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Wednesday, December 06, 2017

Rosenthal: He’s 53 and hasn’t played in the majors since 2005, but Rafael Palmeiro is eyeing a comeback, and redemption – The Athletic

You don’t need to get beyond the payroll.

As crazy as it sounds, Palmeiro is thinking about trying to return to the majors. Part of his motivation stems from his belief that he can still help a club. Part of it stems from the way his career ended in disgrace, with teams shunning him after he was suspended in August 2005 for testing positive for a performance-enhancing drug.

“There’s no doubt in my mind I can do it,” says Palmeiro, who ended his career as one of five players to reach both 500 home runs and 3,000 hits. “I’ve taken care of myself really well. I’ve been working out for years. Everything feels better than when I played.”

Jim Furtado Posted: December 06, 2017 at 11:52 AM | 93 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: pay site, rafael palmeiro

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   1. michaelplank has knowledgeable eyes Posted: December 06, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5587249)
He should come back and play 28 games at first base.
   2. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 06, 2017 at 12:03 PM (#5587253)
LOL.
   3. Traderdave Posted: December 06, 2017 at 12:06 PM (#5587256)
I'd love to see a pentagenarian in the lineup, but even at soon-to-be 59, Rickey would still be the better player.
   4. bunyon Posted: December 06, 2017 at 12:06 PM (#5587257)
I'm sure everything feels better than when you were playing because you're rested. One full day of Spring Training at 53 should cure you of that feeling.


If you fall off the ballot once, do you get back on by coming back?
   5. PepTech Posted: December 06, 2017 at 12:07 PM (#5587259)
Minnie Minoso would probably still be faster than Palmeiro. Even dead.
   6. Nasty Nate Posted: December 06, 2017 at 12:12 PM (#5587260)
I'd love to see a pentagenarian in the lineup, but even at soon-to-be 59, Rickey would still be the better player.
Bonds is the same age as Palmeiro - he'd probably be better than both. The Big Unit is a year older, I bet he could be an effective LOOGY.
   7. Ithaca2323 Posted: December 06, 2017 at 12:14 PM (#5587262)
Serious question: Suppose he does come back and play in one game. Does his Hall clock reset? My gut thinks that's his *real* motivation—to take advantage of shifting minds on PEDs and get elected. Then again, he did so poorly even by PED standards...

But the rest is pure "best shape of his life" spring training nonsense
   8. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: December 06, 2017 at 12:19 PM (#5587272)
He's a sharpy, that one. He's pushing for a senior league.
   9. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 06, 2017 at 12:28 PM (#5587285)
What better way to convince everyone you never took PEDs than to be able to come back and play in the majors at age 53 after a 12-year layoff?
   10. Baseballs Most Beloved Figure Posted: December 06, 2017 at 12:36 PM (#5587301)
The Athletic wants to charge for this dreck?
   11. reech Posted: December 06, 2017 at 12:41 PM (#5587308)
Screw him. This is just a publicity ploy.
   12. PreservedFish Posted: December 06, 2017 at 12:43 PM (#5587312)
I remember hearing the ex-NBA player John Salley in a radio interview about a decade ago. Maybe less than a decade. He's a very smart and fun guy but when they spoke about playing, he was the worst type of Gossage/Bunning style grump. He complained about how shoddy league play had gotten since he retired, how fundamentals were now unknown, etc. But most ridiculous of all, he claimed that he could still easily outplay many of the centers in the league.

Salley would have been in his middle 40s at this point. He may have forgotten:

1. He was a backup for most of his career and thus even in his prime would have had a tough time proving this claim
2. He left the league when he was 31 after putting up the worst numbers of his career across the board in less than 20 minutes per game
3. He then played in Greece for a year. Probably not his first choice.
4. He actually made a comeback at age 35, during which he averaged 2 points per game playing 7 garbage time minutes per game

It is thoroughly clear that the league spit him out at this age, that he was totally done and had nothing else to offer. He must have been among the worst players in the league. So to harbor the delusion, a full decade later, that not only could he still hold an NBA job but that he could actually succeed at it ... just, wow. And it's a complex delusion: if he really believed this he must have also somehow convinced himself that he honestly preferred to pass up the millions of dollars he could have earned as a strong NBA player.
   13. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 06, 2017 at 12:44 PM (#5587315)
he must have also somehow convinced himself that he honestly preferred to pass up the millions of dollars he could have earned as a strong NBA player.

Take it to the Ohtani thread.
   14. Lest we forget Posted: December 06, 2017 at 01:02 PM (#5587347)
Jim Palmer
   15. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: December 06, 2017 at 01:18 PM (#5587378)
Perhaps he just thinks Doug Fister's wife is pretty hot.
   16. SoSH U at work Posted: December 06, 2017 at 01:22 PM (#5587385)
Serious question: Suppose he does come back and play in one game. Does his Hall clock reset? My gut thinks that's his *real* motivation—to take advantage of shifting minds on PEDs and get elected. Then again, he did so poorly even by PED standards...


He can be put back on the ballot. He still only has a maximum of 10 years on it, however.

Jose Rijo was on the ballot in 2001, then again in 2008 following his two-year return in 01-02.

   17. Khrushin it bro Posted: December 06, 2017 at 01:30 PM (#5587400)
I would watch a league with Palmeiro, Rickey! and Bonds facing the big unit.
   18. QLE Posted: December 06, 2017 at 01:31 PM (#5587401)
If you fall off the ballot once, do you get back on by coming back?


Yes, actually- Jose Rijo made the 2001 ballot, dropped off, returned to MLB for two years, then made the ballot again in 2008.

EDIT: SoSH, your Coke is waiting.
   19. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: December 06, 2017 at 01:34 PM (#5587408)
Yes, actually- Jose Rijo made the 2001 ballot, dropped off, returned to MLB for two years, then made the ballot again in 2008.

EDIT: SoSH, your Coke is waiting.

I'm pretty sure that they changed this a few years ago when they shortened the ballot from 15 to 10 years. They wanted to get the PED players off the ballot ASAP.

Palmeiro's only chance of getting in is via some future incarnation of the Veteran's Committee.
   20. Greg Pope Posted: December 06, 2017 at 01:35 PM (#5587410)
He can be put back on the ballot. He still only has a maximum of 10 years on it, however.

So if Trammell came back and played, he could not be placed back on the ballot, but Whitaker could? I never thought of it that way. I assumed his 10 years reset, too.
   21. SoSH U at work Posted: December 06, 2017 at 01:42 PM (#5587426)
I'm pretty sure that they changed this a few years ago when they shortened the ballot from 15 to 10 years. They wanted to get the PED off the ballot ASAP.


I can't find anything that says that. However, one change that has been made is that players can go directly from the BBWAA ballot to the Vets ballot (whereas they used to have to wait until their 15 years of eligibility via the BBWAA vote was up), so it may be covered that way.
   22. Howie Menckel Posted: December 06, 2017 at 01:44 PM (#5587430)
I would watch a league with Palmeiro, Rickey! and Bonds facing the big unit.

so you're the one!

what's old is new again

"The Senior Professional Baseball Association was a winter baseball league based in Florida for players age 35 and over (with a minimum age of 32 for catchers). SPBA was the idea of Colorado real estate wheeler-dealer (and former minor leaguer) Jim Morley. Morley saw how the Senior Golf Tour worked and thought "Why not a Senior League for Baseball?" The league began play in 1989 and had eight teams in two divisions and a 72 game schedule. Pitchers Rollie Fingers, Fergie Jenkins (both future Hall of Famers), and Vida Blue, outfielder Dave Kingman, and manager Earl Weaver were the league's marquee names, and former big league outfielder Curt Flood was the circuit's first Commissioner. At age 54, Ed Rakow was the league's oldest player. Former strikeout king J.R. Richard was drafted by the league but cut in preseason.

Throughout the inaugural season, most clubs struggled with poor attendance. The league attendance for the year was 262,480, an average of 911 per game. The West Palm Beach Tropics led the league in attendance with 56,012, an average of 1,555 per game while the Orlando Juice attendance was last with an average of 389 per game. ........

Infielder Ron Washington of West Palm Beach was the league's big offensive star, hitting .359 with a league leading 73 RBIs. Washington's teammate Mickey Rivers hit .366, and Gold Coast Sun Bert Campaneris, the oldest everyday player in the league at 47, stole 16 bases. Bradenton's Jim Morrison hit .290 with 55 RBIs and led the league with 17 homers. Tim Ireland of Fort Myers hit a league best .374, and his teammate Kim Allen paced the circuit with 33 stolen bases. Willie Aikens hit 12 home runs and had 58 RBIs. West Palm Beach pitcher Juan Eichelberger went 11-5 with a 2.90 ERA, and St. Petersburg's Milt Wilcox went 12-3. Jon Matlack, Tim Stoddard, and Pete Falcone each won 10 games.......

Less than halfway through its second season, the league folded on December 28th, 1990.

   23. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: December 06, 2017 at 01:48 PM (#5587439)
Serious question: Suppose he does come back and play in one game. Does his Hall clock reset?


Depends on what Joe Morgan thinks.
   24. Nasty Nate Posted: December 06, 2017 at 01:53 PM (#5587449)
Infielder Ron Washington of West Palm Beach was the league's big offensive star, hitting .359 with a league leading 73 RBIs.
It's not that hard to start a senior league. Tell 'em, Wash.
   25. Nasty Nate Posted: December 06, 2017 at 01:55 PM (#5587452)
I would watch a league with Palmeiro, Rickey! and Bonds facing the big unit.
Sounds good to me. Go get Cone, Clemens, Edgar, Straw, El Duque, Maddux, Wakefield, Alomar(s), Sheffield etc. And Moyer and Julio Franco, of course. Does Coleman still have wheels?
   26. GregD Posted: December 06, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5587471)
What is the downside of this?

In the incredibly unlikely event he actually can play at a high level, it will be one of the most-amazing stories of my life

And in the much more likely event that he makes himself looked stupid, then watching videos of his buffoonery will bring joy to the masses of people who already think he's a buffoon
   27. Batman Posted: December 06, 2017 at 02:16 PM (#5587473)
Manny Ramirez played his age 45 season in Japan this year, but his English language page on the team's official site doesn't include his stats or his blood type. It does link to the team's Bigmanager's page though.
   28. Khrushin it bro Posted: December 06, 2017 at 02:26 PM (#5587488)
I'd watch those guys play but an entire season is ridiculous. Looks like they had 72 game seasons, I'd make it half that.
   29. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 06, 2017 at 02:35 PM (#5587500)
Does Coleman still have wheels?


I'd rather sign the tarp.
   30. Arch Stanton Posted: December 06, 2017 at 02:42 PM (#5587508)
It's not that hard to start a senior league. Tell 'em, Wash.


It's incredibly hard.
   31. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 06, 2017 at 02:47 PM (#5587515)
"The Senior Professional Baseball Association was a winter baseball league based in Florida for players age 35 and over (with a minimum age of 32 for catchers). SPBA was the idea of Colorado real estate wheeler-dealer (and former minor leaguer) Jim Morley. Morley saw how the Senior Golf Tour worked and thought "Why not a Senior League for Baseball?"


Well, that one's easy -- because golfers over 50 can and do still win main tour events whereas 50 year old baseball players ... well, yeah.
   32. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: December 06, 2017 at 03:10 PM (#5587536)
Infielder Ron Washington of West Palm Beach was the league's big offensive star, hitting .359 with a league leading 73 RBIs. ... Jon Matlack, Tim Stoddard, and Pete Falcone each won 10 games.

I don't believe any of this because it's not on baseball-reference.
   33. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: December 06, 2017 at 03:21 PM (#5587542)
He's a very smart and fun guy but when they spoke about playing, he was the worst type of Gossage/Bunning style grump.


These guys have started sprouting up all over in the post-Curry age. The game has changed and they don't like it, so they assume it must be bad -- not just less fun to watch (debatable), but less effective. How could it possibly take over the game if it's less effective? Why, because the players are worse, of course. This is the same as the guys who grumble about the spread offense in college football. "In my day, we would have destroyed that backfield." No, dude. In your day, they would have run you off your feet.
   34. Rally Posted: December 06, 2017 at 03:25 PM (#5587548)
Two things working against SPBA:

1. Instead of entering the league, improving, reaching a peak, and declining, players for the most part are on an immediate path of decline.

2. The best players are not necessarily the biggest names. Ron Washington is better known now that he's had a career as a manager, but watching Washington lead the league in RBI instead of Mike Schmidt or George Brett is probably not good for the league's popularity.
   35. Booey Posted: December 06, 2017 at 03:31 PM (#5587553)
These guys have started sprouting up all over in the post-Curry age.


Yep. Everyone is chiming in about how easily they could've beaten the record setting Warriors. It's one thing for a former champion to think they could beat a current champion; I get that. But they always predict it would be a sweep. That seems deliberately disrespectful to me. And it's usually flat out stupid to boot cuz the majority of these former champs didn't even sweep any of the lower and middle of the pack playoff teams they actually faced during their title years. So you couldn't sweep some random, forgettable 7th seed back in your day, but somehow you'd sweep the all time great, powerhouse #1 seed from today? Yeaaaaaahhhh.....
   36. Lassus Posted: December 06, 2017 at 03:48 PM (#5587564)
I remember hearing the ex-NBA player John Salley

Slice of life:

In... 2001 Salley was having a lunch business meeting two tables away from me at a middling place on 6th Avenue and 11th street about a pornstar he was promoting. He was... less than respectful regarding his client (not present). You could even see it in the faces of the those he was trying to promote her to, they were not happy about being there.
   37. jmurph Posted: December 06, 2017 at 03:54 PM (#5587576)
Yep. Everyone is chiming in about how easily they could've beaten the record setting Warriors. It's one thing for a former champion to think they could beat a current champion; I get that. But they always predict it would be a sweep. That seems deliberately disrespectful to me. And it's usually flat out stupid to boot cuz the majority of these former champs didn't even sweep any of the lower and middle of the pack playoff teams they actually faced during their title years. So you couldn't sweep some random, forgettable 7th seed back in your day, but somehow you'd sweep the all time great, powerhouse #1 seed from today? Yeaaaaaahhhh.....

Appropriately enough, Steve Kerr is the best ex-player I've heard on this subject (appropriately, for you non-NBA fans, because he was a player on the Jordan Bulls and now coaches the Warriors). The first thing he mentions is the change in rules/style of play which makes the comparison almost impossible, and then he talks about how difficult it would be to cover Jordan and how difficult it would have been for the 90s Bulls to defend Curry/Durant.
   38. Howie Menckel Posted: December 06, 2017 at 04:16 PM (#5587600)
golfers over 50 can and do still win main tour events whereas 50 year old baseball players ... well, yeah.

there have been a handful of players age 50-53, true, in regular PA Tour events.

Tom Watson at Turnberry for The (British) Open Championship in 2009 kept right in contention all the way. It was crazy, because everyone knew - including Watson, it felt like - that this was unpossible. But the Open champ of 1975-77-80-82-83 soldiered on at Turnberry, all those decades later.

He even got to the 18th tee needing only a par to win it. The pressure seemed unbearable, but somehow Watson hit a tee shot down the middle. I feared the second shot, but it was a pretty good one - it just rolled past the green, though, leaving a tricky up-and-down.

Watson finally flinched on his third shot, leaving it 8 feet by. It was brutal watching that par putt, knowing that even the great Watson wasn't going to close the deal.

The four-hole playoff against Stewart Cink was just the bloodbath one would have expected after a bogey that Watson later said "tore my guts out." Cink won the playoff by 6 shots.

So Palmeiro has some work to do
:)
   39. Khrushin it bro Posted: December 06, 2017 at 04:50 PM (#5587627)
The Senior Professional Baseball Association was a winter baseball league based in Florida for players age 35 and over (with a minimum age of 32 for catchers)


There are a ton of guys who barely can't hang on at age 35 in MLB that would be fun to watch. Also guys with crazy tools but flaws in their game (guy that throws 100 mph or hits the ball 500 feet) would be entertaining when not getting picked apart by the best talent in the world.
   40. Batman Posted: December 06, 2017 at 05:13 PM (#5587643)
Appropriately enough, Steve Kerr is the best ex-player I've heard on this subject (appropriately, for you non-NBA fans, because he was a player on the Jordan Bulls and now coaches the Warriors).
He won two championships as a player with the Spurs too, so he's probably had practice refusing to compare great teams.
   41. Graham & the 15-win "ARod Vortex of suck" Posted: December 06, 2017 at 05:17 PM (#5587646)
Tom Watson at Turnberry for The (British) Open Championship in 2009 kept right in contention all the way. It was crazy, because everyone knew - including Watson, it felt like - that this was unpossible. But the Open champ of 1975-77-80-82-83 soldiered on at Turnberry, all those decades later.

He even got to the 18th tee needing only a par to win it. The pressure seemed unbearable, but somehow Watson hit a tee shot down the middle. I feared the second shot, but it was a pretty good one - it just rolled past the green, though, leaving a tricky up-and-down.

Watson finally flinched on his third shot, leaving it 8 feet by. It was brutal watching that par putt, knowing that even the great Watson wasn't going to close the deal.

The four-hole playoff against Stewart Cink was just the bloodbath one would have expected after a bogey that Watson later said "tore my guts out." Cink won the playoff by 6 shots.


I don't think I've ever watched a sporting event that felt more like a movie than that Open Championship. If I saw a similar movie in theaters, I would criticize it as being too far-fetched even by Hollywood's standards.
   42. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: December 06, 2017 at 05:26 PM (#5587653)
I was mentally worn out at the end of that Open, right up there with one of my teams going out of the playoffs on a gut-wrenching home loss in Game 7 and the like.

Second shot was actually pretty damn good, hit the green about pin high maybe 15 feet away but the green was rock hard and it rolled over into pretty deep rough. Third shot was pretty good, though it slid 8 feet by. There was no way he was making the par putt (*), and he didn't come close. The next time someone tries to tell you major league baseball players don't feel it in big at-bats and never tighten up, just cite that putt.

The thing that really sucked about it is that Cink is kind of unlikable, at least to me and some friends, and he sunk a long putt on 17 or 18 to get to the clubhouse with his number that he never would have made if he knew he had to. Watson was toast for the playoff. Sigh.

(*) Watson's putting started going pretty badly south in his late 30s (maybe even earlier), even though he remained a great ball striker. At 59, there was no way he was making a tricky 8 footer to win a major. He wouldn't have made it at 37.
   43. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili (TeddyF.Ballgame) Posted: December 06, 2017 at 05:52 PM (#5587672)
Infielder Ron Washington of West Palm Beach was the league's big offensive star, hitting .359 with a league leading 73 RBIs.


I misread that at first as Herb Washington. Which would have been amazing in an "Ichiro could have been a home run champ if he wanted to" kind of way.
   44. phredbird Posted: December 06, 2017 at 05:55 PM (#5587675)
Appropriately enough, Steve Kerr is the best ex-player I've heard on this subject (appropriately, for you non-NBA fans, because he was a player on the Jordan Bulls and now coaches the Warriors). The first thing he mentions is the change in rules/style of play which makes the comparison almost impossible, and then he talks about how difficult it would be to cover Jordan and how difficult it would have been for the 90s Bulls to defend Curry/Durant.


i don't really follow the NBA (or NFL, or college anything) anymore ... there's too much to do and so over the years i have shifted my sports focus almost entirely on baseball, then maybe watch some of world cup and olympics when they come up.

so ... i'm genuinely curious. i have seen snippets of the warriors and cavs in the finals in recent years and can't figure out what's different about the NBA now. what is kerr's analysis? what are these rule changes he mentions? the differences between the 90s bulls and todays champions are really that great that they can't be compared? why? how is the game so different? i've noticed that a big center doesn't seem so important anymore. why? what else is different?

anybody?
   45. Khrushin it bro Posted: December 06, 2017 at 06:41 PM (#5587694)
They call fouls for barely touching the guy rather than blatant hacks. The taller guys are now skinnier and can shoot 3's and make 80% or more of their free throws. Today's teams seem to run the ball up and down the court a lot faster than they used to as well so slow 7 foot centers wouldn't keep up. Today's teams might have gotten pretty beat up with the older rules.
   46. T.J. Posted: December 06, 2017 at 06:46 PM (#5587700)
I'm no expert, but that doesn't stop me from making an educated guess:

Hand checking is called a lot more often now, as noted above. On the other hand, you can double-team a player now, when you basically couldn't back in Jordan's day. Jordan could get the ball, isolate on the defender, dribble for 18 seconds, then drive right past him. Can't really do that now, as a double-team will come. Defenses can be more creative now than they used to.
   47. Howie Menckel Posted: December 06, 2017 at 06:48 PM (#5587703)
if you can find a Knicks-Heat playoff game from the mid/late 1990s, that's the pinnacle/nadir. sometimes neither team could score 70 points in the game. "let 'em play" was an understatement.
   48. Khrushin it bro Posted: December 06, 2017 at 06:59 PM (#5587712)
Plus every joe shmoe rookie has a shoe line, obnoxious dad, international criminal little brother and a youngest brother who might be the best of them all.
   49. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: December 06, 2017 at 08:07 PM (#5587754)
They also permit zone defenses now. That encourages teams to find guys capable of hitting the open 3.
   50. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: December 06, 2017 at 09:23 PM (#5587772)
90s bulls and todays champions


Yet no one is discussing the most exciting team of all: the 80's showtime Lakers with Magic, Worthy, Scott, Wilkes, Jabbar along with a host of amazing bench players like McAdoo, Rambus, etc.

Listen to some Chick Hearn doing the play by play when they were on song, it was glorious. The pinnacle of running basketball.

Not sure how they would've fared against today's teams, but they would've managed to score a bit and had a few guys on the other side of the ball that could flat out defend.
   51. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 06, 2017 at 10:03 PM (#5587781)
I don't think I've ever watched a sporting event that felt more like a movie than that Open Championship. If I saw a similar movie in theaters, I would criticize it as being too far-fetched even by Hollywood's standards.


My standard for "this would only happen in a movie, and I still wouldn't believe it" is Kirk Gibson's 1988 World Series Game 1 home run, and 2012 English Premier title won by Manchester City by scoring two goals in extra time to win the game and beat their arch-rivals for the title. The first one I didn't see when it happened, but the second one I was watching on TV as it went down and it was insane (considering I had no real cheering interest at the time).

If Watson had somehow, someway, pulled off that win at the Open, that would have topped Gibson's moment (and made ManCity's moment an also-ran when it happened).
   52. Rob_Wood Posted: December 06, 2017 at 10:07 PM (#5587784)
To echo Howie's and others' great points about basketball in the mid-90's, here are the game scores from three Finals series from that era (every game, no tricky sample selection):

1994
85-75
91-83
93-89
91-82
91-84
86-84
90-84

1997
84-82
97-85
104-93 (hey, how did this game get in here??)
78-73 (that's more like it)
90-88
90-86

1998
88-85
93-88
96-54 (not a typo)
86-82
83-81
87-86

Dear Lord almighty. And only one of these series involved the Knicks or the Heat!

   53. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 06, 2017 at 10:10 PM (#5587786)
Thanks for making me relive that 72nd hole of Tom Watson's. Few sporting events had me pulling harder for an outcome than that one. The second shot was as described, very good, but as with so many approaches at the Open, all about the bounce(s). It was if the whole world knew it came down to that (3rd shot) chip from behind the green. I was kind of glad that the guy he lost to was a rather forgettable journeyman (plenty of nice paychecks) like Cink, who I don't remember ever seeing on a major leaderboard since that Open. I thought he was an alright guy. We all remember Watson's effort, only golf nerds remember Cink being the winner.

Was there ever a better bad weather golfer on earth than Tom Watson? I couldn't name one better. I know we all pretended we were him during winter time rounds in Wisconsin where you can't stick a tee into the ground.
   54. Howie Menckel Posted: December 06, 2017 at 10:18 PM (#5587789)
in 1999-2000, the Knicks-Heat series had these scores:

Date Opponent Tm Opp W L
Sun, May 7, 2000 @ Miami Heat L 83 87
Tue, May 9, 2000 @ Miami Heat W 82 76
Fri, May 12, 2000 Miami Heat L OT 76 77
Sun, May 14, 2000 Miami Heat W 91 83
Wed, May 17, 2000 @ Miami Heat L 81 87
Fri, May 19, 2000 Miami Heat W 72 70
Sun, May 21, 2000 @ Miami Heat W 83 82
   55. Brian C Posted: December 06, 2017 at 11:06 PM (#5587810)
Fun and unbelievably somehow true fact: During the Bulls' first Finals in 1991, as a team they only made 5 3-pointers over 5 games.
   56. stevegamer Posted: December 07, 2017 at 02:38 AM (#5587833)
Well, that one's easy -- because golfers over 50 can and do still win main tour events whereas 50 year old baseball players ... well, yeah.


yeah ... unless they were Satchel Paige. If I could travel back in time to see anybody play, it'd be him.
   57. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 07, 2017 at 07:55 AM (#5587851)
Fun and unbelievably somehow true fact: During the Bulls' first Finals in 1991, as a team they only made 5 3-pointers over 5 games.


And in game 1 in 1992, Jordan made 6.
   58. Lassus Posted: December 07, 2017 at 08:25 AM (#5587857)
Thanks for making me relive that 72nd hole of Tom Watson's. Few sporting events had me pulling harder for an outcome than that one.

God, that was the worst.
   59. manchestermets Posted: December 07, 2017 at 08:36 AM (#5587858)
There are a ton of guys who barely can't hang on at age 35 in MLB that would be fun to watch. Also guys with crazy tools but flaws in their game (guy that throws 100 mph or hits the ball 500 feet) would be entertaining when not getting picked apart by the best talent in the world.


Mo Vaughn comes to mind here. He was still hitting an occasional ball miles in his dying days with the Mets when he could do virtually nothing else.
   60. Ishmael Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:34 AM (#5587873)
Wrong thread.
   61. Rally Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:38 AM (#5587876)
On the GSW playing against the champions of the past, I don't think there was ever a team that could beat them given the rules the NBA plays under right now.

If you have them travel back in time to the 80s or 90s I think they would still beat the best of the Lakers, Celtics, or Bulls. Bulls would probably have the best chance at stopping them because it's hard to imagine better perimeter defense than a team with Jordan, Rodman, and Pippen. But Steve Kerr, as a bench player, would not be able to keep up with the 3 point shooting, especially since he'd be distracted by his future self coaching the other team.

What you could do to beat the Warriors is erase the 3 point line. It hurts them big time, but has only minimal impact on the others. Bird was a great 3 point shooter for his day, but from 1981 to 1984 he took a total of 71 3 pointers in 317 games. His 1981 champions made only 65 3 pointers all season. That's what, a month of Steph Curry? Bird made only 3 from beyond in 17 playoff games. Take away the 3 and they'll shrug, then dump the ball into the low post for another high percentage basket from Parish or McHale.

With the Lakers it's even more extreme. From 1980-83 they made the following totals of 3 pointers, by year: 20,17,13,10. These were probably just last second heaves, since their accuracy was less than 20%. These teams had the equivalent of a nuclear weapon in the 3 point line but had no capacity to actually deliver it. They would have been toast if a team came out of nowhere with the strategy and ability to exploit the fact that 3 > 2, but if you made the Warriors play the same game the Lakers and Celtics were playing the old guys would certainly hold their own, and might end up winning.
   62. kwarren Posted: December 07, 2017 at 03:46 PM (#5588247)
I don't think I've ever watched a sporting event that felt more like a movie than that Open Championship. If I saw a similar movie in theaters, I would criticize it as being too far-fetched even by Hollywood's standards.

I believe that in the movie version, Watson makes the putt. That was truly unbelievable to watch. I bet Watson treasures his play that week more than any of his championships, at least the first 71 holes and two shots.

   63. Robert S. Posted: December 07, 2017 at 06:20 PM (#5588356)
On the GSW playing against the champions of the past, I don't think there was ever a team that could beat them given the rules the NBA plays under right now.

If you have them travel back in time to the 80s or 90s I think they would still beat the best of the Lakers, Celtics, or Bulls. Bulls would probably have the best chance at stopping them because it's hard to imagine better perimeter defense than a team with Jordan, Rodman, and Pippen. But Steve Kerr, as a bench player, would not be able to keep up with the 3 point shooting, especially since he'd be distracted by his future self coaching the other team.

What you could do to beat the Warriors is erase the 3 point line. It hurts them big time, but has only minimal impact on the others. Bird was a great 3 point shooter for his day, but from 1981 to 1984 he took a total of 71 3 pointers in 317 games. His 1981 champions made only 65 3 pointers all season. That's what, a month of Steph Curry? Bird made only 3 from beyond in 17 playoff games. Take away the 3 and they'll shrug, then dump the ball into the low post for another high percentage basket from Parish or McHale.

With the Lakers it's even more extreme. From 1980-83 they made the following totals of 3 pointers, by year: 20,17,13,10. These were probably just last second heaves, since their accuracy was less than 20%. These teams had the equivalent of a nuclear weapon in the 3 point line but had no capacity to actually deliver it. They would have been toast if a team came out of nowhere with the strategy and ability to exploit the fact that 3 > 2, but if you made the Warriors play the same game the Lakers and Celtics were playing the old guys would certainly hold their own, and might end up winning.

Even if you just dumped the contemporary Warriors back in time and limited them to the strategies and tactics of the day, I'd still take them in a walk over the Bulls, Celtics, or Lakers. The Warriors have built their skills and stamina against defenders that couldn't rely on brute force, they're playing against much smarter defensive schemes, they're running a more taxing motion offense, they're playing against other motion offenses, etc. The past teams would be gassed by the 4th and totally unprepared for versatile defenders that could switch like the Warriors. I'm not convinced that McHale or Parish would look so great against Draymond and Durant, particularly after three quarters of guarding them.

Teams can't effectively defend Curry or Durant now. Their respective skillsets are even bigger outliers relative to the league the further back in time you take them. Even in those older offenses, they're still streching the defense further than they've ever encountered.
   64. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2017 at 07:55 PM (#5588392)
I'm pleasantly surprised that so many BBTFers posted about watching that Watson Open effort.

it's an example of the "that's the most boring sport ever" tired cliche. anyone who is human and clued in to the impossibility of the attempt - and the closeness of pulling it off - could have been drawn in by that final hole. I'd say the same for any sport, including some I've never seen.

Nicklaus's Masters win in 1986 (at age 46) - his final win in a Major - is another example. he seems to be out of contention in the final round, but a hot streak has thousands of spectators scrambling across the golf course to get a peek. the roars were so loud that rivals could hear it from holes away - and they all knew if could only be another Golden Bear birdie.

after going 7-under par in the last 10 holes, Nicklaus walked off the green with his caddie, arms around his shoulders. oh, that caddie also is his son.....
   65. PreservedFish Posted: December 07, 2017 at 08:30 PM (#5588416)
Even if you just dumped the contemporary Warriors back in time and limited them to the strategies and tactics of the day, I'd still take them in a walk over the Bulls, Celtics, or Lakers.


A walk?


Teams can't effectively defend Curry or Durant now. Their respective skillsets are even bigger outliers relative to the league the further back in time you take them. Even in those older offenses, they're still streching the defense further than they've ever encountered.


If they basically never shoot threes? Come on. Durant is a stud in any era. But there's no telling what Curry would be if the three-point shot wasn't a thing. He might reinvent his game and still be exceptional. But he might be, like, Mark Price.
   66. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:53 PM (#5588474)

there have been a handful of players age 50-53, true, in regular PA Tour events.


But when is the last time one won? SBB is talking out of his butt...again. Seniors are the longest of longshots on the regular tour. No Senior won this year on the regular tour. Or last year. Vijay may have won fairly recently (2015?), but I'm not checking. His comment is ridiculous "they can and do". They can, I guess, but they don't "do" very often. Once in a blue moon. In a weak field. Maybe.
   67. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:22 PM (#5588505)
yes, Davis Love III won in 2015 at age 51
Fred Funk won in 2007 and Craig Stadler in 2003, both at age 50

but those are the only ones since 1975

I'd split the baby - "can and do" is an overbid, but I think the context also is if they "can"

Vijay Singh at age 54 was 2 shots off the lead in the Canadian Open in July entering the final round, and that's hardly the first time he has strongly contended as a "senior"

   68. Morty Causa Posted: December 08, 2017 at 02:23 AM (#5588561)
My first impression was that he was going to try to make a comeback as a knuckleballer.
   69. Rally Posted: December 08, 2017 at 07:41 AM (#5588582)
If they basically never shoot threes? Come on. Durant is a stud in any era. But there's no telling what Curry would be if the three-point shot wasn't a thing. He might reinvent his game and still be exceptional. But he might be, like, Mark Price.


Mark Price shot a lot of 3 pointers. Not as much as Curry, nobody ever did, but several years of 100+ 3 pointers made. Take away the 3 point line and Curry is a volume scorer, not an efficient one. He'd probably have stats that look like Pete Maravich. Sure, he'd try to change his game to adapt, but so would the defense. He is able to drive to the hoop right now because teams have to defend him at the 3 point line. With no line they can play back.

I did get a chuckle from the idea that any team could wear down the Showtime Lakers. They kind of liked to run.
   70. RMc's Unenviable Situation Posted: December 08, 2017 at 09:37 AM (#5588644)
Do it! Now, I won't have to be older than every major leaguer (which has been the case since Jamie Moyer retired in 2012)!

Fun fact: Moyer was one of the three oldest players in MLB for a decade (2003-12)!
   71. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 09:48 AM (#5588652)
Big deal. Julio Franco was the oldest player for like 40 years.
   72. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: December 08, 2017 at 10:14 AM (#5588672)
Here are the 7 times in the history of the PGA that a 50 year old won an event.

https://www.thoughtco.com/oldest-pga-tour-winners-1565927

THE LIST: PGA TOUR WINNERS AGED 50 AND OVER
Here is the full list of seven PGA Tour winners over the age of 50:

Sam Snead - 52 years, 10 months, 8 days, 1965 Greater Greensboro Open
Art Wall - 51 years, 7 months, 10 days, 1975 Greater Milwaukee Open
Davis Love III - 51 years, 4 months, 2015 Wyndham Championship
Jim Barnes - 51 years, 3 months, 7 days, 1937 Long Island Open
John Barnum - 51 years, 1 month, 5 days, 1962 Cajun Classic
Fred Funk - 50 years, 8 months, 12 days, 2007 Mayakoba Golf Classic
Craig Stadler - 50 years, 1 month, 18 days, 2003 B.C. Open
   73. Greg Pope Posted: December 08, 2017 at 12:25 PM (#5588796)
Here are the 7 times in the history of the PGA that a 50 year old won an event.

For those of us who don't follow, what's the denominator here? How many PGA Tour events are there in a given year?
   74. Greg Pope Posted: December 08, 2017 at 12:28 PM (#5588799)
These teams had the equivalent of a nuclear weapon in the 3 point line but had no capacity to actually deliver it.

No capacity, or no willingness? All of this discussion is like pre- and post-1920 baseball. Nobody was really trying for home runs before Ruth. But once Ruth did it, others did, too.

You can't really say that the older teams weren't capable, all you can say is that it wasn't a big part of their strategy.
   75. Rob_Wood Posted: December 08, 2017 at 01:20 PM (#5588829)
Yes, I remember when the NBA was planning on introducing the 3-point line in the late 1970's. Most people thought it was a "gimmick" and several traditional members of the NBA community basically said that it would not change the game at all and they were not planning on making it any part of their offensive strategies.

I remember Rick Barry being one of the few people saying that the 3-point shot is very exciting, opens up the offense, spreads the floor, and will change the game based upon his years in the ABA. He was at the tail end of his career but I think he was among the league leaders in the first year but, of course, at a far lesser amount than we see in the neo-modern game.
   76. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: December 08, 2017 at 01:48 PM (#5588859)
How many PGA Tour events are there in a given year?


My count for 2017 is 47.
   77. Robert S. Posted: December 08, 2017 at 02:23 PM (#5588894)
A walk?

Yes. Independent of era, I think the Warriors out-talent them. All things being equal, I also think a .280/.330/.470 hitter in 2017 is likely a notably better hitter than the guy producing the same slash line 30 or 40 years ago. The modern hitter has spent his entire development against much better pitchers and scouting. The Warriors are playing against far better players on a nightly basis and against teams that are far more able to exploit weaknesses. I think their advantage becomes even more pronounced when it comes to their bench.

If they basically never shoot threes? Come on. Durant is a stud in any era. But there's no telling what Curry would be if the three-point shot wasn't a thing. He might reinvent his game and still be exceptional. But he might be, like, Mark Price.

I think you're underselling Durant. He's unguardable now and would terrorize a league where guys like Luc Longley are starters and playing ~25 minutes a night for the best team. His relative advantages only increase the further back he goes in time.

Curry has a great handle, is an excellent finisher around the rim, has a creative floater game, and can score from spots that no past teams are used to defending. Mark Price had a fraction of Curry's offensive skillset and was an All-Star. That tells you a lot about the level of competition.
   78. Robert S. Posted: December 08, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5588914)
Mark Price shot a lot of 3 pointers. Not as much as Curry, nobody ever did, but several years of 100+ 3 pointers made. Take away the 3 point line and Curry is a volume scorer, not an efficient one. He'd probably have stats that look like Pete Maravich. Sure, he'd try to change his game to adapt, but so would the defense. He is able to drive to the hoop right now because teams have to defend him at the 3 point line. With no line they can play back

Iverson's a volume scorer. Curry's the best shooter ever. He'd probably be a more offense-centric version of Steve Nash.

Teams are still going to have to defend him because he can score from anywhere and can create opportunities off the dribble for Durant. Past teams aren't going to handwave long 2-pointers the way teams do today, either. I also think Curry's distribution would be even more impactful against past teams because their defensive schemes are much easier for him to exploit than what he plays against every night. It's not like teams just ignored Kidd or Stockton because they weren't scoring a ton on a given night.

I did get a chuckle from the idea that any team could wear down the Showtime Lakers. They kind of liked to run.

And how much defensive energy did those Lakers have to expend on a given night? How many possessions did Kareem or Worthy spend defending guys like Draymond or Durant that would be taking them off the dribble 20 feet out?
   79. Rally Posted: December 08, 2017 at 02:54 PM (#5588920)
No capacity, or no willingness? All of this discussion is like pre- and post-1920 baseball. Nobody was really trying for home runs before Ruth. But once Ruth did it, others did, too.


I think it's a little bit of both. Look at league 3 point percentages for the first few years of the league - they are under 30% until 1986-87. There is the problem of not knowing how many of those were last second desperation heaves, but it is likely that in the early years the math just didn't work out. You could get more points on average by playing for the 2 point shot than by looking for the three. The 3 pointer would be more of a strategic move - if you were down 3 with the game about to end you can't settle for a 2.

Once the league accuracy crept up past 33% it makes just as much sense to go for a three than a two, and at that point teams made it a bigger part of their offense. I think what the NBA needed to get to that point was a group of athletes who grew up with a 3 point shot and were comfortable taking it.

I look at a guy like Randy Wittman, who was exactly the type of player you'd expect to be a 3 point shooter today. He was a below average athlete by NBA standards, couldn't create his own shot, but was a consistent shooter. On the Hawks Doc Rivers started the offense and Dominique Wilkins was the focus. When he was double teamed they would get the ball to Wittman for a 15 footer. He was very good at that job, but for his 9 year career he only attempted 53 3 pointers, making 17 of them. Wittman entered the league in 83-84, a few years into the 3 point era, but probably did not grow up shooting from that distance. I have no doubt that if the same exact player grew up 30 years later, he would end up as a J.J. Redick type 3 point specialist.
   80. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: December 08, 2017 at 05:30 PM (#5589049)
67...not to belabor, but if you do the math (42 years times 40 PGA events per = 1680, 3 winners = .0017 percent), it seems like the seniors can't and don't win on the regular tour.

I was out playing golf with a bunch of seniors today. Last day for a while, I bet.
   81. Howie Menckel Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:07 PM (#5589101)
they didn't win at all for three decades, then 3 times in 15 years.

so yes, seniors almost never win on the regular Tour. but they are contending more and more often, and that figures to continue given the diet and workout science of modern players. I think the overall point was that they can be competitive at age 50, and sometimes are - much moreso than in the big team sports. but "do win," as I said, indeed was an overbid.
   82. Joe Bivens Will Take a Steaming Dump Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:36 PM (#5589115)
3 wins in 15 years increases the % to .005 from .0017

Edit...once in a great while a geezer will crack the top ten, and the reaction is always "wow, a geezer cracked the top ten".

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy seeing Boom Boom do well at the Masters, but it's a sideshow. A senior may fluke his way into a tour victory now and then but I don't see it ever happening and it not being a huge upset. The same training methods that keep seniors competitive are used by the young guys, too, so they remain that much ahead.
   83. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:59 PM (#5589119)
"Hey this old guy hit a tiny ball well!"

George Foreman was knocking elite fighters unconscious into his mid-40s. Go find someone else to impress with your tales of tiddlywinks.

   84. Jay Z Posted: December 08, 2017 at 09:06 PM (#5589122)
they didn't win at all for three decades, then 3 times in 15 years.

so yes, seniors almost never win on the regular Tour. but they are contending more and more often, and that figures to continue given the diet and workout science of modern players. I think the overall point was that they can be competitive at age 50, and sometimes are - much moreso than in the big team sports. but "do win," as I said, indeed was an overbid.


Before the drought, seniors won 3 times in 14 years... seems more likely it's random clustering.
   85. PreservedFish Posted: December 08, 2017 at 09:08 PM (#5589124)
67...not to belabor, but if you do the math (42 years times 40 PGA events per = 1680, 3 winners = .0017 percent), it seems like the seniors can't and don't win on the regular tour.


If baseball were somehow configured to allow 50 year olds a chance, I suspect that .0017% of the time you would get a 53-year old hitting 3 homers or pitching a shutout or something.
   86. cardsfanboy Posted: December 08, 2017 at 10:19 PM (#5589141)
I'm not a fan of this thread of comparing golf to baseball, they are radically different sports with different rules and concepts that it makes very little sense... Baseball is a game with a team win and loss(and I'll be probably the only person on here who argues it's still mostly an individual sport), golf is a game in which people are competing for a prize that is paid out for 50 or more spots. It's a true individual sport(in comparison I think of baseball as a pseudo individual sport, in which doing well for yourself more often helps the team, in comparison to the "true" team sports ---we'll call goal sports(hockey, basketball, football, soccer)---where there is a bit more involved in team success than individual success...)


It doesn't matter if the 50 year old wins or loses the tournament, it matters if he is able to compete, and in golf that happens often enough, and it's set up, that even if it didn't, it doesn't hurt to include the old guys for a couple of days.
   87. Swoboda is freedom Posted: December 09, 2017 at 01:22 PM (#5589298)

If baseball were somehow configured to allow 50 year olds a chance, I suspect that .0017% of the time you would get a 53-year old hitting 3 homers or pitching a shutout or something.


I heard Jeff Nelson (relief pitcher for Yanks and Seattle) interviewed on the radio a few years back. He had just pitched at a fantasy camp. The interviewer said that he could still bring it. Nelson who was in his late 40s, said he could still throw 90. But only for a day or so. Then he said it would start to hurt and he would get injured.
   88. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 09, 2017 at 02:31 PM (#5589330)
If baseball were somehow configured to allow 50 year olds a chance


Hmm, maybe you could shorten the distance between the bases, bring the fences in, use a bigger ball, and make pitchers toss it underhanded.
   89. John DiFool2 Posted: December 09, 2017 at 07:18 PM (#5589422)
Once the league accuracy crept up past 33% it makes just as much sense to go for a three than a two, and at that point teams made it a bigger part of their offense.


I don't think that is strictly true, because the extra misses on the treys will lead to extra possessions by the opposition when they get the rebound. The actual break-even point may be ~40.
   90. McCoy Posted: December 10, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5589589)
Re 33

I disagree. Back in the day somebody would have cheapshotted the QB and that would have been all she wrote.
   91. Hysterical & Useless Posted: December 10, 2017 at 02:51 PM (#5589590)
Hmm, maybe you could shorten the distance between the bases, bring the fences in, use a bigger ball, and make pitchers toss it underhanded.


Doesn't seem to help, we try it every summer and we still look like pasty-faced old farts.
   92. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 10, 2017 at 07:09 PM (#5589702)

Yes. Independent of era, I think the Warriors out-talent them. All things being equal, I also think a .280/.330/.470 hitter in 2017 is likely a notably better hitter than the guy producing the same slash line 30 or 40 years ago.


Julio Franco hit .273/.306/.388 at 24 and then .273/.330/.370 at 47. That's 23 years, or a majority of your 30-40 year span. Was he a notably better hitter at 47 than he was at 24? How was that possible, assuming pitchers were improving at the rate you imply?
   93. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 10, 2017 at 07:26 PM (#5589709)
#87:
I heard Jeff Nelson (relief pitcher for Yanks and Seattle) interviewed on the radio a few years back. He had just pitched at a fantasy camp. The interviewer said that he could still bring it. Nelson who was in his late 40s, said he could still throw 90. But only for a day or so. Then he said it would start to hurt and he would get injured.


Well, obviously. The tailend of Nelson's followthrough saw him brushing or tapping his own crotch on 80% to 90% of his pitches. (I bless the 1990s friend who called this to my attention.) So as time passes and Nelson's old man balls continue to droop, his finish point moves downward, thus increasing the stress on his shoulder and inviting injury. That's just Scouting 101.

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