Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Tuesday, June 17, 2008

Rosenthal: Mets brass should be ashamed of Randolph firing

What’s Mets Bross got to be asham…oh, wrong decade.

The stain not only is on general manager Omar Minaya, but also those above him — specifically owner Fred Wilpon and his son Jeff, the team’s chief operating officer.

Shame on the Wilpons if their excuse is, “This was Omar’s call.” The firing of a manager only goes down with ownership approval. And ownership is ultimately responsible for the way a team conducts its business.

Fred Wilpon, then, is the most to blame for the Mets’ chaos and dysfunction, which is stirred in part by the strong opinions of his son Jeff and Minaya’s assistant GM, Tony Bernazard.

The Mets’ organizational flow chart looks like a child’s scribble-scrabble. Minaya obviously lacks the full autonomy that the Wilpons promised him. But rather than attack the internal strife, he seemed paralyzed and overwhelmed by the task at hand.

Being GM of the Mets is not easy, not with a cacophony of voices creating unrest inside the organization and numerous outlets in the nation’s media capital demanding answers daily, if not hourly.

Minaya almost could be forgiven if, during the last month, he wanted to put his hands over his ears and scream, “Stop!” But as a native New Yorker and two-time Mets employee, he knows the deal. And he’s failing at a critical task — managing not only the people below him, but also the people above.

Repoz Posted: June 17, 2008 at 03:52 PM | 105 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mets

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 > 
   1. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:05 PM (#2822744)
Sam M. is Robothal? Cool!
   2. JRJ Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:08 PM (#2822748)
"One of the most disgraceful acts in sports history?"

This is a classless move by Omar - no doubt about it. But I don't think it's even the most disgraceful act in Mets history! I'd give that award to Vince Coleman and his firecracker handouts or the trade of Tom Seaver.
   3. DKDC Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:10 PM (#2822752)
Ken's just pissed that he wasn't awake for breaking baseball news for the first time in his life.
   4. BeanoCook Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:11 PM (#2822754)
Why should they be ashamed? This team is nowhere near expectations. Fact is, these players are not playing up to their ability and Randolph is their leader. Since when do we mourn sports firings like this?
   5. BeanoCook Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:12 PM (#2822756)
#3. I think you nailed it.
   6. GGC for Sale Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:25 PM (#2822770)
IIRC, Sam does look a little like Ken, Shooty.
   7. depletion Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:28 PM (#2822772)
Not including off the field stuff (Rae Carruth, et al.) I would guess
a) 1919 World Series
b) CCNY point shaving
c) Pete Rose betting on his own team
d) Any number of thrown boxing matches

rate a bit higher than the firing of Willie.
   8. ian Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:29 PM (#2822773)
People are really falling over themselves to protect the honor of a multi-millionaire that was dogshit at his job. So he should have been fired earlier. It's not a huge injustice, and Willie Randolph probably isn't a relative or friend of yours, so meh.
   9. aleskel Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:30 PM (#2822774)
Not including off the field stuff (Rae Carruth, et al.) I would guess ... rate a bit higher than the firing of Willie.

or, you know, African-Americans being barred from playing professional sports for 80-some-odd years
   10. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:31 PM (#2822782)
So Met fans, does this spark the Mets or not?
   11. Sam M. Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:44 PM (#2822800)
Randolph had to go . . . .

As long as Robothal agrees with this basic premise, I have no problem with the rest of his rip. And there is no doubt at all that the long-term success of the franchise depends on Minaya -- or someone -- getting a handle on the dysfunction that rules the roost. But in reality, it makes little or no sense to blame Minaya for this issue, because the reality is that Jeff Wilpon is so determined to meddle and have his hand in things and so impatient that at the least sign of a bump in the road (and there are ALWAYS bumps in the road; it's the nature of the business . . . .), he will forget to just trust the guy in charge and go talk to one of the assistant GMs, or the pitching coach, or the director of scouting, and ask them whether the GM is doing X or Y or Z right, and the whole vicious cycle of backbiting and mistrust starts again. There isn't a GM in the history of the game who can succeed over the long haul with that going on.

Sure, he could have been more decisive here, and he should have been. Weeks ago. But that's the short-term, and it's not the fundamental issue.

So Met fans, does this spark the Mets or not?

Well, I truly believe Randolph had lost the clubhouse. The players' comments and Wagner's behavior, in particular, showed that. But them responding to Manuel is a whole different issue.
   12. Randomly Fluctuating Defensive Metric Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:47 PM (#2822802)
Vince Coleman and his firecracker handouts


Get down! [dives]
   13. bunyon Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:47 PM (#2822804)
To those who are wondering what the big deal is, you have a future in the Mets front office.


It isn't that they fired him. It's how they did it. I don't think anyone (other than his immediate family, perhaps) disagrees with firing Randolph but the situation was handled like $hit.
   14. TVerik, who wonders what the hell is "Ansky" Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:50 PM (#2822808)
Let's limit it to managerial firings. The worst of these in ML history?

It could be my Yankee bias, but I don't think Yogi had much of a chance to show what he could do.
   15. aleskel Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:53 PM (#2822813)
Let's limit it to managerial firings. The worst of these in ML history?

you could make a case for Girardi and the Marlins. Any managerial move who's only explanation is "Jeffrey Loria is an asshat" has to rate pretty high.
   16. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:55 PM (#2822816)
Sam, stop sitting on the fence. There are 93 games left in the season. How many will the Mets win?
   17. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:55 PM (#2822818)
Tony LaRussa's firing has to rate pretty high, no?
   18. TVerik, who wonders what the hell is "Ansky" Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:57 PM (#2822823)
What'd Stump Merrill do wrong, anyway?
   19. Sam M. Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:58 PM (#2822825)
There are 93 games left in the season. How many will the Mets win?

50. Some slight improvement, owing mainly to the likelihood of being somewhat (but only marginally) healthier, but not really a spark. Happy?
   20. SoSH U at work Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:59 PM (#2822827)
Let's limit it to managerial firings. The worst of these in ML history?


Are you talking poorly executed, or just dumb.

As for unfair, I'd have to tab Tony Perez's shitcanning as being worse than Yogi's. Berra managed the year before and finished third, so he had some time. Plus he was working for a guy he knew had a short fuse with managers.

Perez got a 44-game stint as a rookie manager with the Reds before young pup Bowden pulled the plug.
   21. Spencer Benedict Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:03 PM (#2822832)
Let's limit it to managerial firings. The worst of these in ML history?

I guess they could have fired him during the flight to California, had the plane land, and made him get off in Laramie.
   22. GGC for Sale Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:06 PM (#2822837)
Sam Breadon demoted Bill McKechnie to managing a farm team one year because he lost the WS. Billy Southworth got promoted, only lasted 90 games, then the Cards had him and McKechnie swap jobs again.
   23. BeanoCook Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:07 PM (#2822843)
When the Mets roar back to win the division, nobody will give a crap.
   24. phredbird Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:08 PM (#2822844)
firing casey after the yanks lost in 60 was pretty lame. essentially the same team went on the win four straight pennants and a couple of WS.
   25. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:10 PM (#2822848)
50. Some slight improvement, owing mainly to the likelihood of being somewhat (but only marginally) healthier, but not really a spark. Happy?
So that would give the Mets...84 wins, right? That probably sends Omar packing. Quite a year in Queens.
   26. Rally Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:13 PM (#2822853)
Since when do we mourn sports firings like this?


MGL wrote something about this on his blog. Fired managers usually have multiyear guaranteed contracts, and I think Willie is no exception. He'll be getting a few million over the next few years to play gold, vacation with his family, or sit on his azz.

We should all be so oppressed.
   27. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:14 PM (#2822854)
Sam Breadon demoted Bill McKechnie to managing a farm team one year because he lost the WS. Billy Southworth got promoted, only lasted 90 games, then the Cards had him and McKechnie swap jobs again.

Now that's some managerial depth in the organization.
   28. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:17 PM (#2822858)
I say the Mets 54-39 and miss the playoffs by less than five games. Omar gets canned at the end of the year.
   29. GGC for Sale Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:17 PM (#2822859)
Not only that, Edmundo. Branch Rickey was the GM.
   30. SoSH U at work Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:17 PM (#2822860)
MGL wrote something about this on his blog. Fired managers usually have multiyear guaranteed contracts, and I think Willie is no exception. He'll be getting a few million over the next few years to play gold, vacation with his family, or sit on his azz.

We should all be so oppressed.


And if there's one guy I turn to when I have questions on what is the best way to deal with my fellow man, it's MGL.
   31. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:21 PM (#2822865)
firing casey after the yanks lost in 60 was pretty lame. essentially the same team went on the win four straight pennants and a couple of WS.

Well, the entire team was livid at him for not pitching Whitey Ford in games 1,4 and 7. Ford threw 18 shutout innings in the series, and the whole team thought Casey singlehandedly cost them the series. And, he was 70 years old.

So, probably a move that had to be made.
   32. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:22 PM (#2822867)
Money doesn't erase our basic obligation to treat others well.
   33. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:31 PM (#2822880)
When the Mets roar back to win the division, nobody will give a crap.

Oh no, they're going to hire Jack McKeon, aren't they?!?
   34. Esoteric Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:31 PM (#2822882)
I say the Mets 54-39 and miss the playoffs by less than five games. Omar gets canned at the end of the year.
The curse of Jim Bowden!
   35. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:35 PM (#2822886)
The curse of Jim Bowden

What's that? The team he GMs for has to suck while he's there and 5 years after that?
   36. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:36 PM (#2822887)
I think there was a story in James' Managers book about Joe Altobelli wandering around the office in Baltimore, asking "Does anybody know if I've been fired?"
   37. Joey B. is counting the days to Trea Turner Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:40 PM (#2822888)
"One of the most disgraceful acts in sports history?"

Randolph seems like a good and decent man, but I don't quite get the hysteria either. Everyone knows that the manager is the first to take the blame when a team is perceived as underperforming, fairly or not.

I thought the Yankees treatment of Joe Torre was more disgraceful than this was. It's not exactly as though Randolph is Connie Mack or something.
   38. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:42 PM (#2822893)
It's not exactly as though Randolph is Connie Mack or something.

If he were Connie Mack, he'd have only himself to blame for the way his firing was handled.
   39. Swedish Chef Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:43 PM (#2822895)
The non-firing of McClaren is a bigger managerial scandal than the firing of Randolph.
   40. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:45 PM (#2822897)
From 2000 to 2003 Jerry Manuel and Charlie Manuel were both managers in the AL Central.

Now Jerry Manuel and Charlie Manuel are both managers in the NL East.
   41. SoSH U at work Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:46 PM (#2822901)
Now Jerry Manuel and Charlie Manuel are both managers in the NL East.


As well as Manuel Acta.
   42. GGC for Sale Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:50 PM (#2822908)
Does this mean that Atlanta will fire Cox and replace him with Manuel Ramirez?
   43. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:51 PM (#2822910)
Jack is a good manager. What have the Reds done since he left?

Jack won a ring since leaving Cincy.

And on an interim basis I wager he gets results.

But then I am biased toward old b#stards who tell folks the facts of life whether they like it or not.
   44. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:55 PM (#2822915)
Does this mean that Atlanta will fire Cox and replace him with Manuel Ramirez?

Player-manager Manuel Acosta seems more likely.

I don't know what the Nationals will do. They should just change their name to the Washington Mutuals. That's close enough.
   45. The District Attorney Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:55 PM (#2822916)
And Manuel from Fawlty Towers has displayed similar managerial skills to all of them.

(Acta doesn't count.)
   46. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:55 PM (#2822917)
Is it possible to OD on Schadenfreude?

If so, New York baseball this year ought to be a controlled substance.
   47. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:57 PM (#2822920)
Everyone knows that the manager is the first to take the blame when a team is perceived as underperforming, fairly or not.

They left him twisting in the wind for weeks, then fired him the day after a coast-to-coast road trip began. That's more the issue, not so much whether he deserved to be fired.

As for where it sits on "most disgraceful"...probably not top twenty. In addition to #7's post, I could name many atrociously refereed NBA games that were more disgraceful than this, plus OTTOMH Charles Martin, Marty McSorley, and Ben Christenson should all have done jail time; McSorley and Christenson should still be in jail AFAIC.
   48. GGC for Sale Posted: June 17, 2008 at 05:58 PM (#2822921)
New iteration of the Crispix handle. I get a kick out of these.
   49. Honkie Kong Posted: June 17, 2008 at 06:00 PM (#2822926)
And Manuel from Fawlty Towers has displayed similar managerial skills to all of them.

Que?
   50. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 17, 2008 at 06:01 PM (#2822927)

Well, the entire team was livid at him for not pitching Whitey Ford in games 1,4 and 7. Ford threw 18 shutout innings in the series, and the whole team thought Casey singlehandedly cost them the series. And, he was 70 years old.

So, probably a move that had to be made.


and, rumor has it, he was getting into the habit of asking for someone who hadn't been with the team for a couple of years to go in and pinch-hit

another double firing after winning the pennant was Yogi & Johnny Keane after the 64 season; both organizations had apparently already decided by September that they were going to fire the managers after the season, but then both teams got hot and won the pennant(s)
   51. PerroX Posted: June 17, 2008 at 06:27 PM (#2822962)
A sports franchise is up to no good when they make moves in the middle of the night.

If only middle management was the problem.

Little Wilpon gives one greater appreciation for Little Stein.

Whether it's the Yankees or Mets or Knicks, what's up with the nepotism? I thought NYC was supposed to be the place you made it on your own?
   52. Sam M. Posted: June 17, 2008 at 06:28 PM (#2822965)
I say the Mets 54-39 and miss the playoffs by less than five games.

I'm having a hard time seeing the evidence the Mets are that good. Willie Randolph aside, the fundamental truth is that their top-shelf talent is thin -- they don't have that much of it that is truly reliable or can provide enough production to matter. And when the players they have who are the most productive go down, or can't last enough innings (starting pitching), they don't have quality behind them, either in terms of the bench or in the bullpen, to provide quality performances that produce wins.
   53. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: June 17, 2008 at 06:33 PM (#2822972)
FWIW, the rumor I'm hearing now is that Willie fell on his sword last night. Peterson and Nieto were going to be fired and Willie told Omar they may as well fire him as well. Should be an interesting press conference.
   54. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: June 17, 2008 at 06:36 PM (#2822973)
I don't think Omar wanted to fire Willie, either because he actually supported him or because he wanted someone to share the blame.
   55. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: June 17, 2008 at 06:38 PM (#2822975)
I say the Mets 54-39 and miss the playoffs by less than five games.

The 2005 Mets 83 games and they started no better than the 2008 Mets. This team is better than that one.
   56. Benji Posted: June 17, 2008 at 06:47 PM (#2822985)
What Steinbrenner did to Bob Lemon was light years worse than this, but it wasn't done in the middle of the night so the crybaby ####### sportswriters weren't inconvenienced. This SNY coverage is worse than Wolf Blitzer's nightly "won't this scandal sink Barack Obama?" crap. They are trying to bury Omar because he fired a lousy manager.
   57. Raskolnikov Posted: June 17, 2008 at 06:54 PM (#2822997)
the fundamental truth is that their top-shelf talent is thin -- they don't have that much of it that is truly reliable or can provide enough production to matter.

We disagree here, unless this is an argument on who the top-shelf talent is. It hasn't been Reyes/Wright/Beltran/Santana who have hurt the Mets. It's the RF/LF/1B/4/5 starting pitchers who have dragged the Mets down.
   58. PerroX Posted: June 17, 2008 at 06:56 PM (#2823001)
Again, Benji, something done at 3 am in the morning is by definition a dark deed.

Richard Nixon would be proud.
   59. jwb Posted: June 17, 2008 at 06:58 PM (#2823003)
Don't cry for Willie Randolph

Willie Randolph (2005-08)
3 years/$5.65M (2007-09), plus 2010 club option
fired 6/17/08
signed extension 1/07 (replaces final year of previous contract)
07:$1.4M, 08:$2M, 09:$2.25M, 10:$2.5M club option

unless you've got a deal that pays you $3.5M to do nothing for the next year and a half. From Cot's, of course.
   60. Benji Posted: June 17, 2008 at 06:59 PM (#2823006)
It was midnight there, but who cares what time it was anyway? Nixon was firing a man who was prosecuting him. There's no comparison.
   61. Sam M. Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:01 PM (#2823014)
It hasn't been Reyes/Wright/Beltran/Santana who have hurt the Mets.

That's three hitters and one pitcher. That's the very definition of "thin" top shelf talent. You cannot win with a line-up that goes three productive hitters deep. If you go into a season with a line-up where you are counting on Alou and Castillo and Delgado to be among your productive hitters, that might be OK, but you sure as hell better recognize that you MUST have a strong bench behind them, because they are old and rickety and they are going to miss significant time. And if you go into the season with a strong rotation, but one whose Achilles heel is that they don't go deep into games (because they don't throw strikes and because some of 'em are old as dirt), then you sure as hell better strengthen that bullpen behind them, because those relievers are going to get worked to death. That's what I mean when I say the front-line talent is thin -- in a variety of ways, it needs a lot of help behind it, and the team doesn't have that help.
   62. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:05 PM (#2823020)
You cannot win with a line-up that goes three productive hitters deep.

Except the Mets are 5th in the NL runs, and within shouting distance of being third. They are scoring more runs than the Braves, Sam.

Church is coming back soon as well. I don't think Sam is going to be happy until all the older players are gone even the productive ones.

The Mets have exactly one old starter in their rotation, Pedro Martinez. The rest are younger than 30.
   63. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:07 PM (#2823023)
You cannot win with a line-up that goes three productive hitters deep.

The 2005 White Sox had just one productive hitter, two if you count Jermaine Dye. And one, maybe two top-shelf talent pitchers. Lotta middle-shelvers, though, true, particularly in the 'pen. The Mets aren't really that bad off so far, and the new manager bump could get them back in the thick of things.
   64. Raskolnikov Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:10 PM (#2823025)
I don't think we are disagreeing, Sam. This is similar to the other thread where we are arguing about "cores." Basically, how many "top shelf" talent players are you expecting a team to have? I think 4-6 possible All Stars (I don't include Wagner and Maine) is about as much as one can expect to assemble. It'd be nice to have more, but 4-6 should be sufficient. It's the players on the periphery, the ones who I'd be surprised to still be here in 2010, those are the players of quality that we are missing.
   65. HowardMegdal Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:14 PM (#2823030)
Except the Mets are 5th in the NL runs, and within shouting distance of being third. They are scoring more runs than the Braves, Sam.

What is astounding is that this is happening with no production from RF for about a month, and no production from LF for all but two weeks.
   66. Sam M. Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:24 PM (#2823039)
I don't think Sam is going to be happy until all the older players are gone even the productive ones.

Now, that's not true. I'm just not going to be happy until the Mets show a willingness to give younger players a chance, and quit recycling ancient unproductive players like Easley and Tatis for absolutely no good reason whatsoever. It is because of the debacle that is the Mets' bench and bullpen that they have not been able to ride out the twin problems of (a) injuries to Alou and Church and (b) short stings by their starting pitchers.

For instance, I'm not the biggest Castillo fan in the world, but I think he's adequate for second base and (unlike Dial) don't even have a problem with him hitting second. It's not old I have an issue with per se. It's the fetishization of Proven Veteran™ status that this become this team's signature, and the utter absence of youth, energy, and opportunity.

It's the players on the periphery, the ones who I'd be surprised to still be here in 2010, those are the players of quality that we are missing.

Fair enough. Call it "solidly productive" talent rather than "top shelf" if you like. The Mets should have known that MANY of the players the Mets are/were counting on to be solidly productive -- the Alous and Delgados and Pedros and Ollies -- and thus critical to the success of the team could not be relied on for various reasons. Because of their unreliability due to age, or durability, or the way they pitch, the rest of the Mets roster had to be designed differently. With much better and different (and in many cases, yes, younger) players than they have.
   67. phredbird Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:33 PM (#2823052)
another double firing after winning the pennant was Yogi & Johnny Keane after the 64 season; both organizations had apparently already decided by September that they were going to fire the managers after the season, but then both teams got hot and won the pennant(s)


keane wasn't fired. he jumped before he could be pushed, and went to the yankees. he didn't last long. had a bad year with the yanks in 65, fired in 66, died jan. 67.
   68. phredbird Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:36 PM (#2823056)
snapper, i doubt casey got fired cuz the players hated him, not that it wasn't warranted. he was unpopular with many of them the whole time he was with the team.

didn't he get on the wrong side of ownership at some point? i read creamer's bio of him years ago, don't remember this part, except that at the time, casey said something like he'd never make the mistake of being 70 again ...
   69. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:36 PM (#2823060)
Tony LaRussa's firing has to rate pretty high, no?

Absolutely. Hawk Harrelson was the worst GM in history. He canned LaRussa a few months after making him play Fisk in left (and that was despite trading away centerfielder Rudy Law, making the OF a real mess).

firing casey after the yanks lost in 60 was pretty lame. essentially the same team went on the win four straight pennants and a couple of WS.

Well, the entire team was livid at him for not pitching Whitey Ford in games 1,4 and 7. Ford threw 18 shutout innings in the series, and the whole team thought Casey singlehandedly cost them the series. And, he was 70 years old.

So, probably a move that had to be made.


And by some accounts Stengel had slipped a bit mentally. He wasn't senile, but his reputation was based on being the sharpest tack in the box, and that was gone. His experience with the Mets doesn't help him much either.

Also, they had Ralph Houk waiting and he was arguably the best regraded managerial prize in baseball at the time. If the Yanks didn't give him the job, someone else would've snatched him instead.

They also cleaned out George Weiss at the same time.

If it really was the same team, that's a knock against Stengel. They plyaed .642 ball from 1961-3, and they only played that well for one season under Stengel (in 1954).

The Yanks worst firing? Easy - letting George Stallings go because Hal Chase didn't like him. That's 63 different kinds of stupid.

Joe Altobelli was treateed exceptionally poorly on his way out the door in Baltimore. He won a title for them in '83 but when Weaver decided to comeback, Altobielli was reduced to wandering the hallways of the Orioles's front office asking people if they knew if he'd been fired.
   70. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:38 PM (#2823062)
We disagree here, unless this is an argument on who the top-shelf talent is. It hasn't been Reyes/Wright/Beltran/Santana who have hurt the Mets. It's the RF/LF/1B/4/5 starting pitchers who have dragged the Mets down.


Delgado is .272/.346/.488 over the last 44 games with 8 HR (and .306/.370/.490 the last two weeks)--not world beating to be sure but that'd be Babe freakin' Ruth on the Blue Jays.

Of course, after checking his situational hitting maybe he still is a Blue Jay.

Best Regards

John
   71. phredbird Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:38 PM (#2823065)
cardinals have a funny history with pennant winning managers, though. when rogers hornsby managed the team to its first world championship in 26, he was rewarded by being traded to the giants for frankie frisch. so i guess you could say he got fired too.
   72. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:39 PM (#2823066)
Does anyone know why the Reds fired Sparky Anderson? Were two consecutive second place finishes (with 92 wins in the second one) really that bad?

And if WKRP in Cincinnati has taught us anything, he was fired, rather than resign.
   73. Raskolnikov Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:43 PM (#2823073)
For instance, I'm not the biggest Castillo fan in the world, but I think he's adequate for second base and (unlike Dial) don't even have a problem with him hitting second. It's not old I have an issue with per se. It's the fetishization of Proven Veteran™ status that this become this team's signature, and the utter absence of youth, energy, and opportunity.

I have no problem with either Castillo or Alou, but counting on both is just foolishly risky. The Alou debacle could easily have been the Castillo debacle instead - both are productive when healthy, but you can't count on them to be healthy.

Schneider or Castillo is okay. But if you have both, then basically Omar's conceding that the lineup will accomodate 2 slots where we could get sub .350 SLG production (3 slots if counting the pitcher). That's why we were in the bottom of the league in HRs at the beginning of the year.

As we've said many times before here, it wasn't a single move that sank the Mets, but the series of move in conjunction which left this team vulnerable.
   74. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:44 PM (#2823075)
And if WKRP in Cincinnati has taught us anything, he was fired, rather than resign.

5 things I learned from WKRP

1. White loafers do not go with plaid suits.
2. Brunettes are hotter than blondes.
3. Cocaine does not cure athlete's foot, it only numbs the itching
4. Walls are a state of mind
5. TURKEYS CAN'T FLY!
   75. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:45 PM (#2823081)
Now, that's not true. I'm just not going to be happy until the Mets show a willingness to give younger players a chance, and quit recycling ancient unproductive players like Easley and Tatis for absolutely no good reason whatsoever. It is because of the debacle that is the Mets' bench and bullpen that they have not been able to ride out the twin problems of (a) injuries to Alou and Church and (b) short stings by their starting pitchers.


I think Ricciardi is Italian for Minaya--Brad Wilkerson and Kevin Mench anyone while Adam Lind rots in AAA?

Best Regards

John
   76. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:47 PM (#2823084)
I think Ricciardi is Italian for Minaya--Brad Wilkerson and Kevin Mench anyone while Adam Lind rots in AAA?

The Mets don't have anyone like that.
   77. JPWF13 Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:50 PM (#2823088)
I think Ricciardi is Italian for Minaya--Brad Wilkerson and Kevin Mench anyone while Adam Lind rots in AAA?


That's an idea, the Mets should offer Delgado (+ $) to Toronto for Lind & Overbay (less toasty than Delgado)- and exchange headcases Perez for Burnett...
   78. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:53 PM (#2823092)
cardinals have a funny history with pennant winning managers, though. when rogers hornsby managed the team to its first world championship in 26, he was rewarded by being traded to the giants for frankie frisch. so i guess you could say he got fired too.

Only one team has ever had three World Series winning managers who also won over 1000 games individually in their career manage them in the same season. The 1990 Cards.

Only one other team has ever had three World Series winning managers run the team in the same season. The 1929 Cards.

Oh, and I just remembered what the worst managerial hiring of all-time was: the Cubs firing Joe McCarthy with a handful of games left in the season in order for Rogers Hornsby to take the reigns. McCarthy had turned the team around (they were in last place the year before he showed up) and took them to their first pennant in over a decade in 1929. He went to New York and continued with a peerless career as skipper. Hornsby was one of the worst managers in baseball history, and just plain was the worst ever at dealing with and communicating with players.

Other departures of note I haven't seen mentioned yet:
Davey Johnson 1995 Cincy
Davey Johnson 1997 Balt
Davey Johnson 2000 LA
Al Lopez 1956 Cle
Dusty Baker 2002 SFG
Bobby Cox 1985 Tor (did he resign or something?)
Buck Showlater 1995 NYY
Bob Lemon 1978 CWS (surprised by this one? Ask a Sox fan about the '77 South Side Hit-Men)
Bill McKechnie 1926 Pit
Larry Dierker 2001 Hou
   79. Raskolnikov Posted: June 17, 2008 at 07:55 PM (#2823094)
The Mets don't have anyone like that.

He's not Lind, but what the heck does Pascucci have to do to earn a shot?
   80. BTF's left-wing cheering section (formerly_dp) Posted: June 17, 2008 at 08:06 PM (#2823107)
John, b/c I haven't been following it, is anyone calling for JP's head up in TO right now? I mean, any more than usual of course...
   81. phredbird Posted: June 17, 2008 at 08:26 PM (#2823123)
well, in 1990 joe torre hadn't become JOE TORRE, but that is interesting. i'd forgotten 1990. that must have been at a time when i wasn't watching too closely. my son was an infant then.
   82. JPWF13 Posted: June 17, 2008 at 08:28 PM (#2823126)
5 things I learned from WKRP

5. TURKEYS CAN'T FLY!


There is a flock of wild turkeys near where I live, about two year sago I was driving down the street, towards the setting sun, and there were all these large blobs in a tree (late fall)...

I couldn't make out what they were until the tree was no longer silhouetted- Turkeys, I slowed down, wondering, how did such big birds get into the tree? Just then, a big male by the side of my car stuck his wings out (Big effing wing span) and took off (no running start either- like vultures need)at a 45 degree angle into the tree. You could hear the whoosh as it pushed air with its wings...

I was impressed, I really did not think they could do it, since then I've seen a few others fly. They prefer to walk because they are really big and heavy animals, and flying for them is a lot more strenuous than for lighter birds- but so help me they can fly.
   83. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: June 17, 2008 at 08:28 PM (#2823127)
John, b/c I haven't been following it, is anyone calling for JP's head up in TO right now? I mean, any more than usual of course...

They are more concerned about the Maple Leafs' GM search.
   84. Boots Day Posted: June 17, 2008 at 08:38 PM (#2823137)
Billy Martin got canned by the Twins after winning the division in 1969.

Dick Howser got fired by the Yankees after winning the division in 1980.

Danny Murtaugh left the Pirates after winning the 1971 WS; I assume he retired, although he came back later.

The Dodgers fired Charley Dressen after winning back-to-back pennants in 1952-53.

Dick Williams left the A's after winning the 1973 WS.

It's funny how many managers have left teams immediately after taking them to the World Series.
   85. GGC for Sale Posted: June 17, 2008 at 08:40 PM (#2823139)
Wasn't the deal with Dressen that he wanted more than a one year contract?
   86. WhoWantsTeixeiraDessert Posted: June 17, 2008 at 08:41 PM (#2823143)
Quitting cuts into your severance pay.
   87. Boots Day Posted: June 17, 2008 at 08:41 PM (#2823144)
Yeah, I think you're right. And Alston had no problem with it.
   88. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2008 at 08:43 PM (#2823145)
Wasn't the deal with Dressen that he wanted more than a one year contract?


Yes. The Dodgers only gave out one year contracts to managers then, and so I guess technically Dressen wasn't fired--he wasn't re-hired. He asked for a 3 year contract and O'Malley said no and went with Walter Alston (who, despite managing for 23 years, also never got a multi-year contract).
   89. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 17, 2008 at 08:47 PM (#2823149)
Actually, it was MRS. Dressen agitating for 3 years. She got Charlie to ask.

Women, can't live with'em, can't stick'em in a sack and leave'em in the closet when talkin' money.
   90. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: June 17, 2008 at 08:59 PM (#2823159)
Howser quit because Steinbrenner wanted to fire Mike Ferraro, the 3rd Base coach, who George blamed for the ALCS loss. Howser said "If he goes, I go." and he went.
   91. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: June 17, 2008 at 09:06 PM (#2823168)
Billy Martin got canned by the Twins after winning the division in 1969.

Beat the crap out of two of his pitchers in a drunken bar fight.

Dick Howser got fired by the Yankees after winning the division in 1980.

See 90.

Dick Williams left the A's after winning the 1973 WS.

Hated Charley Finley's guts.
   92. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: June 17, 2008 at 09:06 PM (#2823169)
OK, I got it sort of wrong. Ferraro sent a runner home in Game 2 of the ALCS, and he was out by a mile. George blew up (and it was captured on TV), and then after the game wanted Ferraro fired right then. Howser refused. After the series, Howser quit/was fired, but Ferraro wasn't.

Oh, and the runner who got nailed at the plate? Yup, Willie Randolph.
   93. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: June 17, 2008 at 09:14 PM (#2823178)
Does anyone know why the Reds fired Sparky Anderson? Were two consecutive second place finishes (with 92 wins in the second one) really that bad?

In retrospect, no, but the Reds did win the division the first year he was gone.

The Tigers waited about 50 games into the '79 campaign to fire their first-year manager, Les Moss, so they could snap up Sparky. Moss waited his whole life for the job, lasted a couple months, was never really heard from again. Tough business.

Sparky promised us Tiger fans a WS winner within 5 years and delivered.
   94. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 17, 2008 at 09:22 PM (#2823187)
if you remember, the Steinbrenner/Howser fiasco was a fiasco

George had the temerity to claim that Howser was "resigning" becuz of these wonderful "real-estate opportunities" that he (Howser) wanted to pursue

(gutless (forget))
   95. JPWF13 Posted: June 17, 2008 at 09:53 PM (#2823217)
He's not Lind, but what the heck does Pascucci have to do to earn a shot?


Not play for an Omar Minaya GM'd organization?

Seriously, Pascucci is not some hidden diamond, he's got power, but as an everyday player in the majors he'd probably STRUGGLE mightily to clear .250, but he's willing to take a walk, and he bats righty whereas Delgado bats lefty and can't hit lefties to save himself- so hauling up Pascucci to spell Delgado makes sense to me when the Mets seem to be carrying three catchers for some mysterious reason....
   96. The Polish Sausage Racer Posted: June 17, 2008 at 10:46 PM (#2823266)
2. Brunettes are hotter than blondes.


Huh. I learned this from Charlie's Angels.
   97. schuey Posted: June 18, 2008 at 12:02 AM (#2823359)
Never really heard why Sparky Anderson was fired. The best guess was he had a number of young pitchers (Nolan, Simpson, Merritt) that couldn't stay healthy. He may have been too loyal to his players. Kept batting Joe Morgan third thinking he would revert to MVP as he was in 1975-76. But to hire John McNamara??
Casey Stengel and George Weiss were told in late September this was the end of the line. Topping never really cared for Stengel and Webb faded in support. They eliminated his instructional camp in 1958. Ralph Houk had a job offer from Kansas City. I don't think the Yankees would have done as well if he stayed (Bouton says players got tired of newspaper stories always being about Zack Wheat and Uncle Robbie instead of what they did). But he and Weiss did rebuild the team on the fly. Houk also did things like start Whitey Ford every 4th day.
Yogi went into the meeting after the 1964 world series planning on asking for a two year deal after losing the world series in seven games without shortstop Kubek, Ford after game one and reliever Pedro Ramos wasn't acquired before September 1st (according to Bill Veeck it was ownership and not GM Houk who made the deal to get the Cuban Cowboy). He was shocked to get the pink slip and a few weeks later was in Queens with Stengel and Weiss.
Anyone ever hear why Hank Bauer was fired in mid 1968? He wins first world series for the organization in 65 years. Gets fired although the Orioles did replace him with Earl Weaver. Maube he was too much "these players aren't tough like we were on Okinawa". Golenbock's "Dybasty" talks about him being disillousioned managing minor leaguers in early 1970s.

Of course this was a poorly handled firing but what else can you expect from an organization that is tight with Lupica? Yjey have no brains or sense of smell.
   98. Шĥy Posted: June 18, 2008 at 12:20 AM (#2823419)
Willie literally had one of the best jobs in the world. Every day that he had the job was a privilege. His sense of entitlement to the job and his laziness while having the job were far more disgusting than his firing.
   99. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 18, 2008 at 12:30 AM (#2823454)
Danny Murtaugh left the Pirates after winning the 1971 WS; I assume he retired, although he came back later.

He didn't retire nor was fired. He took a different job in the organization. I think he had a chronic heart problem. That's both why he kept coming & going with the Pirates, and why he died so young. The team never fired him.

Similarly, Houk became GM after leading the Yanks to 3 straight Series from 1961-3.

Anyone ever hear why Hank Bauer was fired in mid 1968? He wins first world series for the organization in 65 years. Gets fired although the Orioles did replace him with Earl Weaver. Maube he was too much "these players aren't tough like we were on Okinawa". Golenbock's "Dybasty" talks about him being disillousioned managing minor leaguers in early 1970s.

Well, they win in 1966. Then they flounder in 1967, and were stuck at .500 in 1968. He didn't live up to expectations.
   100. Howie Menckel Posted: June 18, 2008 at 12:40 AM (#2823487)
"There is a flock of wild turkeys near where I live, about two year sago I was driving down the street, towards the setting sun, and there were all these large blobs in a tree (late fall)..."

Yep, some of them like to spend time in trees - and they don't climb up there, I promise.

I have about a dozen of 'em living down the street from me. They spend most of their time on 3 or 4 different front lawns. If they are in the road, don't expect them to run/fly away quickly. They move at their own chosen speed.
Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 > 

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
The Ghost of Sox Fans Past
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOTP 16 October 2017: Sorry, Yankee fans: Trump’s claim that he can ensure victory simply isn’t true
(1945 - 7:53am, Oct 23)
Last: You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR)

NewsblogCubs Fire Bosio
(12 - 3:22am, Oct 23)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogEXPANSION COULD TRIGGER REALIGNMENT, LONGER POSTSEASON
(118 - 3:04am, Oct 23)
Last: Joyful Calculus Instructor

NewsblogOT - 2017 NFL thread
(151 - 11:38pm, Oct 22)
Last: Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb

NewsblogAngell: Bringing the Yankees Home?
(16 - 11:21pm, Oct 22)
Last: ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

NewsblogOT - NBA 2017-2018 Tip-off Thread
(461 - 10:32pm, Oct 22)
Last: Gold Star - just Gold Star

NewsblogAstros beat Yankees to force Game 7 in ALCS | MLB.com
(22 - 9:44pm, Oct 22)
Last: Nero Wolfe, Indeed

NewsblogPetriello: Bregman's split-second call preserves shutout
(17 - 9:18pm, Oct 22)
Last: Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network)

NewsblogDeadspin: Please Enjoy(?) 21 Years Of Joe Buck Hyping Forgotten Fox Shows
(21 - 9:12pm, Oct 22)
Last: AndrewJ

NewsblogAstros' Justin Verlander named ALCS MVP after two dominant starts vs. Yankees
(43 - 9:07pm, Oct 22)
Last: Buck Coats

NewsblogOT: Winter Soccer Thread
(37 - 5:41pm, Oct 22)
Last: Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB)

Sox TherapyQuestioning the Winter
(19 - 4:59pm, Oct 22)
Last: Jose is an Absurd Doubles Machine

NewsblogALCS Game 6 OMNICHATTER, for October 20, 2017
(155 - 4:41pm, Oct 22)
Last: Wahoo Sam

NewsblogDusty Baker Will Not Be Back as Manager
(85 - 2:29pm, Oct 22)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogOT - October 2017 College Football thread
(88 - 2:13pm, Oct 22)
Last: don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all

Page rendered in 0.6219 seconds
47 querie(s) executed