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Thursday, April 26, 2012

Rovell: Shake Shack, Coming To A Ballpark Near You?

Money!

The burger, frozen custard joint of famed restaurateur Danny Meyer is known to be so packed that fans at Citi Field get in line before the game and are willing to miss several innings to enjoy the grub.

In fact, business has been so good to Meyer that he told CNBC that he is actively looking to put his brands, including Shake Shack, El Verano, Blue Smoke and Box Frites, into more stadiums and arenas around the country. Aside from Citi Field and Nationals Park, the only other Shake Shack at a sporting venue is at Saratoga Race Track.

“We don’t ever want to be Aramark or Levy,” said Meyer, referring to two of the companies that cater to sports fans. “What we want to be is the supplement to what is already at ballparks. So, we’re the frosting on the cake. Not the cake itself.”

Meyer wouldn’t give specifics of just how well his company, Union Square Events, is doing at ballparks, but it’s known that while concessionaires pay for the rights to serve fans food at stadiums, Meyer doesn’t pay a dime. He merely sells the value added that his brands are to the fan’s experience.

“Owners think a utility infielder that can help a team win is worth $800,000, so what’s it worth for something that will give fans a great experience even when the team loses?,” Meyer asks.

Greg Franklin Posted: April 26, 2012 at 05:54 PM | 137 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Koot Posted: April 26, 2012 at 08:33 PM (#4117192)
I clicked on this hoping it was something like the bang bus.
   2. boteman Posted: April 26, 2012 at 09:56 PM (#4117243)
Hey look! A press release thinly disguised as a news article.
   3. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 26, 2012 at 10:32 PM (#4117254)
Said before but there is really nothing special about Shake Shack or any of Danny's places at Nationals Park and they are way overpriced for what you get. Last year I tried some trio of tacos thingy and for 8 bucks or whatever it was I got three tiny little tacos with barely anything on them. Pass. There is also a regular Shake Shack near where I live and for the amount of money they charge you would think they would actually put some food in your bag. Instead you get this tiny little burger and this tiny little shake whereas there are at least 3 to 4 other burger joints around it that for the same price you get a big burger and it tastes good as well.
   4. phredbird Posted: April 26, 2012 at 10:55 PM (#4117264)
finally tried the five guys place down the street from where i work. the burger was really good, but the fries are just awful. don't know if i'll go back.
   5. Why Bloody Valdespin? Posted: April 26, 2012 at 11:05 PM (#4117273)
Shake Shack isn't anything special for a burger place in the middle of a city, but it's exceptional as far as ballpark food goes, and, at least at Citi Field, not any more expensive than the alternatives. Same for Blue Smoke and Box Frites. Haven't tried the taco place yet, and didn't know they were all created by the same guy until reading the blurb above. All four places are near each other in the concourse behind CF at Citi.

...the fries are just awful.

But they give you sooo many!
   6. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 26, 2012 at 11:14 PM (#4117275)
Shake Shack isn't anything special for a burger place in the middle of a city, but it's exceptional as far as ballpark food goes

I only have one question about Shake Shack: Can you get a ####### RARE hamburger with real blood oozing out of it? Medium or well done red meat is the equivalent of dog food, but that's what you get at most every fast food place nowadays.

(And yes, if people want to blame this sad situation on the food nannies, this is one time I won't argue, but I'm still not sure why you can get a rare burger at most sit-down places but not at even the most upscale fast food joint.)
   7. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 26, 2012 at 11:37 PM (#4117286)
Shake Shack isn't anything special for a burger place in the middle of a city, but it's exceptional as far as ballpark food goes

Perhaps if you are a 1%er who can order 7 meals and combine them all to form one meal otherwise I don't see it. Nationals Park also have a Ben's Chili Bowl which cranks out a pretty good half-smoke. Nor do I see Shake Shack burger beating out your basic stadium hot dog.

5 Guys fries are horrible, expensive, and they give you too many.
   8. Why Bloody Valdespin? Posted: April 27, 2012 at 12:06 AM (#4117298)
Perhaps if you are a 1%er who can order 7 meals and combine them all to form one meal otherwise I don't see it.

I don't understand this statement. It's not a response to what you quoted. If it's a response to the part of the sentence you didn't quote, well, Nationals Park concession prices aren't really relevant to my statement about Shake Shack prices vs. alternatives at Citi Field.

Nor do I see Shake Shack burger beating out your basic stadium hot dog.

I suggest you visit an ophthalmologist.
   9. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 27, 2012 at 12:10 AM (#4117300)
It has nothing to do with the price but of the portion size and the lack anything really noteworthy about the product.

I suggest you visit an ophthalmologist.


Why do you hate baseball?
   10. Why Bloody Valdespin? Posted: April 27, 2012 at 12:12 AM (#4117303)
Hey! You're the America-hating taco orderer!
   11. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: April 27, 2012 at 01:56 AM (#4117333)
Why do people eat this ####? Everything in your life will be better - your health, your energy level, your look, your physical abilities - if you just cut out fast food.

I assume the mouthbreathers out there gobble this #### up, but it seems like Primates - a savvy, well educated group of folks - do too. I don't get it.
   12. Tuque Posted: April 27, 2012 at 03:04 AM (#4117338)
Does everyone here love tacos? A (female) friend of mine once posited that tacos are a masculine food. Apart from the obvious, visually metaphorical nature of tacos, I found this hard to believe...but have since discovered that dudes really do inexplicably love the #### out of tacos.

Including me. Tacos are ####### awesome.
   13. Bhaakon Posted: April 27, 2012 at 03:52 AM (#4117342)
(And yes, if people want to blame this sad situation on the food nannies, this is one time I won't argue, but I'm still not sure why you can get a rare burger at most sit-down places but not at even the most upscale fast food joint.)


Don't most fast food places use pre-made frozen patties? In my experience, those either come out still frozen in the middle or well-done shoe leather.

Why do people eat this ####? Everything in your life will be better - your health, your energy level, your look, your physical abilities - if you just cut out fast food.


Depends what you're cutting it out for. A lot of the stuff you get in restaurants isn't any better nutritionally, just more skillfully prepared.
   14. Flynn Posted: April 27, 2012 at 04:20 AM (#4117344)
I've worked with Michelin starred chefs, and their advice to pretty much every problem young chefs ask them about is "Add more butter!"
   15. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 04:49 AM (#4117345)
Shake Shack, the original at least, is high quality food...unless you are saying never eat a hamburger, in.which case, #### off.
   16. frannyzoo Posted: April 27, 2012 at 08:43 AM (#4117374)
I've found, and it's evidenced here...people don't like to be told what to eat. So let me do that now.

I've never seen the taco allure, primarily because of the logistical, gravitational and brittleness problems involved in taco shells, etc. Might I humbly suggest trying chilaquiles instead? Same tortilla, meat, etc. goodness/badness in a more convenient package, in terms of physics. Plus you get loads more sauce/seasoning this way.

As for fast food. Hitler. There, I said it.
   17. Lassus Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:05 AM (#4117385)
I only have one question about Shake Shack: Can you get a ####### RARE hamburger with real blood oozing out of it? Medium or well done red meat is the equivalent of dog food, but that's what you get at most every fast food place nowadays.

Why in the name of god would you even want anything done rare at a fast food place anyhow?


Does everyone here love tacos?

Eh. Not really. I love a good burrito and most other mexican food, but tacos really bore me. I have never once in my life thought "damn, I really want a taco."
   18. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:14 AM (#4117395)
Shake Shack makes a very good hamburger. It's a delicious, and I don't think it's a "savvy, well-educated" move to avoid delicious food out of principle.

I went to Citi for the first time last week, and there's a Blue Ribbon counter right next to the Shake Shack counter. I got a pulled pork sandwich (darn good and just $8) after waiting for about a minute. The Shake Shack line was at least 30 minutes long. Shake Shack is good, but it's not that good.

To Andy, the Shake Shack burger basically comes out medium. It's a "west coast" style burger, not a "pub" style burger, so the patty isn't think enough to both get a good hard sear and have that medium-rare, warm and red center. The sear is done very well, it's seasoned well, and the meat is high-quality. Good burger, especially if you don't have to wait a half hour to get it.
   19. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:16 AM (#4117397)
I love a good burrito and most other mexican food, but tacos really bore me. I have never once in my life thought "damn, I really want a taco."
To me, a taco is a perfect vehicle for concentrated flavors. The starch is just a light tortilla, and then you get the spiced, stewed meat, the sauces, the fresh cilantro and onions, the lime. It's a little flavor bomb. A burrito is more of a calorie bomb with some flavor. When I want Mexican food, usually it's tacos I want.
   20. villageidiom Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:25 AM (#4117404)
Five Guys fries...

(1) Not good. Unless you get the cajun fries, which are awesome.

(2) The longer they sit in the bag, the worse they get. The steam makes them soggy. When they're first served they're (for my tastes) just the right level of crispness. (If you order online, they make your burger to be ready in time for your arrival, but they don't even bother cooking your fries until you show up, for this very reason.)
   21. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:31 AM (#4117412)
I only have one question about Shake Shack: Can you get a ####### RARE hamburger with real blood oozing out of it? Medium or well done red meat is the equivalent of dog food, but that's what you get at most every fast food place nowadays.

Why in the name of god would you even want anything done rare at a fast food place anyhow?


When the Roy Rogers chain first opened up, their rare hamburgers were a selling point**, and they were actually very good. This was in the early 70's, but it only lasted a few years until they just went the usual "overcook them so we can't get sued" route.

But it's not just the low rent places. That "Cheeburger Cheeburger" chain makes a big noise about "100% all-natural Angus guaranteed to have no additives, no antibiotics and no added hormones according to a verified 120 day affidavit". With all that hype, you'd think you'd be able to get a raw burger if you wanted, but no---only medium. It's like paying $200 to watch the Redskins.

**And to Matt's point about "west coast" vs. "pub" burgers: The Roy Rogers burgers were standard "quarter pound" size, not particularly thick at all. And yet they still oozed blood.

   22. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:31 AM (#4117414)
I've enjoyed the Five Guys burger (twice), but it's just so greasy. It makes you feel unattractive on the inside.
   23. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4117416)
The original Shake Shack burgers in MAdison Square park were made from brisket ground fresh at Danny Meyer's Michelin starred restaurant Eleven Madison Park across the street. Maybe Robert in Manhattan Beach has the wrong idea about Shake Shack, but it's not some corporate megachain pumped full of pink slime and preservatives. The reason it initially took off is because people appreciated the quality of the ingredients and the deliciousness of the burgers.

As for Jolly Old St. Neck Wound: I feel your pain for the most part. I once got in a fight with the manager at UBurger because they have a big "We Cook To Order" sign above the counter but wouldn't make my burger medium rare. However, when you are talking a thin, fast food style patty, it is really difficult to hit that mark, one, and not really necessary, provided the burger has plenty of fat content and is griddled reasonbly fresh (no grills, please!). SS burgers are juicy and delicious despite being cooked through. Also, "oozing blood"? There is no "blood" in a rare steak. Blood doesn't vanish when you cook it.

Now, Yankee Stadium has Johnny Rockets, which, while better than I remembered, doesn't really hold a candle. Though it is possible that the fries are better.
   24. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:36 AM (#4117417)
Oh, also, Fuddruckers is an example of a chain fast food place that will cook to any temp. And they are pretty dang good too. So it CAN be done. They are a little thicker than your average fast food burger though.

   25. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:38 AM (#4117419)
frannyzoo: I like tacos, and it really has to do with the textural elements. Crunchy, crispy, cheesy, gooey, etc. all together. I generally find Taco Bell gross but when they did that crunchwrap supreme thing with the burrito tortilla wrapped around the crunchy tortilla layer with all the stuff inside...that was a guilty pleasure. It's all about the textures.

edit: my wife is a gourmand and oeneophile, but once in a while even she wants to have "Taco Night" and make those high school cafeteria style tacos with the Old El Paso kit. It's total junk food but there's something fun and nostalgic about it.
   26. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:47 AM (#4117429)
There is also a regular Shake Shack near where I live and for the amount of money they charge you would think they would actually put some food in your bag. Instead you get this tiny little burger and this tiny little shake whereas there are at least 3 to 4 other burger joints around it that for the same price you get a big burger and it tastes good as well.

McCoy, are you referecing the Shake Shack south of Dupont? If so, what's your take on the Black and Orange burger joint just up Connecticut? (I have been on a mini-health kick for a while, so my fast food stops in the neighborhood have been pretty much confined to SweetGreen and Chopt'd.)
   27. Liver of blaspheming 'zop Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:49 AM (#4117432)
To Andy, the Shake Shack burger basically comes out medium. It's a "west coast" style burger, not a "pub" style burger, so the patty isn't think enough to both get a good hard sear and have that medium-rare, warm and red center. The sear is done very well, it's seasoned well, and the meat is high-quality. Good burger, especially if you don't have to wait a half hour to get it.



Well, that's not west coast style - that thin patty griddle style was invented on the east coast.

The problem is that Shake Shack ##### it up. Not only can you not order rare there (though they will get you "medium rare", as if it matters with a patty that thin), but you can't order a crispy burger. They'll TAKE your order, sure, but I've never had a proper, griddled-in-its-own-fat crust on a Shake Shack burger in years. I don't know if its the temp of their griddle, or that they've designed the griddles to get rid of the fat so that the nutritional info is less obscene, but, they only cook to a narrow range of medium rare to medium well, and they never, ever, ever seem to get a crust on their patties. That, folks, is a shonda - a good burger shack burger should ALWAYS have a crust.

The key to shake shack, IMO, is that the patties are ultra-high in fat, and the meat is reasonable quality, so when cooked to their usual soggy "medium", rather than getting the mealy-dog-food texture of the popular 90/10 patties, they stay rich and fatty. But textually, the burgers suck - a limp, greasy patty on a limp, greasy bun coated in greasy cheese. Hell, even the new "smokeshack" burger they introduced has limp, non-crispy bacon on it. Given the popularity, it seems that the world likes a burger that melds into a greasy, mushy, meaty ball, but I think its a objectively inferior style.

EDIT to add: My favorite fast-food style burger joint in NYC was this shitty hole in he wall called "Fresh n Fast", a In and Out take-off, on 23rd and Park. Burgers came out just right, with a crispy edge, and the buns had just a kiss of toast to keep them integral. Really, really good - better than In and Out, after they got into a rhythm. Then they closed a few weeks back. I thought I was the only one, and then I saw on the NY mag food blog a post saying that Wylie Dufresne was ######## because his favorite burger in NYC - Fresh-n-Fast, had closed. I felt o-so-vindicated. And yet, while the good place closes, ShackShackBurgerWalMart(TM) continues its slow conquering march.
   28. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:51 AM (#4117433)
It's a "west coast" style burger, not a "pub" style burger,

Well, that's not west coast style - that thin patty griddle style was invented on the east coast.
Thus the quotation marks. I wasn't making a historical argument. I bet the thick style of burger wasn't invented in a pub, either.
   29. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:52 AM (#4117435)
Interesting 'Zop. I haven't had a SS burger since around 2006 or so in the original Madison Square Park location, and it certainly had an awesome crust. That was the best part. Has this changed? Too many locations often dilutes quality...
   30. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:52 AM (#4117436)
but it seems like Primates - a savvy, well educated group of folks - do too. I don't get it.


Just because somebody's high brow, doesn't mean they automatically pretend to be 'above' any forms of fast food. Moderation my friend.

Shake Shack is a poor man's version of Kopp's.
   31. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:53 AM (#4117438)
OK, so this thread is heading inevitably to a discussion of best burgers. Who is in the Boston area? I have a list!
   32. Famous Original Joe C Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:54 AM (#4117441)
Including me. Tacos are ####### awesome.

Yeah, tacos are my favorite casual food, period. frannyzoo, tacos don't have to be crunchy, either - flour tortillas, corn tortillas, endless possibilities.
That said, I wouldn't touch Taco Bell - except maybe a bean burrito if I was driving, there was no other food for miles and miles except McDonalds/Burger King, and I was STARVING.

I also think there's fast food, and then there's fast food. Shake Shack or Five Guys is one thing - McDonalds, Burger King, etc are another. I think there's a place for the first group - delicious food is delicious - but I don't touch the stuff in the second group.
   33. zack Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:55 AM (#4117442)
The greeks only called it ambrosia because they didn't know the word "tacos".
   34. Liver of blaspheming 'zop Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:56 AM (#4117444)
Interesting 'Zop. I haven't had a SS burger since around 2006 or so in the original Madison Square Park location, and it certainly had an awesome crust. That was the best part. Has this changed? Too many locations often dilutes quality...


The last 3 times I went, I sent my burger back. Most recently, Monday of this week. I've officially given up.

Thus the quotation marks. I wasn't making a historical argument. I bet the thick style of burger wasn't invented in a pub, either.


Well, but it's just not right in this case. Shake shack is making homage to NY-area shack burgers, see, e.g., Red Rooster or All-American Burger out in the burbs.
   35. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:56 AM (#4117445)
but I don't touch the stuff in the second group..

I'll eat Wendy's on a road trip. I like the spicy chicken sandwich.
   36. Liver of blaspheming 'zop Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:58 AM (#4117446)
Who is in the Boston area? I have a list!


I'd trade a night of sex for a burger at Neptune with the fried oysters on top.

I also had a damn good one at brunch at Hammersleys (sp?).

   37. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 27, 2012 at 09:58 AM (#4117447)
I never found a burger in Boston that I loved. Well, once Tim's closed in 2005 or so, due to massive health code violations, I never found one that I loved.

Flat Patties was pretty good for the griddled style. U Burger was ok. Coda made a good burger when they didn't overcook it. Various pubs like Pour House and Druid and Audobon Circle did a fine job. RF O'Sullivan's was a crime against meat. Were there special burgers I could have been eating somewhere?

EDIT: ooh, Neptune. I miss Neptune, never had their burger.
   38. PreservedFish Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:03 AM (#4117452)
To Andy, the Shake Shack burger basically comes out medium. It's a "west coast" style burger, not a "pub" style burger, so the patty isn't think enough to both get a good hard sear and have that medium-rare, warm and red center. The sear is done very well, it's seasoned well, and the meat is high-quality. Good burger, especially if you don't have to wait a half hour to get it.


I'm glad somebody understands this.

The sear is just as important as the doneness. Fast food burgers don't get either of those things right. Shake Shack, and similar places, get the sear right, but they sacrifice the ability to cook a nice rare burger by making their patties so thin. This means it takes 2-3 minutes to cook the burger instead of 8-10.

Well done red meat can taste like dog food, but it can also taste great. A thick lean burger that's overcooked tastes like dog food. The more fat you put in there, and the better the salty crust on the outside, the better it tastes, even overcooked. Well done ground beef does not taste like dog food when it's in a taco, or lasagna, or sloppy joes, or larb, or adana kebabs, or a million other applications.

edit > oh, coke to zop.
   39. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:04 AM (#4117453)
but I don't touch the stuff in the second group..

I'll eat Wendy's on a road trip. I like the spicy chicken sandwich.
Same here.

I had to commute between Boston and NY this semester - taught once a week in Boston - and so I took the Lucky Star bus twice a week. They stop at Arby's. I planned my meals around the bus ride, but the couple times I had to rush and then was starving on the road, man, that is some bad, bad food. The beef there is approximately the most foul thing in the universe. It squeaks. The chicken sandwich is barely high school cafeteria quality. After two tries, I just decided to be more vigilant about getting a meal before, and to go hungry and eat a late dinner if I failed.
   40. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:04 AM (#4117454)
My favorite unheralded burger was the one available at Abe and Louie's brunch, with their sweet potato fries. Other than that, you seem to have been underwhelmed by some of my favorites...and I agree with you that O'Sullivan's is totally meh. Bartley's can be good but it always a madhouse and inconsistent.

But the Craigie burger at Craigie on Maine is worth the hype. Seek it out, ye burger pilgrims!
   41. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:04 AM (#4117455)
Also, curse for a blackguard any fool who puts a burger on brioche!
   42. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:06 AM (#4117457)

I had to commute between Boston and NY this semester - taught once a week in Boston - and so I took the Lucky Star bus twice a week. They stop at Arby's. I planned my meals around the bus ride, but the couple times I had to rush and then was starving on the road, man, that is some bad, bad food. The beef there is approximately the most foul thing in the universe. It squeaks. The chicken sandwich is barely high school cafeteria quality. After two tries, I just decided to be more vigilant about getting a meal before, and to go hungry and eat a late dinner if I failed.


Try the Fung Wah. They stop at Roy Rogers. It hasn't been updated since 1989 and it's like stepping into a time warp. Try to avoid eating anything, though.

(But it's been a couple years...perhaps the Roys has closed and been replaced by Arby's?)

   43. Liver of blaspheming 'zop Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:07 AM (#4117458)
Ok, if anyone is ever near northern berkshire co., you HAVE to try the burgers here:

http://www.jackshotdogstand.com/

They are sliders, not full burgers. The place hasn't changed in 80 years, and its Albany influenced, so they steam the buns, make sliders and slightly-bigger sliders only, charge ~$1 for each slider and use this ridiculous cast-iron contraption to make the "patties".

But, when it's on, it's the perfect burger. The buns come out pillowy soft and warm from the steamer, and the patties, griddled on an 80-year-old griddled that's been seasoned by the fat of a million lunches, are crispy and beefy. They make the patties in front of you - all fresh and such. It is simple, and perfect - a crispy patty on a soft bun. You can get basic toppings, if you want, but that misses the point.

The hot dogs are supposedly fine - standard greek mini Albany style, but, not my thing. But the burgers. O, the burgers.
   44. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:09 AM (#4117459)
Oh, and for more detail on the Craigie burger, they add pure suet and bone marrow to the burger mix (which is local new england grass fed, hence a bit lean for starters) and stir in some Miso paste for umami flavor. It's then steamed, then griddled at 900 degrees for a beautiful fast sear that preserves MR temperature.

hiyo!
   45. PreservedFish Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:09 AM (#4117461)
Also, I'm amused by the two references in here to tacos being crispy. Have you guys ever had an authentic taco? They look like this. They have soft tortillas and they don't usually have cheese on them. A totally different experience than the gooey-crunchy Americanized version.
   46. Liver of blaspheming 'zop Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:10 AM (#4117462)
But the Craigie burger at Craigie on Maine is worth the hype. Seek it out, ye burger pilgrims!

God, Cragie sucks, and so does their burger. A+ for PR savvy, B- for food.
   47. Liver of blaspheming 'zop Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:10 AM (#4117463)
Oh, and for more detail on the Craigie burger, they add pure suet and bone marrow to the burger mix (which is local new england grass fed, hence a bit lean for starters) and stir in some Miso paste for umami flavor. It's then steamed, then griddled at 900 degrees for a beautiful fast sear that preserves MR temperature.

Cold activated, so you can taste the rocky mountain refreshment.
   48. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4117466)
Other than that, you seem to have been underwhelmed by some of my favorites...
Yeah, I guess so. Sorry to be that guy.

To be an even worse version of that guy, I've just found that there are a bunch of burgers in New York better than the best in Boston. (Though clearly I missed a number of good Boston burgers.) Black Iron cooks a perfect burger every time, and Korzo Haus is my new favorite in the entire world - the bun is a deep fried Hungarian bread, the guy cooks the burger to just under on the griddle, wraps it in a thin layer of dough, and flash fries it. You get the texture of a crisp outside, soft inside with both the bun and the burger.
   49. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:12 AM (#4117467)
Hmm. Disagree.
   50. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:13 AM (#4117469)
PreservedFish:

I thought it was obvious that we were talking about American housewife/high school cafeteria style tacos, not authentic tacos. We're not rubes, here!
   51. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:14 AM (#4117470)
MCA: you're right, Boston is not competitive with New York right now...they have come a long way on pizza and burgers, though. One day there will be a good bagel place in Boston, though maybe not, as there are hardly any left in Manhattan either.
   52. Liver of blaspheming 'zop Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:15 AM (#4117471)
they have come a long way on pizza

Keep telling yourself that.
   53. PreservedFish Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:17 AM (#4117473)
We're not rubes, here!


My apologies, good sir.
   54. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:17 AM (#4117475)
Keep telling yourself that.

When I first moved to Boston, it was either Regina's or greek style. It's definitely better now. Posto in Davis Square compares favorably with Una Pizza Neapolitana.

edit: And I should add, I am a New Jersey native who spent his first two years in Boston being "that guy" who ####### about how all the pizza in Boston sucks. I wish I could go back in time and punch myself.
   55. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:19 AM (#4117476)
I will never understand the Shake Shack fascination. It is 10:20 am and I am looking out my office window to Madison Square Park and there is already a line forming.
   56. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:20 AM (#4117477)
It is mostly just unfair to compare a city 1/5 the size of New York to New York. I was thinking that there should be burger parity, but that's underselling how difficult it is to turn out consistently great food in a restaurant setting.

I thought Picco and Regina made pizza that stands up to just about any pizza anywhere, though. Pho at Xinh Xinh. Craigie. Drink. No 9 Park. Clam shacks up the north shore beat anything in New York.
   57. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4117481)
I haven't been to Drink yet but Eastern Standard TAUGHT me about drinking properly. Love the cocktail scene in Boston. I went to Death and Company in NYC and didn't like the bartending quite as much as ESK. It was more on par with Deep Ellum (still great).

If you're ever in New Brunswick NJ for whatever reason (near Rutgers) the bartender at Catherine Lombardi downtown is Christopher Stanley, a true genius who would tend anyone currently at Death and Co. under the table.
   58. tshipman Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:31 AM (#4117489)
According to a guy I know who claims to have surveyed more than 100 different locations of fast food/chain restaurants, the best burgers can be found at Red Robin.

I have enjoyed the one or two times I've had a burger there, so there you go. A fried egg is the king of the burger fixings.
   59. Liver of blaspheming 'zop Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:32 AM (#4117490)
Posto in Davis Square compares favorably with Una Pizza Neapolitana.

Which was never very good, fancy oven and bohemian artist-chef aside. And now its closed.

I thought Picco and Regina made pizza that stands up to just about any pizza anywhere, though.

I actually like the ice cream at Picco more than the pizza, which i think is middling. Regina is fine, too. The problem with Boston isn't the pizza at the one or two destination, whole-pie-only joints, its that there's no good street pizza.

Craigie.

God, I hate Craigie. It's a testiment to self-promotion and mediocrity. They serve soggy fried food to slobbering hoards of people who are so brainwashed by the press that they literally would love anything that's put on the plate. I bet you Boston Beer Works would beat Craigie in a blind tasting, and I'm only half-kidding. (Note: I understand from Those Who Know that this was not true at Craigie's original location, and that the food fell off the precipice when they moved to the new spot and tripled in size.)

Drink. No 9 Park.

I actually had a slightly disappointing meal at Menton the other week. Sportello is terrific. I have an utterly amazing Barbara Lynch story - she's incredible.

Clam shacks up the north shore beat anything in New York.

All boston seafood is 10000 times better than its NYC equivlaent. Island Creek better than any NY oyster bar. Neptune better than any seafood place (what would be the NY equivalent? John Dory?)
   60. Famous Original Joe C Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4117494)
WJ, I live in Boston - I'm interested in your list.

The folks behind Ten Tables just opened a place called Grass Fed Burger Bar right down the street in JP. Had an excellent burger there on Monday - well cooked, plenty of fat, and a nice griddled bun.

the bun is a deep fried Hungarian bread

!!!

   61. Famous Original Joe C Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:38 AM (#4117499)
The problem with Boston isn't the pizza at the one or two destination, whole-pie-only joints, its that there's no good street pizza.

Yep, you nailed it.

   62. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:40 AM (#4117500)
I haven't been to Drink yet but Eastern Standard TAUGHT me about drinking properly. Love the cocktail scene in Boston. I went to Death and Company in NYC and didn't like the bartending quite as much as ESK. It was more on par with Deep Ellum (still great).
I think a lot of NYC cocktail bars are cutting corners now to turn over more orders. I went to PDT six months ago and the bartender was speeding through mixing without measuring precisely or shaking sufficiently. The drinks were still good, but I could see the decline.

Love Eastern Standard so much. I had a similar, "learning to drink" experience at Drink. You should go. Try to get Josie as your bartender.

'zop, yeah, you're right about fine dining seafood options. At the very top end NYC has great options (so I hear, at least), but at the Neptune price point there isn't an equivalent. Mermaid Inn is pretty good, I thought, but not at the level of Boston's better places.

And I believe we have agreed to disagree about the Craigie.
   63. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4117503)
the bun is a deep fried Hungarian bread

!!!
Seriously, right?
   64. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:46 AM (#4117506)
According to a guy I know who claims to have surveyed more than 100 different locations of fast food/chain restaurants, the best burgers can be found at Red Robin.


Red Robin was the first restaurant 'brand' that my oldest daughter (now 3-ish) could recognize, though she crushes their chicken tenders, steak fries and mandarin oranges, not the burgers. Burgers aren't bad there, admit I'm not a french fry person, but I really don't care for steak fries.
   65. Liver of blaspheming 'zop Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM (#4117512)
'zop, yeah, you're right about fine dining seafood options. At the very top end NYC has great options (so I hear, at least), but at the Neptune price point there isn't an equivalent. Mermaid Inn is pretty good, I thought, but not at the level of Boston's better places.

I'd take a meal at one of the better branches of Legal over Mermaid Inn. There is precious little good seafood in NY. Christ, I've had nothing but middling meals at Le Bernadin, dating back to when Eric Ripert was but a glint in the Food Network's eye.

And once you get out of Boston proper, the seafood options only get better. Fried clams and steamers, everywhere. ####, the first real good lobster pound is only ~1hr north: Bob Lobster, in Newburyport. Man, I'm hungry. Is it July yet so I can go to Maine and eat $3/lb "Rock" Crab for a week?
   66. YR Misses Reggie Bars Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:53 AM (#4117517)
A fried egg is the king of the burger fixings.


I'd never heard of such a thing until Homer Simpson drooled over one. Did they exist previously or was life imitating art?
   67. Karl from NY Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:55 AM (#4117519)
According to a guy I know who claims to have surveyed more than 100 different locations of fast food/chain restaurants, the best burgers can be found at Red Robin.

Red Robin varies wildly in my experience. I've had great burgers there, but also a dry cardboard patty. That last was at the location on Route 3 in Clifton NJ so maybe it was just them.

Five Guys fries are great in small quantities, especially the cajun. A small order should split between 3 or 4 people and you've got about the right amount. Any more per person (god forbid a whole order) and you can feel your heart arteries thickening.

Agreed on not getting the Shake Shack hype. I suppose it's good (never had it), but I don't think there's really anything a burger can do to be measurably better than the "Hall of Very Good" options like Five Guys or Cheeburger or Smashburger or a decent pub.
   68. Chicago Joe Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:56 AM (#4117520)
but I really don't care for steak fries.

Steak fries are atrocious.
   69. Flynn Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:56 AM (#4117521)
You don't need to shake that much, really, to make a good cocktail. Really once condensation hits the outside of the shake you've done enough. Otherwise it gets too foamy on top.

   70. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:57 AM (#4117524)
You don't need to shake that much, really, to make a good cocktail.
You need to shake it hard. These were lazy, I have a lot of drinks to get through tonight, shakes. That's what I meant by "sufficient".
   71. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 27, 2012 at 10:58 AM (#4117525)
As for Jolly Old St. Neck Wound: I feel your pain for the most part. I once got in a fight with the manager at UBurger because they have a big "We Cook To Order" sign above the counter but wouldn't make my burger medium rare. However, when you are talking a thin, fast food style patty, it is really difficult to hit that mark, one, and not really necessary, provided the burger has plenty of fat content and is griddled reasonbly fresh (no grills, please!). SS burgers are juicy and delicious despite being cooked through. Also, "oozing blood"? There is no "blood" in a rare steak. Blood doesn't vanish when you cook it.

No, but if you cook it too long without searing it (which I don't always do, out of stupidity), then the blood spills into the pan and gets burned. When I'm in stroke, I can stick a toothpick into my just-out-of-the-pan burger and the blood (or the juice, if that's what you want to call it) will shoot up like it's a Yellowstone geyser. To me that's the surest sign of a perfectly done burger, but even in the best restaurants they have a tough time doing it consistently.
   72. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:02 AM (#4117529)
Unti lICOB opened, I was never impressed by Seafood in Boston. The best seafood restaurant in New England is Street and Co. in Portland, ME. What a ####### restaurant, and a bargain compared to Boston.
   73. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:02 AM (#4117530)
I'd guess that most DC people have tried Pete's New Haven pizza, but for those who haven't, their margherita pizza is just about the best pizza I've had in years. Expensive, but they've been giving out with the Groupon coupons enough to keep us coming back.
   74. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:03 AM (#4117531)
That's my point, it's not blood! But I get what you're saying.
   75. Tuque Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:05 AM (#4117534)
Korzo Haus

Oh #### man. I used to live like five blocks from there. That was one of my favorite hang-out spots. Surprisingly, it was never as busy as you would expect, either, considering how small and how good the place was, though I'm assuming that's been changing since I left.
   76. boteman Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:07 AM (#4117536)
Shake Shack! Sh-Sh-Shake Shack!

Folks linin' up outside
just to get dowwwwwwwwwwwwn!
   77. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:07 AM (#4117537)
Seriously, eating run-of-the-mill American ground beef is a risky enough proposition when its cooked to a dry shoe leather state, but eating it rare? Fine if you know where the beef is coming from, but if you don't, its foolish.
   78. tshipman Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:10 AM (#4117540)
I'd never heard of such a thing until Homer Simpson drooled over one. Did they exist previously or was life imitating art?


It's been around for some time. Can't quickly find a cite on date. Before 1969, as Red Robin opened then.

Annoyingly rare in large sections of the country. I have no idea why it isn't more popular. I guess because it's messy? You can't beat it, though.
   79. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:16 AM (#4117545)

Seriously, eating run-of-the-mill American ground beef is a risky enough proposition when its cooked to a dry shoe leather state, but eating it rare? Fine if you know where the beef is coming from, but if you don't, its foolish.


What a retarded sentiment. Eating ground beef cooked to any temperature is as safe as anything else is likely to be. Spinach has sickened more people than beef in this country.
   80. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4117547)
What a retarded sentiment. Eating ground beef cooked to any temperature is as safe as anything else is likely to be. Spinach has sickened more people than beef in this country.
Trust me, you're only scratching the surface of crazy things RM believes about health and diet. Walk away. Don't bring up "toxins".
   81. Liver of blaspheming 'zop Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4117552)
Unti lICOB opened, I was never impressed by Seafood in Boston. The best seafood restaurant in New England is Street and Co. in Portland, ME. What a ####### restaurant, and a bargain compared to Boston.


Well, ####, if Portland and Maine in general is your baseline, the Boston seafood does suck.

   82. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4117553)
In most countries that would be true, but in the US it is perfectly legal (and very common) to feed beef cattle chicken sh*t, feathers, rendered beef fat, dried beef blood, and various other things that a cow would never eat knowingly or willingly. If you want to eat that, cooked through or rare, knock yourself out. A case of mad cow disease was just confirmed in California - gee, I wonder how that got by your crack team of regulators? Prions are not destroyed by cooking temperatures.

A microwaved #### sandwich would technically be safe to eat too, that doesn't mean people should be eating it.
   83. Famous Original Joe C Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:26 AM (#4117557)
A microwaved #### sandwich would technically be safe to eat too, that doesn't mean people should be eating it.

Lots of people eat at Subway, and most of them don't even get sick from it.
   84. Der_K Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4117558)
5 Guys fries: As others said, you need to go cajun. And split with several friends.
Red Robin: Aggressively mediocre.
Rovell - my only "hate follow" on twitter.
   85. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:33 AM (#4117562)
Sort of on topic, but how do you guys make good burgers at home? I have a family request to cook on the grill this weekend for a party, so no pan for me. Also, I can't really spend money on butcher shop meat, so it's Costco for me. Am I to understand that I should NOT get the 90% lean meat? I know they have 80% but should I try to find something less than 80%?

And secondly, do you just slap the meat into a patty and cook it, or should I be adding something? My mother always used to put in stuff like bread crumbs and mayonnaise (or something). She said that it helped the meat to "bind" together and stay in the right shape. Or something like that, I guess I never really paid attention.
   86. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:34 AM (#4117564)
I have no problem with ground beef, as long as it doesn't come from a cow forced into cannibalism and slaughtered in a plant along with a couple of thousand other animals every day.
   87. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:35 AM (#4117567)
Greg: I actually struggle making good burgers at home, and I don't know why. I am a fairly good cook, but when I grill at home I'd rather make dogs or brats because my burgers are underwhelming. I've tried a lot of things, too. Certainly, go for the highest fat content possible for starters.
   88. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:35 AM (#4117568)
Rants: you are making a very strong moral argument about factory farmed ground beef, and I hear that. But there really is a tiny to nonexistent safety issue.
   89. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4117570)
Oh, and NO BREAD CRUMBS. That's a meatloaf sandwich, not a burger....
   90. Liver of blaspheming 'zop Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4117571)
Wait, guys, there's a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance I might get mad cow! Oh noes! No more delicious rare beef for me!
   91. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4117572)
#85

Medium is your best bet, even "lean" is a bit dry for a good burger. If you do get lean, it helps to dice some raw bacon and mix it in. I usually add my own steak spice (similar to Montreal steak spice) and some Worchectershire sauce. Several folsk on here swear by pan/griddle frying, but I've always preferred a nice thick burger cooked over an open flame orr better yet, charcoal. High heat and quick cooking is a must.
   92. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:38 AM (#4117573)
Seriously, eating run-of-the-mill American ground beef is a risky enough proposition when its cooked to a dry shoe leather state, but eating it rare? Fine if you know where the beef is coming from, but if you don't, its foolish.

I usually get Coleman's ground beef or some similar brand, but I remember one classmate I had in 7th grade who ate raw hamburger sandwiches for lunch that had been sitting in his school locker all morning. His mom may have gotten the beef from a local kosher butcher, but he never mentioned it if she did.

He went on to become a valedictorian at MIT and a math prof at Carolina, but that bad meat finally did him in 50 years later.

And then there's Bob "The Geek" St. Clair, a great 49ers lineman in the 50's who was equally famous for his diet that consisted mostly of raw steaks. He's still alive at 82.

Obviously anecdotes like these don't prove anything, but neither do occasional outbreaks of bad meat poisoning at a Jack in the Box. I'm all for increasing the inspection budget of the FDA boys, but in the meantime I'm not going to worry about eating hamburgers.
   93. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4117578)
Also, I can't really spend money on butcher shop meat, so it's Costco for me. Am I to understand that I should NOT get the 90% lean meat? I know they have 80% but should I try to find something less than 80%?
80% is fine, I like brisket which usually comes in around 70%, I think.

The keys with burgers are (1) high fat content, (2) seasoning, and (3) griddle, not grill. Ground red meat needs a lot of salt, and a good deal of pepper. Cooking on a griddle (good pan over high heat on the stove works fine) allows the patty to cook in its own juices, and to sear fully. The caramelization of the meat from the sear is a big part of where burger flavor comes from.
   94. PreservedFish Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:43 AM (#4117580)
A case of mad cow disease was just confirmed in California - gee, I wonder how that got by your crack team of regulators?


Wait, doesn't this mean that the regulators found it?
   95. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:46 AM (#4117582)
I apologize 'zop, I forget that you live in the best country in the universe where the government has never let anything bad happen to anyone ever.

I don't understand why people wouldn't want an alternative to factory processed crap, when its readily available if you simply give a ####. The only reason most people eat it is because they don't know, so if I can give pause to a few people and sway them to make an informed choice that can only benefit their health, their local economy and animal welfare in general, I'll put up with the ridicule from establishment lackeys like 'zop. I can buy grass-fed, locally raised and slaughtered beef at my local market cheaper than what I'd have to pay at the supermarket, its not like I'm paying $5/lb for my ground beef.
   96. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:46 AM (#4117583)
Why do people eat this ####? Everything in your life will be better - your health, your energy level, your look, your physical abilities - if you just cut out fast food.

I don't eat fast food either, unless it's at a highway rest stop. Shake Shack isn't fast food though.

OK, so this thread is heading inevitably to a discussion of best burgers. Who is in the Boston area? I have a list!

If you're in Boston, go to Pinocchio's in Cambridge and get the cheeseburger sub. With hot peppers. Get a slice of pizza while you're at it. Oh man, my mouth is watering...

I went to Citi for the first time last week, and there's a Blue Ribbon counter right next to the Shake Shack counter. I got a pulled pork sandwich (darn good and just $8) after waiting for about a minute. The Shake Shack line was at least 30 minutes long. Shake Shack is good, but it's not that good.

It's Blue Smoke, not Blue Ribbon, but yeah their pulled pork sandwich is excellent, at least to this city slicker. There's absolutely no reason to wait in the Shake Shack line at Citifield.

Frankly, it still amazes me that they haven't figured out how to move that line faster, either at the original Shake Shack or at Citifield. I walk by the original nearly every day, and would probably eat there once or twice a week if the line wasn't so damned long. And I'm definitely not the only one. They are leaving a lot of money on the table.
   97. PreservedFish Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4117585)
You don't actually want the burger to bind - it gets a gummy sausage-like texture that is inappropriate.
   98. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4117588)
Rants, I agree with you on the whole about the moral imperative to eat better meat. But, really, that's what it is, not a food safety imperative as you claimed originally. THere is zero evidence to support that claim.
   99. PreservedFish Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:51 AM (#4117589)
I can buy grass-fed, locally raised and slaughtered beef at my local market cheaper than what I'd have to pay at the supermarket...


You can? That sounds unpossible.
   100. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 27, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4117596)
A case of mad cow disease was just confirmed in California - gee, I wonder how that got by your crack team of regulators?

Wait, doesn't this mean that the regulators found it?


Yep, they found that one.

CNN - California Mad Cow

Luckey would not divulge on which farm the animal was found. He said his company tests 1,000 to 2,000 animals a year, which he described as "a small percentage" of the overall number of animals it renders.


If you guys want to play those odds, go ahead. It has been proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that ruminants get prion diseases like Mad Cow by eating their own remains, yet the US still allows corporate beef processors to feed them those remains. If there was no other source of beef available to me, or if its cost was extremely prohibitive, I would probably say #### it and roll the dice, but since I have other readily available alternative sources at reasonable prices, I choose not to. How any adult intelligent enough to create an account on this website and construct a intelligible sentence could find that position unreasonable, I can't tell you.

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