The group think thought the Yankees got a steal at the begging of the season.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/yankees_land_javier_vazquez/P0/

If it helps, Melky has been cover-your-eyes awful.

It sure seemed like a good move for the Yanks. I mean the expectation for him, at least in the press, was that he'd be a #4, even if there were quite a few people who thought he could be a #2. So it wasn't unreasonable to expect him to pitch a lot of innings as he normally does at an ERA in the mid 4's. Instead, Javy lost three mph on his fastball and looks done.

If it helps, Melky has been cover-your-eyes awful.

Not to mention that the real centerpiece of the deal from Atlanta's point of view, pitching prospect Arodys Vizcaino, went down with a sore elbow in June and apparently reinjured it when he tried to return in late August.

I am sure the papers would hate it as would a number of Met fans as well but I wouldn't mind rolling the dice on Vazquez this offseason. He has been a complete disaster with the Yankees but that's partly because his velocity has been down. I've been a fan of his for a really long time and think he could rebound nicely.

The group think thought the Yankees got a steal at the begging of the season.

Thank God I never bought into that, though I wish I'd been wrong. Vazquez spit the bit too many times the first time around for me to ever trust him again.

OTOH I'm glad I was wrong about Granderson, even if it took him over four months and Kevin Long to turn him into what the Yanks thought they were getting in the first place.

The Braves have something of a logjam at the back of the rotation; assuming Hudson, Hanson, Lowe and Jurrjens are all givens for next year's rotation, the Braves will probably slot in Minor at the fifth spot, with Beachy hanging around in Triple-A, Medlen coming back late in the year and Kawakami languishing because no one will take his contract. But I wouldn't be shocked to see them make a run at Vazquez any way. After all, McDowell was able to coax a career year out of Javy in 2009.

The easiest thing in the world to do is second guess a manager or coach and the next easiest is to criticize someone who does what most of us could only imagine doing in our wildest dreams.
The ability to pitch and hit at the major league level are a gift that only a few people will ever possess and of those, even fewer will succeed at.
We all know the guy has been getting beaten up more than an aging fighter. Why gloat over the failure? Why say he sucks? Why do you take delight in it? Describe the effort and the result. Comment on the performance but stop running down someone giving it his best, and doing it far better than any of us could ever do.
If you can do better, step up to the plate, or toe the mound. I’d love to see all the loud mouthed critics step out on a field and embarrass themselves in front of 40,000 booing spectators instead of embarrassing themselves on a seldom visited blog.

I'd like to see Javy Vasquez post on a message board at my level of excellence before I strike major league hitters out. I won't hold my breath.

If you can do better, step up to the plate, or toe the mound. I’d love to see all the loud mouthed critics step out on a field and embarrass themselves in front of 40,000 booing spectators instead of embarrassing themselves on a seldom visited blog.

Perhaps I should change the details on my CV and that photo, but I keep on sending out feelers to major league clubs, and no response.

The easiest thing in the world to do is second guess a manager or coach and the next easiest is to criticize someone who does what most of us could only imagine doing in our wildest dreams.
The ability to pitch and hit at the major league level are a gift that only a few people will ever possess and of those, even fewer will succeed at.
We all know the guy has been getting beaten up more than an aging fighter. Why gloat over the failure? Why say he sucks? Why do you take delight in it? Describe the effort and the result. Comment on the performance but stop running down someone giving it his best, and doing it far better than any of us could ever do.

If you can do better, step up to the plate, or toe the mound. I’d love to see all the loud mouthed critics step out on a field and embarrass themselves in front of 40,000 booing spectators instead of embarrassing themselves on a seldom visited blog.

Okay, that's a fair comment, but I don't think that noticing his repeated failures and wishing that Girardi would stop throwing him out there is anything more than that. I just wish he'd been doing this for the Rays or the Twins instead of the team I root for.

I know Boone Logan has been a pretty decent lefty specialist for the Yanks, but from what I've seen of Mike Dunn he was a pretty decent throw-in for the Braves to snag in the Javy deal too. He's defintely never going to have good walk numbers, but he seems pretty unhittable.

Instead, Javy lost three mph on his fastball and looks done.

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxo.aspx?playerid=801&position=P&pitch=FA

Really, I'd say the problem is that Jomerun Javy lost velocity twice this year.

The 1st between the end of last year and spring training, which led to the horrible run of starts in April/May, but was worked around after he was dropped from the rotation the 1st time.

He worked with Eiland (made that 1 relief appearance vs the Red Sox) and came back to have a string of quality starts at that velocity.

But then he had a "dead arm" period that followed the "happy times" and dropped another 1-3 mph and lost movement and Javy hasn't been able to pitch effectively with the doubly-diminished stuff.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think this is merely a "hates NY" or "can't pitch under pressure" or "just mechanical" thing, I really wonder if his arm/shoulder is healthy.

Anyway, I don't hold 2004 or 2010 against him, I thought the trade this off season was a good risk to take, pity it didn't work out.

Okay, that's a fair comment

No, it's not.

Perhaps I should change the details on my CV and that photo, but I keep on sending out feelers to major league clubs, and no response.

I'm pretty sure I could get picked up by at least a Division 3 team for winning the treble with Blackburn.

How much money would the Braves eat in order to move Kawakami?

I am sure the papers would hate it as would a number of Met fans as well but I wouldn't mind rolling the dice on Vazquez this offseason.

Blessed Allah, what kind of masochist are you, Russlan?

Thank God I never bought into that

Why?

Blessed Allah, what kind of masochist are you, Russlan?

I root for the Leafs, the Niners, and the Mets. I am starting to think I am a masochist. Think about that for a second. It's been 4 years since I've watched a playoff game for a team a root for.

Why gloat over the failure? Why say he sucks? Why do you take delight in it?

What, you think Yankee fans are happy about this?

I had extremely low expectations for Javy:

Javy Vazquez would have to suck pretty mightily himself, not to be a step up over the Yankees 4 and 5 starters last year.

and he STILL managed to disappoint. I am annoyed and unhappy about thi

Now, I can fully understand and appreciate it when the legions of Yankee Haters take pleasure in watching him fail. That comes with the territory. But even the Yankee fans who were proved right in doubting him, would have been much happier to be proved wrong.

If you can do better, step up to the plate, or toe the mound. I’d love to see all the loud mouthed critics step out on a field and embarrass themselves in front of 40,000 booing spectators instead of embarrassing themselves on a seldom visited blog.

Whoa Vince chill out..or should we call you Mrs. Vazquez!

Your diatribe on the subject should garner some sympathy...but not around here. Sure, none of us are professional baseball players, but we don't try to be. Compared to the other guys in MLB, Vazquez has sucked. Now if you want to compare lawyers(as I know a few guys here are in the legal profession), then you might have something. Though I'm thinking Vazquez would suck at that also.

Man, in that thread I said he'd have a 4.80 ERA. The Yankees wish I was right. I also suggested that Burnett would spend half the year on the DL and Pettitte would collapse--I was right, I just got the names reversed. (Of course, the Yankees got from Hughes what they expected from Burnett, so they turned out okay.)

He has been a complete disaster with the Yankees but that's partly because his velocity has been down. I've been a fan of his for a really long time and think he could rebound nicely.

I guess he isn't going to cost very much and the move to the NL and a bigger home stadium will help but I think you're dismissing the importance of the velocity drop. It could be a permanent thing since he's going to be 35 and has already amassed over 3000 innings, including the minors. If that's the case, he's going to be very annoying to watch, with all the home runs and nibbling around the plate. Those kinds of pitchers are very not fun to watch.

The group think thought the Yankees got a steal at the begging of the season.

Thank God I never bought into that

Why?

For the trivial reason that it's always embarrassing to be completely wrong about a prediction like that.

As to the "why" I didn't think it was a steal, I guess it was mostly because of his first time around in New York, which didn't seem related to injuries or anything else other than a slight case of the old Ed Whitson syndrome. The first time around, I thought that he was a steal, but once bitten, twice shy.

I really wonder if his arm/shoulder is healthy.

Don't we have to, when a guy loses that much of his stuff that fast?

Don't we have to, when a guy loses that much of his stuff that fast?

His velocity has been down most of the year. Why wouldn't they have checked earlier? I ask this not knowing if such a medical procedure would mean he would have to go on the dl for a while.

Why wouldn't they have checked earlier?

How do we know they didn't? Things do get missed, you know. Even repeatedly.

If you can do better, step up to the plate, or toe the mound

Yes, but the logical extrapolation of this is that I can't criticize the Rangers for signing Jerry Hairston Jr or Bengie Molina or really any transaction in the history of baseball. Cripes, Bob Feller will be able to throw harder than I can this afternoon after he gets his pacemaker. But I hope he's not starting the first game of the playoffs.

I really wonder if his arm/shoulder is healthy.

He's a 35 year old pitcher with 3000 innings in. His arm/shoulder isn't healthy.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think this is merely a "hates NY" or "can't pitch under pressure" or "just mechanical" thing, I really wonder if his arm/shoulder is healthy.

Yes his first time in NY he was PITCHING badly
this time he is THROWING badly

he's either hurt or he got old real fast

They should release him immediately so he can be home on the couch for the debut of 'four nights in october'

Given Vazquez's integral role in the worst and most embarrassing game in franchise history, I hope his labrum is shredded and he gave all of his money to unscrupulous money managers who embezzled it from him and he gets some kind of nasty, disfiguring disease, maybe leprosy, and spends the rest of his life mourning his horrible fate and wondering why he threw that fat pitch to Damon in the 4th inning.

Apologist!

How much money would the Braves eat in order to move Kawakami?

I dunno. As awful as he's been this year, he wasn't half bad in 2009 (107 ERA+ in 156 innings, albeit without great peripherals). I can't imagine the Braves will pay him $7 million to hang out in the bullpen or Triple-A, but pride and secondary issues (he was the Braves' first major Japanese import) may prevent Wren from eating a truly massive chunk of Kawakami's salary.

I root for the Leafs, the Niners, and the Mets. I am starting to think I am a masochist. Think about that for a second. It's been 4 years since I've watched a playoff game for a team a root for.

I root for the Nationals, Mariners, and Washington Wizards. You'll be getting no sympathy from me.

My Niners. Throwing an entire season away playing f'ng Alex Smith. He's more worthless than Ollie and Castillo combined.

Hugh.

Whoa Vince chill out..or should we call you Mrs. Vazquez!

Your diatribe on the subject should garner some sympathy...but not around here. Sure, none of us are professional baseball players, but we don't try to be. Compared to the other guys in MLB, Vazquez has sucked. Now if you want to compare lawyers(as I know a few guys here are in the legal profession), then you might have something. Though I'm thinking Vazquez would suck at that also.

You're comment expresses exactly what I didn't like about Jason's article. You like to get personal and name call instead of reporting. You gloat over this mans failure as if you never experience any yourself. Try going out in front of thirty thousand people and give it your best shot. Then, sit back and read the pot shot artists tear you apart. I know nothing about you and any attempt to characterize you would be folly. But don't let that stop you with a wise crack or insult in my direction.

Not only wasn't I looking for your sympathy, I wasn't defending the way he's been pitching. As a man, he deserves respect unless you happen to be one of his betters. Yes, he's had a bad year. That's part of the uncertainties of the game. Are you at the top of your game all the time and do you have your collegues telling you that you "suck" and stink up the place?

You have every right to express your opinion but at least man up and do it without calling names and trying to discredit a player whose jock you couldn't carry on a field or those you don't know and are in no position to judge. Or are you in the legal profession yourself?

Your argument is bad, and you should feel bad.