I'm going to stab someone if Mather was traded away.

Who/what was Maroth traded for?

Apparantly the deal isn't done yet.

From 9-21 to the World Series. That's worth a little bit of a legacy in Detroit.

I'm guessing Bryan Anderson is involved.

Good luck Mike. You were a good soldier for us during the bad years.

It's been said before, but, man what a depressing World Series defender the Cardinals are.

If we're not getting a major league reliever, I would hope Brian Anderson is involved.
I always liked Mike, and I'm disappointed to see him go. The Class of 2003 is down to Bonderman, Robertson, and Inge.

Miller could be great coming out of the pen, but I doubt that's best for his development.

If Brian Anderson is involved, I'll be beyond shocked. A major league reliever is a much better possibility.

I'm guessing Bryan Anderson is involved.

I'd be very surprised if the Cardinals would trade a great prospect for a soft-tossing lefty starter with crappy peripherals.

It's been said before, but, man what a depressing World Series defender the Cardinals are.

reduced to scraping up the detritus of your previous year's opponent

I've heard now that the PTBNL is Braden Looper, once he comes off the DL.

Interesting, Wale. Not sure what to think about that.

I don't know. Cardlinals are the team that gave up Dan Haren and Daric Barton for Mark Mulder.

I don't know. Cardlinals are the team that gave up Dan Haren and Daric Barton for Mark Mulder.

And Kiko Calero! Don't forget Kiko.

I'm guessing Bryan Anderson is involved.

Why do people think that the Cardinals want to give Anderson up? As I've said before, there is nothing coming out of the organization that even remotely suggests that he's not in their future plans - they were sufficiently impressed with him to jump him to the Texas League straight from low-A without even a stop at Palm Beach, after all.

-- MWE

I don't think the Cardinals want to give him up. I'm just looking at Tigers long term needs and factoring in past dumb Cardinals trades.

I predict that the PTBNL will be Troy Percival. He owes the Tigers something.

I've heard now that the PTBNL is Braden Looper, once he comes off the DL.

I don't see how that helps the Cards at all. They need to knock the #5 starter out of the rotation... not replace the guy with the best ERA in the rotation.

I don't know. Cardlinals are the team that gave up Dan Haren and Daric Barton for Mark Mulder.

I'm not going to defend that trade, but this isn't remotely the same thing.

There's a statement from Jocketty here.

Why do people think that the Cardinals want to give Anderson up?

Yadier Molina has at least 8 more seasons of 650 OPS for the Cardinals in him.

But we'll always have Aaron Heilman.

1. Cardinals shills never mention Bryan Anderson. They talk about Rasmus all the time, they bring up Perez, Hawksworth, and even lesser pitching prospects from time to time, but they never talk about Anderson.
2. Everyone talks about Yadier Molina as part of the Cardinals core for the next decade.
3. The front office, manager, and pitching coach are all very firm believers in Nichols' Law of Catcher Defense.

3. The front office, manager, and pitching coach are all very firm believers in Nichols' Law of Catcher Defense.

LONG LIVE MIKE MATHENY!!!

So, any word who is on this list of PTBNL the teams have exchanged?

1. Cardinals shills never mention Bryan Anderson. They talk about Rasmus all the time, they bring up Perez, Hawksworth, and even lesser pitching prospects from time to time, but they never talk about Anderson.
2. Everyone talks about Yadier Molina as part of the Cardinals core for the next decade.
3. The front office, manager, and pitching coach are all very firm believers in Nichols' Law of Catcher Defense.

Two points here:

1. Just because the shills fail to talk someone up doesn't mean that he's not held in high esteem by the people who matter. As I mentioned earlier (a couple of times), the fact that Anderson bypassed high-A ball to play at AA - a job which he EARNED in spring training, by the way, as he was originally ticketed for Palm Beach - says more about how the organization actually views him than what the shills say.
2. At this point, I'm not sure that TLR and Duncan matter all that much; I think that once Luhnow takes over (which will probably happen this offseason if not before) there will be a general housecleaning of TLR loyalists and a sea change in direction in the organization.

-- MWE

As desperate as the Cardinals are for arms, they would probably still be just as well off to pull Franklin out of the bullpen and let him start. At least unlike their other middle relievers turned starters, he actually HAS starting pitcher experience.

Blah.

As I mentioned earlier (a couple of times), the fact that Anderson bypassed high-A ball to play at AA - a job which he EARNED in spring training, by the way, as he was originally ticketed for Palm Beach - says more about how the organization actually views him than what the shills say.

Not necessarily. Palm Beach is a tough hitting environment and Springfield is a hitter's paradise. Numbers from one translate roughly the same as another, but hitting a 300/375/450 in AA does a lot more for perception than a similar line in A+. Further, and more to the point, considering how much work Anderson needs on his catching (look at the PBs) and how much pre-FA time Molina has left, rushing Anderson up the ladder didn't make a whole lot of sense if they plan on keeping him. This is the exact opposite of Molina's case, who skipped A+ in 2003 so he'd be ready to succeed Matheny after 2004.

I'm not sure that TLR and Duncan matter all that much

It's a little early to go climbing out on that limb.

2. At this point, I'm not sure that TLR and Duncan matter all that much; I think that once Luhnow takes over (which will probably happen this offseason if not before) there will be a general housecleaning of TLR loyalists and a sea change in direction in the organization.

Great, we finally get rid of the idiot legacy that Whitey Herzog destroyed the cardinals with and now we are supposed to believe that some other idiot with similar philosophy is going to take over and improve the minors?

Makes perfect sense, have a manager and a general manager with a clue and dump them because most people aren't quite intelligent enough to understand (I mean rob neyer actually...not freaking kidding, seriously thought that whitey herzog was better manager than tlr, that is like thinking the titanic is a better ship than the USS Constitution)



as to the relievers turned starter comment? not sure, Cardinal fans seem to be totally ignorant of both Thompson and Wainwrights career when making comments like that, sure Wellemeyer and Looper are stretches, except that Looper was a huge success so not sure that pointing to one out of two failures is a big notch against TLR.


as to Yadier Molina? umm guys this is a kid who was brought up a couple of years before he should have because of his defense and his offense will improve as he ages...factor in his defense and I don't understand all the venom.

except that Looper was a huge success

He's got an ERA+ of 90.

Granted, that is the best in the STL rotation, but still, "huge success"?
He's done better than I expected, certainly, but he's really fallen off as the year has gone on and as the innings pile up.

To be fair, the dude said "was a huge success." Until recently, Looper's ERA+ was around 120.

STL Post-Dispatch:

Maroth, 29, offers at least a semblance of reliability where virtually none has existed for several weeks.

"I think it's something we needed to do," said general manager Walt Jocketty, who finalized the deal during a teleconference call with Tigers general manager Dave Dombrowski.

The Tigers have until Sept. 15 to choose from a list of three Cardinals pitchers, at least one of whom is on the 40-man roster. The Cardinals also assumed the balance of Maroth's $2.95 million salary.
...
Friday's trade occurred four days after the Cardinals signed free agent Tomo Ohka following his release by the Blue Jays.

Ohka received an indifferent recommendation after Wednesday's start for Class AAA Memphis. The club probably will make a determination whether to promote him after his next outing.

Detroit News:

"We needed to create some roster space," said Dave Dombrowski, the Tigers general manager who was obliged to trade Maroth because of 25-man roster limits and too many players out of minor league options. "We had to make a move, and the Cardinals were the most persistent."

The player Detroit will acquire from St. Louis must be named by Sept. 15 and will come from a short list the Tigers have agreed to consider.

"It's not going to be a premier prospect," said Dombrowski, who acknowledged he had been working on a Maroth trade for some time. "It's not going to be one of their blue-chip guys."

The relatively quiet market for Maroth reflected his availability. He is a left-hander who mixes pitches and locations effectively, compensating for the absence of a hard fastball. He tends to keep his team in a game during a typical start, but he depends as much on his team scoring runs as he relies on his own skills.

I suspected that Monday would be Maroth's last start as a Tiger. Thanks for '03, Mike.

Maroth is awful. He is replacement level at best. The only plus is that in going from the AL to the NL, he will automatically be "better" in comparison to the rest of the NL pitchers. IOW, because the AL pitchers are better as a whole (if they pitched in the same league, they would have an ERA of something like .2 runs better), if Maroth is, for example, in the 10th percentile among starting pitchers in the AL, he will be like in the 15% percetile in the NL.

Maroth is not awful. He has had a bad few months, but he has been a consistently average or slightly below average pitcher for some time. There are plenty of teams who would love to have a C- pitcher at the back fo the rotation. It's possible that he has lost his stuff and is through, but it's tough to know that based on a few bad months.