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Sunday, August 21, 2011

Rosenthal: Those Wild and Crazy Brewers

The Brewers’ personality is like no other club’s. They are the anti-Cardinals, joyful instead of joyless, exuding energy. Their dugout erupted after they regained the lead in the ninth, and the players were still exchanging high-fives and hugs when they took the field for the bottom half, almost like a high-school team.
...
“It may seem like it’s a free-for-all. I don’t want it be a free-for-all,” Roenicke said. “But with a lot of stuff, I just say, ‘All right.’ I try to pick battles when I think they need to be picked. I bite my lip a lot.”

Roenicke said that he often seeks guidance from Kotsay and Counsell, two veterans who have played for winning teams.

If, for example, an outfielder such as Nyjer Morgan and Carlos Gomez makes a play look a little too flashy, Roenicke will use Kotsay as a sounding board, asking, “Are you OK with that?” If Kotsay says yes, Roenicke will let the moment pass.

I think there’s a term for the role that Kotsay is filling here, and it’s not “fourth outfielder”.

The Keith Law Blog Blah Blah (battlekow) Posted: August 21, 2011 at 05:49 PM | 125 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: brewers, cardinals

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   1. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 21, 2011 at 08:59 PM (#3905492)
I find the 'anti-Cardinal' usage amusing.

I am sure Tony will file a grievance with the Commissioner's ofice.
   2. joeysdadjoe Posted: August 21, 2011 at 09:45 PM (#3905504)
Fifth outfielder.
   3. CraigK Posted: August 21, 2011 at 09:47 PM (#3905505)

I am sure Tony will file a grievance with the Commissioner's ofice.


I am too.

It's weird; it's as if Tony La Russa made a deal with the devil in 1977: he would become one of the greatest managers of all time, but he would also become a sanctimonious, holier than thou ####### along the way.
   4. rr Posted: August 21, 2011 at 09:58 PM (#3905509)
Win 20 in The Show, and the media will say you're colorful.

______

If the Cardinals were up 8, the Brewers would immature showboats, and the Cardinals would be focused professionals.
   5. scotto Posted: August 21, 2011 at 09:59 PM (#3905511)
I think there’s a term for the role that Kotsay is filling here, and it’s not “fourth outfielder”.

I think it's "Third Uncle". Burn his shoes, cook the leather indeed.
   6. NTNgod Posted: August 21, 2011 at 10:01 PM (#3905512)
From this morning's MIL J-S:
Merchandise? The Brewers have become national players at retail, just like their friends up in Green Bay. That's thanks in part to Tony Plush, the alter ego of outfielder Nyjer Morgan: The No. 1-selling item in the stadium is the Plush T-shirt.

Schlesinger and Major League Baseball report that, for the first time in franchise history, the Brewers rank in the top third of all franchises for national retail sales. And the Brewers are in the top third among all clubs for retail sales within their own ballpark.

"We will have record sales this year," Schlesinger said. "We've had to reorder the Plush T-shirt four times. It's really taken on a life of its own."

MLB reports that sales overall of Brewers gear are up 12% over last year. New Era reports that sales of Brewers caps are up 130% from July of last year through this past July.


How much of a cut does Morgan (or any player) get on the merchandise bearing their image or name? Probably a nice bonus for Morgan, given his relatively low salary.
   7. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 21, 2011 at 10:07 PM (#3905514)
robin

I have not mentioned previously but word is that non-Pujols Cardinals are expressing exasperation with Tony while on the bases. That it's tough to 'play angry'.

Understood if Cardinal fans come out in force to challenge me.

Just passing along commentary
   8. CraigK Posted: August 21, 2011 at 10:15 PM (#3905518)
Ever since I saw that Nyjer Morgan adopted a kitten and put pictures of it on Twitter, I have wanted him to bat 1.000/1.000/4.000 every time he plays against the Cardinals.
   9. rr Posted: August 21, 2011 at 10:20 PM (#3905520)
HW,

Could well be so. My comment was more on the media and the way that they make the narrative fit the standings. When you are running away from the pack, Nyjer Morgan is a fun guy and Roenicke's loose-reins approach looks great. If the Cardinals were winning the division, we would get a different slant. My slant is that the Brewers are winning it because Greinke got rolling and they have the better team.

I picked the Brewers to win the Central each of the last three years. Every blind pig does indeed find an acorn every now and then.
   10. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 21, 2011 at 10:20 PM (#3905521)
Craig:

I hate cats.

Not trying to be a pain. Just really hate cats.
   11. McCoy Posted: August 21, 2011 at 10:21 PM (#3905522)
How much of a cut does Morgan (or any player) get on the merchandise bearing their image or name? Probably a nice bonus for Morgan, given his relatively low salary.

I'm pretty sure it is a standard cut that all player's union members get. Though I imagine it is somewhat based on playing time.

Didn't the union sell their rights to MLB a few years back. I recall reading that when the fantasy baseball lawuits were going around.
   12. rr Posted: August 21, 2011 at 10:23 PM (#3905525)
HW, Craig:

I have three cats, all adopted off the streets, one as a kitten (found him in a crate outside a supermarket).

Sounds like some common ground for me, Nyjer, and TLR, if not for HW.
   13. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 21, 2011 at 10:26 PM (#3905528)
robin

I freely state that the only good cat is a dead cat.

When I am out in the fields and I come across a feral cat I work to shoot it dead.

Cats hunt for pleasure. They kill for the joy of killing.

If folks kept them inside at all times I would have no issue with cats.

But folks are stupid so I have to address the issue of cats killing baby rabbits and pheasants.

Which I do.
   14. formerly dp Posted: August 21, 2011 at 10:29 PM (#3905530)
After this weekend, I have one thing to say: F the Brewers. Seriously.
   15. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 21, 2011 at 10:31 PM (#3905531)
Post 14:

I received a similar text from a friend in St. Louis

I thought it most unbecoming.
   16. rr Posted: August 21, 2011 at 10:33 PM (#3905533)
HW,

My crew is 100% indoor, and one of them would be scared shitless of baby pheasants.

They do indeed kill for pleasure, just like humans.

fdp,

Even though they have buried the Reds, I like the Brewers. I am ready for a Brewers/Rangers World Series. F the Red Sox and the Yankees.
   17. rr Posted: August 21, 2011 at 10:34 PM (#3905536)
What is more surprising: that HW texts, or that he has a friend in St. Louis?
   18. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 21, 2011 at 10:34 PM (#3905537)
The best Brewers team since 1982, which BTW featured 4 HOFers plus Ted Simmons who may one day get in. I'm rooting for them to win it all.
   19. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 21, 2011 at 10:39 PM (#3905540)
What is more surprising: that HW texts, or that he has a friend in St. Louis?

I do not text. I receive texts.

Very aggravating.

Hence, the texts from St. Louis
   20. cardsfanboy Posted: August 21, 2011 at 11:15 PM (#3905562)
Post 14:

I received a similar text from a friend in St. Louis

I thought it most unbecoming.


Yep I don't get animosity towards the Brewers, if the Cardinals would win more than one game a series and making it interesting then I could see having some bitterness towards them, but the fact is that the Cardinals are doing their best Greg Louganis impression.
   21. base ball chick Posted: August 21, 2011 at 11:22 PM (#3905565)
Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 21, 2011 at 06:07 PM (#3905514)

robin

I have not mentioned previously but word is that non-Pujols Cardinals are expressing exasperation with Tony while on the bases. That it's tough to 'play angry'.


- have heard same rumor


Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 21, 2011 at 06:26 PM (#3905528)

I freely state that the only good cat is a dead cat.


- one of the many reasons that i say that harveys is teh KEWL!!!!

and me i am rooting for the brewers once the astros season is officially ovah - of course then harvey would become either mellow or insufferable

and yes i know that the only ex-Stro on the brewers is randy wolf
   22. NTNgod Posted: August 21, 2011 at 11:24 PM (#3905567)
and yes i know that the only ex-Stro on the brewers is randy wolf

Hawkins also springs to mind.
   23. formerly dp Posted: August 21, 2011 at 11:31 PM (#3905569)
Even though they have buried the Reds, I like the Brewers.

I'm just kidding. Upset that they walked all over the Mets this weekend. Actually, I'm pulling for them in the Central and for Arizona in the west, both really interesting teams. If either of them can knock the Phillies out in round 1, they've found a new fan...
   24. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 21, 2011 at 11:43 PM (#3905572)

I hate cats.


Is there treatment for that? Or is a full-on lobotomy in order?
   25. cardsfanboy Posted: August 21, 2011 at 11:59 PM (#3905580)
I think it's kinda neat that the NL Central will have it's fourth division champ in the past four seasons. (If the Diamondbacks win the division, the West will have had four representatives in the past 4 years also---heck the AL East has had three representatives the past 4 years, and if the Tigers hold on that is 3 in the past four years---who says there is no parity :) )
   26. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:09 AM (#3905586)

I freely state that the only good cat is a dead cat.


You misspelled "dog".


If folks kept them inside at all times I would have no issue with cats.


Twice.
   27. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:29 AM (#3905596)
If folks kept them inside at all times I would have no issue with cats.


Anytime I drop my guard and leave my shed door open overnight, the neighbor's cat goes in there and sh1ts all over my workbench. I've vowed to kill it the next time I catch it in my yard, and I don't care if they sue.
   28. Sweatpants Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:31 AM (#3905598)
(If the Diamondbacks win the division, the West will have had four representatives in the past 4 years also---heck the AL East has had three representatives the past 4 years, and if the Tigers hold on that is 3 in the past four years---who says there is no parity :) )
If both the Brewers and Tigers can hold on to their division leads, then the number of teams that have never won a division in the six-division era will be six. Right now, it's:

Nationals/Expos
Marlins
Brewers
Pirates
Rockies
Blue Jays
Royals
Tigers
   29. cardsfanboy Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:43 AM (#3905602)
If both the Brewers and Tigers can hold on to their division leads, then the number of teams that have never won a division in the six-division era will be six. Right now, it's:

Nationals/Expos
Marlins
Brewers
Pirates
Rockies
Blue Jays
Royals
Tigers


And the Tigers, Marlins and Rockies all made it to the World Series(not a positive or negative about the wildcard, just stating)
   30. rr Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:55 AM (#3905608)
I've vowed to kill it the next time I catch it in my yard, and I don't care if they sue.


Might want to confront your neighbors, rather than taking it out on the cat.

I like both dogs and cats.
   31. asdf1234 Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:58 AM (#3905610)
Before tonight's Cardinal game, the Reds, Brewers, and Cardinals had RS-RA totals of 42, 49, and 49, respectively. Two of those teams lag 9 and 13.5 games behind the other. In a just world, this would have been a thrilling pennant race down the stretch instead of an affair that everyone just wants to finish sans injury. (Brewers fans can be forgiven for their lack of interest in exciting pennant races.)
   32. rr Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:02 AM (#3905615)
@ 31

I noticed that as well. The RS-RA is also odd in the NL West. AZ is +8, SF is -15, and SD is +4.
   33. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:07 AM (#3905618)
Might want to confront your neighbors, rather than taking it out on the cat.


I have. Their position is "Don't leave your shed door open, because we sure as hell aren't keeping the cat indoors overnight." If I accidentally leave my car windows open overnight, it defecates in there as well. That hasn't happened in a few years, as I am more careful with the car windows than the shed door. Cats are the ####### scourge of the earth.
   34. rr Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:11 AM (#3905620)
Might want to talk to a lawyer, or a cop, or a Humane society rep, then.

If the neighbors are being dicks about it, that would change things some.
   35. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:13 AM (#3905622)
Cats are the ####### scourge of the earth.


Let me ammend that. People who own cats, and think they are part time pets, to be let loose to do whatever the hell they feel like doing most of the time, are the ####### scourge of the earth.

But cats enable that behavior, by being so adaptable. Do that with a dog, and he either dies or stands at your door and barks until you take him back in and never do that again.
   36. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:15 AM (#3905624)
Might want to talk to a lawyer, or a cop, or a Humane society rep, then.


I have. There are no cat leash laws where I live. It is perfectly legal to let your cat run loose and wild any and all times of day. Of course the owner is liable for damages, but is it worth suing over cat #### on the seat of my Volvo?
   37. rr Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:28 AM (#3905629)
Probably not, but if you actually harm the animal, that will probably escalate any issues that you have with your neighbors, rather than ending them.

I have used humane traps on a few occasions to trap alley cats and take them to shelters and so forth. Got a couple adopted.
   38. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:33 AM (#3905630)
Probably not, but if you actually harm the animal, that will probably escalate any issues that you have with your neighbors, rather than ending them.


How about if the next time it's in my shed I just shut the doors and don't open them for a month?
   39. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:41 AM (#3905634)
I have used humane traps on a few occasions to trap alley cats and take them to shelters and so forth. Got a couple adopted.


That's not a bad idea. I may do that, and bring the neighbor's cat to the shelter. Make them investigate where it went.
   40. Justin T drives a crooked hoss Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:43 AM (#3905637)
To be fair, a pile of cat #### on the seat of a Volvo probably increases its value.
   41. Pleasant Nate (Upgraded from 'Nate') Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:45 AM (#3905638)
That's not a bad idea. I may do that, and bring the neighbor's cat to the shelter. Make them investigate where it went.


Recommendation: take it to a far away shelter.
   42. rr Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:45 AM (#3905639)
Maybe number 40 will trigger a car thread...
   43. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:45 AM (#3905640)
To be fair, a pile of cat #### on the seat of a Volvo probably increases its value.


Perhaps, but not its drivability, at least on defecation day.
   44. cardsfanboy Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:50 AM (#3905643)
Maybe number 40 will trigger a car thread...


That implies that people consider a Volvo to be a car instead of a square box with wheels.
   45. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:58 AM (#3905651)
That implies that people consider a Volvo to be a car instead of a square box with wheels.


Ah, no., Not always.
   46. Phil Coorey. Posted: August 22, 2011 at 02:10 AM (#3905656)
I hate cats , but like the Brewers.
   47. rr Posted: August 22, 2011 at 02:15 AM (#3905658)
I like cats but hate the Red Sox.
   48. El Tigre Astride A Space Camel Posted: August 22, 2011 at 02:16 AM (#3905659)
That implies that people consider a Volvo to be a car instead of a square box with wheels.

Add "self-propelled" and that's pretty much the perfect definition of a car.
   49. El Tigre Astride A Space Camel Posted: August 22, 2011 at 02:16 AM (#3905661)
Both cats and the Brewers are admirable.
   50. Kurt Posted: August 22, 2011 at 02:23 AM (#3905667)
Cats are better than dogs, because they are closer to nothing.
   51. Walt Davis Posted: August 22, 2011 at 02:31 AM (#3905674)
Before tonight's Cardinal game, the Reds, Brewers, and Cardinals had RS-RA totals of 42, 49, and 49, respectively.

Before today, nobody in the AL Central had a positive run differential. The Tigers did just move up to +1.

There are many fun games with run differential this year like:

AZ +8
SF -15 1.5 GB
CO -7 9.5 GB
SD +4 11 GB

That's right, the Pads are +4 and 11 games under 500 -- imagine if they'd held onto Gonzalez they might only be 7 games back! -- and Arizona is +8 and 11 games over 500.

The Reds have an 83 run differential advantage over the Pirates which is worth 2 games in the standings; the Rangers have a 99 run differential advantage over the Angels and a 4-game lead. The Royals are -66 and the Twins -122 but the Royals are 4 back of the Twins.
   52. TerpNats Posted: August 22, 2011 at 02:46 AM (#3905687)
I love cats, but anyone who leaves them outside these days is inviting danger -- not just from angry neighbors, but other animals and potential disease. Keep them indoors and channel their predatory instincts towards rodents and similar indoor vermin. Our family adopted a feral kitten that had been abused 14 years ago, and now it's completely comfortable inside, knowing it gets affection, care and food in the house.
   53. mex4173 Posted: August 22, 2011 at 02:52 AM (#3905693)
That's not a bad idea. I may do that, and bring the neighbor's cat to the shelter. Make them investigate where it went.



It might also cost them to bail it out. It did when we were having problems with a neighbour's cat, but I imagine it varies place to place.
   54. asdf1234 Posted: August 22, 2011 at 02:56 AM (#3905699)
On cats: 1) cats' habit of tormenting small prey is mostly beneficial to cat and prey alike, as it provides the prey with more opportunities to escape while allowing the cats hone their hunting skills.

2) if you have neighbors who won't bring their cats indoors, show them a photo of what coyotes do to cats when they kill them. If that doesn't move your neighbors to action, they're probably sociopaths.
   55. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: August 22, 2011 at 03:21 AM (#3905710)
On cats: 1) cats' habit of tormenting small prey is mostly beneficial to cat and prey alike, as it provides the prey with more opportunities to escape while allowing the cats hone their hunting skills.


This is how I feel about waterboarding.
   56. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2011 at 03:22 AM (#3905711)
2) if you have neighbors who won't bring their cats indoors, show them a photo of what coyotes do to cats when they kill them.


That might work, if we had coyotes in the Florida Keys.

It might also cost them to bail it out. It did when we were having problems with a neighbour's cat, but I imagine it varies place to place.


I dunno. This place I live is so ####### cat friendly, it may cost ME to bail it out.
   57. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: August 22, 2011 at 03:36 AM (#3905720)
2) if you have neighbors who won't bring their cats indoors, show them a photo of what coyotes do to cats when they kill them. If that doesn't move your neighbors to action, they're probably sociopaths.

I don't know. If somebody randomly shows me pictures of a cat after being dismembered by coyotes, I'd be inclines to think they were a sociaopath.
   58. Stevis Posted: August 22, 2011 at 03:49 AM (#3905724)
That might work, if we had coyotes in the Florida Keys.


Well, you're just going to have to introduce them then.
   59. Something Other Posted: August 22, 2011 at 04:17 AM (#3905737)
Might want to confront your neighbors, rather than taking it out on the cat.

I like both dogs and cats.
It's the people who own them that piss me off. Especially dogs. Many's the day and night I've enjoyed less because of ceaseless barking.
   60. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 22, 2011 at 11:17 AM (#3905790)
Florida has gators, right?
   61. McCoy Posted: August 22, 2011 at 11:52 AM (#3905797)
I love cats, but anyone who leaves them outside these days is inviting danger

or inviting life.
   62. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:08 PM (#3905799)
Florida has gators, right?


Not the Keys. We have a few crocs, but they rarely come on land.
   63. Greg K Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:22 PM (#3905810)
Yeah I have to admit, as a long time cat person the thought of having an indoor only cat makes me sad. Every cat I've ever had has just loved the outdoors too much for me to take it away from her. My parents present cat once got lost up at our cottage a couple hours north of Toronto and lived on its own for a few months in the forests of the Haliburton Highlands until a Boy Scouts Camp caretaker came across her. My parents don't take her up the cottage anymore, but she more or less lives outside in the city.

No coyotes in the suburbs of Toronto that I'm aware of, though I did once have a cat that kept getting into ill-conceived fights with racoons.

I actually saw a cat in a pub last night, napping on a window sill. Apparently it was a bit of a reputation with the regulars so I was advised not to pet it.

Also where I currently live has a local stray (I think. I've seen it fed at several different houses on my street so I'm not sure if anyone owns it). He/She's a friendly critter and is usually on patrol late at night, keeps away the rioters.

EDIT: To be honest it never even occured to me that cats would bother neighbours. It sounds like a few of you have some ####### cats in your neighbourhoods. I suppose it's possible most cats do stuff like that and I just never hear about it or see it, but it seems like strange behaviour to me.
   64. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:53 PM (#3905823)
My cat just had his gall bladder removed and a biopsy done on his liver, pancreas and intestines. I better not mention to Harveys how much this cost me. Let's just say I am suddenly very interested in this whole concept of the stay-cation. I'm not broke, I'm environmentally aware!
   65. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 22, 2011 at 03:36 PM (#3905956)
I like both dogs and cats.


Same here. Was raised by a cat person & always had cats, then married a dog person (we're divorced, but she became a cat person, & so did her oldest daughter, judging from Facebook) & was won over by that species as well. Lost my last dog in around 10/1/06 but would love to have another, if the money was there (it's not). Had run out of cats in 1/97, but brought in a feral kitten last Columbus Day; his half-brother joined the the household in late May.

In the meantime, I'm still feeding the feral colony of a couple of dozen or so (& counting, of course0 that produced those two, going through some 55 lbs. of catfood from Sam's Club every two weeks. (At my request, the local spay-&-neuter place tried to arrange for a mass trap-&-release but couldn't scare up enough volunteers. Maybe as soon as the weather gets cooler ...)

I dunno. People who hate animals of any sort strike me as very possibly mentally ill.
   66. SoSH U at work Posted: August 22, 2011 at 03:59 PM (#3905968)
EDIT: To be honest it never even occured to me that cats would bother neighbours. It sounds like a few of you have some ####### cats in your neighbourhoods. I suppose it's possible most cats do stuff like that and I just never hear about it or see it, but it seems like strange behaviour to me.


Same here. We've always had outdoor cats (technically, we've always had an outdoor cat, since we don't keep more than one at a time), and we've never had a neighbor complain. As far as I can tell, our cat spends most of its time in our backyard and behind it (which is public land) and doesn't venture much onto the neighbor's property. I honestly never realized that so many felines were capable of causing the kind of trouble Misirlou has faced.
   67. bunyon Posted: August 22, 2011 at 04:03 PM (#3905972)
I dunno. People who hate animals of any sort strike me as very possibly mentally ill.

Hey, let's even extend this to kids. If you don't already love the object, it's various bizarre behavior and irrational mood changes are annoying. So, if you view your pet shits in the seat of a car, you view that as cute and lovable because you love it. If your kid is screaming it's lungs out on an airplane, you are concerned for it.

If you don't love the shitt ing pet or the screaming kid, it is merely annoying.

There is no "correct" perspective here. Just different ones. I would say, however, that if you own a pet and care for its well-being, you won't let it torment your neighbors. I love cats. I love dogs. I'd have no problem at all with any action misirlou takes toward a cat that is continually on his property ####### with his stuff.

Think of it this way, if you let your cat out, it will kill birds and rodents. You'll nod and talk about the nature of the beast. Okay, fine, survival of the fittest. Only, your cat isn't as fit as a guy with a shotgun.

As I say, I love cats and dogs (and kids). But I have absolutely come across examples of each (not the kids) that I'd kill in a second.
   68. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 22, 2011 at 04:11 PM (#3905977)
As I say, I love cats and dogs (and kids). But I have absolutely come across examples of each (not the kids) that I'd kill in a second.


Which I can't say I have. Adults, though ...

Isn't killing animals (unless, of course, one calls oneself a hunter, which brings up all sorts of societal considerations, of course) supposedly a hallmark of incipient serial killers?

Hating a cat who defecates in one's car seat is, to me, rather different from hating cats, period. Obviously, I'm (a) biased & (b) no expert, but isn't ailurophobia by definition a psychological disorder?
   69. bunyon Posted: August 22, 2011 at 04:13 PM (#3905980)
Same here. We've always had outdoor cats (technically, we've always had an outdoor cat, since we don't keep more than one at a time), and we've never had a neighbor complain. As far as I can tell, our cat spends most of its time in our backyard and behind it (which is public land) and doesn't venture much onto the neighbor's property. I honestly never realized that so many felines were capable of causing the kind of trouble Misirlou has faced.

And I'd say either your neighbors never complained or your cats were unusually docile. The nicest, sweetest cat I ever knew (seriously, I loved this cat) killed a neighbor's kid's pet rabbit (the rabbit had escaped from an indoor pen, gotten out and, the cat, who could see the rabbit through a window on a daily basis and must have just been waiting for the day pounced, from nowhere). The neighbors were insanely nice about it and my friend bought them a new rabbit.

Point is, cats are cats. They will do stuff like this. Just about every dog I've known, including some of my own, have awakened neighbors with barking. I think, mostly, pet-owners are delusional about how sweet and civilized their pets are. As someone above said, this is mostly on the owners. Animals are what they are, it's only humans who treat them as if they're different just because we give them a different name. My first reaction wouldn't be to kill the animal, but if an owner won't control a pet, no one should have to put up with it doing them damage.
   70. bunyon Posted: August 22, 2011 at 04:17 PM (#3905982)
Isn't killing animals supposedly a hallmark of incipient serial killers?

Cold blooded killing, yes. Killing because it keeps ripping your garden out? Threatens your kids? Keeps you awake all night? $hits on the seat of your car? I wouldn't take those as signs of incipient serial killers.

And, sure, I've met plenty of adults I wouldn't mind killing. Fortunately, I've been civilized by women-folk.
   71. hokieneer Posted: August 22, 2011 at 04:19 PM (#3905984)
My cat just had his gall bladder removed and a biopsy done on his liver, pancreas and intestines. I better not mention to Harveys how much this cost me. Let's just say I am suddenly very interested in this whole concept of the stay-cation. I'm not broke, I'm environmentally aware!

In the meantime, I'm still feeding the feral colony of a couple of dozen or so (& counting, of course0 that produced those two, going through some 55 lbs. of catfood from Sam's Club every two weeks. (At my request, the local spay-&-neuter place tried to arrange for a mass trap-&-release but couldn't scare up enough volunteers. Maybe as soon as the weather gets cooler ...)

I dunno. People who hate animals of any sort strike me as very possibly mentally ill.


And people that are willing to spend that much money on a pet or on an army of wild killers, have either way more disposable income than I will ever see in a dozen lifetimes or are just certifiable.
   72. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 22, 2011 at 04:21 PM (#3905987)
And people that are willing to spend that much money on a pet or on an army of wild killers, have either way more disposable income than I will ever see in a dozen lifetimes or are just certifiable.


Or are, y'know, not apparently self-obsessed pricks. There's that possibility, too.

(And if you don't have an average of $14 a week of disposable income, which is what I spend on bulk catfood for the ferals, you're probably homeless & typing this on a library computer, so probably you won't see this till you get more screen time tomorrow morning, anyway. What's for lunch at the soup kitchen, btw?)
   73. PepTech Posted: August 22, 2011 at 04:36 PM (#3905998)
I like and own both dogs and cats.

That said, any dog that will fit in a blender, belongs in a blender. Dogs should be larger than cats.
   74. Shazbot Posted: August 22, 2011 at 04:47 PM (#3906004)
I grew up on a great deal of semi-open farmland with some trees and plenty of wild animals and coyotes. I did have a couple of outdoor cats, but honestly they were more risks related to them potentially getting killed than killing something. One of them was a big fat one that loved nothing better than killing mice, shrews, and small birds, and the other one was a skinny mean monster that wouldn't kill often, but would eat most of it. When I've got deer tripping over each other in front of my house, and have seen rabbits get chased down by coyotes many times, I'm not worried about my cat killing something at night.

Mind you, I don't think I could have an outdoor cat there now, but not because of the neighbors.

There are some people who put video cameras on their cats to see what they do all the time. Had they came around a few decades earlier I bet I could have gotten some interesting footage.
   75. Clemenza Posted: August 22, 2011 at 04:53 PM (#3906010)
I hate cats, my wife loves them so, natually, we have two cats. However, we also have a big fluffy dog named Fenway so there's that.

I think it is insane that anyone who owns an animal and lives in even a remotely developed area would allow it to roam free. You pet's desire to have the run of the neighborhood does not trump my desire to not have them dump on my doorstep, lawn, car, whatever. If you feel keeping a cat penned up inside is inhumane either by it a big leash, move or don't get one.
   76. flournoy Posted: August 22, 2011 at 05:03 PM (#3906019)
You ever go to someone's house and have their dog jump on you, slobber all over you, and bite your pants? These people will always just laugh it off as cute. "Oh, isn't that sweet, Fido loves you!" Well guess what, I hate Fido. Get it away from me. Those people are the worst.
   77. Shazbot Posted: August 22, 2011 at 05:10 PM (#3906024)
What's 'remotely developed', Clemenza?

Dogs stayed in or went on leash here, for example. And although they would get excited about new people, they didn't slobber or jump or bite, and got used to them quickly.

Most pet behaviour issues are on the owner, as they always are.
   78. Eddo Posted: August 22, 2011 at 05:23 PM (#3906037)
Cold blooded killing, yes. Killing because it keeps ripping your garden out? Threatens your kids? Keeps you awake all night? $hits on the seat of your car? I wouldn't take those as signs of incipient serial killers.

The bolded one isn't, but the rest are getting close. Or at least indicative of a terrible rage problem.

Think of it this way: let's say a person keeps ripping up your garden. Would you be justified in any sort of physical harm? Or keeping you awake all night with loud noises? Or defecating in your car?

Of course, if a person threatens your children, you have every right to defend them physically.

EDIT: My basic thought is that killing any animal of moderate intelligence (like a dog or a cat or a horse or a pig) simply because it annoys you is wrong. If it's continued behavior, confront its owner or go to the authorities (as you would if a person was doing the annoying behavior).
   79. Russ Posted: August 22, 2011 at 05:27 PM (#3906041)
What's 'remotely developed', Clemenza?


If I can see your house from my house, it's more than remotely developed. I agree with Clemenza... people who let their pets range free are menaces to society.
   80. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2011 at 05:30 PM (#3906045)
Think of it this way: let's say a person keeps ripping up your garden. Would you be justified in any sort of physical harm? Or keeping you awake all night with loud noises? Or defecating in your car?


If a person does that, there are legal remedies. If a cat does the same thing, there are not. If I call the cops that a vagrant is shitting on the seat of my car, they will arrest him. If I call the cops that a neighbor's cat is shitting on the seat of my car, they will tell me to not leave the windows down anymore and to get a life.
   81. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: August 22, 2011 at 05:34 PM (#3906050)
I'd prefer not to have pets, have two cats. Cats are cool, but I wish the one that 'picked' me wouldn't lick my face in the middle of the night, etc... I want them (roughly) as independent as possible. Will never have a dog (see flournoy's 76). Think having an outdoor cat in an urban/suburban environment is generally a bad idea (can inconvenience others, shortens the pet's lifespan).

Point is, cats are cats. They will do stuff like this. Just about every dog I've known, including some of my own, have awakened neighbors with barking. I think, mostly, pet-owners are delusional about how sweet and civilized their pets are. As someone above said, this is mostly on the owners. Animals are what they are, it's only humans who treat them as if they're different just because we give them a different name. My first reaction wouldn't be to kill the animal, but if an owner won't control a pet, no one should have to put up with it doing them damage.

Quoted for emphasis.
   82. SoSH U at work Posted: August 22, 2011 at 05:35 PM (#3906053)
I can't recall ever seeing my cat take a dump outside, and I've always spent a lot of time outdoors. Are all of you certain that it's a cat taking a dump in your yard/ripping up your garden/being a general nuisance and not one of the multitudes of other animals that might roam there*.

* My neighborhood would easily qualify beyond remotely developed under any reasonable use of the phrase, but the number of animals that live in the general area - rabbits, raccoons, hell, even the occasional beaver - is rather impressive.
   83. flournoy Posted: August 22, 2011 at 05:36 PM (#3906055)
If I caught someone shitting on my car seat (and I never leave my windows down or my car unlocked, so this would indicate another problem as well), I would definitely work some physical harm into my schedule.
   84. Alex_Lewis Posted: August 22, 2011 at 05:37 PM (#3906057)
I see feral or outdoor cats all the time. Never once have I thought, "Accursed feline! Were it not for that cat, the neighborhood would be a livable place. <spots a cat turd> ARG! THE STREETS HAVE ONCE AGAIN BEEN BEFOULED BY THAT FOUR-FOOTED MENACE!" I also don't flip out about horses pooping all over hiking trails, though to my mind those monumental shitters are a far greater nuisance. Mostly when I see outdoor cats, I give 'em a light scritch before going on my way. Occasionally I wonder what they've been up. And there, my musings end.

As an aside, I've seen dogs cause far more problems than cats. Heck, near my dad's place, there's this coven of lowlifes who must, at all times, own 1-2 pit bulls. The last pit bull pulled a foreign exchange student off of her bike and would have savaged her but for the intervention of strangers. That particular monster was destroyed, but has since been replaced. Complaints to the police do nothing. For all the possible shitting and rabbit murder that they may do, it is rare for cats to fatally maul human beings of any stripe. Note on cats and rabbits: There is a house two blocks from my own that prominently allows their pet rabbits AND pet cats to frolic together on the front lawn. Typically, this is the last of my daily sights on the way home from work. It's somewhat endearing; perhaps it will all end in tears.
   85. phredbird Posted: August 22, 2011 at 05:44 PM (#3906064)
i can't summon any hatred for the brewers. they are kicking butt and deserve their success right now. the cards, on the other hand, are doing all kinds of crazy and i'm exasperated.

cats? they are like tony larussa. if its not your cat, you hate it like poison, if its yours it does the stupid things cats do, but its awesome.
   86. cardsfanboy Posted: August 22, 2011 at 05:50 PM (#3906067)
You ever go to someone's house and have their dog jump on you, slobber all over you, and bite your pants? These people will always just laugh it off as cute. "Oh, isn't that sweet, Fido loves you!" Well guess what, I hate Fido. Get it away from me. Those people are the worst.


My mom's facebook status

TO NON-PET OWNERS who visit our homes. Don't complain about our pets. (1) They live here, you don't. (2) If you don't want their hair on your clothes, stay off the furniture. That's why they call it 'Fur'-nitu re. (3) Chances are, I love my pets more than I like you. (4) To you, they are animals. To me, they are family ..who are furry, walk on all fours & don't talk back.
   87. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2011 at 05:51 PM (#3906068)
I see feral or outdoor cats all the time. Never once have I thought, "Accursed feline! Were it not for that cat, the neighborhood would be a livable place. <spots a cat turd> ARG! THE STREETS HAVE ONCE AGAIN BEEN BEFOULED BY THAT FOUR-FOOTED MENACE!" I also don't flip out about horses pooping all over hiking trails, though to my mind those monumental shitters are a far greater nuisance.


Typical BTF bullshit. Yes, because getting annoyed when a cat shits on my car or on my workbench is exactly the same thing.

Are all of you certain that it's a cat taking a dump in your yard/ripping up your garden/being a general nuisance and not one of the multitudes of other animals that might roam there*.


I am. I've seen the damned thing running out of my shed or jumping out the window of my car shortly before finding a warm steamer.
   88. bunyon Posted: August 22, 2011 at 06:00 PM (#3906082)
Cold blooded killing, yes. Killing because it keeps ripping your garden out? Threatens your kids? Keeps you awake all night? $hits on the seat of your car? I wouldn't take those as signs of incipient serial killers.


The bolded one isn't, but the rest are getting close. Or at least indicative of a terrible rage problem.

Think of it this way: let's say a person keeps ripping up your garden. Would you be justified in any sort of physical harm? Or keeping you awake all night with loud noises? Or defecating in your car?

Of course, if a person threatens your children, you have every right to defend them physically.

EDIT: My basic thought is that killing any animal of moderate intelligence (like a dog or a cat or a horse or a pig) simply because it annoys you is wrong. If it's continued behavior, confront its owner or go to the authorities (as you would if a person was doing the annoying behavior).


So you think no action is warranted? Ah, well, it is a cat, I must suffer? What do you do if a fly is buzzing around your bedroom keeping you awake?

Look, I said my first move wouldn't be to kill, but I shouldn't have to be inconvenienced just so you can call yourself a cat-owner while lettng the cat spend 90% of its time roaming the neighborhood killing things. Along with Alex, I, too, will most often give a friendly cat a scratch behind the ears. I like them. I like their independence. But part of being an independent animal is having other animals, whose territory you've invaded or with whom you're competing for resources, try to to kill you. YOu can't have it both ways: either these are pets, and should be controlled by their owners, or they're simply part of nature, allowed to kill and be killed like any other.

Also, as people have said, if the police* took calls about nuisance animals seriously, this would much less of a problem.


* Or someone. Anyone. If you read the stories above, owners are confronted. They either do nothing or get mad at you for not finding Fluffy cute and adorable.


Oh, and, no, mostly rabbits, squirrels and other assorted rodents chew up my garden. I have, no kidding here, thought of getting a cat to protect the garden. And, yes, if I could get a shot at said rodent, I'd have no problem killing them. If the world could use less of something, squirrels wouldn't be at the top of the list, but they'd be solidly top ten.
   89. SoSH U at work Posted: August 22, 2011 at 06:03 PM (#3906086)
I am. I've seen the damned thing running out of my shed or jumping out the window of my car shortly before finding a warm steamer.


I believe it in your case, though I wonder if the cat just has a specific problem with you. (-:

I don't even like cats (the wife does), but I don't think I've ever been remotely bothered by one either, so these horror stories some of you are sharing seem like a completely different species than the one I'm familiar with.
   90. bunyon Posted: August 22, 2011 at 06:04 PM (#3906089)
cfb: I completely agree with your mom, in that it is her house. Of course, if I come into your house, I can't complain how it is in there.
   91. Alex_Lewis Posted: August 22, 2011 at 06:06 PM (#3906092)
Typical BTF ########. Yes, because getting annoyed when a cat shits on my car or on my workbench is exactly the same thing.


Relax. I don't begrudge your ire. Kill away, if you must (though that wouldn't be my response). Frankly, anyone who has an outdoor cat should embrace the fact that the creature's life is in eternal peril. I remember a story about a fellow, a farmer, who kept roughly five cats on the premises at any given time. For rodents and such. He stopped giving them names quite some time ago. Just goes with numbers. At the time I heard the story, they into the 30s. Some might find that callous; to me, it sounds about right.

People who own cats, and think they are part time pets, to be let loose to do whatever the hell they feel like doing most of the time, are the ####### scourge of the earth


Quoted to emphasize the hyperbole.
   92. McCoy Posted: August 22, 2011 at 06:25 PM (#3906106)
So you think no action is warranted?

Well, that isn't what he said.

Isn't property law pretty clear on this? Do you really want to get in front of jury with a case where you killed something called "Fluffy" or "Tinkers" because it annoyed you?
   93. LionoftheSenate Posted: August 22, 2011 at 06:34 PM (#3906113)
After this weekend, I have one thing to say: F the Brewers. Seriously.


Sounds like a small market Mets fan.
   94. Ron J Posted: August 22, 2011 at 06:44 PM (#3906124)
#55 Cats of course are pro-waterboarding. They just can't easily make it work in practice. Give them time though.
   95. JoeHova Posted: August 22, 2011 at 06:47 PM (#3906125)
TO NON-PET OWNERS who visit our homes. Don't complain about our pets. (1) They live here, you don't. (2) If you don't want their hair on your clothes, stay off the furniture. That's why they call it 'Fur'-nitu re. (3) Chances are, I love my pets more than I like you. (4) To you, they are animals. To me, they are family ..who are furry, walk on all fours & don't talk back.

Wow, I bet people just love going to visit her.
   96. bunyon Posted: August 22, 2011 at 07:04 PM (#3906141)
Isn't property law pretty clear on this? Do you really want to get in front of jury with a case where you killed something called "Fluffy" or "Tinkers" because it annoyed you?

Wouldn't worry about it in the slightest. As I read it, there is no way any result but a hung jury is possible. Quite possibly members of the jury would end up slugging each other.
   97. Alex_Lewis Posted: August 22, 2011 at 07:11 PM (#3906147)
Wouldn't worry about it in the slightest. As I read it, there is no way any result but a hung jury is possible. Quite possibly members of the jury would end up slugging each other.


I'm pretty sure that it would end up in Small Claims, max, but probably not even that far.
   98. bunyon Posted: August 22, 2011 at 07:20 PM (#3906151)
Not to hijack this animal topic, but the Cards have fallen to 8.5 back with 35 (for them) to play (the Brewers have 34 left).

They play each other six times. Assume the Cardinals sweep. That puts them 2.5 back with 29 to play.

To tie for the division, the Cardinals have to lose two fewer games than the Brewers do in ther remaining 28 games.

So, if the Brewers play close to their current percentage, and finish 17-11, the Cardinals would have to finish (edit) 20-9 to tie. Doable. Of course, that would really mean the Brewers finish 17-17, or that they play .500 the rest of the way. And that the Cards finish (edit) 26-9. That really only looks realistic if you assume the Cards sweep 6 from Milwaukee.

If the Cards take 5 of 6, they'll be 4.5 back of the Brewers and need to lose four fewer games than the Brewers. Again, if the Brewers go 17-11 in their other remaining games, the Cardinals must finish 22-7 to tie. 23-6 to win outright. That seems unlikely.

If the Cards take 4 of 6 - win each series - and the Brewers finish 17-11 otherwise, they'd be 6.5 back and need to finish 24-5 to tie.

If the Cards and Brewers split their remaining six games and the Brewers go win 17 other games, the Cardinals can't catch them.

To sum up, the Cards pretty much need to sweep two series against the Brewers to have a shot. And they need to turn things around today. If they lose another couple games in the standings, it's over.


Also of note, the Braves have an 8 game lead in the wildcard. The Giants better get going.
   99. SoSH U at work Posted: August 22, 2011 at 07:23 PM (#3906155)
Also of note, the Braves have an 8 game lead in the wildcard. The Giants better get going.


I suspect the Giants don't have their sights on the wild card.
   100. Alex_Lewis Posted: August 22, 2011 at 07:30 PM (#3906163)
I suspect the Giants don't have their sights on the wild card.


It would take a staggering collapse on the part of the Braves. And in my experience as a Giants fan, the Braves do not typically suffer such a fate. For the Giants, the road to the post season goes through Arizona.
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