Minaya can go to hell. I still haven't forgiven him.

I'll always say that Minaya's focus was always to put his name in the news as much as he could to get another job. It was always clear that contraction was never going to happen.

The second Bartolo trade was even worse. After tons and tons of rumors, he went to the White Sox for El Duke, Jeff Liefer and Rocky Biddle. Minaya had insisted on "major-league ready" players...

Holy crap. I forgot that Cliff Lee was also part of that deal.

The WAR differential for the four players involved since that trade has been 67-14.

The second Bartolo trade was even worse. After tons and tons of rumors, he went to the White Sox for El Duke, Jeff Liefer and Rocky Biddle. Minaya had insisted on "major-league ready" players...

Oh god, I had forgotten that. I think Liefer and Biddle were out of baseball within a year.

Oh god, I had forgotten that. I think Liefer and Biddle were out of baseball within a year.

Duque never played for the Expos. By WAR, that makes him the most valuable Expo of the three.

I think Liefer and Biddle were out of baseball within a year.

Of course, a few years after the trade while playing for the Brewers AAA team, Liefer got locked in the bathroom during a minor league game.

Yeah, I don't really believe that GMs from around the league actually thought there was going to be contraction. I don't even think Bud really believed that was going to happen.

The Expos didn’t even have scouting reports on their own minor leaguers; their previous owner, Jeffrey Loria, had taken them to his new team, the Florida Marlins.

How the heck is that even allowable? I know Bolshevik Bud's interpretation of "best interests of baseball" was largely focused on using Mr. Steinbrenner's hard-earned money to "make it rain" for his homies but surely stealing all of a team's developmental system reports and giving them to a competing franchise has to be afoul of any honest interpretation of the clause..

I don't see why those scouting reports would be all that valuable. All they said in the reports were "will look good in pinstripes" over and over again.

How the heck is that even allowable?

Because Minaya didn't object to it, apparently.

Minaya had been named GM just a few days before spring training started. The Expos didn’t even have scouting reports on their own minor leaguers; their previous owner, Jeffrey Loria, had taken them to his new team, the Florida Marlins.

Loria is worse than Castro.

Loved that trade, but I still want to fight Eric Wedge for forcing out Brandon Phillips when he did. We got basically nothing for a future All-Star 2nd baseman because he wanted Ramon Vazquez as his utility infielder and Brandon Phillips wouldn't play the humble, carry your bags rookie.

Eric Wedge is a bit of a baby. Its his way or the highway, but he hasn't even proven that his #### works like Tony LaRussa has.

Loria also got in the "deal" most of the staff (well, all those that he wanted) and the spring training complex in Jupiter completed in 1998, just before he arrived.

And thanks to Loria and Minaya's machinations, Washington was left holding the bag by decade's end.

How the heck is that even allowable?

That was a complete joke, everyone even said so at the time. How to you even have the balls to ask for that, I wonder?

He still needs to explain why he couldn't have done better.

but I still want to fight Eric Wedge for forcing out Brandon Phillips when he did

Phillips certainly didn't help his case with his 48 OPS+ over almost 500 major league plate appearances up to that point, and putting up a decent, but not great .740 OPS in AAA despite repeating the level 3 times. You can piss off your manager after you play like an all-star, but it's tough to get away with that when you barely look like a utility infielder.

Of course, about ten years earlier, the Expos traded Randy Johnson, Gene Harris and Brian Holman for a few months of Mark Langston. I remember thinking at the time that the deal was great for the Mariners, because i was convinced that Gene Harris was going to be the closer of the '90s.

Minaya is lieing. No-one really thought tat contraction was going to happen. And he didn't give a damn about the Expos - this was just his chance to make aspash so that he coud land a real job somewhere else. And even f he did believe that contraction was coming, that doesn't excuse massively overpaying for Colon. If he thought contraction was coming and that Expos minor leaguers had no value to the franchise and that it was all or nothing for the team, at the very least he could have made sure that he got good value for te players he did trade, instead of throwing away all his chips for Colon. Don't forget that Minaya also threw away Jason Bay for Lou "about to be released by the Mets" Collier at the end of spring training. Imagine how much better off that franchise would have been with Sizemore, Bay, Lee, and Phillips a few years later. Or in Minaya had been able to get fair value for those players. Incompetent self-promoting #######.

I remember thinking at the time that the deal was great for the Mariners, because i was convinced that Gene Harris was going to be the closer of the '90s.

That's funny because I thought Brian Holman was the real catch. I thought he was going to be a workhorse - consistent 15 game winner, 225 innings-eater. He had like two "meh" years as a back of the rotation guy. I thought Randy Johnson might be an okay reliever if he could ever learn to throw strikes.

Eephus,

The Langston/Johnson trade was defensible,because the Expos thought they were close to contending, ans acquired one of the best SPs in the game at the time (and he actually pitched very well for the Expos). And Johnson didn't turn into Randy Johnson Awesome Pitcher for 4-5 years after the trade. The Expos also drafted Rondell White with one of the picks they gt when Langston left as a free agent, which helped mitigate the sting a little bit.

You know, if Randy Johnson had figured out the flaw in his delivery that Nolan Ryan pointed out when he was 21 instead of when he was 28, he might have broken Ryan's strikeout record.

Imagine how much better off that franchise would have been with Sizemore, Bay, Lee, and Phillips a few years later.

They also gave Jake Westbrook and Ted Lilly away for Fat Toad Irabu (pre-Minaya), although in fairness both bounced around before becoming decent. Not to mention all the MLB talent they gave away.

Just imagine - in 1999, the Expos had Jose Vidro, Orlando Cabrera, Rondell White, Michael Barrett, Vlad Guerrero, Javy Vazquez, Dustin Hermanson, Ugueth Urbina, Carl Pavano all in their primes, with Jason Bay, Milton Bradley, Jamey Carroll, Ted Lilly, Jake Westbrook, Brian Schneider, Brad Wilkerson, and Brandon Phillips in the minors. No one thought this was a valuable asset to buy? The Royals or Pirates didn't think "hey, we'll buy the Expos and relocate them and you can contract our sorry-ass franchise"?

I'll always say that Minaya's focus was always to put his name in the news as much as he could to get another job. It was always clear that contraction was never going to happen.

Even if it was clear that the Expos weren't going to be contracted, and it wasn't "always clear," what WAS always clear is that no one really cared about the long term health of the Expos franchise.

The Expos fans didn't care about the franchise's future, because any future the team was going to have wasn't going to be in Montreal. The franchise wasn't owned by anyone in particular at the time, just MLB. MLB wouldn't even let the Expos spend 50k on bringing up September call ups in 2003. Minaya knew that even if the team wasn't contracted, the future of the team wasn't something anyone wanted to be a part of.

Why not just go nuts and trade for Bartolo? Who did he really screw over by doing that?
He didn't screw Washington fans, since the Expos weren't their team when he made the trade. He didn't screw over Montreal fans, because Lee and Phillips weren't ever going to play in Montreal. He didn't screwed MLB, because that trade didn't affect the value of the franchise.

MLB was screwin the franchise, go for broke and stick it to 'em by trading everyone away and trying to win all the games you can before the end.

I would have done the same thing.

How the heck is that even allowable? I know Bolshevik Bud's interpretation of "best interests of baseball" was largely focused on using Mr. Steinbrenner's hard-earned money to "make it rain" for his homies but surely stealing all of a team's developmental system reports and giving them to a competing franchise has to be afoul of any honest interpretation of the clause

Because, to repeat myself, no one cared about the long term prospect of the Expos (as far as talent goes), thus it was unreasonable to expect Minaya to care.

The Expos were an old ship. You gut the inside, rip anything useful out of there and take it with you.

Because, to repeat myself, no one cared about the long term prospect of the Expos (as far as talent goes), thus it was unreasonable to expect Minaya to care.

But what about the man charged with protecting the best interests of baseball?

what WAS always clear is that no one really cared about the long term health of the Expos franchise.

I'll agree that Minaya was no worse than everybody else in how he treated the franchise. There's still no excuse for not getting the most out of his trading chips. The franchise was not going to self-destruct in the next 24 hours.

To me a better job audition would have involved a competent performance in the GM chair. By giving away gift baskets only a few other teams were ina position to appreciate the generosity of spirit. In fact, the other organizations in the division where these guys played for the next six years were probably a little chapped.

To me a better job audition would have involved a competent performance in the GM chair.

Ended up not mattering, right? Minaya was hired back by the Mets after the Zambrano/Kazmir debacle, with Wilpon under pressure to name a GM to unambiguously lead the confusingly organized front office. Not totally convinced that he really needed to do that, he just picked someone he was familiar with.

pedro trade to the a.l. no picnic for those guys either

The Twins have nothing to show for the Santana trade.

Deolis Guerra is still hanging around at AA

Even if it was clear that the Expos weren't going to be contracted, and it wasn't "always clear," what WAS always clear is that no one really cared about the long term health of the Expos franchise.

I agree. I don't know what everyone else in this thread was hearing back in 2002, but the only thing that was clear re: the Expos franchise was that they were screwed. There was definitely a point where it looked like they were going to be contracted, then there was a point where it looked like they were going to be moved or someone was going to buy them, there were points when it looked like they were going to continue in Montreal with lame duck status. When the trade occurred people thought the Expos were giving up a big package (though Brandon Phillips's stock was down - he was considered to have an attitude problem, deserved or not), but were largely applauded for going for it because there was no future anyway, the team had started out "hot" (not actually, they were .500 but were only a few games out after having been doormats for the last previous 5 years), and there was a what-the-hell-we're-goin'-down-swinging feel to the move, which people tend to like.

The primary objection people raised at the time was less that Minaya had given up a ton and more that he had made the move a month or so too late - the Expos were only a few games out early on and were the Story Of Baseball - by the time they got Colon the team had fallen back (BBRef says they were 6.5 games out when they made the trade, whereas they spent most of May a game or two out) and it was clear the magic had cooled. What people said on June 27 was that they should have made the move in May so they would have had an ace to ride all year long and keep it alive.

It was a prospect trade. And a weird one at that. Phillips had been highly regarded in the minors, but some of the luster was off. He's since become a star. Sizemore was a star, then got hurt and is now nothing. Lee looked like he was on the long path out at 28, then overnight turned into a frigging stud. Colon pitched well for the Expos, got everyone excited when he ripped off a string of complete games (when Sabathia was traded to the Brewers and started throwing CGs every time out he reminded me of Colon for the Expos in 2002, though of vastly, vastly, vastly higher quality), and the Expos finished with a winning record after being a 68-win team the year before.

Loved that trade, but I still want to fight Eric Wedge for forcing out Brandon Phillips when he did. We got basically nothing for a future All-Star 2nd baseman because he wanted Ramon Vazquez as his utility infielder and Brandon Phillips wouldn't play the humble, carry your bags rookie.

Eric Wedge prefers that his players be A. white and B. WSU graduates.

Minaya had been named GM just a few days before spring training started. The Expos didn’t even have scouting reports on their own minor leaguers; their previous owner, Jeffrey Loria, had taken them to his new team, the Florida Marlins.

How is this even possible? Was there only one typed copy?

Surely the reports existed on a PC somewhere in Expos' HQ. Or someone had a hard copy laying around that they could xerox.

The truly amazing thing about the trade was how well the three prospects turned out. I'd wager that this was the only trade in major league history where a team got three guys who had never played a game in the big leagues that later went on to be All-Stars.

The truly amazing thing about the trade was how well the three prospects turned out. I'd wager that this was the only trade in major league history where a team got three guys who had never played a game in the big leagues that later went on to be All-Stars.

Didn't the O's get Rick Dempsey, Tippy Martinez and another good player from the Yankees for somebody like Ken Holtzman?

Edit: Here's the trade.

June 15, 1976: Traded by the New York Yankees with Tippy Martinez, Rudy May, Scott McGregor and Dave Pagan to the Baltimore Orioles for Doyle Alexander, Jimmy Freeman, Elrod Hendricks, Ken Holtzman and Grant Jackson.

Close but no cigar. McGregor fits the bill, but Dempsey and Martinez had cups of coffee with the Yankees, and Dempsey never made an AS team, which shocks me. How the hell do you play 24 years as an average to better C, and never make even a token AS game appearance?

The Yankees traded Fred McGriff, Mike Morgan (who was technically in the majors, but still young) and Dave Collins for something called Dale Murray...

Why not just go nuts and trade for Bartolo? Who did he really screw over by doing that?
He didn't screw Washington fans, since the Expos weren't their team when he made the trade. He didn't screw over Montreal fans, because Lee and Phillips weren't ever going to play in Montreal. He didn't screwed MLB, because that trade didn't affect the value of the franchise.

He screwed fans of the White Sox, Twins and Tigers.

Didn't the O's get Rick Dempsey, Tippy Martinez and another good player from the Yankees for somebody like Ken Holtzman?

Dempsey and Martinez were both in the majors at the time. They did get Scott McGregor in that trade, who fills the bill.

The Yankees traded Fred McGriff, Mike Morgan (who was technically in the majors, but still young) and Dave Collins for something called Dale Murray...

Collins was a long-time major leaguer at the time of the trade, and was never an All-Star.

Twins got Liriano and Nathan -- plus Boof Bonser, who was supposed to be the best of the three -- for AJ Pierogi...

There's the infamous Glenn Davis trade (Finley, Schilling, and someone else... though - the Astros didn't technically get all the WAR out of the bounty they got).

EDIT: Pete Harnisch... who if memory serves, actually gave the Astros the most direct value

Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz, Salty and Matt Harrison for Teixeira?

Randy Johnson for Freddy Garcia and Carlos Guillen comes close.

I was discussing this trade with a friend just the other day.

Me: Who would have thought in 2007 that Lee and Phillips would be way more valuable than Sizemore?
Him: Who would have thought that Colon would be way more valuable than Sizemore?
Me: LOL

But what about the man charged with protecting the best interests of baseball?

Worse than Castro, who at least doesn't look like Stephen Hawking after a beating.

How is this even possible? Was there only one typed copy?

Surely the reports existed on a PC somewhere in Expos' HQ. Or someone had a hard copy laying around that they could xerox.

At least according to some reports back then, Loria took everything with him to the Marlins. Even things which would be useless to Florida, like lifesized standup cardboard cutouts of Vlad Guerrero in an Expos uniform. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they just took all the PCs with them too, including any servers and every hard copy of any file they could get their hands on.

He really did everything he could to completely gut the Expos when he left.

At least according to some reports back then, Loria took everything with him to the Marlins. Even things which would be useless to Florida, like lifesized standup cardboard cutouts of Vlad Guerrero in an Expos uniform. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they just took all the PCs with them too, including any servers and every hard copy of any file they could get their hands on.

He really did everything he could to completely gut the Expos when he left.

Wow!

Still hard to believe none of the remaining employees had a hard copy. He didn't take absolutely everyone. You'd think one of the leave behinds would have seen what they were doing, and taken some critical materials home with them.

Surely the reports existed on a PC somewhere in Expos' HQ. Or someone had a hard copy laying around that they could xerox.

Expos' HQ was literally emptied by Loria when he left. He left with everything: staff, computers, files, etc. When the new management got in, they found empty desolated rooms. They had to start from scratch. It was sad, really. Well, the whole saga was sad. I don't even know who to blame anymore.

[Edit: Coke to RJ]

Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz, Salty and Matt Harrison for Teixeira?

Andrus and Feliz fit the parameters already, so all we need is for Matt Harrison to make an All-Star team for this trade to match up. (Salty had already played in the majors before he was traded.)

I don't know what everyone else in this thread was hearing back in 2002, but the only thing that was clear re: the Expos franchise was that they were screwed. There was definitely a point where it looked like they were going to be contracted

No, oh I know at the time that there were people who believed it was going to happen, people who believed it might happen, but I (and others) never for a second believed it was going to happen, and the belief that it would was just borne of ignorance with how MLB/MLBPA works or was just irrational

Now being gutted and moved, yeah that was pretty much the likely outcome the second MLB took it over.

How is this even possible? Was there only one typed copy?

Surely the reports existed on a PC somewhere in Expos' HQ. Or someone had a hard copy laying around that they could xerox.

My recollection is Loria took EVERYTHING, including their PCs, and the one speck of food that he left in the clubhouse was a crumb that was even too small for a mouse.

ETA: Cokes, though in my defense, I had to take time to look up the exact wording of the Grinch quote.

IIRC, there were rumblings about them wanting to take actual players with them too. It was absurd.

He screwed fans of the White Sox, Twins and Tigers.

Considering where Colon went from Montreal, combined with the fact that the only year the White Sox have finished behind the Indians since, they were 24 games back, I'd say the White Sox got by just fine.

Well my recollection is it was unclear what was going to happen the the Expos, but contraction could only happen if another team was found to kill as well and that really looked far-fetched. So no, the Expos weren't going to be contracted, but there wasn't anyone looking after their interests at all. This was the time of revenue disparity, complaints of unfairness, teams with money just putting the hammer down on those without by spending huge sums of money that wouldn't be matched for a decade and a lot of general ownership selfishness that wasn't addressed until the revenue sharing introduced in the 2002 CBA. (That sounds more dramatic than it was, but honestly there was a lot less "good of the game" thinking going on at the owners' meetings then than in the decade that followed.)

but contraction could only happen if another team was found to kill as well and that really looked far-fetched

I thought Pohlad wanted to be contracted too.

Until the city of Minneapolis got contraction of the Twins killed, there was an all too willing miserly owner ready to take his payout for his good friend, Bud.

ETA: slow on the draw today.

his was the time of revenue disparity, complaints of unfairness, teams with money just putting the hammer down on those without by spending huge sums of money that wouldn't be matched for a decade and a lot of general ownership selfishness that wasn't addressed until the revenue sharing introduced in the 2002 CBA.

Yeah, those big meanie teams like Texas and St. Louis and Seattle and Arizona just used their huge financial advantage to get all the best FA while the other big meanie teams like Houston, San Francisco, Atlanta, Oakland, and Minnesota used their bottomless wallets to keep their own players.

Is Omar Minaya the worst general manager in history?

No, it isn't clear Pohlad was really looking to be contracted. It was certainly a card to play in the fight to get a stadium built. He might possibly have gone through with it, but it wasn't a goal. His wife was a HUGE fan, he liked owning the team, and he eventually passed it to his boys who also like owning a team. I think he might have made enough money to ease all of those pains plus making his family vastly unpopular in their home state, but it certainly was something he wished to avoid. As it turned out, contraction didn't work and they got their stadium and made all that lovely money anyway and still get to own a team. Happy happy Pohlads!

Is Omar Minaya the worst general manager in history?

No.

Some of the notable trades that Bavasi has made during his 5-year tenure as Mariners GM include: Freddy Garcia for Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and Mike Morse; Carlos Guillén for Ramón Santiago; Asdrubal Cabrera for Eduardo Perez; Shin-Soo Choo for Ben Broussard; Randy Winn for Jesse Foppert and Yorvit Torrealba; Rafael Soriano for Horacio Ramírez, and Matt Thornton for Joe Borchard.

On February 8, 2008, Bavasi consummated a deal in which Seattle acquired pitcher Érik Bédard from the Baltimore Orioles. Bédard was traded to the Seattle Mariners in a 5 for 1 deal sending outfielder Adam Jones and pitchers George Sherrill, Tony Butler, Chris Tillman and Kam Mickolio to the Orioles.

The Brewers trading (one year of) Richie Sexson for Chris Capuano, Craig Counsell, Chad Moeller, Lyle Overbay, Junior Spivey and Jorge De La Rosa was pretty good.

All of them had played in the majors already, except JDLR. Capuano is the only one who later had an All-Star appearance.

Since that trade:
Overbay 16.3 WAR
Capuano 10.1 pitching WAR
JDLR 4.8 pitching WAR
Counsell 4.1 WAR (at ages 36-40)
Spivey 1.8 WAR
Moeller -4.3 WAR (oh dear)

Randy Winn for Yorvit Torrealba wasn't bad. The outfield was about to be overhauled with top prospects Adam Jones, Jeremy Reed,and Chirs Snelling, and the Mariners catching situation was a disaster.

Trading Torrealba for Marcos Carvajal four months later, that might have been a boner. Although they had to do it because they'd just signed Johjima.

I'd say Wid Mathews was pretty terrible. Slow to break the color barrier, kind of fell into Ernie Banks, didn't do much in terms of signing black and latin players. Horribly farm system, bad trades, just bad baseball for many years.

Salty Saltwell was clearly out of his depth. Hawk Harrelson as well.

All this stuff is really Bud Selig's fault. Let us not forget that after running the Expos into the ground, Jeff Loria wanted to buy the Marlins so badly that he couldn't be bothered to try to sell the Montreal franchise first. So idiot Selig offered to have MLB buy the Expos from him so Loria would have enough cash to buy the Marlins.

I really don't understand why Loria didn't have to sell the Expos franchise first before he could buy another one.

Yeah, those big meanie teams like Texas and St. Louis and Seattle and Arizona just used their huge financial advantage to get all the best FA while the other big meanie teams like Houston, San Francisco, Atlanta, Oakland, and Minnesota used their bottomless wallets to keep their own players.

What? I'm not able to parse your snark.

It was certainly a time where the gap between teams trying to win and teams just making some money was as great as any point in history. There wasn't necessarily any clear reason for what happened where, why OAK wasn't spending anymore or how STL had leaped forward and started spending, but it's undeniable that over the next five years Bud was able to herd the owners in a more coherent direction. They added the revenue sharing system to catch up the slow ones, slow down the big guys, and generally dampen the salaries heading to players.

You wrote that teams with money were putting the hammer down on the have nots and yet tons of teams were competing for talent and racking up wins during this timeframe.

KC couldn't compete then and they can't compete now and it isn't because the big boys could spend more money. Pittsburgh couldn't compete then and they can't really compete now and again it isn't because the big boys could spend more money.

Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz, Salty and Matt Harrison for Teixeira?

I thought the same thing. As a fan who suffered through the debacle of trading Ron Darling, Wilson Alvarez, Adrian Gonzalez and tons of others for nothing more than magic beans, I am glad we've come full circle now.

Tex was a very good player in Arlington. But the best thing he ever did for the Rangers was being the centerpiece of this trade.

Ah, good times. Good times.

I was thrown by the "keep their own players" part. MIN and OAK in the early 00s were not keeping all their guys. Damon and Giambi both left after the 01 season, and Matt Lawton left MIN as well. Meanwhile revenue sharing in the next decade really did take away a lot of the excuses for teams like KC and PIT (doubly so with their new park.) They can write checks if they want to. their problems lie in identifying who should be kept long-term.

It was certainly a time where the gap between teams trying to win and teams just making some money was as great as any point in history.

And the cure was to guarantee even more unearned free money to certain well-connected plutocrats regardless of wins, losses, or financial need. I mean, Loria's a good foot solider in the Budshovik revolution, just because he sabotaged one team doesn't mean he should get hundreds of millions in free unearned money to horde for himself while paying players peanuts. Whatever it takes to "dampen the salaries heading to players", new money is such a bore.

He screwed fans of the White Sox, Twins and Tigers.

As I recall the response from the rest of the league was "Damn, if we'd known" after the deal was made. In 2002 Gammons was still running the show with his ESPN column and he was all over the trade.

and Dempsey never made an AS team, which shocks me. How the hell do you play 24 years as an average to better C, and never make even a token AS game appearance?

1: Dempsey was never regarded as a star
2: Dempsey was barely a regular most years
3: Dempsey's best years, the only years he could argued to have been an all star caliber player- he had better second halves than firsts
4: Dempsey's most remarkable trait was his career endurance- not something that you tend to get short term credit for.

But seriously, this was a guy whose best looking season by traditional stats was 1985 when he went .254-12-52 (he was 5th in WAR among catchers that year - #6 was Lance Parrish who was regarded as a star and he hit .273-28-98- 99.9% of baseball fans would have told you that you wee nuts back then if you said Dempsey was just as good)
For his career he was .233/.319/.347- which actually was not terrible considering the offensive context in which he played

It's now pretty apparent the Marlins got basically nothing for Miguel Cabrera. The only player who's done anything is Maybin, and he did it after leaving the Fish. Their return on Cabrera (and Dontrelle Willis, yecch): pitchers Andrew Miller, Dallas Trahern, Eulogio De La Cruz and Burke Badenhop, outfielder Cameron Maybin, and catcher Mike Rabelo.

Selig's actions also had impacts on the field in 2003, when the Expos were actually good. Tied for the wild card lead in late August, then a brutal road trip through Puerto Rico without the right to call players up in September.

The Expos also lacked a TV contract and none of their games were broadcast during *at least* that last season. I recall that point being hammer home again and again as proof that the market in Montreal hated baseball and the team had to move.

It's now pretty apparent the Marlins got basically nothing for Miguel Cabrera. The only player who's done anything is Maybin, and he did it after leaving the Fish. Their return on Cabrera (and Dontrelle Willis, yecch): pitchers Andrew Miller, Dallas Trahern, Eulogio De La Cruz and Burke Badenhop, outfielder Cameron Maybin, and catcher Mike Rabelo.

It surprises me how this has gotten pretty much no attention whatsoever, that turned into a phenomenally bad trade for the Marlins.

It's now pretty apparent the Marlins got basically nothing for Miguel Cabrera.

At the time I thought Maybin was going to be real good and that Miller needed a change of scenery...
Maybin has been disappointing, but may yet have a career- Miller? He actually looks good throwing on the mound, but the results have not been there- as a professional the results have literally never been there.

Miller was the "consensus" best pitcher available his draft class - and he made the majors after three appearances (5 innings total) in the FSL... well he put up a 6/10 k/BB ratio in the majors, so not ready
back down to the FSL, where he was ok in 40ip
and gets promoted to AA, where he is DOMINANT, for 4 starts- and well it's back to the majors

but alas he's not quite ready yet- and he spends the next three years up and down- literally it seems like every time he had two good starts in a row in the minors he'd be promoted, thrown in the rotation... spit the bit, get sent down, and repeat... he also had an injury or two thrown in for good measure, and saw his control start to erode at all levels.

It's hard to see how Miller's teams could have handled his development any worse if they tried. A friend of mine insists that Miller is still going to end up having an Isringhausen style career as a closer...

What happened to the Marlins staff that was there before Loria? Did they all get fired? Absorbed into the organization?

They all went to Boston.

The Expos also lacked a TV contract and none of their games were broadcast during *at least* that last season. I recall that point being hammer home again and again as proof that the market in Montreal hated baseball and the team had to move.

This was also Loria's doing, as he torpedoed their TV contract, and settled for radio broadcasts (in only one language I believe, though I can't remember if it was English or French)

I really don't understand why Loria didn't have to sell the Expos franchise first before he could buy another one.

Remember, this was a interconnected three-way dance - one that needed to get Henry from owning the Marlins to owning the Red Sox.

That would have screwed the Red Sox end of the deal, because then Henry couldn't buy the Red Sox if Loria couldn't buy the Marlins.

Until the city of Minneapolis got contraction of the Twins killed, there was an all too willing miserly owner ready to take his payout for his good friend, Bud.

At the time, this didn't strike me as particularly weird (other than in the way that contraction was a boondoggle to begin with), but now I find the whole business simply astounding. I live in MPLS now, and though the Twins were pretty awful last year, the fanbase here is broad and dedicated. This is an MLB town far more than it is an NFL town, and after getting abandoned by the NHL a few years ago it's a baseball town first and foremost. The idea that the best plan for the Twin Cities was to kill the team is profoundly silly.