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1. OCD SS Posted: September 30, 2011 at 11:39 AM (#3945852)I've never cared for Tito's in-game tactics; his strength seems to lie in implementing the strategies of the front office and then keeping everyone's personal issues in check and out of the media as much as possible. I'm much more concerned about the former than the later.
I think Francona has been a good manager for the Sox. But, apart from a few exceptional cases, manager quality is contextual and variable. Players managers like Tito come with expiration dates - at some point, they lose authority in the clubhouse, and the team has to move on.
Obviously losing the clubhouse is a two way street, and I expect we'll hear about a lot of player jackassery in the next few weeks and months. Players bear the responsibility for their behavior. But the manager's job is to manage all his players, including the jackasses. And Francona, effective a he's been in the past, lost the ability to do that with these players, this year, in this context.
The Red Sox basically need to remove a few clubhouse cancers, and otherwise tinker around the edges of a solid talent base. It will be easier for new management to do that than for the incumbents.
I would be loath to see Reyes on the Red Sox, but that would be awesome, regardless of team.
Someone, please make it so.
I'm disappointed Francona is leaving, but if it's his choice to leave, then he shouldn't stay. I think it's more likely than not that the next manager will be (on average) worse than Francona, but a Francona who actively wants to leave shouldn't be kept against his will (nor would I want to try to talk him out of it). Oi. What a mess.
EDIT: never mind the first paragraph. I've found the other thread.
I still think you're using this phrase differently than how others do. To me, "lost the clubhouse" suggests the team has actively turned on the manager, openly rebelling or deliberately choosing to ignore his directives. That's not the impression I'm getting. It seems that what worked for Theo in the past was not working with this year's team. It's a subtle but meaningful difference to me. You can potentially recover from what happened this year. I don't think you can ever recover from losing the clubhouse.
At this point, however, I think it's in everyone's best interests that he exit.
TI-85 or WOPR?
He had a tough time, as whenever he did stuff right it was assumed he was just following orders from the FO, and when he failed he got all the blame.
I see him as a great Torre-style manager, more about handling egos, and working with veterans, not a guy you hire to develop young players or manage a young team.
I guess if the clubhouse was a wreck this year he takes part of the balme, but at some point it has to be the players fault.
Hope he ends up somewhere good.
I guess with both Theo and Tito I feel there probably isn't a big enough upgrade out there to get rid of the guy.
So who was the best man at his wedding?
Likewise, Francona was good at it, while Brad Mills was his bench coach. I can't point to any specific action - like Torre moving A-Rod to 8th in the order, for example - that would suggest he was no longer good at it after Mills was gone. But the general result feels (today) about the same.
On that note, maybe it's not just who's in charge, but who is there to talk sense to him. Maybe it works better as a partnership.
That's an interesting take. Off the cuff I'll say that maybe it's as simple as having someone to ##### to when things aren't working out.
I think it's more like having someone to tell you your stupid ideas are stupid before you actually take action.
It wouldn't surprise me that, if Francona steps away, it'll be because he feels he can't replicate (without Mills) what he had. If that's the case, I don't see him taking another managerial job; it's more likely that he stays on the sidelines, or a consulting role. If he goes back to coaching it'd be in the bench coach role in Houston, with Mills.
Kevin Youkilis
Jonathan Papelbon
Dustin Pedroia
Jon Lester
Clay Buchholz
Jacoby Ellsbury
Daniel Bard (I am sure others can dispute his success)
So that's what, five guys who have been All Stars? An MVP and two other guys who have been MVP candidates?
I am not trying to tell anyone how to think but for a team in a perpetual 'Win Now' mode integreating, even USING, young players is something MOST managers resist vehemently.
This looks to be a pretty solid record.
But I am on the record as stating that Francona strikes me as similar to Walter Alston in that in an insane environment he has stayed very sane. And produced.
If the Sox kick him to the curb there better be d*mn sure about option B.
Also, he's a journalist, not his best friend. Use his real name!
When exactly did he become "Tito," anyway? Seemed like he was "Terry" until about six months ago.
The weird thing is, Tito was his dad's nickname. Usually the son gets some sort of diminutive of his father's nickname, like "Little Sarge," but not the exact same nickname. It's like calling David Bell "Buddy."
He's been called Tito pretty much his entire time in Boston. I do agree it's a little odd to have the same nickname as his old man.
I just hope they get to use option B and don't have to resort to option J.
This definitely confused me when he first became manager of the Sox, especially because I didn't remember him being called "Tito" when he was the Phillies' manager, and I knew his dad went by "Tito".
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