Posted: October 12, 2012 at 06:03 PM (#4266554)
Since everyone likes the Darryl Kile reference in #23 so much, we should give some credit to Sweatpants who listed FOUR dead ex-LaRussa players way back in post #16.

Definitely - I didn't remember McGlothen had played for the White Sox.
   64. Walt Davis Posted: October 12, 2012 at 06:34 PM (#4266637)
Rolen and Beltran seem like excellent "HOF" comps to me. Good(great) runners, good(great) defense, good not great hitters for their position, injury histories (Rolen more than Beltran) and now bouncing around a bit. Rolen will be an interesting case to see whether the voters are starting to shift to a more "sabermetric" view of these matters. He does have the advantage of 8 GG to go with the fab fancy defensive numbers (whereas Beltre doesn't) so no voter is going to completely ignore Rolen's defense.
   65. Chris Fluit Posted: October 12, 2012 at 08:40 PM (#4266933)
I think he's going to be Hall of Merit.


Almost definitely. The only third basemen with more than 60 WAR who haven't made the Hall of Merit are Bando (60.6) and Bell (60.8) and Rolen easily beats both of them.
   66. Danny Posted: October 12, 2012 at 08:46 PM (#4266941)
Ruben Sierra?
   67. greenback calls it soccer Posted: October 12, 2012 at 11:57 PM (#4267367)
Anyway, I don't remember the details, but Kerry Robinson figured fairly negatively in Bissinger's book about TLR.

Didn't Robinson get a job as a Cardinals scout before TLR left? I assume that doesn't happen without at least some input from TLR.

   68. cardsfanboy Posted: October 13, 2012 at 03:24 AM (#4267769)
TLR probably won't talk to Ozzie, he tried to patch things up, left him an open invitation to spring training as a coach every year, and Ozzie went on the offensive and said something about TLR, and TLR then revoked the invitation.

I wouldn't be surprised if Canseco is on the list, TLR is really ticked off about Canseco. Not the ratting out part, but the 'glee' in which Canseco seems to enjoy doing the ratting.

TLR has tried to make amends with Rolen and used to get along really well with him, I don't think that riff is permanent. As mentioned TLR loves Ankiel, no way is he on the list. Someone mentioned Baker, and the evidence that TLR is playing psychopathic games with his managerial style, is that him and Baker are actually pretty good friends. As recently as last season they were seen eating dinner together, so he's not on that list. I don't think Drew is on that list either, Drew doesn't have the personality to engineer that much emotion. Gant accused TLR of racism, so that is a good point in his being on the list. Jordan admitted to a riff with TLR, while defending TLR from Gant's comment, I think Jordan is the type of guy that can realize that it's a competitive environment, away from the field, and give your emotions time to heal, and things are different. Maybe it's Tino, Tino's little baby ass attitude when he left put a good size riff(I guess he couldn't handle the St Louis press) Kerry Robinson figured in the Bissinger book, but that was because he thought he should be starting, I think once he realized it wasn't TLR that was keeping him from an everyday job, that he was able to put it behind him.

I would put Rasmus as the third. I wouldn't be surprised if the fourth is someone we don't know anything about. Heck it might be Steve Kline, I'm not sure TLR ever really forgave him for the flicking off thing.
   69. cardsfanboy Posted: October 13, 2012 at 03:26 AM (#4267770)
I hope Rolen doesn't retire, I think that if he finds a good place to play 3-5 days a week, that he can have a valuable season. His body cannot handle the rigors of playing everyday, but when he gets rest, he seems to be almost reborn.
   70. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: October 13, 2012 at 07:12 AM (#4267787)
Having slept on it, it's not as good a joke as first thought. One can speak to the dead. Maybe they don't answer, but, you can speak to them still.
   71. michaelplank has knowledgeable eyes Posted: October 13, 2012 at 08:01 AM (#4267796)
I also saw all or most of Schmidt's and Rolen's time in Philadelphia. I'm confident that Rolen had the stronger arm. Probably a litle more range to his left, too... which makes sense since he's 6'4 and quick. Both were great at coming in on bunts and choppers, and at going to their right.
   72. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: October 13, 2012 at 08:58 AM (#4267807)
I'm confident that Rolen had the stronger arm.

Memory is faulty and all that, but I'm thinking the arm strengths might be equivalent but Rolen had a quicker release. I remember Schmidt having a longish arm action, at least on non-charge plays.
   73. phredbird Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4267985)
Maybe it's Tino, Tino's little baby ass attitude when he left put a good size riff


tino is one of the four ex-cardinal players i'm never speaking to.

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