Jimmy Key? What's he, like 45? I could hit him!

Hey, he'd still be the 2nd best SP on the Orioles.

I'm actually more awed by the great slop throwers I've seen. Tommy John and Jimmy Key are two personal favorites.

Well, if that's your thing, you should be the curator at the Phil and Joe Niekro Knuckleball Hall of Fame.

There's a difference between admiring the guys who do it with guile and tom-foolery, and being awed by the guy who can still somehow throw unrivaled gas in the 9th inning. Jimmy Key was a sweet little carousel, with pretty painted horses.

Justin Verlander is El Toro.

Everybody's favorite Francoeur has a metal plate in his face due to a baseball hitting it.

If you're not going to invest time in that kind of discussion, what's the point of being all-in as a fan?

If you're not going to invest all your time in sanctimoniously denouncing those kind of discussions, what the point of being all-in as an anonymous internet message board blow-hard?

why aren't more Angels fans pissed at Weaver for getting himself tossed?

Because the whole thing was kind of awesome?

I mean, one of the best and most intense games of the year, no one gets hurt, and the mother of all back-stories in the very unlikely event they meet in the playoffs. Even though my team lost, games like this are why I love baseball.

(Also, if Weaver wanted to hit Avila, the ball would have been at least two feet lower -- he has phenomenal fastball control.)

I see no reason to be upset at him getting himself ejected on the 111th pitch of what is probably his worst start of the year.

EDIT: Looking it up, it's not quite his worst.

The "Weaver started it" thing is nonsense. So Weaver thought Ordonez was admiring a home run when Mags was really just seeing if it was gonna go foul. Okay. If you're the Tigers, you think either "Weaver totally misread that situation. Mags wasn't admiring the home run" or "Weaver's a dick for getting pissy about that". Why would you egg on someone who's being a dick? A real dick is someone who thinks a fight might happen and then proceeds to make sure a fight will happen by egging people on, forcing a confrontation, stirring #### and being a dick back with the lame "they started it!"/"fighting fire with fire!" excuses. Carlos Guillen took a game that may have had some ill feelings and he escalated it by about 200% strutting around like an 8th grader who pushes a kid and repeats the phrase "You wanna go? Huh?" 20 times.

Why would you egg on someone who's being a dick?

You kidding me? Egging on someone who is being a dick is the most fun thing in the world.

He escalated it by about 200% strutting around like an 8th grader who pushes a kid and repeats the phrase "You wanna go? Huh?" 20 times.

More like he saw Weaver screaming around being like an 8th grader who pushes a kid and repeats the phrase "You wanna go? Huh", hit a bomb off him and said "shut the #### up." The dick then predictably did what dicks did, and earned himself a suspension. If anything, it worked out better than Guillen could have hoped since Avila fortunately didn't actually even get hit.

If anything, it worked out better than Guillen could have hoped since Avila fortunately didn't actually even get hit.

Fortunately? Why would someone need good fortune to avoid being hit by a pitch that was thrown with absolutely no intent to hit the batter?

Jered Weaver has extremely good control. I do think you should go too high with a purpose pitch because one could get away from you, even if you're Jered Weaver. But if he put a pitch that far over a guy's head, he meant for it to go over his head. Missing by two feet isn't really something he does. It's a big part of how he wins games despite being a RHP without huge velocity.

Fortunately? Why would someone need good fortune to avoid being hit by a pitch that was thrown with absolutely no intent to hit the batter?

Because even the god of control that is Jered Weaver ocassionally throws a ball when he means to throw a strike. You seriously see no danger whatsoever in what he did?

EDIT: to be clear I mean even if Weaver intended to miss, it's still kind of dangerous. If Avila and Weaver were friends do you think he'd volunteer to be his target in a William Tell show? Even if he only hits him in the face 5% of the time that's pretty ####### dangerous.

#111 I doubt it's as high as 5%. Still, Ball Four has an interesting bit on what constitutes pinpoint control. Bouton was surprised to find that he had what was considered pinpoint control because he missed his target fairly frequently.

Ah found the quote:

When I first came up I thought major-league pitchers had pinpoint control, and I felt terrible that the best I could do was hit an area about a foot square. Then I found out that's what everybody meant by pinpoint control

Curious....where does the notion that it was about a foot or two higher than Avila's head come from? Educated guess? The only pitch f/x data I can find, since brooksbaseball does not have the exact matchup, is the overall plot for all pitches. This one shows, to a left handed hitter, a pitch just UNDER 6 feet and WAY inside. Avila is just under 6 feet tall. Am I reading that chart wrong? Is there another with more accurate data? Or is it a closer pitch then some of you are willing to admit and that's why a lot of folks find it immature and entirely indefensible?

Guesses as to how close it was to Avila in this thread and the other ongoing one have ranged from a couple inches (my estimate), to a foot, to even two feet (at least that was implied by a comment in the other thread I believe). Avila ducking complicates a eyeball estimate though I would be shocked if it was more than 6 inches away from him before he moved his head.

I should add that although I'm not familiar with Avila's stance he most likely wasn't standing up to his full height, so that would shave a couple inches off.

Because even the god of control that is Jered Weaver ocassionally throws a ball when he means to throw a strike. You seriously see no danger whatsoever in what he did?

Jered Weaver has hit one batter in the last two years. Do you think he never, ever throws to the inside part of the plate, or do you think he just really has good control? I will grant you that throwing a ball well over a batter's head is more dangerous than throwing a ball in the dirt low and away, but that would have obscured the message Weaver was trying to send.

So, I am reading the chart right? It IS a lot closer than the Weaver supporters want to admit, isn't it?

Eyeballing it on the video, placing my finger where his head is, and then comparing where the ball ended up, I'd put it closer to 6 inches(maybe less). At most a foot. Nowhere near 2 feet.

The catcher is right-handed and has to reach across his body and over his head to grab it, but his knees are also bent near 90 degrees still.

I can offer this photo (see image #15 of 21).

Or pause this video at 4:25.

Hint: gauge where Avila's head is in relation to the fans in hats sitting behind home plate, then look where the catcher catches the pitch.

Of course what Weaver did was dangerous, but taking into account Avila's crouch the pitch looks like it was maybe a foot over his head.

I said in the other thread that it wasn't a foot. I think the six inches guess is reasonable. I think it's clear that he didn't want to hit him, but wanted to send him sprawling. Whether or not he threw it in the right place for that is another question, and I think it's actually kind of an interesting one. If the guy trusts himself to get it over the head, that's probably easier to do than, say, aiming at the shoulder.

Or, you could just hit him low. But what if you don't want to hit him, and just knock him on his ass? What's the best way of doing it? I don't know. I do think the over-the-head method is safer than others we could think of, but I really don't know.

#119 - Agreed, 6 inches seems to be a better estimate. Too close, when 6 inches can mean the difference between career/no career or worse, life/no life. You can plunk a guy with a f'in changeup to "send a message" and nobody would care. 90+ MPH in the vicinity of the skull is entirely indefensible. Throw junk. Throw behind the back. Plunk him in the hip with a slow curve. Especially when it's a guy NOT involved, like Avila. You'd get your "message" across just fine there. Or, as I said earlier in the thread, pull your #### together and man up. Be a leader. Send a message by striking the next M-F'er out, pointing to the dugout or whatever on your way off the field. I would rather see my guy showing he can rise above, not lose his cool and throw in the vicinity of an innocent parties head. Show 'em your the better baseball player, not the bigger jackass.

A slow curve doesn't get any message across. That's insane.

Still, Weaver had already gotten his message across loud and clear, said message being "I'm a whiny little #####!"

I do think the over-the-head method is safer than others we could think of, but I really don't know.

Throwing a fastball well behind a guy's back is the safest, and it sends the same traditional message -- a giant \"#### you."

Bill James, from his mailbag:

I thought Verlander's saying that it was bush league to bunt against him to break up the no-hitter was the MOST offensive thing connected with the game, and that if anything connected with the game was totally intolerable to major league baseball, it should have been that. Major league players have an absolute obligation to try to win the game, and the value of "respecting" a no-hit try cannot be allowed to take precedence over that. Anyone who suggests that it should, in my view, should be suspended until he apologizes and explicitly acknowledges that the other team has every right and every obligation to try to defeat him, without any regard whatsoever to personal goals.

I thought Verlander's saying that it was bush league to bunt against him to break up the no-hitter was the MOST offensive thing connected with the game, and that if anything connected with the game was totally intolerable to major league baseball, it should have been that. Major league players have an absolute obligation to try to win the game, and the value of "respecting" a no-hit try cannot be allowed to take precedence over that. Anyone who suggests that it should, in my view, should be suspended until he apologizes and explicitly acknowledges that the other team has every right and every obligation to try to defeat him, without any regard whatsoever to personal goals.

Hey, we've got a new clubhouse leader in the "who had the biggest overreaction" category from the Tigers-Angels set-to.