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Sunday, August 10, 2014

Roenicke Reiterates Aggressive Baserunning Philosophy

a very good article where the brewers manager explains why he is ok with with his team running into 500 outs a season on the bases

Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 03:38 PM | 51 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: baserunning, brewers, milwaukee

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   1. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 03:46 PM (#4768093)
i have written before about what i think makes roenicke successful as a manager. this article captures this quite well
   2. cardsfanboy Posted: August 10, 2014 at 04:12 PM (#4768119)
I like the points that Roenicke makes about how when you alter one aspect of a players game, you have no idea how that alters their thinking/play on other aspects. I also like that he says he teaches a different philosophy than he had as a player. I think the best coaches and managers have been the ones who looked at their career and saw what they did and are realized that isn't necessarily the only way to go about doing things. (See Billy Beane for the most famous example, but plenty of other successful coaches have found success with a philosophy that could be opposite of what they did as a player.)

The thinking presented in the article, points to a thing that stat analysis will probably never be able to analyze, and that is how a manager has an affect on his players performance.
   3. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 04:16 PM (#4768122)
cfb

this is why tony muser was such a failure. he actively sought out guys who played like he did not realizing that he stunk as a player
   4. cardsfanboy Posted: August 10, 2014 at 04:45 PM (#4768154)
That is one of the criticism about Mabry as a hitting coach over McGwire. McGwire doesn't coach people to try and hit towering homeruns or take until you see the fat pitch. He teaches a hitting philosophy of visualizing what the bat is going to be like, the pitches thrown to you, what you will do etc... Meanwhile Mabry is coaching everyone to his hitting style. Avoid strike outs, hit line drives, protect the plate with two strikes etc...no matter who you are and what skills it took to get you to the majors. I think he has actively hurt Taveras development as he's more passive than he was in the minors.
   5. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 04:48 PM (#4768161)
cfb

that explains the cards being so dependent on babip going their way

i figured it was st louis trying to run counter to the swing from the heels approach so prevalent. and there is something to being contrarian

but right now the cards seem to need 5 hits in an inning to score a run because eveyrone other than wong is do d8mn slow and all the hits are singles
   6. salviaman Posted: August 10, 2014 at 06:28 PM (#4768202)
What I suspect this shows is that players are not being coached properly along the way to the major leagues. The more talented ones are encouraged to just do their thing, lest their talent be inhibited. In a word, that's simply bad coaching, or coaching out of fear. Then they make the bigs, and it's too late to change much of anything. Allowing players to make bad baserunning decisions because you are afraid that it will affect other parts of their game is just an unfortunate result that Roenicke has to go along with if he wants to keep his job. The inmates are truly running the asylum there. The Cubs with Theo and Jed make sure to mention how their ace hitter prospects must show that they are competent in other aspects, such as reliable fielding, and good judgement all around. The promotion of Baez seems to go against this philosophy. But maybe Bill James had it right in an old Abstract when he wrote that as soon as you are better than the guy you are replacing, raw or not, you will get the job. It's not an easy thing to balance,,
   7. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 06:41 PM (#4768204)
The inmates are truly running the asylum there.

this is a dumb statement. i normally refrain from such posts but what's dumb is dumb

the brewers hustle nonstop every game. that is their manager

ryan braun moved from left field to right field to let a young guy get his chance. that's the manager.

rickie weeks went from being a veteran regular to being a platoon guy with no grousing or impact on his effort when in the lineup. that's the manager

marcos estrada was benched for a rookie pitcher and again, no b8tching in the press. that's the manager

ron has his flaws. but he commands the respect of his players and they respond to his direction however flawed it may be at times
   8. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 06:42 PM (#4768205)
and if you have the gall to suggest i am an 8sskisser for the brewers manager you have clearly missed the last 3 years of posts at bbtf so have no standing to make any posts regarding milwaukee

   9. baxter Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:05 PM (#4768211)
This article and the Pat Jordan one on curveballs are excellent. Thanks for posting.
   10. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:12 PM (#4768216)
baxter

you are welcome. i figured there was a method to ron's approach. the brewers (mostly carlos gomez) run into outs constantly. drives brewer fans loony

   11. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:13 PM (#4768218)
i have written before about what i think makes roenicke successful as a manager. this article captures this quite well

Roenicke may be a great manager, but in that situation, he should have given Gomez the "don't try and steal" sign.

Especially if you cultivate aggressiveness in your players, you need to rein that in when it is counterproductive. I would think that running into game losing outs is more likely to inhibit a player from being aggressive than getting a stop sign now and again.
   12. salviaman Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:13 PM (#4768220)
Well, that was my first post here in a while, and I now recall why that is. Yes, I'm "dumb", thank you very much.

I never meant to suggest that he is a bad manager in all respects, In fact, I know nothing about Roenicke. I was just going by his actual statements on this particular issue of letting players make bad baserunning decisions on the false guise of being "aggressive", and his worrying that it might cause the players to be tentative in other aspects of their game if he had the balls to correct their bad baserunning choices. That is simply a guy who is looking for the easy way out, and trying to keep his job. For you to not address this specific issue, and simply tell me about some other aspects where you think he has done well is not anything that I am interested in.
   13. BDC Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:16 PM (#4768221)
Roenicke was one of my favorite players when he was a Phillie. He was a low-average hitter without much power, true, but walked as much as he struck out or more, so had a high OBP, and was a good baserunner who could play CF or anywhere else a LH guy could throw. IOW he was a versatile player who had to think about the game, and realize that different guys have different skills, so his approach makes sense to me.
   14. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:17 PM (#4768222)
Roenicke may be a great manager,

didn't claim he was great. just that his teams have won more than they have lost. for me to claim that he has been unsuccessful would be denying the facts.
   15. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:19 PM (#4768226)
Yes, I'm "dumb", thank you very much.

i wrote your post was dumb. i don't know you personally to assess whether you are dumb.

and no, you are the one making grandiose claims about the manager's inability to manage the clubhouse. i shared details on how the manager has gotten players to accept various roles without pushback. he clearly has a plan

you may think it is a stupid plan. it may be.

but it is a PLAN.

and the players are following it. per the manager's directive
   16. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:21 PM (#4768228)
in 3 plus seasons the brewers manager has led to the team to 318 wins and 286 losses. folks can bicker as to whether the team has under or over achieved. but for one to claim he has been unsuccessful would be an argument only the arrogant likes of joe sheehan would make.
   17. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:23 PM (#4768229)
by the way, roenicke's style closely emulates whitey herzog's style. the hyper aggressive baserunning. the demand of hustle. the seemingly crazy defensive setups.

   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:33 PM (#4768235)
didn't claim he was great. just that his teams have won more than they have lost. for me to claim that he has been unsuccessful would be denying the facts.

He's clearly been successful. My only point is that he made a bad decision in this case.

It is perfectly consistent to tell your players "Be aggressive as you want when you have the greenlight, but I'm going to occasionally but on the stop sign, or the take sign, when there's no upside to aggressiveness."
   19. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:35 PM (#4768239)
snapper

i hear your last point. ron obviously disagrees

again, not claiming anyone is right or wrong.

   20. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:41 PM (#4768243)
The baserunning thing looks like a carryover from his years with the Angels. It was counterproductive then and it's likely counterproductive now.

The positives of letting a player be aggressive, Roenicke has argued and will continue to argue, no matter how loudly anyone screams about “bad baserunning,” far outweigh the negatives of an occasional “dumb out.”

The negatives of the dumb outs are easy to quantify, the positives not so much...

No one is going to convince Roenicke otherwise.

Of course.
   21. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:43 PM (#4768244)
it's likely counterproductive now.

i lean in that direction. certainly today between gomez getting picked off and braun lighting out for third with nobody out and getting caught stealing are exhibit a of that stance

then again, the players always given ron 100 percent be it game 1 or 162. all of them. i really have to hand it to him having seen umpteen players mail it in especially come late august and beyond.
   22. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:51 PM (#4768252)
it is also true from august 1st onward ron's teams are 105-70 thru today

i don't think that is chance
   23. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:52 PM (#4768253)
Sure, but the question is if there are ways to get good effort out of your players without giving away a ton of outs on the bases. Since I've seen many other good teams do it, I'm going with yes. Saying 'sure we keep make poor decisions out there, but that's what helps make us good!' seems kind of crazy.
   24. salviaman Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:57 PM (#4768255)
Not correcting bad baserunning may be part of his "plan"--and maybe his "plan" overall is good and succeeding overall--but in this specific aspect (which is all I'm trying to address), his plan is not good. I'm judging by his own words on the bad base running. You can try to make it part of some larger philosophy, you can claim a big carry-over effect on other aspects of MLB baseball which are aggressive-dependent. But none of that will in the end hold much water,. Either you good base run or you bad base run. Being afraid to correct bad baserunning out of the fear that you will lose good aggressiveness in other areas is a cop-out.
   25. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 07:57 PM (#4768256)
robert

ron has buy in from his star player (braun), his veteran players (ramirez/lohse) and young players who join the brewers typically hold their own be they position players or pitchers

look, i understand. this squirrel crossing the highway stuff DRIVES ME NUTS

but guys who join the team typically play better than expected. the guys consistently hustle. the team has won more than its lost.

ken macha did things our community respects and he lost the team completely and wasted two seasons of brauns/fielders career.

kind of stuck here
   26. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 10, 2014 at 08:00 PM (#4768259)
Being afraid to correct bad baserunning out of the fear that you will lose good aggressiveness in other areas is a cop-out.

so whitey herzog's teams ran into a kajillion outs a year because whitey wanted his guys hustling. was whitey afraid? i don't think so. he made a choice.

i know it drove cards fans nuts back in the day. i understand the sentiment

i just think it's worth considering however 'wrong' the math may be in the manager's approach

   27. Bug Selig Posted: August 10, 2014 at 08:06 PM (#4768263)
I never meant to suggest that he is a bad manager in all respects, In fact, I know nothing about Roenicke. I was just going by his actual statements on this particular issue of letting players make bad baserunning decisions on the false guise of being "aggressive", and his worrying that it might cause the players to be tentative in other aspects of their game if he had the balls to correct their bad baserunning choices. That is simply a guy who is looking for the easy way out, and trying to keep his job.


Odd that you "know nothing about him" but feel competent to make wild-ass, broad, and extremely damning judgments about him. And yes, it was a dumb post. On the other hand - Big whoop. I've posted dumb things, maybe even HW has posted dumb things:-) What we do here largely consists of talking through stuff like this by essentially peer-reviewing each other's ideas. If you expect to have people mindlessly agree with what you post and get red-assed and defensive when they don't, you are indeed in the wrong place.
   28. Bunny Vincennes Posted: August 10, 2014 at 09:13 PM (#4768285)
My wild ass guess from watching tons of Carlos Gomez is he's a ####### jackass and extremely high on his own talent. That can get you lots of places but it seems to get him thrown out on the bases a lot. Having talent and being stupid only gets you so far. He is perhaps the biggest jackass in baseball.
   29. salviaman Posted: August 11, 2014 at 05:59 AM (#4768341)
---"If you expect to have people mindlessly agree with what you post and get red-assed and defensive when they don't, you are indeed in the wrong place."

Well, neither of those things reflect what I'm about, but anyways......Bye Bye. Enjoy the middling quality of discussion on this site, and I'll enjoy not wasting my time responding to it. There's a reason why the big boy analysts like Tango, MGL, and a host of others don't come here.....
   30. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 11, 2014 at 07:44 AM (#4768345)
post 29

actually, i do think there is quite a worthy discussion about the tension between what the math says and what the actual people management component will deliver.

your approach was to terminate any discussion via summary judgement that the manager is a wimp and end of story

(as for the reference to 'big boy analysts', i applaud your subtle move to place yourself in such company. and as for including mgl in such a classification, it's not 2003.)

   31. Yellow Tango Posted: August 11, 2014 at 07:58 AM (#4768351)
Roenicke may be great at a lot of aspects of his job, but I can't imagine it's necessary to let Carlos Gomez run into dumb outs on the basepaths to avoid "frustrating" him. He's blaming poor tactical management during the game on this motivation factor that can't be quantified. As the manager, he needs to to find a way to keep the players motivated AND playing good baseball. His quotes in the article really do suggest, in this specific area, he's letting the inmates run the asylum.
   32. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 11, 2014 at 07:59 AM (#4768352)
Having talent and being stupid only gets you so far. He is perhaps the biggest jackass in baseball.

depending on whose evaluation metric you believe gomez is one of the ten best players in the game over the last 2 seasons.

i am at a loss as to how much better gomez would be if he changed his approach. it's likely his approach is what helped make him great.
   33. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 11, 2014 at 08:02 AM (#4768354)
yellow

i understand that perspective. have written it myself in the past.

it's also true that a guy like gomez was on his way out of the league playing for the likes of ron gardenshire and ken macha, two guys who have had success managing in baseball. (not that i think macha is the equivalent of gardenshire)

it's a puzzle.
   34. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 11, 2014 at 08:07 AM (#4768356)
by the way, while gomez is specifically mentioned ron has ALL the guys running on the team. the 2012 brewers led the league in both homers and stolen bases which i don't believe is very common. the brewers led the nl in stolen bases again last season and are 4th so far in 2014.

i keep losing track of where non steal attempt outs on the bases are tabulated but milwaukee has to have been the league leader throughout ron's tenure
   35. Yellow Tango Posted: August 11, 2014 at 08:12 AM (#4768359)
I'm definitely not thinking their whole approach with Gomez is wrong by any stretch. They've gotten incredible results out of him and it certainly seems like a big part of that is that they aren't trying to "fix" him. I just don't really think the first scenario in the article is an example of that. Giving him a "don't run" sign in an obvious "don't run" situation isn't asking him to be less aggressive, it's in-game management. I'm just skeptical when Roenicke's response to a bad tactical call is that he has to make bad tactical calls or Gomez won't be as good.
   36. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 11, 2014 at 08:21 AM (#4768362)
I'm just skeptical when Roenicke's response to a bad tactical call is that he has to make bad tactical calls or Gomez won't be as good.

understood.

   37. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 11, 2014 at 09:34 AM (#4768383)
I'm just skeptical when Roenicke's response to a bad tactical call is that he has to make bad tactical calls or Gomez won't be as good.

understood.


I also think there's a difference between making bad reads (misjudging whether you'll be safe or out), and basic situational awareness (knowing when you shouldn't even try).

I would agree that "punishing" a guy for the former could affect his aggressiveness. But putting up the stop sign when there's no reason to even try (e.g. stealing 3rd with 2 out as the tying run late in the game) shouldn't have that effect.
   38. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 11, 2014 at 09:39 AM (#4768392)
snapper

it is true that the VAST majority of gomez' baserunning gaffes come from his poor risk management assessment in real time.

gomez is always pushing for the extra base so throws will be cut off going home to nail gomez trying for whatever extra base may be in play.

gomez is very good base STEALING. he's poor (at times) in base ADVANCEMENT

hope that makes sense
   39. Hotel Coral Esix Snead (tmutchell) Posted: August 11, 2014 at 09:39 AM (#4768394)
Seems to me it ought to be possible to measure whether this sort of thing is effective or not. They can measure just about everything else these days, why not "aggressiveness"? We have base running metrics, and it can be seen that the Brewers are running into more than their share of outs this year.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2014-baserunning-batting.shtml

They're somewhere between 5th and 7th in MLB in Steals, Caught Stealing, Pick-Offs, and Outs on Base. (That last one - which I didn't even know was a thing until just now - measures outs when advancing on a play and stuff like that, not pickoffs and caught stealing and force-outs.)

Anyway, they're also first in the majors in Extra-Base Taken percentage (46%), though somehow they're 4th from last in the number of actual extra bases, which either means they are so fast that they're already on the extra base many times and therefore don't need to take an extra one, or that they're not as good at this as Roenicke thinks they are, or that I don't understand these metrics and this is all manager-ease BS anyway.
   40. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 11, 2014 at 09:43 AM (#4768395)
snapper

it is true that the VAST majority of gomez' baserunning gaffes come from his poor risk management assessment in real time.

gomez is always pushing for the extra base so throws will be cut off going home to nail gomez trying for whatever extra base may be in play.

gomez is very good base STEALING. he's poor (at times) in base ADVANCEMENT

hope that makes sense


Yeah, and I can see Roenicke point with regards to that sort of decision.

But, the clear cut, do not run situations (or do not swing on 3-0 when you'r 3 runs down, or the pitcher is really wild) should be handled by the manager. That's his job; to avoid letting his players make bad decisions.
   41. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 11, 2014 at 09:46 AM (#4768398)
post 39

thanks!

reminder, are pickoffs counted as caught stealings for a players stolen base/caught stealing totals on bbref? because gomez also gets picked off too often for eveyrone's tastes
   42. Hotel Coral Esix Snead (tmutchell) Posted: August 11, 2014 at 09:56 AM (#4768408)
I checked his individual numbers as well (you have to go into the "other stats" section of the team stats to get to the baserunning stuff) and he leads the team with 10 outs on base, in addition to his 67 CS and I 3 pickoffs (one of which was on a steal attempt). He's been thrown out at 3rd 4 times, twice as often as anyone else on the team, so i can see why he would seem frustrating to watch.
   43. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: August 11, 2014 at 09:59 AM (#4768410)
Yesterday's game was a pretty good demonstration of this debate. I had to watch my tongue in front of the little ones while listening to the LAD v MIL game.
   44. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 11, 2014 at 10:03 AM (#4768416)
mrams

you beat me to the punch. yes. gomez getting picked off. braun lighting out for 3rd with nobody out in what was at the time a 1 run game on a ball that got maybe 5 feet from the catcher.

and there were at least 3 other instances where the brewers running the bases terminated innings.
   45. Ron J2 Posted: August 11, 2014 at 10:52 AM (#4768452)
#23 Billy Martin saw aggressiveness as a virtue in itself (perhaps the best example is Harmon Killebrew's 16 stolen base attempts in 1969. Sure, he was always on base, but this was a year after a devastating injury, he was 32 and had lost almost all of his speed by then. I can't think of any manager who'd have had him running that much) and he was always successful in the short term.

Both Martin and Herzog seem to have assumed that the players would learn best by trial and error which chances were not worth taking.
   46. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: August 11, 2014 at 10:57 AM (#4768458)
(as for the reference to 'big boy analysts', i applaud your subtle move to place yourself in such company. and as for including mgl in such a classification, it's not 2003.)
Now this was just great. Well-done.
   47. The Polish Sausage Racer Posted: August 11, 2014 at 03:54 PM (#4768761)
Yes, Roenicke's insistence on hustle was evident in Rickie neglecting to show any interest in covering first base in Sunday's game. Why he ever sees the light of a lineup card is beyond me.

How much of all this is Roenicke and how much is Ed Seder's love for sending guys home regardless of whether they have any chance to score? His style sure fits the Roenicke philosophy to a T.

And don't get me started on the fetish for bunting in wholly inappropriate situations.
   48. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 11, 2014 at 04:03 PM (#4768775)
Rickie neglecting to show any interest in covering first base in Sunday's game.

rickie hustles in many other scenarios. but one of his traits is the brain malfunctions. and as for being in the lineup do you think scooter would have a chance against kershaw? scooter has done well but he is pretty sorry against lefties much less an uber star like kershaw.

   49. cardsfanboy Posted: August 11, 2014 at 05:01 PM (#4768839)
Not sure where the animosity on this thread came from, but as far as the original comment that started the "fight".
What I suspect this shows is that players are not being coached properly along the way to the major leagues. The more talented ones are encouraged to just do their thing, lest their talent be inhibited. In a word, that's simply bad coaching, or coaching out of fear. Then they make the bigs, and it's too late to change much of anything.

It's possible, but not probable. What you can get away with in the minors is a lot more than you can get away with in the majors, execution is much better, so it's a learning curve to figure out what you can get away with. Some teams might teach the philosophy of not pushing anything to the limit and are willing to give up 50 or so extra bases a year to save that 10 or so outs they might lose on the base paths with a passive approach, other teams are fine with gaining 70 bases even at the cost of 20 outs, if it's part of the learning process. This article says that Roenicke is the latter(and as Harvey and others pointed out, several hof managers also were the latter type) Roenicke justifies his reasons for this, because he doesn't want to coach timidity into his players in other aspects of the game. I think that is perfectly justified rationalization. It makes no sense to assume that attitude on the base paths is a completely separate mind set from attitude in the field or at the plate. That is counter intuitive to anybody who has ever done anything in their life.

As far as inhibiting talent, that is really the best way to do that, let them learn by doing and making mistakes. A talented player reaches the majors much quicker than a less talented player so he hasn't made all the mistakes that he is going to. Nobody, and I repeat. Nobody is saying you don't teach them and explain their mistakes to them, but it's best for development to fail and learn than to never have tried.


The Cubs with Theo and Jed make sure to mention how their ace hitter prospects must show that they are competent in other aspects, such as reliable fielding, and good judgement all around. The promotion of Baez seems to go against this philosophy. But maybe Bill James had it right in an old Abstract when he wrote that as soon as you are better than the guy you are replacing, raw or not, you will get the job. It's not an easy thing to balance,,


I would argue that over the past 3 years Roenicke and the Brewershas gotten more out of his players than the Cubs have gotten out of their players. Not sure that is the organization I would be pointing to as "proper coaching" until they actually succeed in getting their system to work. (Note:I'm not trying to bad mouth the Cubs, as they are doing a system overhaul and have a lot of moving parts right now, so it's not an apple, to apple comparison.)

Having said that, Roenicke's philosophy, just like Whitey Herzog's, requires the right type of players to fully take advantage of it. It's arguable that a great hitter like Votto might be stunted in that organization.(just a hypothetical) I absolutely think that if Roenicke had Taveras, there is a good chance he would be leading the league as the most likely rookie of the year candidate.
The inmates are truly running the asylum there.


Not seeing that at all.

Roenicke may be great at a lot of aspects of his job, but I can't imagine it's necessary to let Carlos Gomez run into dumb outs on the basepaths to avoid "frustrating" him. He's blaming poor tactical management during the game on this motivation factor that can't be quantified. As the manager, he needs to to find a way to keep the players motivated AND playing good baseball. His quotes in the article really do suggest, in this specific area, he's letting the inmates run the asylum.


That isn't what he is saying though, he is trying to let them learn what are their limits. Heck the fact that in this article he specifically calls out Gomez is an attempt by him to explain his expectations, while still leaving Gomez the choice. Roenicke isn't saying run into dumb outs, he isn't saying he isn't teaching his players, he is just saying he is leaving the choice of his better players up to them, and hopes that through experience they will learn their limits, while still maintaining their aggressiveness.

Mike Matheny who is basically on the other side of the table in style, has actually stated to the press he wants his players to be more aggressive, he wants them to bunt against the shift etc...but just like Roenicke here, he isn't going to order them to do something if they aren't comfortable, it needs to be something that the player sees as an available option and for them to pick their opportunities and not feel as if a mistake will get you benched for a week.
   50. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 11, 2014 at 05:29 PM (#4768863)
cfb

i don't think wily peralta would be performing like he is in 2014 if kyle lohse wasn't on the team. rick kranitz should be giving part of his salary to loshe every week. by everything coming out of the pitcher staff's mouths kyle is the de facto pitching coach.

and it makes sense. only bartolo colon has gotten more out of a 90 mph fastball and guts than loshe
   51. Bug Selig Posted: August 12, 2014 at 01:44 PM (#4769493)
Well, neither of those things reflect what I'm about, but anyways......Bye Bye. Enjoy the middling quality of discussion on this site, and I'll enjoy not wasting my time responding to it. There's a reason why the big boy analysts like Tango, MGL, and a host of others don't come here.....


At the risk of feeding the troll:

Generally, one should be capable of raising the level of something before denigrating that level - just a little rule of thumb to keep in mind. You came to the table with "he's a wimp" and "he's scared" and calling the players involved "inmates". Your brand of haughty assertion-as-fact isn't even good conversation, much less "big boy" analysis, or even half-ass analysis. I hope you keep your promise.

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