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Monday, August 01, 2011

Rosenberg: Bad behavior tarnishes Tigers-Angels game

Freep Printable Behavior Charts.com has lots of great ideas!

Alas, Angels pitcher Jered Weaver did not. Weaver responded by trying to expand Ordoñez’s vocabulary.

Ordoñez said, “If you get mad because somebody hits a home run against you ... you gotta take it like a man.”

Yes, you do. The Tigers had the moral high ground, and Carlos Guillen promptly pulled them off it. Guillen took Weaver deep, then stood admiring his home run, and stared at Weaver and pointed toward the fence. He did everything but give Weaver the finger. I’ve seen still-life paintings that moved faster than Guillen. “We’re all teammates,” Guillen said afterward. “Not because Magglio is from Venezuela (like Guillen). Somebody put down my teammate.”

So what? Call him an idiot after the game. Don’t embarrass yourself like that.

“I’ve never showed anybody up in this game,” Weaver said. “I respected those guys. I thought they respected me. ... I just felt I got disrespected.”

Weaver responded by respectfully throwing a pitch over Alex Avila’s head. (“I had a feeling he was gonna throw one at me,” Avila said. “I was just hoping it wasn’t near my head.”) Weaver was ejected, of course, and could be suspended.

Meanwhile, Justin Verlander was still trying to throw a no-hitter.

Repoz Posted: August 01, 2011 at 11:00 AM | 124 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: angels, game recaps, tigers

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   1. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: August 01, 2011 at 11:37 AM (#3890119)
Attention, please: Anyone who makes millions of dollars playing a kid's game and proceeds to throw a hard sphere at someone else's head at 90+ mph because he felt "disrespected" is an immature idiot who will be immediately drawn and quartered.

That is all.
   2. joker24 Posted: August 01, 2011 at 12:31 PM (#3890126)
Yeah you throw at someone's head, that's 15 games minimum. That's career, life changing danger #######.

"Nothing in sports makes me shake my head like pitchers making throwing errors."

He doesn't understand how it can be somewhat difficult to warm up throwing 60'6" off of a mound, be in the game throwing 60'6" off a mound 100+ times, then make a 75 foot throw on flat ground while in a hurry?
   3. AJMcCringleberry Posted: August 01, 2011 at 12:33 PM (#3890129)
Weaver and Verlander are whiny #######.
   4. Greg K Posted: August 01, 2011 at 12:55 PM (#3890134)
Man, Jeff Weaver must have made quite an impression in Detroit. The comments section is filled with anger towards Weavers of all shapes and sizes.
   5. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:02 PM (#3890136)
The worst of all of this brouhaha was Verlander getting pissy because dude laid down a bunt on him. That was weak sauce. The other? Meh. Baseball is like that. Guillen is the trigger that push the #### down the hill.
   6. MikeinMI Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:04 PM (#3890139)
Where was Verlander whiny?

Also Scioscia can never ever complain about unwritten rules after bunting in the 8th. I don't know that he ever has complained about it but it he does, someone should remind him of this.

Guillen must have been hacked off about this; I've never seen him to anything like this. He shouldn't have done it. The league should fine him for that but they should suspend Weaver.

I wonder what pitch Mathis called for when Weaver sailed it over Avila's head? Did Weaver even see the sign or was his blood boiling so much that he nodded before Mathis put any fingers down.
   7. AJMcCringleberry Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:07 PM (#3890140)
Where was Verlander whiny?

######## about the Aybar bunt and saying he'd hit him.
   8. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:08 PM (#3890141)
First acknowledging that Weaver is going to deserve whatever he gets in terms of fine/suspension, but let's not ignore two things:

1) Weaver pretty clearly threw so far over Avila's head that he had no intention of actually hitting him. (Again, he shouldn't have done it, deserves whatever punishment he gets, etc.)

2) Carlos Guillen acted like a gigantic asshat.
   9. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:11 PM (#3890143)
Guillen acting like a jerk is in no way equivalent to Weaver throwing anywhere near someone's head intentionally. Sticks and stones and all that.
   10. The Original SJ Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:11 PM (#3890145)
It was a little weird that Guillen can act like a complete #######, dancing up the first baseline like a 7th grader, and then the umpire warns both teams.

Is that all it takes?
   11. MikeinMI Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:12 PM (#3890146)
######## about the Aybar bunt and saying he'd hit him.


I did not see that. If so, yeah, he's whining. It was a bit of a punk move by the Angels but Verlander has to be ready for it. Aybar bunts for hits.

1) Weaver pretty clearly threw so far over Avila's head that he had no intention of actually hitting him. (Again, he shouldn't have done it, deserves whatever punishment he gets, etc.)

I agree that he didn't want to hit him but you can't mess around up there. If Weaver had wanted to dot him, he would have.

2) Carlos Guillen acted like a gigantic asshat.

I want to dispute this but I can't. He was excessive and should hear from MLB about a sizable donation he'll be making.
   12. The Original SJ Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:13 PM (#3890147)
It was only "so far" over his head because Avila ducked.
   13. MikeinMI Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:14 PM (#3890148)
Is that all it takes?


Weaver was jawing at him quite a lot too. I thought the ump was correct in warning both teams.
   14. AJMcCringleberry Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:14 PM (#3890149)
Guillen was awesome. And if it pisses off Weaver everyone who hits a homer off him should do it.
   15. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:20 PM (#3890151)
The bunt is crap. I realize I'm in a minority with that opinion but there is an etiquette involved that says that is not an acceptable play. I know the reasons why it should be done and I just don't buy it, play it straight up and if you get no hit, you get no hit.
   16. AJMcCringleberry Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:22 PM (#3890153)
The bunt is crap. I realize I'm in a minority with that opinion but there is an etiquette involved that says that is not an acceptable play.

The etiquette is bullshit. Aybar has a job to do, which is to get on base. He got on and scored which gave the Angels a better chance to tie the game later.
   17. joker24 Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:25 PM (#3890155)
If Weaver had wanted to dot him, he would have.


So clearly Weaver has the pinpoint control to throw a fastball intentionally middle-middle and have Carlos Guillen blast it into the seats?
   18. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:29 PM (#3890158)
It was a little weird that Guillen can act like a complete #######, dancing up the first baseline like a 7th grader, and then the umpire warns both teams.

Is that all it takes?


Weaver was hot from Magglio taking too long to run after his home run, though Maggs was really just watching to see if the ball went fair or foul. Cameras caught him barking at Maggs and Cabrera as well after that home run. I'd imagine there was more that we didn't see on TV.

As a Tiger partisan, I'll say I really don't feel all that bad that Guillen escalated it. I know this sounds childish, but Weaver started it and if he wants to bark at senior citizens like Magglio then he can't throw a fit and throw at someone's head when someone barks back.

Also, as a Tiger partisan, I still think Verlander shouldn't be whining after the bunt. It was a 3 run game and it was the Angels. Bunting is what they do. Deal with it.
   19. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:33 PM (#3890159)
The bunt is crap. I realize I'm in a minority with that opinion but there is an etiquette involved that says that is not an acceptable play.


Even if you do value the etiquette of the game (and for the record, I do value those things more than most here) such niceties had already been thrown overboard in this game. By Carlos Guillen.

1. Mags hits a HR, watches it to make sure it goes fair and not foul. (Nothing untoward here.)
2. Weaver gets all snippy about Mags watching the ball (Jered, don't give up taters and you won't have this problem.)
3. Guillen hits a HR and dances up the line staring at Weaver like a complete asshat.

This is where the game went completely sideways.

4. Weaver throws over Avila's head. (The people here who always whinge about this are whinging again, but seriously, that's part of the game. Put on some big boy pants you pusses.)
5. Aybar attempts the bunt in the 8th.

If Guillen doesn't push the game off the rails with his cockatoo routine earlier, I suspect the Angels would be more likely to abide by the "unwritten rules" of a no-hitter. But Guillen has already derailed basic baseball etiquette with his shenanigans earlier. Aybar is completely in the clear to bunt, as well as spike the pitcher's foot if he were got get over that way and try to cover the bag.

Epilogue: Carlos Guillen should get drilled, hard, and not in the fat of the thigh, next time he steps in against Anaheim.
   20. villageidiom Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:35 PM (#3890161)
The bunt is crap. I realize I'm in a minority with that opinion but there is an etiquette involved that says that is not an acceptable play. I know the reasons why it should be done and I just don't buy it, play it straight up and if you get no hit, you get no hit.
If bunting for base hits is part of a player's game, is he supposed to give that up because the opponent has a no-hitter going? If a team puts on the shift, should the hitter try to hit into it?
   21. Every Inge Counts Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:41 PM (#3890165)
So if a player parades around the field, the proper response is to inflict violence upon the opposing pitcher, the next batter, and offending batter. Got it.
   22. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:42 PM (#3890167)
If bunting for base hits is part of a player's game, is he supposed to give that up because the opponent has a no-hitter going?


Yes.

Hey, I understand why people disagree with me, it's how I feel. I will say that at the same time even if everyone knows Aybar shouldn't bunt the Tigers shouldn't take advantage of the situation by playing the corners back. They shouldn't be gaming the system either.

I didn't see the game so I have no opinion on the Guillen stuff. It sounds to me like Weaver initiated it with his actions toward Magglio but that's just based on reading the thread.
   23. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:44 PM (#3890170)
So if a player parades around the field, the proper response is to inflict violence upon the opposing pitcher, the next batter, and offending batter. Got it.


Do you wear skirts all the time, or just when crying about baseball?

No "violence" was inflicted upon the opposing pitcher. Weaver shouldn't have thrown at Avila. Guillen deserves to be drilled. The bunt by Aybar was well within bounds due to Guillen's blowing up the rules of etiquette previously. Sometimes in baseball the ball gets thrown at the batter, and men play the game like men.

That is all.
   24. AROM Posted: August 01, 2011 at 01:53 PM (#3890176)
The Tigers were not playing back, looked like the 3B was playing on the edge of the grass. If the score was 7-0, then I can see baseball etiquette saying not to bunt in that situation.

In a 3-0 game though, I don't give a crap about Verlander's no-hitter. Angels were trying to win a game here. Aybar is one of the better bunters in the league. Nobody would say a thing about it if the Angels were down 3-0 but had managed a single in the second inning. Since it led to 2 runs scored by two speedy runners who didn't hit the ball out of the infield, it sure looks like that bunt gave the Angels their best chance to pull the game out.
   25. Shredder Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:00 PM (#3890184)
1) Weaver pretty clearly threw so far over Avila's head that he had no intention of actually hitting him. (Again, he shouldn't have done it, deserves whatever punishment he gets, etc.)
Seriously. All the pearl clutch about "throwing at his head" is freaking ridiculous. Personally, I think Weaver probably should have drilled him in the back, or thrown behind him, but what's done is done. I think it's clear he wanted to send a message without inflicting any pain on Avila, who didn't do anything wrong.

Verlander's lucky he finished the inning. He's lucky Aybar didn't bury him into home plate. If you want to stand there in front of the plate like a catcher with a runner bearing down on you, you better be ready to get hit like a catcher.

If I were Takahashi, I would have taken about a half hour to warm up, then probably thrown behind Avila so that I could get kicked out and give the next guy a half hour to warm up. Make Verlander sit there and think about the no-hitter for a long, long time before taking the mound again.

As for the bunt, quite frankly they should have been doing this from the first inning on. The Tigers choked away a whole World Series against a team that was barely better than .500 because their pitchers apparently can't make routine throws to other infielders.
   26. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:06 PM (#3890188)
I didn't see the game so I have no opinion on the Guillen stuff. It sounds to me like Weaver initiated it with his actions toward Magglio but that's just based on reading the thread.


From the replays, Weaver's barking was just that. Barking. Nothing more or less than happens all the time in baseball. Guillen is the bad guy in this game.
   27. BDC Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:11 PM (#3890190)
Re: the bunt: what AROM said. The bunt led to a 3-0 game narrowing to 3-2; that's good baseball. "Gaming the system" is what you do when you're playing a game :)
   28. pthomas Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:12 PM (#3890191)
The Angels almost won this game. Because of Aybar's bunt.
   29. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:17 PM (#3890193)
"That's baseball," Leyland said of the bunt. "You're supposed to play the game right. They play the game right. I have no problem with that whatsoever."
   30. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:18 PM (#3890196)
another quote from Leyland
   31. Every Inge Counts Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:19 PM (#3890197)
Do you wear skirts all the time, or just when crying about baseball?


I loaned mine to Weaver yesterday.

Of course being pissed off because someone celebrated a home run is beyond me as well.
   32. OCF Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:23 PM (#3890199)
The Angels almost won this game. Because of Aybar's bunt.

The Angels almost won the game because Verlander and his teammates didn't play major-league quality defense. Aybar was on third with one out. On a grounder to 3B, he broke for home and got caught in a rundown. At a major league skill level, shouldn't a runner caught in a rundown be out, always? But Aybar scored, brushing past Verlander as Verlander failed to catch the last throw. Apparently Aybar stuck an elbow into Verlander on the way past, and that's what Verlander was yelling about afterwards. I can see that particular contact from Aybar's point of view simply being trying to escape and score.
   33. Shredder Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:23 PM (#3890200)
"That's baseball," Leyland said of the bunt. "You're supposed to play the game right. They play the game right. I have no problem with that whatsoever."
Credit to Verlander, too. I think he was upset during the game, but in the interview they played on ESPN, he said all the right things.
   34. Mash Wilson Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:27 PM (#3890204)
Showing up a pitcher after hitting a bomb and bunting for a base hit are completely different things. It's ridiculous to compare them. One is showboating. The other is an honest effort to reach base. What, you think Erick Aybar went up there in the eighth inning, when his team hasn't had a single damned hit all night, thinking "man, I don't like this guy, I think I'll bunt just to piss him off"? Call me a sucker, but I think he was thinking "these guys kind of suck at defense and they're playing back, if I drop a bunt right here I can beat it out and get something started."

I really want to ##### slap everyone that thinks bunting to break up a no-hitter is anything other than an attempt to reach base, which is your job.
   35. ??'s Biggest Fan! Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:35 PM (#3890209)
Hmmm... is the bunt no longer an option as early as the second inning if the side is set down in order after the first? And are the hitters not suppose to work a walk if the same pitcher is pitching a perfect game?
   36. JL Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:35 PM (#3890210)
Credit to Verlander, too. I think he was upset during the game, but in the interview they played on ESPN, he said all the right things.

Agreed. I expect he was as mad about his poor throw as he was about Aybar's bunt, and took out his frustration by yelling at Aybar after he scored. Once he had time to reflect a bit, he probably realized what he was really mad about. He would not be the first to initially direct his ire at the wrong party.

I tend to give people a fair amount of slack for outbursts on the field when they at least try to correct them or acknowledge them later (like in the post game conference).
   37. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:38 PM (#3890213)
Guillen acting like a jerk is in no way equivalent to Weaver throwing anywhere near someone's head intentionally. Sticks and stones and all that.
And you'll note that in no way did I imply they were. Simply noted that Guillen acted like an ass.

I didn't see the game so I have no opinion on the Guillen stuff. It sounds to me like Weaver initiated it with his actions toward Magglio but that's just based on reading the thread.
It's pretty egregious as these things go.
   38. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:43 PM (#3890219)
Honestly, did Guillen not see this coming?
   39. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:44 PM (#3890220)
Wow, that was bush league from Guillen. Weaver was definitely wrong throwing at Avila's head but Guillen was wrong in his actions too.
   40. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:44 PM (#3890221)
Was I the only one watching who thought Verlander may have sandbagged the throw to first on the bunt so he could preserve the no-no? Even a decent throw gets Aybar there, since he was still several steps away from first when the ball sailed by Cabrera.

Anyway, Weaver was in the wrong, but only for where he threw the ball, not that he did. Guillen deserves to get hit, but at that juncture in the game, it was looking like he wouldn't bat again (and he didn't). So unfortunately, Avila must stand in the line of fire for Guillen's galling arrogance.
   41. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:49 PM (#3890223)
@40, the thought occurred to me at the time too on Verlander's throw, exacerbated by one camera angle seeming to show him looking anxiously toward the scoreboard in the aftermath.

That said, Tigers pitchers really don't seem to need any excuse for butchering throws beyond the fact that they are Tigers pitchers.

Wow, that was bush league from Guillen.
Yeah, I'm trying to think of a worse instance and coming up blank.
   42. Shredder Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:51 PM (#3890224)
Guillen deserves to get hit, but at that juncture in the game, it was looking like he wouldn't bat again (and he didn't). So unfortunately, Avila must stand in the line of fire for Guillen's galling arrogance.
Which is probably why he didn't try to hit Avila.
   43. Squash Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:53 PM (#3890226)
I was watching the game and I "hate" the Angels, but this one was all Tigers. Guillen specifically. Given the flow of the game and how the whole thing was feeling at that point, what he did took the game's bad-vibe intensity from 2 to 10. You knew instantly there was going to be blood after that. Guillen might as well have just walked back to the dugout and thrown a ball at Avila's head himself.

Apparently Aybar stuck an elbow into Verlander on the way past, and that's what Verlander was yelling about afterwards. I can see that particular contact from Aybar's point of view simply being trying to escape and score.

I was wondering if there was some contact there. If not and Verlander was complaining about the bunt, then he is a very dumb man to think the Angels were going to "respect" his no-hitter after everything that happened.
   44. Dave Spiwak Posted: August 01, 2011 at 02:55 PM (#3890229)
Credit to Verlander, too. I think he was upset during the game, but in the interview they played on ESPN, he said all the right things.


In the interview I saw, Verlander called Aybar's play "Bush league" and said these things have a way of "working themselves out" -- which is usually un-subtle code for retribution of some indeterminate type. In other words, a bench-clearing shoving match and icy-glare standoff sometime in the spring or early summer of 2012.
   45. Lassus Posted: August 01, 2011 at 03:02 PM (#3890233)
Weaver's barking was just that. Barking. Nothing more or less than happens all the time in baseball.

The barking (and beanball wars) you wish were happening during every game in baseball isn't actually happening in our reality. Most of the adults are actually acting like adults, not children.
   46. Steve Sparks Flying Everywhere Posted: August 01, 2011 at 03:04 PM (#3890238)
I'm more surprised a fight didn't break out immediately when Guillen turned his chest toward Weaver when running up the first base line. What happens in a situation where a pitcher and batter get ejected after the batter hits the home run but before he circles the bases? The run doesn't count?
   47. Greg K Posted: August 01, 2011 at 03:04 PM (#3890239)
That's what I'm curious about. Does Guillen buy Avila a drink after the game?

Talk about leaving a teammate twisting in the wind.
   48. Greg K Posted: August 01, 2011 at 03:11 PM (#3890244)
Which is probably why he didn't try to hit Avila.

I don't know if I'd be able to say that with much confidence. I mean, how often is a pitcher aiming at a guy's head? I don't think their aim would be as good as when they are trying to throw a strike, and who's perfect then either?

Not to mention Weaver at this point probably isn't at his calmest.

Added to that is that with degree of accuracy we're talking about here is aiming two inches overa guy's head any less dangerous than aiming for his head?

Ignoring all that Weaver essentially just made the decision to eject himself from the game. Seems a bit selfish.

And finally, I've always liked Carlos Guillen, but that was not a moment to be proud of on his part.
   49. Shredder Posted: August 01, 2011 at 03:13 PM (#3890248)
In the interview I saw, Verlander called Aybar's play "Bush league" and said these things have a way of "working themselves out" -- which is usually un-subtle code for retribution of some indeterminate type.
That's not the way I took it. I thought the "working itself out" line was basically about how they'd still won the game. And the bush league comment didn't bother me. It's clear he was bummed about losing the no-hitter. I think he could have said things that were a lot worse given the circumstances.
I don't know if I'd be able to say that with much confidence. I mean, how often is a pitcher aiming at a guy's head? I don't think their aim would be as good as when they are trying to throw a strike, and who's perfect then either?
If Avila doesn't duck, it still goes over his head by a foot. It wasn't really that close. I'm pretty sure if he'd really wanted to hit him, he could have hit him. There's a lot of body to aim at if you're trying to hit someone.

I guess what I'm saying is that if I were in that position, and I really wanted to hit someone in the head (not that I'd ever want to do that), my options would be to either aim for the neck, and if I'm off in either direction, I'm still going to hit him somehwere, or aim for the temple knowing that I'm going to miss if I throw too high. The second option doesn't make much sense. Which is why I think Weaver was intentionally trying to miss Avila while still sending a message. If he'd wanted to hit him, he would have.
   50. Ron J Posted: August 01, 2011 at 03:14 PM (#3890250)
#11 Punk move? It's trying to win the game. Or to be more precise, get the tying run to the plate. It was still a close game.

EDIT: And #15 etiquette be damned. (Potentially) breaking up the no-hitter is a side consequence of getting a baserunner in a close game that you're losing.
   51. hokieneer Posted: August 01, 2011 at 03:16 PM (#3890251)
If Guillen doesn't push the game off the rails with his cockatoo routine earlier, I suspect the Angels would be more likely to abide by the "unwritten rules" of a no-hitter.

This is a huge leap even for you. It's already been established that Aybar is a terrific bunter and the game was still close. It's clear to most that he was bunting to try and get on base to win the game, not some vendetta against Verlander's no-hitter because Guillen's an #######.
   52. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 01, 2011 at 03:19 PM (#3890252)
Which is probably why he didn't try to hit Avila.


Exactly. Weaver threw over the batter's head. He didn't even hit him.

The barking (and beanball wars) you wish were happening during every game in baseball isn't actually happening in our reality. Most of the adults are actually acting like adults, not children.


I know you guys like to think baseball is like a game of Go or something, but oddly enough the players who actually play the game seem to think the same way I do about this.

I guarantee you that the next time Weaver see Guillen he gets a lot worse than a breeze over Alex Avila's head. Or at least he should.
   53. Dave Spiwak Posted: August 01, 2011 at 03:21 PM (#3890256)
If not and Verlander was complaining about the bunt, then he is a very dumb man to think the Angels were going to "respect" his no-hitter after everything that happened.


Unwritten Rules of the Game: Disrespecting the Unwritten Rules Axiom

If one team disrespects the unwritten rules during the course of a game*, the opposing team is entitled to one concilliatory opportunity to disrespect the unwritten rules of the game during the course of that same game**. This concilliatory opportunity, being retribution for an earlier violation, shall not in itself be considered a violation of the unwritten rules, but rather a concession for the original violation and as such cannot itself be subject, under the Vengeance Doctrine of the Unwritten Rules of the Game, to retribution or concessions of any kind, and thus the team who committed the original violation of the unwritten rules shall not seek, nor shall they be entitled to, any further retribution or concessions during the course of the game, and this team proceeds at its own risk in committing future violations of the unwritten rules.

Please make no attempt to write down these unwritten rules. They are self-evident.

*Guillen's rooster strut
**attempting a bunt in the late innings of a no-hit bid
   54. Shredder Posted: August 01, 2011 at 03:27 PM (#3890258)
This is a huge leap even for you. It's already been established that Aybar is a terrific bunter and the game was still close. It's clear to most that he was bunting to try and get on base to win the game, not some vendetta against Verlander's no-hitter because Guillen's an #######.
When I was watching the game, my first thought was that the bunt was a direct response to the events of the prior half-inning. Looking back on it now, I'm not so sure that Aybar wouldn't have bunted anyway. But I think there's something to the idea that Aybar just said "screw this guy and his no-hitter, I'm gonna bunt". It was a pretty emotional half hour or so. I don't think (rarely seen BTFer) buddha and I are going to talk to each for a few weeks. There were some pretty heated texts that went back and forth.
   55. Dave Spiwak Posted: August 01, 2011 at 03:37 PM (#3890265)
This is a good thread to post this: best non-Pedro Cerrano HR strut of all time.

What happens in a situation where a pitcher and batter get ejected after the batter hits the home run but before he circles the bases? The run doesn't count?


The scenario you describe may have played out in the video above, were it not for the heroic efforts of the umpire to "escort" the trotting slugger around the bases. Something similar nearly happens in the video below, because the guy who hit the homerun starts fighting with the opposing infielders around the three-quarter post. At least one cooler head prevails, though, and his catcher walks him safely home while the rest of his teammates slug it out on his behalf.

Minor League Brawl: Bakersfield v. Visalia
   56. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: August 01, 2011 at 03:50 PM (#3890277)
I thought Guillen's dance to first base was hilarious. If Weaver was crying about Ordonez, then he deserved to get it slapped back in his face, and Guillen did it with style.

Sam H is the biggest whiner about baseball on this site, and now you're telling other people to take off their skirts? What a ####### joke. Your fake tough guy act and bullshit about "etiquette" is beyond tired, since you've clearly proven you hold the Braves to one standard and everyone else to another. Go stab yourself in the neck.
   57. Lassus Posted: August 01, 2011 at 03:55 PM (#3890281)
I know you guys like to think baseball is like a game of Go or something, but oddly enough the players who actually play the game seem to think the same way I do about this.

Yes, which is why you see pitchers barking every single game at hitters looking at a ball going fair or foul, or maybe not busting it on a a fly ball or whatever, the way Weaver did.

I know it's hard to parse the fantastical hyperbole from what you actually think due to the inbreeding/farm animal DNA polka down there, but the things you think are happening in a majority of games, or even often, just aren't happening.
   58. Spivey Posted: August 01, 2011 at 03:55 PM (#3890282)
I hate the Angels. But Carlos Guillen's jackass behavior was so over the top that I think every pitcher in baseball would have done something similar. It may not be right to throw at a hitter, but Guillen had to know that was going to lead to Weaver throwing at someone on Detroit, at some point. It was a move Vincente Padilla would be proud of.

I also don't think Weaver was trying to hit Avila, though it's impossible to say - it was still a close game and I don't imagine he wanted to put a baserunner on.
   59. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 01, 2011 at 04:04 PM (#3890288)
I thought Guillen's dance to first base was hilarious. If Weaver was crying about Ordonez, then he deserved to get it slapped back in his face, and Guillen did it with style.


You don't deserve to watch baseball. I hope you never dilute the gene pool with spawn.
   60. beefshower Posted: August 01, 2011 at 04:16 PM (#3890299)
I was fortunate enough to be at the game yesterday about ten rows behind the angels dugout and I have to say that it was the greatest regular season game I have ever been to. I don't know if it came across on tv but the intensity level was about a 10 the whole game. I have never seen a pitcher as angry as Weaver was yesterday. It all started with the Magglio home run which looked like it was going to hook foul from my vantage point and I was surprised to see it wrap around the pole fair. I don't know why Weaver took such excpetion with Magglio watching to see if it was fair or foul and I don't think Magglio has any history of showboating or ass hattery (sp?) to make an opposing pitcher sensitive to his actions, but Jesus Christ was Weaver hot about it. I heard him yell out mother ###### at least twice after getting Tigers out including once at Magglio when he popped out in the sixth and they had words at the mound. He also yelled something to Cabrera about ####### running the bases. Not to mention all the glares he was giving the crowd and the Tigers after every inning. He seemed to be looking for a fight and he almost got one. I really am surprised something didn't happen earlier in the game and I think if both pitchers weren't locked in to such a tight battle things would have blown up.

I have a legitimate question. If the opposing teams pitcher is acting like a Grade A premium ####### the whole game and cursing at your team and throwing a hissy fit over a perceived show of disrepect, what is the other team supposed to do and how much do you take before you react. I think Guillen was over the line by a mile or two but I think he really had to relish that home run given Weaver's behavior for most of the game.

Finally total ##### move by Weaver buzzing the tower on Avila. Even if it wasn't meant to hit him when you are enraged like Weaver was you probably don't have the greatest control so don't even get within a foot of the head. If you want a fight drill the guy and wait for him on the mound, don't knock him to the ground and run to the dugout before the guy can even get up and then scream a bunch of trash from the top step while doing the whole "hold me back, hold me back" routine.
   61. Every Inge Counts Posted: August 01, 2011 at 04:41 PM (#3890326)
Context is everything. Weaver was acting an ass, he earned getting shown up.
   62. SoSH U at work Posted: August 01, 2011 at 04:51 PM (#3890337)
Context is everything. Weaver was acting an ass, he earned getting shown up.


That's my take. Guillen's act seemed to be saying, "You want to ##### and screa about something, here's something worth it."

Jered has more a bit more Jeff in him than I realized.
   63. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 01, 2011 at 04:51 PM (#3890338)
Weaver and Verlander deserve the flak they're getting. The Cy Young Award voters should penalize both of them.
   64. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 01, 2011 at 04:51 PM (#3890339)
I know it's hard to parse the fantastical hyperbole from what you actually think due to the inbreeding/farm animal DNA polka down there, but the things you think are happening in a majority of games, or even often, just aren't happening.


Yet every year there is inevitably two or three threads where you lot whinge about how "dangerous" a pitch inside and up is, while the last known instance of anyone being seriously injured by that play recedes a century into history. But hey, it's sort of testosteroney and stuff. Surely it's bad.
   65. SoSH U at work Posted: August 01, 2011 at 05:08 PM (#3890352)
Yet every year there is inevitably two or three threads where you lot whinge about how "dangerous" a pitch inside and up is, while the last known instance of anyone being seriously injured by that play recedes a century into history.


Dickie Thon and the late Tony Conigliaro, among others, might like to have a word with you about your definition of "seriously."
   66. Eddo Posted: August 01, 2011 at 05:12 PM (#3890356)
Yet every year there is inevitably two or three threads where you lot whinge about how "dangerous" a pitch inside and up is, while the last known instance of anyone being seriously injured by that play recedes a century into history. But hey, it's sort of testosteroney and stuff. Surely it's bad.

And when was the last recorded injury inflicted by someone showing up a pitcher with a home run trot? Why is that deserving of an action that has any chance of causing a serious injury?
   67. Poster Nutbag Posted: August 01, 2011 at 05:21 PM (#3890362)
Weaver needs to learn to control his emotions better. You simply cannot get yourself ejected to make a statement or prove a point. Especially in a close game that you're trying to win. Especially if you are on of your teams best players. You are also risking suspension.

If it's ok to bunt for a single to get a hit to try and tie the game (which I totally agree with), then why aren't more Angels fans pissed at Weaver for getting himself tossed? Shouldn't he play the role of leader, go out there and get some outs instead of acting like a high-schooler and throwing at/around/near/in the vicinity of another player's head and getting yourself ejected. This is a close game, between two potential playoff teams. Forgive the phrase, but these games count! Think of your team, not yourself. If I were an Angels fan, I'd be awfully upset at the Tigers, but equally (if not moreso) at my team's best pitcher for selfishly behaving in manner which gets him ejected and possibly suspended. I'd rather see him go out and use that energy to get hitters out, not get himself thrown out.
   68. Justin T is going to crush some tacos Thursday Posted: August 01, 2011 at 05:25 PM (#3890366)
Weaver did end up at 111 pitches.
   69. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 01, 2011 at 05:32 PM (#3890374)
Dickie Thon and the late Tony Conigliaro, among others, might like to have a word with you about your definition of "seriously."


Only Thon's injuries from the HBP ended his career. That's sad, and by the reports I've just skimmed it looks like it was actually a beaning and not something that got away inside. That's not what you're looking for there, but much like a slide into home can sometimes lead to Robin Ventura doing terrible things to his foot that one year in spring training, sometimes this part of the game goes sideways too. That doesn't make it any less part of the game.

Notably, Conigliaro did not wear the batting helmet with the pitcher-side flap, which is mandatory equipment today. It would have saved him the rehab, probably.
   70. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: August 01, 2011 at 05:35 PM (#3890375)
If you want a fight drill the guy and wait for him on the mound, don't knock him to the ground and run to the dugout before the guy can even get up and then scream a bunch of trash from the top step while doing the whole "hold me back, hold me back" routine.


Avila didn't go to the ground (nor did he make a single threatening move towards Weaver). It didn't really look like Weaver wanted to fight, he just looked enraged.
   71. Lassus Posted: August 01, 2011 at 05:47 PM (#3890383)
Yet every year there is inevitably two or three threads where you lot whinge about how "dangerous" a pitch inside and up is, while the last known instance of anyone being seriously injured by that play recedes a century into history. But hey, it's sort of testosteroney and stuff. Surely it's bad.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. You commented that Weaver's specific barking was normal, and happens all the time. It isn't and doesn't was my entire point.
   72. Shredder Posted: August 01, 2011 at 05:49 PM (#3890386)
Weaver needs to learn to control his emotions better. You simply cannot get yourself ejected to make a statement or prove a point. Especially in a close game that you're trying to win.
There were two outs in the seventh inning, and Weaver was throwing his 111th pitch in a game they were losing 3-0. He wasn't coming back out for the eighth under any circumstances. He can't let himself get tossed in the third inning of a close game. He certainly can let himself get tossed when it comes against the last batter he was going to face regardless of the outcome. And a suspension? It will cost him what, one day?
   73. Dave Spiwak Posted: August 01, 2011 at 05:56 PM (#3890390)
Three things:

1.) I like arguing about yesterday's game because there are so many perspectives on retaliation, situational bunting decorum, HR trots, and other unwritten rules. Even though the arguments on this site (and most others) quickly get personal for some people, I don't care and it's still fun for me.
2.) All this arguing shouldn't overshadow the fact that this was a really exciting game with lots of emotion. I like the fact that guys on both sides were emotionally invested in the outcome. If I didn't want to watch games with passion I'd be watching a soccer friendly or the NFL Pro-Bowl or any NBA game for the first 3 months of the season.
3.) I think we can all agree that the guy on our team is right and the guy on the other team is wrong.
   74. Dave Spiwak Posted: August 01, 2011 at 05:59 PM (#3890395)
And when was the last recorded injury inflicted by someone showing up a pitcher with a home run trot?


Kendrys Morales inflicted serious injury on himself with a homerun trot.
   75. Dale Sams Posted: August 01, 2011 at 05:59 PM (#3890396)
Minor League Brawl: Bakersfield v. Visalia


More stuff we can blame on the Gagne trade!
   76. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 01, 2011 at 06:01 PM (#3890398)
Yet every year there is inevitably two or three threads where you lot whinge about how "dangerous" a pitch inside and up is, while the last known instance of anyone being seriously injured by that play recedes a century into history.

Al Cowens was 32 years ago. Dickie Thon was 27 (?) years ago. Tony C. was 44 years ago.

Jered has more a bit more Jeff in him than I realized.


Biggest pair of d-bag brothers in baseball history. Second place isn't even close. Weaver was acting like a jagoff most of yesterday's game; you have to wonder if there was anything more to it than getting outpitched by someone with more talent and better stuff. Weaver saw what he thinks he is, and realized he isn't. Carlos Guillen is a pretty mild-mannered guy; obviously something more was going on for him to pose and woof.

You don't want to get "disrespected," don't let a guy hit a homerun off you. Throwing at the next guy's head -- real macho tough guy stuff, #######.

EDIT: Coke to SoSH.
   77. Poster Nutbag Posted: August 01, 2011 at 06:01 PM (#3890400)
#72 - You justify it like that?!?!? Wow! No, no he can't. He can never, ever justify getting himself tossed for selfish reasons. Regardless of his pitch count. Regardless of the length of the suspension. You simply can never, ever justify that sort of selfish behavior. I highly doubt his manager or GM approved of his actions, although they are good enough leaders to not throw him under the bus publicly. I'll bet something was/is said to him privately by one or both. He needs to be a leader, and none of what he did yesterday shows leadership skills. He acted as selfishly as one could have in that situation, and that's not a good thing to see in your pitcher. Again, if it were a pitcher I cared for, I'd be pissed. I'd rather he think about the team, even if it's "just a day"...he seems to be at a point in his career where shouldering some responsibility, controlling his emotions, and responding more maturely can really step up his game a notch by making him not only a great pitcher, but a leader as well. Or, he can play into stupid little games with other teams and tunnel-vision on himself and his anger. Which would you REALLY rather he do? Shut the other team up by shutting them down, or acting like a selfish kid throwing a temper-tantrum?
   78. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 01, 2011 at 06:08 PM (#3890405)
Biggest pair of d-bag brothers in baseball history


Jose and Ozzie Canseco have something to say about that one.

the last known instance of anyone being seriously injured by that play recedes a century into history.


Sam I get a kick out of you most of the time but that's just ridiculous.
   79. Sam M. Posted: August 01, 2011 at 06:13 PM (#3890409)
This was a classic case of jerks on both teams being jerks in the exact same way: overreacting to either nothing whatsoever, or to something they then elevated to ridiculous proportions. It really doesn't matter who was first to pull the overreacting stunt -- they all acted like jerks.

Weaver overreacted to Magglio (who did nothing wrong).
Guillen overreacted to Weaver (who did something, but not much) with his little gloating stunt.
Weaver overreacted to Guillen (who was bad, but not bad enough to get his teammate almost decapitated) by headhunting Avila.
Verlander overreacted to Aybar (who did absolutely nothing wrong, and in fact a lot right by trying to compete to win a baseball game).

All in all, very entertaining stuff. Baseball needs more of this kind of raw emotion, where players show they aren't robots and get caught up in the competition of trying to beat the crap out of the other guys.
   80. Shredder Posted: August 01, 2011 at 06:15 PM (#3890414)
#72 - You justify it like that?!?!? Wow! No, no he can't. He can never, ever justify getting himself tossed for selfish reasons. Regardless of his pitch count. Regardless of the length of the suspension. You simply can never, ever justify that sort of selfish behavior.
I disagree.
Again, if it were a pitcher I cared for, I'd be pissed.
At the time I was little pissed that he didn't hit Avila (though I wouldn't have wanted him to get hit in the head), but I'm over it now.
Which would you REALLY rather he do? Shut the other team up by shutting them down, or acting like a selfish kid throwing a temper-tantrum?
Kind of a dumb question given the circumstances. Avila was retired anyway. And sure, if I could go back to first inning, and you gave me the option of Weaver pitching a shut-out, or throwing a ball over Avila's head after giving up three runs, I'd choose the former (duh). But he seemed to fire the team up a bit such that they almost came back and won, so I have no problem with what he did. And if Weaver needs to pitch with a little fire in order to lead the league in ERA with a 14-5 record and a WHIP below 1.00, I don't think getting overemotional once or twice a season is too big a price to pay.
3.) I think we can all agree that the guy on our team is right and the guy on the other team is wrong.
Absolutely.
   81. spike Posted: August 01, 2011 at 06:22 PM (#3890418)
while the last known instance of anyone being seriously injured by that play recedes a century into history.

Robby Thompson.
   82. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 01, 2011 at 07:09 PM (#3890460)
If bunting for base hits is part of a player's game, is he supposed to give that up because the opponent has a no-hitter going?


Yes.


I honestly find it stunning that an intelligent person can hold this position. A team is meant to stop trying to win because of the manner in which they're losing? That's absurd.
   83. BWV 1129 Posted: August 01, 2011 at 07:21 PM (#3890471)
Points:

1. Torii Hunter had a comment after the game about how everyone was stupid and both sides were unprofessional. I think that sums it all up.

2. I've seen, what, 1,000 innings that Jered Weaver has thrown in his life, and I've never seen him throw at a guy before. He also gets extremely angry at himself whenever he allows a walk, or a run, or a hard-hit ball, or misses his spot by more than a half-inch. Because of that history, I conclude that

2a. He did intentionally throw the pitch over Avila's head to "send a message" (the complete text of which was \"#### you", which he also repeatedly said as he walked off the field), but put it there so that it wouldn't hit him. I would be more comfortable if he had thrown it lower body, of course, but then he would have hit him. I really don't think he wanted to put Avila on base, so that was his compromise.

2b. However, and especially given that warnings had been issued, of course the ejection and suspension are warranted.

3. The notion that you're supposed to stop trying to win when the other guy has a no-hitter is completely bonkers. Aybar's bunt was a terrific play and kickstarted a rally that got the Angels within a run of tying the game. They had the potential go-ahead run at the plate in both the 8th and 9th innings. Now, if it was 15-0 or something, I could see an argument (I wouldn't agree with it) that you're not supposed to bunt against a no-hitter, but not in a close game, and the fact that the Angels came so close to coming back demonstrates why. You play to win the game.

4. Verlander does not come off well ######## about the bunt and telling Aybar he's going to hit him next year (these teams won't face each other again this year unless it's in the playoffs).

5. All of these things said, none of these players have a history of this. I think everyone just got caught up in the emotions of a close, dramatic (and hyped) game, let those emotions get control of them, tried to stand up for themselves and their teammates, and got all machismo in the way that successful athletes often do. That doesn't excuse anyone's behavior or actions, but it happens and you move on.

6. I suspect this will all be forgotten. Jered will push a start back a day, maybe Verlander gets a suspension or fine for threatening Aybar, but probably not. The only way it comes back is if Verlander really does nail Aybar in the ass next year, or Weaver gets Guillen next year. In the off chance these two teams meet in the playoffs (not impossible), I think both Weaver and Verlander are too big of competitors to be putting guys on base in games with such high stakes, and Scioscia and Leyland are more than capable of taking control.
   84. Ron J Posted: August 01, 2011 at 07:36 PM (#3890483)
#64 I think that's selective memory in action. Unless you don't count things like a broken jaw as serious.

EDIT: Besides, if there's no threat of injury what the #### is the point? It makes you feel good?

It's either a threat to do significant bodily harm -- in which case perhaps Guillen should gun him down before their next game just to be on the safe side -- or it's a bluff.
   85. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: August 01, 2011 at 07:40 PM (#3890487)
The Angels don't play the Tigers again this season, and Guillen's contract is up after the year. They may never get the chance to give him what they think they owe him.
   86. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 01, 2011 at 07:58 PM (#3890500)
I honestly find it stunning that an intelligent person can hold this position. A team is meant to stop trying to win because of the manner in which they're losing? That's absurd.


They're not suppose to stop trying to win, there is just a...I don't know what to call it, a "right way," in my opinion. Like I said originally, I understand why people disagree with me and I can step back and see why my position does seem "absurd" but in my mind there is just a right and wrong aspect to this that makes sense to me.
   87. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 01, 2011 at 07:59 PM (#3890502)
you have to wonder if there was anything more to it than getting outpitched by someone with more talent and better stuff. Weaver saw what he thinks he is, and realized he isn't.

Ummm, the guy's got a 1.88 ERA with a K:BB ratio of almost 4:1 and is allowing 0.43 HR/9.

I don't think anybody's got more talent or better stuff than him right now.

I mean Verlander is great too, but Weaver doesn't take a back seat to anybody.
   88. bads85 Posted: August 01, 2011 at 08:02 PM (#3890507)
I know it's hard to parse the fantastical hyperbole from what you actually think due to the inbreeding/farm animal DNA polka down there, but the things you think are happening in a majority of games, or even often, just aren't happening.


Bench jockeying (jawing, barking, etc.) has been part of baseball since the War of Northern Aggression -- that is what Sam is referring to. The idea that baseball players act like "adults" is just not rooted in any sort of reality -- hell, adults often don't act like "adults", but that is a story for another day. The game within in the game involves constant verbal jawing, although it doesn't usually take the form of a pitcher barking after he gave up a HR. It is usually from dugout to the field.

This started with jawing --- now I suppose you could say a major league pitcher doesn't often get sand in his vagina and start the barking while on the mound, but it is still just barking.
   89. Mash Wilson Posted: August 01, 2011 at 08:07 PM (#3890511)
Jose: as far as I know the rules permit bunting during no-hitters. I guess you're entitled to some kind of quasi-Samurai code of honor if that floats your boat, but most of us find it absurd. Your job is to reach base. If you think bunting is your best chance at getting there (and it might well be, it's Justin ####### Verlander) that's what you do. The only "wrong way" to win is by cheating.
   90. Sam M. Posted: August 01, 2011 at 08:11 PM (#3890517)
I don't think anybody's got more talent or better stuff than him right now.

Well, with all respect to Weaver, Verlander threw a pitch 100 MPH in the 9th inning yesterday. I mean, it's one thing when an Aroldis Chapman or a Bobby Parnell or some piss-ant little reliever comes in to throw 15 pitches and hits triple figures. A starter doing that after 105 pitches on a sizzling afternoon?

I wouldn't say it to put down Weaver or anything, but that's about the damndest thing I've ever seen. And yeah, I even know that's only one (kind of limited) definition of "stuff." But ... damn.

He was a jerk about the bunt, but so what? Forget the Cy Young. Verlander for God.
   91. BWV 1129 Posted: August 01, 2011 at 08:14 PM (#3890519)
I actually find the idea that you shouldn't bunt while down 3-0, just because it's a no-hitter, to be offensive. And this isn't like some power hitter bunting for a hit against a deep 3B in a 15-0 game. This is a guy who frequently bunts for hits, leading off an inning, in a close game.

*

I just did this in The Lounge, so I might as well post it here, because a conversation like this is more interesting than figuring out who was more immature yesterday:

Verlander has essentially one more season of innings than Weaver: 1245.3 vs. 1063.7.

I am highly skeptical of BB-Ref’s WAR, especially as it goes for starting pitchers, but despite this advantage in playing time, it sees Weaver with 26.2 WAR to Verlander’s 24.8—despite the “extra season” for Verlander, he and Weaver have been essentially identical in total value, according to this system.

I happen to like pitching runs, which is earned runs prevented against average. Weaver has 122.98 in his career, Verlander has 112.50. This advantage tracks very closely with that AROM’s WAR says.

Pitching runs don’t account for unearned runs, which many people like to look at. Weaver has allowed .19 UER/9 IP in his career, Verlander .27; to the extent that we can say this reflects their performance, it is an advantage for Weaver.

Some people like to look at the peripherals instead of the results. Weaver has a career 3.18 K/BB ratio, and allows 0.9 HR per 9. Verlander is at 2.94 and 0.8. I’ve never been able to figure out if the FIP at Fangraphs is park-adjusted, but Weaver has a career 3.57 FIP and 4.22 xFIP to Verlander’s 3.48 and 3.84. I don’t believe in FIP as a measure of value, or in xFIP as a statistic, but for those that do, that’s where they can make a case for Verlander. Not all the component ERA predictors agree, though; SIERA gives Weaver a 3.62-3.72 advantage, and tERA gives Weaver a 3.46 to 3.67 advantage. I am not familiar with these measures or how they are calculated.

Fangraphs has Verlander at 30.8 WAR to Weaver’s 23.9. That is an advantage more commensurate with the inning advantage, though I literally have no idea of how Fangraphs calculates its WAR.

Over the past 2.5 seasons, which I’m cherry-picking so as to ignore Verlander’s down year, Weaver has a 137 ERA+ in 603 innings and Verlander has a 136 ERA+ in 645.3 innings. You could give Verlander the edge over that period based on similar production over more innings.

Each team should be happy with what they have and not complain.
   92. Mash Wilson Posted: August 01, 2011 at 08:17 PM (#3890522)
Each team should be happy with what they have and not complain.


I really have trouble with the concept that I should invest time in figuring out who's better between Weaver and Verlander. They can both be damn good.
   93. SoSH U at work Posted: August 01, 2011 at 08:18 PM (#3890524)
Jose: as far as I know the rules permit bunting during no-hitters. I guess you're entitled to some kind of quasi-Samurai code of honor if that floats your boat, but most of us find it absurd. Your job is to reach base. If you think bunting is your best chance at getting there (and it might well be, it's Justin ####### Verlander) that's what you do. The only "wrong way" to win is by cheating.


I do think the idea that you can't bunt in a no-hitter when the game is close is absurd (and, honestly, I think most big-leaguers do as well because most seem to recognize the opportunity to win trumps respect for the no-hitter), I understand how the calculus is different if the game is out of reach. Regardless how we feel about it (since, you know, we're not the ones playing), both pitchers and hitters apparently take a "I throw my best, you take your best rip and we'll see what happens" attitude in that particular situation, and the bunt kind of flies in the face of that. It may not make sense to use, but then again these are grown men playing a game with balls and bats and running around in silly uniforms, so a certain amount of suspension of sensibility is already taking place.
   94. Sam M. Posted: August 01, 2011 at 08:23 PM (#3890531)
I really have trouble with the concept that I should invest time in figuring out who's better between Weaver and Verlander. They can both be damn good.


Well, I agree with the last point -- they can both be damn good -- but baseball fans have been having these debates for generations when great players come along in the same era. If you're not going to invest time in that kind of discussion, what's the point of being all-in as a fan? Mantle v. Mays. DiMaggio v. Williams. Jeter v. Nomar. When I was a kid, one of my best friends was an Orioles fan, and we debated Seaver v. Palmer endlessly.

We're not going to establish anything once and for all, of course. But the debate itself is kind of the point.
   95. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 01, 2011 at 08:24 PM (#3890533)
Well, with all respect to Weaver, Verlander threw a pitch 100 MPH in the 9th inning yesterday. I mean, it's one thing when an Aroldis Chapman or a Bobby Parnell or some piss-ant little reliever comes in to throw 15 pitches and hits triple figures. A starter doing that after 105 pitches on a sizzling afternoon?

I wouldn't say it to put down Weaver or anything, but that's about the damndest thing I've ever seen. And yeah, I even know that's only one (kind of limited) definition of "stuff." But ... damn.

He was a jerk about the bunt, but so what? Forget the Cy Young. Verlander for God.


Frankly, I couldn't care less how hard a SP throws.

Weaver throws hard enough to be awesome, that's hard enough. Verlander's awesome too.
   96. Mash Wilson Posted: August 01, 2011 at 08:26 PM (#3890538)
Sam: Yes, I believe I'm stating a point of disagreement between myself and many baseball fans. I honestly don't really care whether Verlander or Weaver is better.

I'll go ahead and make a ruling in you and your friend's case: You were right and he was wrong. But then again, it's not like he has anything to apologize for because his team had Jim ####### Palmer on it.
   97. Sam M. Posted: August 01, 2011 at 08:34 PM (#3890543)
Frankly, I couldn't care less how hard a SP throws.

You aren't awed by the formations of the galaxies at the dawn of time, the end of a star's life in a massive supernova, or the other great natural phenomena of the known universe, are you?
   98. Shredder Posted: August 01, 2011 at 08:38 PM (#3890545)
I do think the idea that you can't bunt in a no-hitter when the game is close is absurd (and, honestly, I think most big-leaguers do as well because most seem to recognize the opportunity to win trumps respect for the no-hitter), I understand how the calculus is different if the game is out of reach.
I agree. And to add, this was the lead-off hitter in the 8th, and therefore probably a more important baserunner than, for example, someone hitting with two outs and the bases empty. This was a point in the game when the situation and players involved created a situation where bunting for a hit is pretty close to the optimal strategy, with the side "benefit" of breaking up the no-hitter. A guy who is very good at bunting for hits against a team who probably wasn't completely prepared for him to do so. It would be different if, for example, a team put on the squeeze to break up a shutout when trailing 6-0 or something. Giving up an out for one run late in a game with a wide deficit is a poor strategy.

Two other things to note from this game:
1) If the Tigers had just taken the second out at first and let Aybar score, Verlander would have faced Izturis with the bases empty and two out. Probably would have gotten him out and preserved the no-hitter. Instead, they went for the out at home, botched the play, and let Bourjos get to second, which forced Verlander to go from the stretch with the threat of the tying run at the plate. I'm not saying it was the wrong play, because it was still a close game, and it should have been an easy play to get Aybar, but still...

2) I was really surprised that Trout didn't run for Abreu in the ninth when he led off the inning with a walk. A stolen base (Wells stole easily off Valverde) puts the tying run on second with nobody out. Abreu can still run and steal bases, but he can't run like Trout. I assume he was still there and hadn't been sent back to Arkansas yet.
   99. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 01, 2011 at 08:40 PM (#3890547)
You aren't awed by the formations of the galaxies at the dawn of time, the end of a star's life in a massive supernova, or the other great natural phenomena of the known universe, are you?

Don't know, never saw 'em pitch.

I'm actually more awed by the great slop throwers I've seen. Tommy John and Jimmy Key are two personal favorites.

I know how Justin Verlander gets people out. I have no idea how Jimmy Key did it.

That's why I'm really enjoying the Freddy Garcia experience.

Edit: And late stage Mike Mussina, that was awesome
   100. Mash Wilson Posted: August 01, 2011 at 09:07 PM (#3890559)
Jimmy Key? What's he, like 45? I could hit him!
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