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Tuesday, March 05, 2013

Rumor: Cano, A-Rod, Braun To Be Suspended for Failed PED Test

  Anonymous Source: Cano, Granderson, A-Rod and Braun will all be suspended for failing PED test this season.

  — Joe Bisceglie (@joebisceglie) March 4, 2013

You’d be inclined to be skeptical, and for fair reason — Bisceglie doesn’t name his source. This kind of story is explosive, and deserves tender care before people start going on witch hunts and throwing names out there with no rationale. But consider this: Bisceglie correctly prognosticated that Melky Cabrera would be suspended last season for a failed PED test almost a month before his suspension came.

  My sources tell me that Melky Cabrera will be suspended soon for violation of MLB’s PED policy

  — Joe Bisceglie (@joebisceglie) July 18, 2012

madvillain Posted: March 05, 2013 at 12:31 AM | 414 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: steroids

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   301. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 07, 2013 at 02:32 PM (#4382959)
I guess what I'm saying is that I'm dead inside?


Possibly obligatory.
   302. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 07, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4382960)
Right, Dylan skipped Ed Sullivan-- his refusal to obediently comply got him more mainstream publicity and "cool cred" than a performance would have. The point is that he was already on enough of a career trajectory to get Ed Sullivan’s invite. Sullivan had a knack for anointing acts who were still cresting, most obviously Elvis and the Beatles. For many people, their first exposure to Dylan was at the March. It doesn’t mean that Dylan was unheard outside of the Cafe Wha?

Point taken, and well taken. Dylan's early years were formed by not just the civil rights movement, but by Woody Guthrie and earlier folk artists of an activist bent. His musical response to that was what got him invited onto Sullivan, but you can't argue with chronology, and though I hadn't previously known it, the Sullivan appearance preceded the MOW.

(And for that matter, for all I know it was the Sullivan appearance that got him invited to the March. Prior to that march, Dylan wasn't exactly a well-known quantity within the civil rights movement, but given his then-current repertory and his Sullivan exposure, it made perfect sense to have him be one of the warmup acts for the main speakers on the Mall.)
   303. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 07, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4382961)
That said, if you weren't "there", you can at least get a partial understanding by hunting down video footage of actual mass meetings. Not clips of Bob Dylan or Joan Baez singing at Carnegie Hall, but documentary footage that's in first rate compilations such as the DVD release of King: From Montgomery to Memphis.

Or you can just youtube "March on Washington" and see most of it as the TV cameras showed it BITD.

In fact, I just listened to Joan Baez croon "We Shall Overcome." I've heard better.

I'm afraid you did "have to be there" to truly understand the impact not only of We Shall Overcome, but of the entire role of music in keeping hope alive in days when white supremacy was as embedded in the DNA of this country as salt is in Doritos.


If there are any universal truths out there, one of them is that this is the kind of thing people say when describing the music and events of the time they were young. The arguably closer connection between a small niche of popular music and political action during the Civil Rights Era doesn't change this timeless truth an iota.
   304. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 07, 2013 at 02:35 PM (#4382964)
If we’re talking about the confluence of the early 1960s, breakthrough musical performances, and live television news coverage, nobody tops this guy.
   305. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 07, 2013 at 02:36 PM (#4382967)
(Janelle Monae's The Archandroid) On my to get list, but somehow I never do.

Half of it is utterly brilliant (the other half are genre exercises that didn't really work for me).
   306. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 07, 2013 at 02:36 PM (#4382968)
Details are sketchy, but Elvis Costello stopped in the middle of a song on SNL in 1977-78 as some form of protest against censorship. Of course, it might have helped if the producers had run subtitles.
   307. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 07, 2013 at 02:38 PM (#4382970)
How many people do you think watched the speech live on TV?

With every network running it live, and with the late afternoon timing, I'd imagine it would have been quite a lot.

For me the irony is that although I'd been at the March beginning around 7:00 in the morning, by the time King got up to the podium I'd gotten on the bus and gone up to visit my parents. For many of the SNCC marchers the highlight of the day was to be John Lewis's highly edited speech, and when that was over, the fatigue started to set in. It wasn't one of my brighter decisions.
   308. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 07, 2013 at 02:41 PM (#4382972)
Costello started playing "Less Than Zero," cut the song off, and then launched into "Radio Radio" instead. NBC censors hadn't vetted the song, and Costello was banned from SNL for more than ten years as a result. Costello said he got the idea from Jimi Hendrix, who'd pulled a similar stunt on BBC Television in the late 1960s.
   309. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 07, 2013 at 02:42 PM (#4382973)
Details are sketchy, but Elvis Costello stopped in the middle of a song on SNL in 1977-78 as some form of protest against censorship. Of course, it might have helped if the producers had run subtitles.


Supposedly, NBC didn't want him to play "Radio Radio," so he stopped the band a few moments into "Less Than Zero" (which had no meaning for American audiences anyway, since it concerned the old British fascist leader Oswald Moseley) & played the former instead.

Edit: Beverage of Gonfalon's choice.
   310. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 07, 2013 at 02:46 PM (#4382976)
Well, you see, NBC didn't want EC to play "Radio Radio" so...
[Costello's peak is, for my preferences, the highest of any solo artist. Adore him.]
   311. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 07, 2013 at 02:47 PM (#4382977)
I'm afraid you did "have to be there" to truly understand the impact not only of We Shall Overcome, but of the entire role of music in keeping hope alive in days when white supremacy was as embedded in the DNA of this country as salt is in Doritos.

If there are any universal truths out there, one of them is that this is the kind of thing people say when describing the music and events of the time they were young. The arguably closer connection between a small niche of popular music and political action during the Civil Rights Era doesn't change this timeless truth an iota.


That kind of begs the question of the relative influence of various genres of music once you step outside of the realm of music. I doubt if many history mavens with encyclopedic knowledge of the role of We Shall Overcome, I Want to Hold Your Hand, Like A Rolling Stone, and the greatest hit of The Who in shaping the world as we know it today, would ever have any trouble stating that the first of those songs was far more "influential" than the other three.
   312. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 07, 2013 at 02:57 PM (#4382988)
stating that the first of those songs was far more "influential" than the other three.


Not snark, but how would one ever measure how influential a song was (assuming popularity did not figure into it too heavily)?

I have no idea how that could be argued one way or another. Unless we are talking musically influenctial, which I guess could be determined, but I am pretty sure that is not the influence we are talking.
   313. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 07, 2013 at 03:00 PM (#4382993)
Shhh, they're on a roll
(More seriously, I don't know either.)
   314. tfbg9 Posted: March 07, 2013 at 03:05 PM (#4382999)
C'mon, Andy was "there" at least at a 66% reason-rate simply to meet the loose, leftist chicks of the era. I refuse to be convinced otherwise. I'd have done the
same thing, back when I was 20 or whatever.

You guys are arguing impressions. One can't argue impressions. Andy's is that WSO was "influential." YMMV, its the nature of this kind of thing. It was a powerful
song I suppose.

Jim Crow was goin' down either way.
   315. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 07, 2013 at 03:52 PM (#4383036)
Not snark, but how would one ever measure how influential a song was (assuming popularity did not figure into it too heavily)?

Obviously it's not anything that can be measured quantitatively, but....

If you want to determine the most influential song (or singers) within the realm of music, you might ask as many musicians as you can who their major musical influences were, and then augment that by seeing if you can discover what past generations of musicians said. You may or may not get a final answer, and you'd have to take it by genre (Bach probably didn't have much direct influence on The Who), but at least that'd be one way of beginning.

And if you want to try to determine which song had the greatest influence on history beyond the realm of music, you might want to ask as many political historians as you could find who were acquainted with a broad range of music. One such historian who's very well versed in both social/political history and the history of 60's pop music would be Douglas Brinkley of Rice, who's written and talked extensively on both subjects for the last 25 years.

Beyond that, you'd want to talk to a broad cross section of people who participated in history changing movements and ask them. It'd require a lot of work, but it'd give you a much more coherent answer than just googling Billboard charts or Nielson ratings.
   316. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 07, 2013 at 03:58 PM (#4383046)
One such historian who's very well versed in both social/political history and the history of 60's pop music would be Douglas Brinkley of Rice, who's written and talked extensively on both subjects for the last 25 years.


Which reminds me of a different historian named Brinkley (David's son, in fact), Alan, & that I need to unearth my copy of his Voices of Protest. I don't believe I've read anything of Douglas'.
   317. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 07, 2013 at 03:59 PM (#4383047)
Still tricky, though.

For instance, the Velvet Underground's influence was far greater than their sales suggests - sure - but just becasue the people that bought their albums started bands doesn't mean that those same people weren't also influenced by, I dunno, bubblegum pop, in ways they didn't want to admit to (or were conscious of). A thing observed or asked of is a thing changed.

I don't mean to suggest that just because we're all black boxes means that analysis is impossible but I'm less confident in man's ability to suss these things out than I once was.
   318. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 07, 2013 at 04:10 PM (#4383057)
And if you want to try to determine which song had the greatest influence on history beyond the realm of music, you might want to ask as many political historians as you could find who were acquainted with a broad range of music. One such historian who's very well versed in both social/political history and the history of 60's pop music would be Douglas Brinkley of Rice, who's written and talked extensively on both subjects for the last 25 years.

Just to keep our eye on the ball, though, the claim that got me involved was that WSO was more influential on a "generation" than any work of the Beatles or the Who -- and, really, by implication anyone else. I would intrepret that to mean far more than merely politics, instead something like "the aesthetics, tastes, and souls."

   319. tfbg9 Posted: March 07, 2013 at 04:21 PM (#4383079)
WSO is just the same verse over and over again, there's no chorus. Kinda like Promised Land by Chuck Berry in that regard. AmIrite?
   320. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 07, 2013 at 04:24 PM (#4383083)
This seems like semantical shadow boxing. "We Shall Overcome" was influential mostly in that it influenced people to sing "We Shall Overcome." While it is now an undeniable aural shorthand for the civil rights movement as a whole, that movement wouldn't have missed a step had the song never existed. Whereas we can think of many songs, albums or artists whose absence would have delayed, diverted or derailed subsequent musical developments. Does that mean that Ramones-influenced songs are more important to America than our greater freedoms? Historically, does the mighty influence of "We Shall Overcome" pale in comparison to the even mightier influence of that musical masterpiece "Over There"? If Bob Dylan hadn't walked out on CBS, would it have inspired Ed Sullivan to go electric? Could Bull Connor do the Monkey? So many important questions.
   321. Morty Causa Posted: March 07, 2013 at 04:37 PM (#4383096)
It was an outcome, an expression, of the movement. It had a signifying usage. It helps make you feel and think the universe is kin and you have place in it. Yes, if it hadn't existed, something would have been found or created. Everyone has a song. The Salvation Army has a song. Both the Union and the Confederacy had songs. Harvard has a song. So do the Campfire Girls. The song We Shall Overcome created nothing except a good feeling of comradeship. This is a confusion of cause and effect. We Shall Overcome caused nothing.

Everyone has a song--even Monty Burns

   322. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 07, 2013 at 04:38 PM (#4383099)
Does that mean that Ramones-influenced songs are more important to America than our greater freedoms?


As in the first 4 Ramones albums? That's a no-brainer, man!
   323. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 07, 2013 at 04:57 PM (#4383119)
There is more than one Ramones song? Really?


(I kid, well a little)
   324. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: March 07, 2013 at 06:00 PM (#4383225)
Thanks for the soul suggestions, gents. I will check it out. I feel like the depth of quality soul music that came out in the 60's into the 70's gets really unappreciated sometimes.

   325. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 07, 2013 at 06:04 PM (#4383235)
There is more than one Ramones song? Really?


(I kid, well a little)


There is something -- well, a lot -- to that, but when you throw in "Bonzo Goes to Bitberg" & "You Don't Come Close" & "Questioningly," for starters ... man, those guys had some serious pop chops.
   326. tfbg9 Posted: March 07, 2013 at 06:13 PM (#4383245)
Questioningly


Ridiculously good song.

Joey Ramone used to come into Pauls's Lounge every so often in the EV when me and my friends would be watching the Knicks/Lakers or something kinda late--
because there was no cable in my building until about 1988 or so, I had to go out and drink to see games. Anyway, you had to do the too cool to drool bit,
and pretend you didn't notice a famous guy across the bar. It was required to avoid harsh mockery.
   327. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 07, 2013 at 06:19 PM (#4383249)
Just to keep our eye on the ball, though, the claim that got me involved was that WSO was more influential on a "generation" than any work of the Beatles or the Who -- and, really, by implication anyone else. I would interpret that to mean far more than merely politics, instead something like "the aesthetics, tastes, and souls."

I guess I'm not sure how a movement that managed to transform the United States from South Africa Lite to the rainbow nation we inhabit today can be pigeonholed into a category of "merely politics."

In terms of influences on "aesthetics, tastes, and souls," Whose aesthetics? Whose tastes? Whose souls? All popular music influences other popular music. Where would the Beatles have been without Chuck Berry? Where would Elvis have been without gospel music (both white and black) and R&B? If any particular Beatles song had never been written, what difference would that have really made? It's not as if they were one hit wonders, but it's also not as if they were really more influential (or was it more "famous"?) than Jesus.

OTOH while on a certain level "We Shall Overcome" was indeed "just one song among many", to those who were "there" (sorry, boys), it was far more than that. Morty's childish comparison to "campfire songs" misses the point entirely. There were countless cases of people being held without bail in hellhole jails, unspeakable conditions, who used that song as a symbol of defiance, and by singing it in the face of even more beatings they reinforced that defiance, and eventually wore down those walls. I'm terribly sorry that this can't be quantified, but it's every bit as real as the number of frat boys whose "consciousness" was transformed, or whose sense of "aesthetics" was altered, under the spell of the Sgt. Pepper album.

----------------------------------

WSO is just the same verse over and over again,

There were probably more verses sung to that song, both "official" and improvised, than any song you could ever name. One more demonstration that you have no idea what you're talking about.

----------------------------------

This seems like semantical shadow boxing. "We Shall Overcome" was influential mostly in that it influenced people to sing "We Shall Overcome."


The song We Shall Overcome created nothing except a good feeling of comradeship. This is a confusion of cause and effect. We Shall Overcome caused nothing.


I'll let the two of you mutually masturbate in your infinite knowledge of history, or at least in your indisputable knowledge of Ed Sullivan and The Simpsons. I'm only mildly surprised that you didn't summon up some mathematical formula to reinforce your cluelessness.
   328. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 07, 2013 at 06:27 PM (#4383257)
Just out of curiosity, how many songs have been the subjects of books? Completely off the top of my head, I can think of "Strange Fruit" & "Louie, Louie."
   329. tfbg9 Posted: March 07, 2013 at 06:28 PM (#4383260)
There were probably more verses sung to that song, both "official" and improvised, than any song you could ever name. One more demonstration that you have no idea what you're talking about.


I meant the melody. Not the lyrics. Time for you nap, it would seem.
   330. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 07, 2013 at 06:31 PM (#4383264)
It's definitely time for my nap, but I'm afraid my co-workers would object.
   331. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 07, 2013 at 06:33 PM (#4383266)
In terms of influences on "aesthetics, tastes, and souls," Whose aesthetics? Whose tastes? Whose souls?

The "generation" whose membership you insisted was far more influenced by WSO than the Beatles, the Who, and other musicians. Life is far more rich than mere politics (*), and politics is far more rich than protests and taking to the barricades.

(*) Though to repeat again, "political" music has been done far more skillfully and with far more sophistication than WSO. John Lennon himself composed "Give Peace a Chance," a far better song than WSO. I'm pretty sure somebody somewhere has sung it while the billy clubs were swinging.





   332. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 07, 2013 at 06:44 PM (#4383278)
I'll let the two of you mutually masturbate in your infinite knowledge of history, or at least in your indisputable knowledge of Ed Sullivan and The Simpsons. I'm only mildly surprised that you didn't summon up some mathematical formula to reinforce your cluelessness.

We shall overreact
We shall overreact
We shall overreact to-day.

Andy, in a hypothetical world with no "We Shall Overcome," you would've sung something else in solidarity and in defiance-- "We Shall Not Be Moved" or "Oh Freedom" or "George Wallace is a Scowling Doucheface"-- and that's the song that would have ended up carrying WSO's intense meaning for you and America. You're taking the song's accrued meaning, and saying it was the agent of that meaning. It's not masturbating all over your life experience to note that the song's influence and the movement's influence weren't literally synonymous. One caused the other, not vice versa, and how is that any kind of problem? "Which came first, the chicken or the parmigiana?"
   333. Greg K Posted: March 07, 2013 at 06:48 PM (#4383280)
Costello started playing "Less Than Zero," cut the song off, and then launched into "Radio Radio" instead. NBC censors hadn't vetted the song, and Costello was banned from SNL for more than ten years as a result. Costello said he got the idea from Jimi Hendrix, who'd pulled a similar stunt on BBC Television in the late 1960s.

Not to mention Nirvana playing Territorial Pissings on Jonathan Ross rather than the single they said they'd play!

What was wrong with "Radio Radio", to be honest it's really the only Costello song I know well, and I've always found it a jaunty tune to bop to.
   334. Lassus Posted: March 07, 2013 at 06:50 PM (#4383282)
There is more than one Ramones song? Really?

Don't make me come over there.
   335. Greg K Posted: March 07, 2013 at 06:56 PM (#4383289)
And if you want to try to determine which song had the greatest influence on history beyond the realm of music, you might want to ask as many political historians as you could find

Alastair Bellany argues that early 17th century libel poetry (which was a kind of genre of political satire verse, some of which were designed to be set to music), created a political culture in which the assassination of the Duke of Buckingham was both imaginable and desirable. Maybe one of those is in the running!
   336. Lassus Posted: March 07, 2013 at 07:10 PM (#4383302)
Andy, in a hypothetical world with no "We Shall Overcome," you would've sung something else in solidarity and in defiance-- "We Shall Not Be Moved" or "Oh Freedom" or "George Wallace is a Scowling Doucheface"-- and that's the song that would have ended up carrying WSO's intense meaning for you and America. You're taking the song's accrued meaning, and saying it was the agent of that meaning.

Having lived in music training and performance for decades, I don't think I can fully agree with this seemingly reasonable statement. It is a little like saying that if Beethoven had come up with a different four-note theme at the start of the 5th, it wouldn't have mattered at all, something else would have fit the bill somewhere. To be topical it's similar to saying the Johnson brothers' "Lift Ev'ry Voice" would have been replaced by something else and the effect on the community singing it would have been utterly negligible. I think it is more than a bit soulless to toss aside the tangible and even historical effect of one melody over another so cavalierly.
   337. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 07, 2013 at 07:35 PM (#4383338)
333: I've heard two reasons: 1) NBC and/or Columbia Records wanted him to play a more known hit - NBC was upset that they didn't vet RR; 2) Radio Radio is anti-corporate media.
   338. Andere Richtingen Posted: March 07, 2013 at 07:46 PM (#4383358)
Where would the Beatles have been without Chuck Berry?

Just as good. The Beatles had many, many influences, everything from Berry to Tinpan Alley to Ravi Shankar. Subtract one and you do not get a significant difference.
   339. Morty Causa Posted: March 07, 2013 at 08:15 PM (#4383398)
Not to mention rockabilly. Bill Haley and Buddy Holly were also influences. Not to mention Elvis, who the Blacks thought sang Cracker music and the Crackers thought sang Black music (see Marty Robbins and others on this). But, yes, English vaudeville and Big Band, too. I believe both Lennon and McCartney are on record as stating that their ambition in the beginning was to write a song for Sinatra. The Beatles were as eclectic in their influences as in their output. Check out the list of their covers. Check out who covers them.
   340. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 07, 2013 at 08:55 PM (#4383437)
Just out of curiosity, how many songs have been the subjects of books? Completely off the top of my head, I can think of "Strange Fruit" & "Louie, Louie."

Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing had a first rate festschrift of sorts on the occasion of its 100th anniversary, with 100 essays written in commemoration.

Oh, and surprise, surprise....
   341. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 07, 2013 at 08:59 PM (#4383444)
And Lassus, when ignorance wants to revel in itself, you can't stop it. Just let them revel in peace. Admittedly it's taken me a while to figure that out myself, but better late than never.
   342. zenbitz Posted: March 07, 2013 at 09:22 PM (#4383468)
@328 - Iron Maiden has a song about Dune, and a song about the Rime of the Ancient Mariner.

OH. I got it backwards.


I always wanted to host a gameshow "Name that Ramones Song". Sometimes it's just "Name that Metal Song".

I can name that Ramones song in 3 chords!
   343. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: March 07, 2013 at 09:22 PM (#4383469)
All this talk about influence and musical movements really makes me wonder what might have happened to the course of popular music had The Beach Boys' Smile been released as scheduled back in 1967. It's the only Great Lost Album that actually lives up to (maybe even exceeds) the hype, and it was not only light years away from anything The Beach Boys had done before, it was miles ahead of anything anyone was doing in rock. I find it sad and ironic that Brian Wilson apparently felt crushed when he heard Sgt. Pepper in June of 1967 (he apparently said "they got there first -- they beat me") because Smile is so much weirder, more avant-garde, and more musically sophisticated than anything on that album or most any other Beatles album for that matter. (And mind you I think the Beatles are objectively the greatest rock group of all time.) The hip musical world (especially in the UK) was dying to hear what The Beach Boys would follow Pet Sounds with...had this landed at the time, who knows what would have happened in response?

Part of me thinks it would have had a ripple effect (especially among 'tastemakers' i.e. musicians and those who would go on to become musicians) akin to that of The Velvet Underground in terms of lasting influence. Then again, I also sometimes think it would have stood alone for the simple reason that nobody else in rock was really capable of writing & arranging like Brian Wilson or singing such complex harmonies as the band.
   344. Publius Publicola Posted: March 07, 2013 at 10:24 PM (#4383510)
What was wrong with "Radio Radio", to be honest it's really the only Costello song I know well, and I've always found it a jaunty tune to bop to.


Whaa? You don't know Allison or Pump It Up or Red Shoes or Watching the Detective or What's So Funny About Peace, Love and Understanding? The only album I own of Costello's is Spike but I remember all those songs just by hearing them on the radio a few times.
   345. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 07, 2013 at 11:56 PM (#4383601)
   346. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 08, 2013 at 12:15 AM (#4383613)
It's also reached the world of remainders, along with Ulysses, pretty much every book George Orwell wrote before Animal Farm, every book that William Faulkner ever wrote, period, and last and least, every Bill James Abstract, both Annual and Historical. It happens to the best of them.

But in any event it wasn't the subtitle that was the answer to the question that was asked. The question was simply "how many songs have been the subjects of books?", and "We Shall Overcome" is one of the answers.

OTOH that list of books about things that have "changed the world" could probably be expanded tenfold. And the books that are subtitled "The year that changed the world" is practically a list unto itself. There's probably at least one entry for every century going back to ancient Greece.
   347. Lassus Posted: March 08, 2013 at 12:21 AM (#4383618)
I read that book on mauve.
   348. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 08, 2013 at 12:24 AM (#4383622)
That Atlantic Ocean was really something back when it changed the world, but it's not that special anymore.
   349. Morty Causa Posted: March 08, 2013 at 12:33 AM (#4383628)
   350. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 08, 2013 at 01:10 AM (#4383661)
The Civil Rights Movement wasn't successful because it had the best song - it had a convincing case that equality under the law was the higher moral ground. That would have still been the case if We Shall Overcome had never been written. WSO may resonate with a lot of people because of its association with an important cause, but that doesn't make it musically significant beyond that association.

   351. Morty Causa Posted: March 08, 2013 at 01:18 AM (#4383678)
And it doesn't make it the progenitor of the movement--or even make it a chicken and egg thing. We know the movement made the song iconic, not the other way around. In fact, it wasn't necessary at all to have a movement for change. The movement was if you were going to have change.
   352. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 08, 2013 at 01:31 AM (#4383691)
The Civil Rights Movement wasn't successful because it had the best song - it had a convincing case that equality under the law was the higher moral ground. That would have still been the case if We Shall Overcome had never been written. WSO may resonate with a lot of people because of its association with an important cause, but that doesn't make it musically significant beyond that association.

The point isn't its musical significance, and certainly not its significance to those who never experienced it in real time, it's the courage it reinforced among many millions of people who by their actions were (yes, Gonfalon) changing the world in far more tangible ways than any Beatles song ever did, great as the Beatles were.**

And Morty, do you really do think your inane comparisons with every TV sitcom you can think of have anything to do with anything beyond trying to demonstrate your own cleverness? You seem to think you're Christopher Hitchens bravely puncturing the pretensions of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, whereas in reality you're coming across as little more than a variant of a right wing radio shock jock. This has not been your finest hour.

**Though I do admit that the Beatles sold a lot more jeans, soft drinks and computers than any mere "political" song ever could. Score one for that.
   353. bigglou115 Posted: March 08, 2013 at 01:36 AM (#4383702)
I'm just gonna throw this out there, but a thread where the discussion moves from the potential suspension of half the Yankees production to a critique and defense of the cultural impact of the song "We Shall Overcome" has to be one of the more unexpected shifts I've seen on this site.
   354. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 08, 2013 at 01:41 AM (#4383713)
And it doesn't make it the progenitor of the movement--or even make it a chicken and egg thing. We know the movement made the song iconic, not the other way around.

It's not surprising that the concept of a song reinforcing an atomized** movement's courage in its worst moments of crisis is something beyond your limited comprehension. You couldn't find a single person who was engaged in that movement during that period who would subscribe to your pathetically narrow perspective.

**The times when that song worked its greatest wonders was not during the national marches that were safely guarded, but rather in isolated jail cells and churches throughout the South, surrounded by immanent threats of violence and even death. But this is like trying to explain Rembrandt to a blind man.

   355. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 08, 2013 at 01:43 AM (#4383717)
I'm just gonna throw this out there, but a thread where the discussion moves from the potential suspension of half the Yankees production to a critique and defense of the cultural impact of the song "We Shall Overcome" has to be one of the more unexpected shifts I've seen on this site.

Stick around. This is nothing. I'm sure it'll get around to Star Wars and the Franco-Prussian war before it dies a merciful death.
   356. Morty Causa Posted: March 08, 2013 at 01:44 AM (#4383719)
352:

You seem to think you're Christopher Hitchens bravely puncturing the pretensions of the Roman Catholic hierarchy,

??? You're confusing your threads, I think.


EDIT: Irregardless, though, just between you and I, what did I say about the Catholic hierarchy that made you come out of left with that? My comments on the other thread were even-handed and judicious, I think, as I believe they are here.

   357. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 08, 2013 at 01:48 AM (#4383723)
This debate is still a bit silly and self-fulfilling. I'll just say that when the most significant song nominees are all inextricably tied to game-changing political and social movements (e.g. "We Shall Overcome," "The Internationale"), warfare (e.g. "Yankee Doodle," "Over There"), and religion (e.g. "Ave Maria," "Swing Low Sweet Chariot"), or combinations thereof (e.g. "La Marseillaise," "Battle Hymn of the Republic"), that tells you more about those independently existing forces' power to imbue songs with larger meaning than it does about the songs' power to do vice versa. I already know those things shape history without needing to hum it.
   358. bigglou115 Posted: March 08, 2013 at 01:52 AM (#4383729)
Stick around. This is nothing. I'm sure it'll get around to Star Wars and the Franco-Prussian war before it dies a merciful death.


Oh, I've been around long enough to see the swerves this place can take, but there's usually rhyme or reason to it. This was particularly unpredictable for me.
   359. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: March 08, 2013 at 03:17 AM (#4383780)
I'm just gonna throw this out there, but a thread where the discussion moves from the potential suspension of half the Yankees production to a critique and defense of the cultural impact of the song "We Shall Overcome" has to be one of the more unexpected shifts I've seen on this site.
Heck, I remember a thread where we moved from Ryan Braun to political debate, to racism in sports to Yankee_Redneck educating the rest of us on the ins and outs of old-timey boxing. And all within the span of 150 posts or so.

I tried to get us onto Great Lost Albums here but nothin' doing, apparently.
   360. Greg K Posted: March 08, 2013 at 04:36 AM (#4383788)
Whaa? You don't know Allison or Pump It Up or Red Shoes or Watching the Detective or What's So Funny About Peace, Love and Understanding? The only album I own of Costello's is Spike but I remember all those songs just by hearing them on the radio a few times.

That's probably the difference. I don't think I was alive when Elvis Costello was played on the radio. I should say, I quite like the Costello that I do know...just a cultural blind spot I haven't found the time to look at yet.
   361. spike Posted: March 08, 2013 at 04:40 AM (#4383789)
What was wrong with "Radio Radio"

It's a pretty brutal commentary on how mass media tries to stifle artistic creativity, specifically AOR versus the punk/new wave movement of the day.

I was tuning in the shine on the light night dial
Doing anything my radio advised
With every one of those late night stations
Playing songs, bringing tears to me eyes
I was seriously thinking about hiding the receiver
When the switch broke 'cause it's old
They're saying things that I can hardly believe
They really think we're getting out of control

Radio is a sound salvation
Radio is cleaning up the nation
They say you better listen to the voice of reason
But they don't give you any choice
'Cause they think that it's treason
So you had better do as you are told
You better listen to the radio

I wanna bite the hand that feeds me
I wanna bite that hand so badly
I wanna make them wish they'd never seen me

Some of my friends sit around every evening
And they worry about the times ahead
But everybody else is overwhelmed by indifference
And the promise of an early bed

You either shut up or get cut out
They don't wanna hear about it
It's only inches on the reel-to-reel
And the radio is in the hands of such a lot of fools
Tryin' to anaesthetise the way that you feel

Radio is a sound salvation
Radio is cleaning up the nation
They say you better listen to the voice of reason
But they don't give you any choice
'Cause they think that it's treason
So you had better do as you are told
You better listen to the radio


"You either shut up or get cut-out" is a particularly wonderfully snarky line, for those who remember cut-outs.
   362. spike Posted: March 08, 2013 at 04:56 AM (#4383793)
I don't think I was alive when Elvis Costello was played on the radio.

I am 51. Elvis was nothing short of a phenomena for my time starting in late '77 or so. It was like having Hank Williams and Cole Porter all rolled into one, and it lasted. Those first seven albums are as stunning a sustained debut as any I experienced firsthand. There has never been another time for me where I would literally go to the record store the day the record came out. Just amazing pop music.
   363. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:15 AM (#4383811)
People, he's not just an old guy with a goofy hat. Start with This Year's Model, Armed Forces, or Get Happy!! (2nd - 4th albums) - amazing stuff.
   364. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 08, 2013 at 09:31 AM (#4383840)
People, he's not just an old guy with a goofy hat. Start with This Year's Model, Armed Forces, or Get Happy!! (2nd - 4th albums) - amazing stuff.

He is to Joan Baez (*) what Sandy Koufax is to the guy in the VW Passat commercial.

(*) Yes, even when she's gurgling We Shall Overcome.
   365. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 08, 2013 at 09:34 AM (#4383843)
Hong Kong is up for grabs
London is full of Arabas
We could be in Palestine
Overrun by a Chinese line
With the boys from the Mersey and the Thames and the Tyne
But there's no danger
It's a professional career
Though it could be arranged
With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
If you're out of luck you're out of work
We could send you to Johannesburg
   366. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 08, 2013 at 10:33 AM (#4383898)
Just because WSO did not necessarily cause anything does not mean it is not most influential. It is a song and arguing that no song accrues meaningful influence just sets the bar lower when looking across songs. Also suggesting "it was just there, if not it then something" may be true, but reality counts.

The history of sports and everywhere else is littered with people who do great things that easily could have been someone else, but they were not. On some level you have to acknowledge that people really did sing OWS and it was important to a movement, even if in an alternate reality some other song could have filled that role.
   367. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 08, 2013 at 11:15 AM (#4383923)
On some level you have to acknowledge that people really did sing OWS and it was important to a movement

And on some level you have to acknowledge that the seminal version of it -- Joan Baez's -- is unspeakably dated and dreadful. If I'd have been at the MOW, her arrival on stage would have influenced me to retire to the facilities, or better yet, to go grab a half smoke and a 40.
   368. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 08, 2013 at 11:37 AM (#4383942)
Just because WSO did not necessarily cause anything does not mean it is not most influential. It is a song and arguing that no song accrues meaningful influence just sets the bar lower when looking across songs. Also suggesting "it was just there, if not it then something" may be true, but reality counts.

Several people have commented that if "We Shall Overcome" had never existed, then some other song would have been adopted to fulfill all of its functions. Beyond the historical ignorance that lies behind that thought, there's also the fact that if you're going to hold it against a song that it didn't "change the world" all by itself (which of course it didn't, and nobody has ever claimed that), then what are you going to say about any song?

Did "I Want to Hold Your Hand" change the world? Did "Heartbreak Hotel"? Did "Maybelline"? Did "Like a Rolling Stone"? Don't be ridiculous. If you were going to say that rock 'n' roll as a genre "changed the world", you'd be onto something. But to make that claim that for any particular song is complete BS. How long does any pop song stay #1 on the charts? What's the record for that? Sixteen weeks. And then what? By that standard, "We Shall Overcome" was the #1 hit of the civil rights movement---and was adopted by parallel movements worldwide from Ireland to Africa---from the time it was first introduced in its final form to the time those movements had run their course, with a transformed world as their legacy.

This is why the distinction exists between "musically" influential and "politically" influential, meaning "political" in the broadest sense of the word, as opposed to the "merely political". "We Shall Overcome" was scarcely innovative in any musical sense, having emerged from the gospel tradition, as did virtually all the songs in the freedom movement. But nobody has claimed that it was. And to try to refute a claim that's not being made is just wasting your energy fighting a straw horse.
   369. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 08, 2013 at 11:45 AM (#4383954)
And on some level you have to acknowledge that the seminal version of it -- Joan Baez's -- is unspeakably dated and dreadful.

Who in the #### has ever claimed that there was any "seminal version" of "We Shall Overcome"? Joan Baez herself probably sang it several thousand times, sometimes better than others, but until now I've never heard anyone claim that any of those renditions were "seminal" or "definitive". If you want to try to pick out a "seminal" version of that song, you would have to have had tape recorders set up in hundreds of Southern jails and thousands of Southern churches, where largely anonymous individuals and groups sang it in defiance of jailers and surrounding mobs. To trivialize it by citing a commercial version, no matter what your opinion of the one you heard might be, only goes to show just how little you know what you're talking about. Which is totally in character with everything you've written in this thread.
   370. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 08, 2013 at 11:51 AM (#4383959)

This is why the distinction exists between "musically" influential and "politically" influential, meaning "political" in the broadest sense of the word, as opposed to the "merely political". "We Shall Overcome" was scarcely innovative in any musical sense, having emerged from the gospel tradition, as did virtually all the songs in the freedom movement. But nobody has claimed that it was. And to try to refute a claim that's not being made is just wasting your energy fighting a straw horse.


The claim that you made was that it was easily the generation's most influential song. There's no sense in which that's true. Accepting your claim that it influenced some people to overcome hardships while unjustly jailed (*), that group is a subset of a niche of the entire generation. If, as is reasonably suspected (**), your focus is the stirring of the political consciousness of the black members of the generation, the challenge is to explain how WSO was more "influential" than something like Coltrane's A Love Supreme, a masterpiece that still sounds fresh and brilliant in March 2013 (or any other candidates people can come up with).

Don't just rely on your aggrandizement of your life and times at the expense of everything that came before and after -- endemic to your generation, by the way. Show your work, Baby Boom.

(*) And, honestly, if the choice was my iPod in jail, or freedom and reel after reel of Joan Baez's WSO, I'd probably take jail.

(**) Based on, e.g., your blithe dismissal of the Beatles' appeal to "frat boys" and your plaintive quest to learn about "whose aesthetics" we were discussing.
   371. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 08, 2013 at 11:55 AM (#4383962)
Who in the #### has ever claimed that there was any "seminal version" of "We Shall Overcome"?

How wouldn't it be the seminal version? She sang it at the MOW; hers was the version behind which history unfolded.
   372. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 08, 2013 at 11:56 AM (#4383964)
@328 - Iron Maiden has a song about Dune, and a song about the Rime of the Ancient Mariner.

OH. I got it backwards.


Still, that's pretty interesting, at least to me.

Naked Raygun had a song about Asimov's Foundation.
   373. Morty Causa Posted: March 08, 2013 at 12:02 PM (#4383973)
JOLLY OLD is so confused (and angry) it is hardly worth discussing this with him. Everything that is said in contravention of his assertion about the song is in his heart a slight of The Movement (and of his participation in it, which participation I find brave and admirable, from what I know of it). But, he doesn't even seem to understand what point he's trying to make.
   374. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 08, 2013 at 12:03 PM (#4383974)
More SBB babbling about irrelevancies, I see. At least Coltrane's an improvement over Morty's TV shows and girl scout songs.

(*) And, honestly, if the choice was my iPod in jail, or freedom and reel after reel of Joan Baez's WSO, I'd probably take jail.

If only we could give you that choice.

Who in the #### has ever claimed that there was any "seminal version" of "We Shall Overcome"?

How wouldn't it be the seminal version? She sang it at the MOW; hers was the version behind which history unfolded.


Since your knowledge of the civil rights movement apparently begins and ends with one event in 1963, I guess I can understand your confusion.
   375. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 08, 2013 at 12:03 PM (#4383975)
I tried to get us onto Great Lost Albums here but nothin' doing, apparently.


How many are there? I'm admittedly punk-centric; off the top of my head, I can think of the Subway Sect LP that never came out in '77, the Motorcyle Boy's (ex-Shop Assistants singer, not the U.S. act of the same name) Scarlet from '89 or so & what would've been Fur's second LP in the late '90s.

No doubt I'm forgetting quite a few, though.

Edit: Oh, & what would've been the Units' 2nd & 3rd, I believe both with Bill Nelson producing. Those guys must've been snakebit as hell.
   376. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 08, 2013 at 12:06 PM (#4383981)
JOLLY OLD is so confused (and angry) it is hardly worth discussing this with him. Everything that is said that is said in contravention of his assertion about the song is in his heart a slight of The Movement (and of his participation in it, which participation I find brave and admirable, from what I know of it). But, he doesn't even seem to understand what point he's trying to make.

You love quotes, Morty, and this one applies in spades to you and SBB:

"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not" - Jeremiah 5:21
   377. zenbitz Posted: March 08, 2013 at 12:11 PM (#4383986)
I am also pretty sure Iron Maidens' "out of a silent planet" is about Judge Death from the Dredd comics.
   378. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 08, 2013 at 12:18 PM (#4383992)
"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not" - Jeremiah 5:21

"Before disco this country really was a dancing wasteland. You know the Woodstock generation of the 1960s, that were so full of themselves and conceited? None of those people could dance."

--Charlotte (Kate Beckinsale), The Last Days of Disco (1998)
   379. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 08, 2013 at 12:23 PM (#4383997)
Other than Smile, only "lost" album I've ever heard was Jon Brion's version of Fiona Apple's Extraordinary Machine. It's fine.
   380. Morty Causa Posted: March 08, 2013 at 12:47 PM (#4384019)
You love quotes, Morty, and this one applies in spades to you and SBB:

"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not" - Jeremiah 5:21


Bart: You make me sick, Homer. You're the one that told me I could do anything if I just put my mind to it.
Homer: Well now that you're a little bit older I can tell you that's a crock. No matter how good you are at something, there's always about a million people better than you.
Bart: Gotcha. Can't win, don't try.
   381. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: March 08, 2013 at 01:55 PM (#4384099)
"Before disco this country really was a dancing wasteland. You know the Woodstock generation of the 1960s, that were so full of themselves and conceited? None of those people could dance."

--Charlotte (Kate Beckinsale), The Last Days of Disco (1998)


SBB quoting Whit Stillman only strengthens my theory that SBB and Armond White are the same people.
   382. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 08, 2013 at 02:23 PM (#4384136)
SBB quoting Whit Stillman only strengthens my theory that SBB and Armond White are the same people.

Even though I like Morty in spite of everything I've written here, I'm not always sure that he doesn't live a parallel life as Mr. Burns. Not that there's anything wrong with that, since the man certainly does have style.
   383. Lassus Posted: March 08, 2013 at 02:24 PM (#4384137)
SBB quoting Whit Stillman only strengthens my theory that SBB and Armond White are the same people.

Holy crap, that's... a little scary.
   384. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 08, 2013 at 02:29 PM (#4384144)
No history, even a political history, of WSO can claim to be complete without reference to this gem from 1992 Sweden. The speaker/would-be-MC is the Immigration Minister, her colleague is the Prime Minister; the citizens are concerned about a rash of immigrant murders around Stockholm.

She'd have been better off going with Dancing Queen. (Never mind the Swedish, the good parts are in English (and the nonverbal cues are universal)).
   385. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 08, 2013 at 02:43 PM (#4384158)
Morty, if I may ask, where are you from?
   386. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 08, 2013 at 02:48 PM (#4384161)
Was wondering that myself. I think he's said before, but my memory isn't as good as I'd like it to be. Maybe New Orleans?
   387. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 08, 2013 at 03:11 PM (#4384192)
SO I am actually pretty agnostic on greatest song of X generation, but what contenders have the "Not WSO, never WSO, Andy is a poopybutt" crowd put forth to challenge it?

I have heard some random songs thrown out, but not any put forth as the stake in the ground, X is the most influential song.

Musically I would guess an early Rock & Roll song, first British Invasion Song, or maybe a classic staple like Satisfaction or Like a Rolling Stone, but I give Andy credit for having an opinion and going outside the box a bit.
   388. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: March 08, 2013 at 03:28 PM (#4384219)
Peak Elvis was THE Elvis. Hearing "Watching the Detectives" live for the first time was up there with "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock".

And We Need to Talk About Kevin is painful to watch.
   389. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 08, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4384243)
If you're talking about the most "musically influential" song, that's almost impossible to say, but one strong contender would have to be Presley's "Heartbreak Hotel". Elvis was the first singer to bring R&R into the mainstream**, and "Heartbreak Hotel" was his first breakthrough hit. So by that standard it's kind of hard to think of a more "influential" song, even if few people today under the age of about 50 or 55 may be even aware of its existence, and even if "musically" it wasn't particularly original.

** Strictly speaking, Bill Haley may have come along before Elvis on the charts, but no middle aged rocker with a bad toupee was ever going to be more imitated and influential than the 21 year old Elvis Presley.
   390. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 08, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4384245)
SO I am actually pretty agnostic on greatest song of X generation, but what contenders have the "Not WSO, never WSO, Andy is a poopybutt" crowd put forth to challenge it?

Tough to measure, because it's so intangible and private. If you take an "art for art's sake" perspective, and a point of view that greatness begets greatness, thereby deeming it noble to attempt to read the best things written, view the best paintings painted, and listen to the best songs composed, the answer boils down to whichever song was the best.

The answer to that question, whatever the answer is, is not We Shall Overcome.

EDIT: If you could do a non-classical album, rather than a song, and defined the era as 1962-67, the top contenders would probably have to include Rubber Soul, Revolver, The Velvet Undergrond and Nico, and A Love Supreme. I'd probably rank those 1. Velvets; 2. Love Supreme; 3. Revolver; 4. Rubber Soul. If you extend the era endpoint further, you start getting into the beginning of the Stones' peak, which muddies things considerably.
   391. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 08, 2013 at 03:49 PM (#4384255)
If you take an "art for art's sake" perspective, and a point of view that greatness begets greatness, thereby deeming it noble to attempt to read the best things written, view the best paintings painted, and listen to the best songs composed, the answer boils down to whichever song was the best.

Okay, then, if it's art for art's sake, let's just say the Hallelujah chorus and skip all the silliness about Elvis Presley or the Beatles.
   392. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 08, 2013 at 03:54 PM (#4384261)
Among other vagueries, there's an undefined mashup of "most influential" with "most inspirational" going on here. A little more clarity would lead to a little less bristling.

The frequently rewritten and updated "John Brown's Body" was centrally used to inspire the abolitionist movement, and also Northern Civil War soldiers, and also the suffrage movement, and also the workers/union movement... and eventually, students whose teacher hit them with a ruler. Ranking the nominees solely on sociopolitical impact still strikes me as a faulty premise. But for those who want to do that, I think Mr. Brown has got to be the clubhouse leader as far as breadth and "having legs" is concerned.
   393. Jay Z Posted: March 08, 2013 at 04:02 PM (#4384276)
All this talk about influence and musical movements really makes me wonder what might have happened to the course of popular music had The Beach Boys' Smile been released as scheduled back in 1967. It's the only Great Lost Album that actually lives up to (maybe even exceeds) the hype, and it was not only light years away from anything The Beach Boys had done before, it was miles ahead of anything anyone was doing in rock. I find it sad and ironic that Brian Wilson apparently felt crushed when he heard Sgt. Pepper in June of 1967 (he apparently said "they got there first -- they beat me") because Smile is so much weirder, more avant-garde, and more musically sophisticated than anything on that album or most any other Beatles album for that matter. (And mind you I think the Beatles are objectively the greatest rock group of all time.) The hip musical world (especially in the UK) was dying to hear what The Beach Boys would follow Pet Sounds with...had this landed at the time, who knows what would have happened in response?

Part of me thinks it would have had a ripple effect (especially among 'tastemakers' i.e. musicians and those who would go on to become musicians) akin to that of The Velvet Underground in terms of lasting influence. Then again, I also sometimes think it would have stood alone for the simple reason that nobody else in rock was really capable of writing & arranging like Brian Wilson or singing such complex harmonies as the band.


But Pet Sounds didn't sell that well by BB standards. Didn't Beach Boys Party sell better than Pet Sounds? Now Good Vibrations sold, but Barbara Ann also sold, as did Sloop John B. I'm not sure Good Vibrations was going to wow people by being on Smile because it had been out for months by the time the album would have been released. The Beatles didn't put Strawberry Fields or Penny Lane on Pepper. Heroes And Villains was similar in scope to Good Vibrations, but it wasn't good enough as a centerpiece. Didn't measure up to A Day In The Life.

It was a moment in time, and Wilson was right in that once it took too long, the audience moved on to other things. The Beach Boys deserve respect, but the whole Brian Wilson as genius bit is overblown.
   394. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 08, 2013 at 04:08 PM (#4384283)
390: I don't know about greatest, but, of that bunch, I go Revolver / Love Supreme / Banana.
Not a bad bunch.
   395. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: March 08, 2013 at 05:55 PM (#4384411)
mysterious, time-lagged double post.

I was too young at the time to get the subtleties of Pet Sounds, then some years later, not knowing the pedigree, it seemed not especially impressive in light of what The Beatls and other groups had done in the studio.
   396. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:27 PM (#4384471)
another, nysterious, time-lagged triple post.


WTF is going on here?
   397. Morty Causa Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:27 PM (#4384474)
"Before disco this country really was a dancing wasteland. You know the Woodstock generation of the 1960s, that were so full of themselves and conceited? None of those people could dance."


The Beatles tolled the death knell of dancing--thank God. The group itself didn't do it--much of their early stuff is highly danceable to--but it's what followed, what they dragged into the '60s proper with them.
   398. Greg K Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:31 PM (#4384488)
"Before disco this country really was a dancing wasteland. You know the Woodstock generation of the 1960s, that were so full of themselves and conceited? None of those people could dance."

--Charlotte (Kate Beckinsale), The Last Days of Disco (1998)


I think I brought it up here recently before, but I really, really like that movie!

(Though Charlotte is pretty clearly severely mentally unhinged, I don't know if I trust her assessment of cultural history.)
   399. Morty Causa Posted: March 08, 2013 at 06:37 PM (#4384505)
Even though I like Morty in spite of everything I've written here, I'm not always sure that he doesn't live a parallel life as Mr. Burns. Not that there's anything wrong with that, since the man certainly does have style.


Excellent. Once again, the wheel has turned and Dame Fortune has hugged Mordecai Causa into her sweet perfumed bosom. Somebody up there likes me.
   400. Jay Z Posted: March 08, 2013 at 08:23 PM (#4384604)
Double post
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