I should have known that much of the ensuing discussion would not necessarily be rational, or even based upon what I actually wrote.

Well, here we are, getting ready for a new season, and the subject is worth revisiting.

Muck, meet Rake.

But it’s important to keep talking about race, particularly in a sport that faces dwindling numbers of African-American players.

This is not a race issue. If anything it's a national orgin issue, and even then it's an intersection.

There are plenty of "black" players in MLB, and there are plenty of American-born players. There just happen to be fewer American-born "black" players (although the percentage is not that out of line with the "black" % of the U.S, population).

Basically, an over-representation that occurred in the '60's and '70's has ceased.

Basically, an over-representation that occurred in the '60's and '70's has ceased.

How different is the % of black players of the total % of all MLB players who are US born nowadays from the 60's-70's?

How different is the % of black players of the total % of all MLB players who are US born nowadays from the 60's-70's?

Just going from memory here. I think the league was about 25% American-born black players at the peak, and the league was almost all US born. Today the league is about 8% black Americans and the total US born is probably about 65%. So, probably 12-14% of US born players are black.

But it’s important to keep talking about race,

No, it isn't.

I would like to play the race card card card card and save us the trouble.

Being an Ashkenazi-American, I have a passing interest in my fellow Jews who had enough talent to make it to the majors. I understand why many African-Americans take an interest in their fellow blacks who are great at baseball. I imagine there is Bohemian rhapsody when a player with Czech heritage checks into the Show.

But I don't care about representatives of other tribes in today's game (as representatives) and don't think others should care about members of my tribe being in the game. They are just players to me. They are loved or loathed far more for their laundry and their stats than they are for their ancestry.

If a certain ethnic group, say Samoans, is underrepresented relative to their percentage of the total population in baseball, that really should not concern anyone else. No one is discriminating against them based on their heritage. But if it does concern Samoans, because they think the "problem" is one they can fix, then they should set out to fix it (say by investing more in youth baseball programs). Playing the race card is a canard of an empty color.

Being an Ashkenazi-American, I have a passing interest in my fellow Jews who had enough talent to make it to the majors. I understand why many African-Americans take an interest in their fellow blacks who are great at baseball. I imagine there is Bohemian rhapsody when a player with Czech heritage checks into the Show.

But I don't care about representatives of other tribes in today's game (as representatives) and don't think others should care about members of my tribe being in the game. They are just players to me. They are loved or loathed far more for their laundry and their stats than they are for their ancestry.

If a certain ethnic group, say Samoans, is underrepresented relative to their percentage of the total population in baseball, that really should not concern anyone else. No one is discriminating against them based on their heritage. But if it does concern Samoans, because they think the "problem" is one they can fix, then they should set out to fix it (say by investing more in youth baseball programs).

Well put.

#4-thanks.

I don't really care about the representation of any ethnic group in the major leagues other than how it reflects exposure to/interest in baseball of those groups as a whole. I do care (and so should MLB) if large numbers of various ethnic groups are not having appropriate opportunities to play baseball as children. I care because baseball is the best of all things, and I want as many Americans (and non-Americans) exposed to it as posssible. MLB should care because it's probably easier to create the next generation of baseball fans if they've been baseball players in the past.

In a couple more years, maybe Rosenthal will have another data point to change his view again.

Hey vi, how about filling us in on your list on the stadium thread yesterday?

Sweet. Some Ken Rosenthal navel-gazing. I think I know what the first paragraph is trying to say, but it sounds like he's saying he was trying to convince AA players to not go to the Sox.

But it’s important to keep talking about race, particularly in a sport that faces dwindling numbers of African-American players.

What's being done to attract more white players to pro-basketball and more black drivers to NASCAR?

What's being done to attract more white players to pro-basketball and more black drivers to NASCAR?

Black people are too smart to get mixed up with NASCAR. Low representation in that field is clear evidence of racial superiority.

What's being done to attract more white players to pro-basketball and more black drivers to NASCAR?

This.

I´m mostly just thrilled Repoz introed the way he did.

After spending a couple years in Milwaukee, Cameron is likely to find Boston a very non-racist place.

"What's being done to attract more .... black drivers to NASCAR?"

This. And of course this. And finally this.

Brad Daugherty's North Carolinaness overrides everything else when it comes to NASCAR. People down here are nuts for that garbage.

If a certain ethnic group, say Samoans, is underrepresented relative to their percentage of the total population in baseball, that really should not concern anyone else.

That's because they're playing football. "There are approximately 500,000 Samoans in the world, only half of whom come in contact with American football. Yet nearly 200 play Division I college football. Every Pac-10 team except Stanford will have at least one Samoan player this year. Samoans are in the starting lineups of programs as diverse as Nebraska, Michigan State, BYU and Idaho.

More than 20 Samoans play in the NFL. Six were born in American Samoa, population 63,000."

People of Polynesian descent are also over-represented in sumo, as I recall.

I try to treat everyone the same — my kids, parents, grandparents, the guy on the street.

I feel bad for his kids.

The most impressive part of the article is that, "A white-power Web site trumpeted the column." Not sure this happens that often with people named Rosenthal.

Can't understand why this is an issue, though it usually seems to bother white sportwriters more than anyone else. Blacks have made the conscious decision to channel their efforts into basketball and football. As long as there's equal opportunity, what's wrong with that?

snapper

not sure why we keep having this discussion

"black" means people who were born and raised (mostly) in america or who have american parents (like born on an army base in a foreign country like stephen randolph or dave roberts) who have visible Negro ancestry and that/those ancestors are/were descended from american slaves

it does not mean - people from anyplace on this planet who have Negro ancestry and are dark enough that they would have been banned from MLB before 1947. so we are not saying that david ortiz (for example) is not Negro, we are saying that he is not an american born Black man.

some of us are concerned that baseball has become a game for people with money because little league ends when the kids are 12 (and good luck getting kids to that in a lot of places) and then they need to go to travel teams if they want to succeed. and lots of hs don't have baseball teams. and that there aren't a lot of places left to play baseball. it's NOT - well, won't nobody LET us play

i'm tired of the - well, They WANT to play basketball and football instead. so what?

snapper

not sure why we keep having this discussion

"black" means people who were born and raised (mostly) in america or who have american parents (like born on an army base in a foreign country like stephen randolph or dave roberts) who have visible Negro ancestry and that/those ancestors are/were descended from american slaves

it does not mean - people from anyplace on this planet who have Negro ancestry and are dark enough that they would have been banned from MLB before 1947. so we are not saying that david ortiz (for example) is not Negro, we are saying that he is not an american born Black man.

Really? So, if David Ortiz's parents moved here when he was 5, or before he was born, does he become "black"?

I'v honestly never heard "black" used that way. I've never heard it suggested that someone of Negro ancestry is not black, b/c they were born in Jamaica or Africa. I've always understood black and white to refer to skin color. Ortiz is not an american born Black man, but most people would certainly consider him a black man.

some of us are concerned that baseball has become a game for people with money because little league ends when the kids are 12 (and good luck getting kids to that in a lot of places) and then they need to go to travel teams if they want to succeed. and lots of hs don't have baseball teams. and that there aren't a lot of places left to play baseball. it's NOT - well, won't nobody LET us play

That's a great point, but it's a class point, not a race point. Poor urban white or hispanic kids face the same barriers. (I'd guess it's less of an issue for rural kids, b/c they don't need organized ball as much.)

Why not pitch it as "let's make sure all kids have the opportunity to play baseball" even if they're poor or live in the city? Why make race a part of it?

Hey vi, how about filling us in on your list on the stadium thread yesterday?

Alphabetical, if you drop the first two letters.

snapper

i would very much like it if there was a word (besides Black) that means person who has ancestors who were american Negro slaves. (because yes i know that there was slaves of other colors/ethnicities)

but there isn't

and this is why there is all the shtt when people talk about "blacks" in baseball

and if david ortiz moved here when he was 5, then no he would not be "black" meaning descended from american Black slaves.

it is why lots of us say that obama is not "black" even though his father was a Negro from kenya. OBVIOUSLY, obama has black ancestry. but not in the way that we mean it.

and i agree 100% with you about the class thingy. and would LOVE it if it was pitched that all kids (INCLUDING FEMALES!!!!!!!!) should have the opportunity to play baseball. i personally would love it if race weren't a part of it. i personally would love it if judging whatever based on color wasn't a part of life.

some of us are concerned that baseball has become a game for people with money because little league ends when the kids are 12 (and good luck getting kids to that in a lot of places) and then they need to go to travel teams if they want to succeed. and lots of hs don't have baseball teams. and that there aren't a lot of places left to play baseball. it's NOT - well, won't nobody LET us play

You're correct about little league ending at 12, having to go to travel and some HS teams not having baseball teams. I've had to spend a small fortune for the last few years on travel baseball and we have to resort to fund-raising to try to cover the costs. But here's the thing, it's not an absolute right for my son to get to play baseball and if I can't afford it while others can, (a real possibility this year,) then it sucks for me and my kid, but life isn't fair. In this (or any) economy, sports in schools are not necessities. If a district can't afford a baseball team because it needs to put whatever resources it has into the education portion of that school, then that's the way it goes. Sports is a way out for an tiny percentage of kids...the emphasis has been misplaced for years.

i'm tired of the - well, They WANT to play basketball and football instead. so what?

So what? Your argument has much more merit if it's based on systematic exclusion, which I don't believe is the case.

And, as for the financial argument, there are plenty of teams in my kid's basketball leagues that are made up in large part with minority children. (I can't figure out what's pejorative here.) These leagues are pretty damned expensive as well.

snapper

i would very much like it if there was a word (besides Black) that means person who has ancestors who were american Negro slaves. (because yes i know that there was slaves of other colors/ethnicities)

but there isn't

and this is why there is all the shtt when people talk about "blacks" in baseball

and if david ortiz moved here when he was 5, then no he would not be "black" meaning descended from american Black slaves.

it is why lots of us say that obama is not "black" even though his father was a Negro from kenya. OBVIOUSLY, obama has black ancestry. but not in the way that we mean it.

and i agree 100% with you about the class thingy. and would LOVE it if it was pitched that all kids (INCLUDING FEMALES!!!!!!!!) should have the opportunity to play baseball. i personally would love it if race weren't a part of it. i personally would love it if judging whatever based on color wasn't a part of life.

BBC,

That's a tough one to nail down. Under your description, a player of Negro-ancestry, who was born in the USA, and whose parents and grandparents were born in the USA would not be "black" if his great-grandparents came to the US from Jamaica or Nigeria in 1920.

What's the necessity of being descended from people who were slaves in the US, vs. slaves in Latin America, vs. never slaves but had equally shitty lives in Africa, in your definition? Not being snarky, trying to understand. I don't see similar distinctions (on when or how the ancestors arrived) made for other ethnic groups.

"black" means people who were born and raised (mostly) in america or who have american parents (like born on an army base in a foreign country like stephen randolph or dave roberts) who have visible Negro ancestry and that/those ancestors are/were descended from american slaves

Not that I care one way or the other, but by this definition Barack (????????) Obama is not black. He was raised mostly not in the United States, his mother had no visible Negro ancestry and his father and his father's ancestors were not descended from American slaves.

And considering the possiblity that one of my people's lost tribes may have left Sheba for East Africa, I will hereby claim that the suave, articulate, Harvard Law educated attorney named Baruch as the first Jewish president, his proclaimed Christian faith and Muslim heritage notwithstanding. ??? ???????

I see it like bc..and while I understand a lot of black folks claiming Obama as one of their own, he's not black to me, either.

it's the shared history and heritage that makes somebody a 'black american', not his skin color..and the real resistance to color-blindness is that it is so often an attempt to whitewash the legacy of slavery and racial discrimination away.

not that people can't have multiple concerns, but the percentage of blacks in the criminal justice system is the dead canary telling you there's still a huge problem in this country, not baseball participation.

'course, people are even better at explaining that one away..

not that people can't have multiple concerns, but the percentage of blacks in the criminal justice system is the dead canary telling you there's still a huge problem in this country, not baseball participation.

Sure, but that's a combination of social, economic and cultural factors. It may have something to do with the legacy of racism, but has nothing to do with direct racism. Innocent blacks aren't being convicted in large numbers. A large number of blacks are committing criminal acts, with contributing factors ranging from the lack of decent blue collar jobs to the disintegration of the nuclear family in black communities to the glorification of gansters in popular culture. These same issues are afflicting poor whites as well, in increasing numbers.

the percentage of blacks in the criminal justice system is the dead canary telling you there's still a huge problem in this country

Don't go to bed, with no price on your head
No, no, don't do it.

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time,
Yeah, don't do it.

And keep your eye on the sparrow.
When the going gets narrow.

Don't do it, don't do it.

Where can I go where the cold winds don't blow,
Now.

Well, well, well.

That's the word from the greatest glass-eyed tap dancing, Frank Sinatra-palling theme song singer in history.

and lots of hs don't have baseball teams

Really? I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, but I don't know of any high schools that don't have baseball. Then again, I've lived my entire life in southern California so that might be why.

My very small (graduating class of 60) high school in SW Arkansas didn't have a baseball team till I was a senior, back in '76-'77. (Dunno if I would've gone out for it or not if we'd had one all along, but I was really, really sick that year with Crohn's disease & lost an ungodly amount of weight.)

Obama......., he's not black to me,

Really? Well I can tell you the perception from overseas is that he most definitely considered black, or well half-black because of his Kenyan dad. The overseas perspective is this, if your ancestry is from Africa and over the years you are still say 1/4 black, then you are black. Ortiz is not black, he's from the Carribean. The black Jamaicans(and Barbados et. al.) are decendents from African slaves brought over by the British initially so they are black because of the African ancestry. If Ortiz has African heritage, hey, then he's black.

ironic that baretta did the crime but not the time..

I like this song better:

Remember that kid we beat up in college, you, me and Thompson out in front of the frat, and that hippie ran home crying to his parents?
I can't believe you got us outta that! How sweet was that?! God we were drunk, drove around all night after it with that keg in the trunk. And when the cop pulled us over, you talked us outta that too.

You got away with it
You always do.

it's much harder to get away with it when you're black..

Ortiz is not black, he's from the Carribean. ... If Ortiz has African heritage, hey, then he's black.

That really clears things up.

That really clears things up.

Sure it does. If he can trace his ancestry back to the African slaves brought over by the British, then sure he's black. You know there were people in the Carribean before the British and the African slaves got there....and well Rich, they aren't considered black. How hard is that to understand?

You know there were people in the Carribean before the British and the African slaves got there....and well Rich, they aren't considered black.

The Arawakc, they all died, mostly from disease. There is literally no native population left on the Caribbean islands.

What's the necessity of being descended from people who were slaves in the US, vs. slaves in Latin America, vs. never slaves but had equally shitty lives in Africa, in your definition? Not being snarky, trying to understand. I don't see similar distinctions (on when or how the ancestors arrived) made for other ethnic groups.

I'm equally perplexed. Why is the fact that some of Ortiz's ancestors were African-descended slaves working on plantations in the Caribbean while, say, some of Barry Bonds's ancestors were African-descended slaves working on plantations in the mainland US a crucial distinction in their "blackness"?

Obviously there are important cultural distinctions between Latin Americans and US-born Americans (of all races), and thus obviously Ortiz and Bonds come from different cultures. But racially, I don't understand how one is any more or less black than the other.

The Red Sox probably have more Japanese than African Americans.

When I have sex with my white wife and have some of my best friends who are white over to my house, but not to marry my daughter, I don't see white, black, yellow or purple people, I just see people. I'm color blind AND color stupid.

I don't believe there's any more overt racism because if there was I would know about it. Sure, it could be passing my field of vision because I'm not targeted by it, but nah... And I can find one example of one time where some person of color was treated well, or some white guy got the shaft, so that proofs there's no such problems.

I wish people would just stop talking about race and H1M1 flu<--racist and Seinfeld because things that suck and we don't talk about immediately cease to affect the world or exist at all.

Also, I haven't had to deal with the specter of racism, so it means I can be more esoteric and analytical about it, so let's have a hair-splittingly technical pissing match over something that is intellectually pleasurable for me to talk about, but has no noticable impact on my life to the point that I flip out and pee in my pants if anyone every remotely implies I'm not perfect on this issue.

Johnny Damon is half Asian but considered white.
Dave Roberts is half Asian but considered black.
Tiger Woods is half Asian, and only quarter black but is considered black by everyone but himself.
David Ortiz is not black?
Who makes up these rules?

The Red Sox probably have more Japanese than African Americans

Well they are a bunch of racists....those bastards!

Oh for christ's sake.

Gary Sheffield said Joe Torre treats black players differently from white players...and Derek Jeter ain't black.

I don't believe there's any more overt racism because if there was I would know about it. Sure, it could be passing my field of vision because I'm not targeted by it, but nah... And I can find one example of one time where some person of color was treated well, or some white guy got the shaft, so that proofs there's no such problems.

I wish people would just stop talking about race and H1M1 flu<--racist and Seinfeld because things that suck and we don't talk about immediately cease to affect the world or exist at all.

Also, I haven't had to deal with the specter of racism, so it means I can be more esoteric and analytical about it, so let's have a hair-splittingly technical pissing match over something that is intellectually pleasurable for me to talk about, but has no noticable impact on my life to the point that I flip out and pee in my pants if anyone every remotely implies I'm not perfect on this issue.

Fight the power, my brother.

)
Gary Sheffield said Joe Torre treats black players differently from white players...and Derek Jeter ain't black.

Torre was fairly open-minded on issues of race, he never had any problem with Mexican players like Bobby Abreu or Alex Rodriguez.

If shared experiences define your race, Dale Berra and Barry Bonds are blood brothers.

When I have sex with my white wife and have some of my best friends who are white over to my house

I usually wait until they go home.

love yer posts, y_r..gotta get at least one good belly laugh per day.

snapper

this is VERY hard to explain, i know. sorry. i always have trouble trying to explain what i mean when i talk to White people about this. because i am talking ethnic, not just race. a specific group of people who share a common history/ancestry. the history of people of Negro ancestry whose ancestors were slaves in the caribbean are a bit different, and the culture is different - although seems to be that everywhere i look, light colored skin was always valued over darker colored skin

rich,

there are PLENTY of us who do not consider the president to be - shall i say - black like US. his father is kenyan - and he's not like his wife, who has a different history. but he certainly is half Negro. it is different, it just is. and of course he falls in the category of "black person" but just the same, he's not an american black - which is NOT the - he's really a muslim spy who was born in kenya and substituted for some other kid and he's gonna take ovah ze VORLD!!!! insanity. it's ethnic.

bond1 -

i wish that we didn't insist on putting people in one race group. especially because there are so many of us who are multi-racial. i always thought it is interesting that johnny damon is white and not asian, but danny graves is asian and not white - both have white fathers and asian mothers. i was amused that so many people had such a hard time calling bruce chen "panamanian" because, well, he CAN'T be latin no matter WHERE he's from

tiger is BLACK (ovah his dead body) because he has very dark skin and a father with reasonably brown skin and who ever saw his mother and who cares anyhow. jeter, grady sizemore and russell martin are light skinned and don't talk jive, so they aren't supposed to be Black

if tiger had said - i am Black. And asian. And caucasian. And Native American.
i don't want to ignore or dishonor all of my ancestors who weren't Black - it might could have gone over better. actually, most of us who are american Blacks are multi racial - most of us have caucasian or NA (or both) ancestry. besides our history over hundreds of years in THIS country, i would say it is why we consider ourself, well, a distinct ethnic group that is different from people who have Black ancestry who are from other countries

I almost forgot - Ted Williams - was half Mexican. Bloody Sox are racist!

I always hate these sorts of threads because of the BTF insistence on grouping dark-skinned players from Latin America as "Black" in the relevant sense.

NJ

welcome to the party.

I do care (and so should MLB) if large numbers of various ethnic groups are not having appropriate opportunities to play baseball as children. I care because baseball is the best of all things, and I want as many Americans (and non-Americans) exposed to it as posssible.

Agreed. I am an incredibly selfish baseball fan, and I want the best athletes in the world playing MLB, not the NFL, not the NBA, not the Olympics. I want kids in Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, the Midwest, and yes, American inner cities on the diamond, and I want some of them to grow up to be major leaguers.

I am a little curious about talent distribution, however. Think about all the great black position players we've had since integration -- Aaron, Allen, Banks, Belle, Bonds, Griffey, Gwynn, Henderson, R. Jackson, McGriff, Morgan, Murray, Puckett, Raines, Rice, F. Robinson, J. Robinson, Stargell, Strawberry, B. Williams, Winfield are all HoFers or Hall of Fame level talents, and that's not exactly a comprehensive list. How about great black pitchers?

Ferguson Jenkins? Gibson? Vida Blue? Gooden?

Is this lack of great black pitchers due to racism (discouraging talented black youngsters from pitching, converting them to position players in the low minors?) Or just circumstance? (Like how we had Clemens/Johnson/Maddux/Martinez in the 90s/00s?)

But they are black. We just went over this. If your ancestors came from Africa, then you are black. Being black isn't about citizenship. Why would it make any difference to your race whether the slave ship stopped in the Caribbean?

accent

you forgot JR richard

- all KINDS of hitting videos, books, hitting cages, but pitching? maybe pitching coaches are more expensive

Can anyone here imagine Clemens/Maddux/Johnson playing centerfield? That's why these 3 guys are pitching. Do you want to waste Willie Mays' talent on the mound?

bond1

you keep INSISTING on confusing race with ethnic group. one last time - the use of the word "black" - such as in the sentence - only 8% of ML players are "black" - means what i explained before - people born in america with american Negro ancestry. it does not mean that nowhere else in the world are there any people who have Negro ancestry.

it would be like me insisting that if irish people are White, then all White people must be irish - what is the difference if they were ever in ireland

try to understand. not to obfuscate (ooooooooh, BIG word of the day)

There's also Dontrelle Willis. But his former minor leaguer father and softballer mother taught him to pitch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he also grew up middle class, with perhaps a bit more advantages than your average African-American. I think I recall hearing that he played in the same kind of travel leagues white kids played.

I almost forgot - Ted Williams - was half Mexican. Bloody Sox are racist!

Curt Schilling does not approve of this post.

DB

Isn't it pretty obvious that while "race" may on a certain level be a technical or scientific term, when it comes to everyday use a person's "race" is wholly whatever we happen to make it to be?

To a Dominican or a Haitian, David Ortiz is a Dominican.

To an ignorant African American, David Ortiz is just "Spanish".

To an intelligent African American, David Ortiz is often "black" when he's under attack because of his color, but "Dominican" or "Afro-Latino" in other contexts.

To a Ben Chapman or a Tom Yawkey---well, you know what they would have considered David Ortiz.

But it's not as if David Ortiz is changing costumes between appearances.

So for want of a better way of putting it, perhaps we should just call David Ortiz "David Ortiz" and let it go at that. I realize that this is a radical concept, but we're never, ever going to come to any agreement beyond that.

Also, I haven't had to deal with the specter of racism, so it means I can be more esoteric and analytical about it, so let's have a hair-splittingly technical pissing match over something that is intellectually pleasurable for me to talk about, but has no noticable impact on my life to the point that I flip out and pee in my pants if anyone every remotely implies I'm not perfect on this issue.

Eraser X, I covered this upthread.

6. Teal & Black Posted: February 09, 2010 at 12:27 PM (#3456887)
I would like to play the race card card card card and save us the trouble.

See? We don't have to have this talk. Or if we must, let's just keep adding iterations of the word "card" to the end of my sentence until the internet ends.

you keep INSISTING on confusing race with ethnic group.

Lisa is right in using the term ethnic group. From Wikipedia:

An ethnic group is a group of humans whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed.[1][2] This shared heritage may be based upon putative common ancestry, history, kinship, religion, language, shared territory, nationality or physical appearance. Members of an ethnic group are conscious of belonging to an ethnic group; moreover ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness.[3] [4]

....

mong the first to bring the term "ethnic group" into social studies was the German sociologist Max Weber, who defined it as:

[T]hose human groups that entertain a subjective belief in their common descent because of similarities of physical type or of customs or both, or because of memories of colonization and migration; this belief must be important for group formation; furthermore it does not matter whether an objective blood relationship exists.

....

Americans of who descended from African slaves in the Americas, and who went from the period of slavery to Jim Crow/Discrimination to today, share a history and culture. They constitute an ethnic group, distinct from Second Generation Africans whose parents moved to America and from descendants of Latin American slaves. As I gather from Lisa's posts, they use "black" as a shorthand term to refer to their ethnic group. The fact that it has other, and different meanings to White American is irrelevant in terms of that specific usage. The fact that dark skinned Latin Americans would have been banned from MLB before 1947 is irrelevant in terms of that specific usage.

How different groups and people view things can be an interesting topic. Many Jews in German in the 1930's who had assimilated did not think of themselves as Jews, but as Germans. They were soon to be disabused of the notion that the rest of Germany held the same view. Barack Obama is viewed by most of White America as a Black Man who was elected president, without a great deal of consideration of the fact that he had no slave-descended parents, and grew up partly overseas and partly in Hawaii in a multicultural, largely Haole/Asian setting. His election was viewed by Black America, if I read things correctly, as a great watershed moment -- while they still see his wife as being more legitimately "black" than he is.

Can anyone here imagine Clemens/Maddux/Johnson playing centerfield? That's why these 3 guys are pitching. Do you want to waste Willie Mays' talent on the mound?

I'd pay to see the Big Unit in CF, wouldn't you?

But this wasn't the point I was making -- it's that with all the great black talent in the game, you'd think we'd have lucked into some more great pitchers than the four I listed, JR Richard, Willis, Sabathia . . .

Isn't it pretty obvious that while "race" may on a certain level be a technical or scientific term

Andy, I would not dignify that term, and the way it is used, as either scientific or technical. It is probably more political and social.

more great pitchers than the four I listed, JR Richard, Willis, Sabathia .

Mariano River---

Oops.

Mariano River---

Oops.

All I'm saying is that the American black population has produced far less great pitchers than great position players. It could just be a fluke distribution of talent or tt could have a racial undercurrent. Personally, I have no idea, but I'm curious.

although seems to be that everywhere i look, light colored skin was always valued over darker colored skin

except in tanning salons...and pre-1700 subsaharan africa

All arbitrary classifications aside, I'll take a poke at it.

In football, quarterbacks tend to be the sons of coaches, who tends to be the sons of coaches, etc. White quarterbacks, then, are the partial result of a legacy of racism.

Is there evidence that pitchers tend to be the kids of coaches more than position players? Because then maybe a similar effect is at work.

EDIT: This only holds if you assume that both quarterbacking and pitching are more mentally involved than other positions and hitting, in that most truly successful quarterbacks/pitchers will need to be developed at a very young age to have the requisite strategic skills for success (knowing how to read a defense vs. knowing when to throw up and in).

Personally, I have no idea, but I'm curious.

Honestly, I'm curious, too. Does anyone know anything about Sabathia's background? Dontrelle has a unique combination of ballplaying parents and middle-class upbringing. I know C.C. has been a proponent of encouraging Little League in inner cities, but I'm wondering if he grew up middle-class.

the American black population has produced far less great pitchers than great position players. It could just be a fluke distribution of talent or tt could have a racial undercurrent.

More perplexing to me is why the Molina family produces only slow catchers? It could just be a fluke distribution of talent or it could have a racial undercurrent.

Is there evidence that pitchers tend to be the kids of coaches more than position players? Because then maybe a similar effect is at work.

I think you're touching on something Lisa did earlier, and what I mentioned about Dontrelle. Hitting a baseball really really far is one thing, learning how to pitch (and having access to that sort of training) is something else entirely.

Does anyone know anything about Sabathia's background? Dontrelle has a unique combination of ballplaying parents and middle-class upbringing. I know C.C. has been a proponent of encouraging Little League in inner cities, but I'm wondering if he grew up middle-class.

Carsten Charles II grew up in Vallejo (maybe 30 minutes north by northeast of Alameda, where Dontrelle went to high school). Jeff Gordon (of Nascar) was also born in Vallejo. Dontrelle's family was (AFAIK) intact and middle class.

Vallejo is not a ghetto. It's not Richmond. But it has its share of crime and poverty. And its city government (now in bankruptcy) is infamously badly run. The police and fire unions ruined that town somewhat after Mare Island Naval Shipyard closed.

Vallejo is (per the census) about 1/4th black, 1/4 Asian, 1/3 white and the rest Hispanic or other. Its neighborhoods are very mixed racially. The new mayor (a born-again Christian of the Pat Robertson ilk) is African-American.

The more you know.

Sorry Baseball chic. Your ethnic group argument is completely wrong. Nelson Mandela is well known as the first BLACK president of South Africa. Go ask any half educated person anywhere in the world if he considers Nelson Mandela as black and the answer will be yes. I never heard that Nelson Mandela's ancestors worked the cotton fields in the south, nor did hwe grow up in the US.

Obviously, the majority of Caribbean blacks have ancestors who came aboard slave ships. They all share a similar ethnic background.

And back to your illogical Irish analogy. If you are caucasian, it doesn't matter if you are American or Irish, you are white. If you are of african negro ancestry, then you are black, and it doesn't matter where you grew up in Ireland, the US or the Caribbean. I lived in the UK for 10 years, and blacks are called blacks there just as they are here. I'm glad I cleared that up.

If an ethnic group is defined as a group of humans whose members identify with each other, then I would say South African blacks who have experienced apartheid and American blacks who have experienced institutional racism have a lot in common.

I'm kind of sad that I've only seen this thread now, as I have sparred on this issue in the past.

From previous discussions, I don't think BBC LIKES or AGREES with the fact that the word "black" or even moreso "African American", in the U.S. context is reserved for the descendants of U.S slaves, but that is how it is used.

In more general terms, I think a big portion of the U.S. doesn't know how to deal with Latin America's ethnic differences (even moreso with the completely different ethnic categories whihc apply in Lat Am - here in my home country of Panama, nobody would possibly think of Mariano Rivera as black, even though he probably has some black blood in him). Thus, how to deal with somebody like David Ortiz, Bruce Chen or Daisy Fuentes (former MTV Latino VJ and model) or even Giselle Bundchen is not something most U.S. citizens are strong on.

Bond1 mentions Mandela on post 79, in a line of reasoning that I think is not particularly related to the general point here, but it does allow me to go on an interesting (to me, anyway) tangent: the U.S. historically applied the one drop rule for determining whether somebody was black or not.

South Africa, however, applied the one drop blood rule the OTHER WAY AROUND, so that if somebody had SOME non black blood (usually white blood), they were no longer black, but COLORED.

I don't know how many of you guys follow international Rugby Union, but one of the best players in the world is the South African Bryan Habana, who would be considered "black" by pretty much anybody in the U.S., but is considered "colored" in South Africa (which created its own issues within the context of the 2007 SA Springboks, who were cricitized for only having two "colored" players on the roster - Habana and J.P. Pietersen, IIC - but no "blacks", at least as "blacks" are defined in SOuth Africa).

It's weird, I know, but whose to say the U.S. is right and SA is wrong or viceversa, when dealing with such constructs as who is "black", who is "Colored" or mixed race and who is not?

(or for people with REALLY long memories - at least memories of Drew Friedman's Lord of Eltingville strips from Heavy Metal -"Is Johnny Mathis a negro?").

Jim "Mudcat" Grant has a web site about the black 20 game winners. BlackAces

So basically Rosenthal's story is:

"Hey, I noticed a couple of years ago the Sox had one to zero African-Americans, never mind the sh&*tload of Japanese, American Indian, and Latinos they have. They even got rid of Jamaican Justin Masterson for good measure! But this year they picked up Bill Hall, Mike Cameron, and...oh heck, Beltre too. We'll throw him in. Did anyone else notice that? Cause I did...I'm, just sayin..."

I mentioned this last Saturday on another thread, but Luis Tiant is apparently pssed off that he is not allowed to be part of the Black Aces group, because he's Cuban (google "Luis Tiant Black Aces" if you want to read up on this).

FWIW, Ferguson Jenkins is African-Canadian, but he is treated as a "black" or African American ace for purposes of the Black Aces club.

Agreed. I am an incredibly selfish baseball fan, and I want the best athletes in the world playing MLB, not the NFL, not the NBA, not the Olympics. I want kids in Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, the Midwest, and yes, American inner cities on the diamond, and I want some of them to grow up to be major leaguers.

Well, I do want the best athletes to become baseball players, but that's not the most important part to me. I think all kids should at least have the opportunity to play baseball. It won't be for all of them, but I find the idea that there could be some kids in this country who might like baseball but are not introduced to the game because of finances or available fields or whatever reason troubling.

See? We don't have to have this talk. Or if we must, let's just keep adding iterations of the word "card" to the end of my sentence until the internet ends.

Awesome.