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Possibly obligatory.
Point taken, and well taken. Dylan's early years were formed by not just the civil rights movement, but by Woody Guthrie and earlier folk artists of an activist bent. His musical response to that was what got him invited onto Sullivan, but you can't argue with chronology, and though I hadn't previously known it, the Sullivan appearance preceded the MOW.
(And for that matter, for all I know it was the Sullivan appearance that got him invited to the March. Prior to that march, Dylan wasn't exactly a well-known quantity within the civil rights movement, but given his then-current repertory and his Sullivan exposure, it made perfect sense to have him be one of the warmup acts for the main speakers on the Mall.)
Or you can just youtube "March on Washington" and see most of it as the TV cameras showed it BITD.
In fact, I just listened to Joan Baez croon "We Shall Overcome." I've heard better.
I'm afraid you did "have to be there" to truly understand the impact not only of We Shall Overcome, but of the entire role of music in keeping hope alive in days when white supremacy was as embedded in the DNA of this country as salt is in Doritos.
If there are any universal truths out there, one of them is that this is the kind of thing people say when describing the music and events of the time they were young. The arguably closer connection between a small niche of popular music and political action during the Civil Rights Era doesn't change this timeless truth an iota.
Half of it is utterly brilliant (the other half are genre exercises that didn't really work for me).
With every network running it live, and with the late afternoon timing, I'd imagine it would have been quite a lot.
For me the irony is that although I'd been at the March beginning around 7:00 in the morning, by the time King got up to the podium I'd gotten on the bus and gone up to visit my parents. For many of the SNCC marchers the highlight of the day was to be John Lewis's highly edited speech, and when that was over, the fatigue started to set in. It wasn't one of my brighter decisions.
Supposedly, NBC didn't want him to play "Radio Radio," so he stopped the band a few moments into "Less Than Zero" (which had no meaning for American audiences anyway, since it concerned the old British fascist leader Oswald Moseley) & played the former instead.
Edit: Beverage of Gonfalon's choice.
[Costello's peak is, for my preferences, the highest of any solo artist. Adore him.]
If there are any universal truths out there, one of them is that this is the kind of thing people say when describing the music and events of the time they were young. The arguably closer connection between a small niche of popular music and political action during the Civil Rights Era doesn't change this timeless truth an iota.
That kind of begs the question of the relative influence of various genres of music once you step outside of the realm of music. I doubt if many history mavens with encyclopedic knowledge of the role of We Shall Overcome, I Want to Hold Your Hand, Like A Rolling Stone, and the greatest hit of The Who in shaping the world as we know it today, would ever have any trouble stating that the first of those songs was far more "influential" than the other three.
Not snark, but how would one ever measure how influential a song was (assuming popularity did not figure into it too heavily)?
I have no idea how that could be argued one way or another. Unless we are talking musically influenctial, which I guess could be determined, but I am pretty sure that is not the influence we are talking.
(More seriously, I don't know either.)
same thing, back when I was 20 or whatever.
You guys are arguing impressions. One can't argue impressions. Andy's is that WSO was "influential." YMMV, its the nature of this kind of thing. It was a powerful
song I suppose.
Jim Crow was goin' down either way.
Obviously it's not anything that can be measured quantitatively, but....
If you want to determine the most influential song (or singers) within the realm of music, you might ask as many musicians as you can who their major musical influences were, and then augment that by seeing if you can discover what past generations of musicians said. You may or may not get a final answer, and you'd have to take it by genre (Bach probably didn't have much direct influence on The Who), but at least that'd be one way of beginning.
And if you want to try to determine which song had the greatest influence on history beyond the realm of music, you might want to ask as many political historians as you could find who were acquainted with a broad range of music. One such historian who's very well versed in both social/political history and the history of 60's pop music would be Douglas Brinkley of Rice, who's written and talked extensively on both subjects for the last 25 years.
Beyond that, you'd want to talk to a broad cross section of people who participated in history changing movements and ask them. It'd require a lot of work, but it'd give you a much more coherent answer than just googling Billboard charts or Nielson ratings.
Which reminds me of a different historian named Brinkley (David's son, in fact), Alan, & that I need to unearth my copy of his Voices of Protest. I don't believe I've read anything of Douglas'.
For instance, the Velvet Underground's influence was far greater than their sales suggests - sure - but just becasue the people that bought their albums started bands doesn't mean that those same people weren't also influenced by, I dunno, bubblegum pop, in ways they didn't want to admit to (or were conscious of). A thing observed or asked of is a thing changed.
I don't mean to suggest that just because we're all black boxes means that analysis is impossible but I'm less confident in man's ability to suss these things out than I once was.
Just to keep our eye on the ball, though, the claim that got me involved was that WSO was more influential on a "generation" than any work of the Beatles or the Who -- and, really, by implication anyone else. I would intrepret that to mean far more than merely politics, instead something like "the aesthetics, tastes, and souls."
Everyone has a song--even Monty Burns
As in the first 4 Ramones albums? That's a no-brainer, man!
(I kid, well a little)
There is something -- well, a lot -- to that, but when you throw in "Bonzo Goes to Bitberg" & "You Don't Come Close" & "Questioningly," for starters ... man, those guys had some serious pop chops.
Ridiculously good song.
Joey Ramone used to come into Pauls's Lounge every so often in the EV when me and my friends would be watching the Knicks/Lakers or something kinda late--
because there was no cable in my building until about 1988 or so, I had to go out and drink to see games. Anyway, you had to do the too cool to drool bit,
and pretend you didn't notice a famous guy across the bar. It was required to avoid harsh mockery.
I guess I'm not sure how a movement that managed to transform the United States from South Africa Lite to the rainbow nation we inhabit today can be pigeonholed into a category of "merely politics."
In terms of influences on "aesthetics, tastes, and souls," Whose aesthetics? Whose tastes? Whose souls? All popular music influences other popular music. Where would the Beatles have been without Chuck Berry? Where would Elvis have been without gospel music (both white and black) and R&B? If any particular Beatles song had never been written, what difference would that have really made? It's not as if they were one hit wonders, but it's also not as if they were really more influential (or was it more "famous"?) than Jesus.
OTOH while on a certain level "We Shall Overcome" was indeed "just one song among many", to those who were "there" (sorry, boys), it was far more than that. Morty's childish comparison to "campfire songs" misses the point entirely. There were countless cases of people being held without bail in hellhole jails, unspeakable conditions, who used that song as a symbol of defiance, and by singing it in the face of even more beatings they reinforced that defiance, and eventually wore down those walls. I'm terribly sorry that this can't be quantified, but it's every bit as real as the number of frat boys whose "consciousness" was transformed, or whose sense of "aesthetics" was altered, under the spell of the Sgt. Pepper album.
----------------------------------
WSO is just the same verse over and over again,
There were probably more verses sung to that song, both "official" and improvised, than any song you could ever name. One more demonstration that you have no idea what you're talking about.
----------------------------------
I'll let the two of you mutually masturbate in your infinite knowledge of history, or at least in your indisputable knowledge of Ed Sullivan and The Simpsons. I'm only mildly surprised that you didn't summon up some mathematical formula to reinforce your cluelessness.
I meant the melody. Not the lyrics. Time for you nap, it would seem.
The "generation" whose membership you insisted was far more influenced by WSO than the Beatles, the Who, and other musicians. Life is far more rich than mere politics (*), and politics is far more rich than protests and taking to the barricades.
(*) Though to repeat again, "political" music has been done far more skillfully and with far more sophistication than WSO. John Lennon himself composed "Give Peace a Chance," a far better song than WSO. I'm pretty sure somebody somewhere has sung it while the billy clubs were swinging.
We shall overreact
We shall overreact
We shall overreact to-day.
Andy, in a hypothetical world with no "We Shall Overcome," you would've sung something else in solidarity and in defiance-- "We Shall Not Be Moved" or "Oh Freedom" or "George Wallace is a Scowling Doucheface"-- and that's the song that would have ended up carrying WSO's intense meaning for you and America. You're taking the song's accrued meaning, and saying it was the agent of that meaning. It's not masturbating all over your life experience to note that the song's influence and the movement's influence weren't literally synonymous. One caused the other, not vice versa, and how is that any kind of problem? "Which came first, the chicken or the parmigiana?"
Not to mention Nirvana playing Territorial Pissings on Jonathan Ross rather than the single they said they'd play!
What was wrong with "Radio Radio", to be honest it's really the only Costello song I know well, and I've always found it a jaunty tune to bop to.
Don't make me come over there.
Alastair Bellany argues that early 17th century libel poetry (which was a kind of genre of political satire verse, some of which were designed to be set to music), created a political culture in which the assassination of the Duke of Buckingham was both imaginable and desirable. Maybe one of those is in the running!
Having lived in music training and performance for decades, I don't think I can fully agree with this seemingly reasonable statement. It is a little like saying that if Beethoven had come up with a different four-note theme at the start of the 5th, it wouldn't have mattered at all, something else would have fit the bill somewhere. To be topical it's similar to saying the Johnson brothers' "Lift Ev'ry Voice" would have been replaced by something else and the effect on the community singing it would have been utterly negligible. I think it is more than a bit soulless to toss aside the tangible and even historical effect of one melody over another so cavalierly.
Just as good. The Beatles had many, many influences, everything from Berry to Tinpan Alley to Ravi Shankar. Subtract one and you do not get a significant difference.
Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing had a first rate festschrift of sorts on the occasion of its 100th anniversary, with 100 essays written in commemoration.
Oh, and surprise, surprise....
OH. I got it backwards.
I always wanted to host a gameshow "Name that Ramones Song". Sometimes it's just "Name that Metal Song".
I can name that Ramones song in 3 chords!
Part of me thinks it would have had a ripple effect (especially among 'tastemakers' i.e. musicians and those who would go on to become musicians) akin to that of The Velvet Underground in terms of lasting influence. Then again, I also sometimes think it would have stood alone for the simple reason that nobody else in rock was really capable of writing & arranging like Brian Wilson or singing such complex harmonies as the band.
Whaa? You don't know Allison or Pump It Up or Red Shoes or Watching the Detective or What's So Funny About Peace, Love and Understanding? The only album I own of Costello's is Spike but I remember all those songs just by hearing them on the radio a few times.
Andy, an experienced bookseller like you shouldn’t be overimpressed by the subtitle used to hawk a book. But at least “We Shall Overcome” has reached the rarified world-changing status only granted to the elite of the elite, such as the banana, the color mauve, unless it’s indigo, Paris 1919, The Twist, 50 dresses, Leeds, England, 12 lesbians, cod, tea cosies, Simon Cowell, the electric guitar, the Atlantic Ocean, Gerald Ford’s Presidency, Starbucks, Lady Diana, the Excel spreadsheet, the dot, moms, Guinness beer, Vidal Sassoon, the Tommy Burns-Jack Johnson fight, Southwest Airlines, tartan, the container box, container ships, a bunny rabbit on Facebook, the 1960 Olympics, 50 Irish women, the Beatles’ 1964 and 1965 tours, among other gigs, the Beatles and U2, Nike sneakers, the Crocodile Hunter, and the U.S. Women’s Soccer team.
The guy I feel sorry for is poor Vice President Thomas Riley Marshall.
But in any event it wasn't the subtitle that was the answer to the question that was asked. The question was simply "how many songs have been the subjects of books?", and "We Shall Overcome" is one of the answers.
OTOH that list of books about things that have "changed the world" could probably be expanded tenfold. And the books that are subtitled "The year that changed the world" is practically a list unto itself. There's probably at least one entry for every century going back to ancient Greece.
the chant "I'm Going to move that toe" here
The point isn't its musical significance, and certainly not its significance to those who never experienced it in real time, it's the courage it reinforced among many millions of people who by their actions were (yes, Gonfalon) changing the world in far more tangible ways than any Beatles song ever did, great as the Beatles were.**
And Morty, do you really do think your inane comparisons with every TV sitcom you can think of have anything to do with anything beyond trying to demonstrate your own cleverness? You seem to think you're Christopher Hitchens bravely puncturing the pretensions of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, whereas in reality you're coming across as little more than a variant of a right wing radio shock jock. This has not been your finest hour.
**Though I do admit that the Beatles sold a lot more jeans, soft drinks and computers than any mere "political" song ever could. Score one for that.
It's not surprising that the concept of a song reinforcing an atomized** movement's courage in its worst moments of crisis is something beyond your limited comprehension. You couldn't find a single person who was engaged in that movement during that period who would subscribe to your pathetically narrow perspective.
**The times when that song worked its greatest wonders was not during the national marches that were safely guarded, but rather in isolated jail cells and churches throughout the South, surrounded by immanent threats of violence and even death. But this is like trying to explain Rembrandt to a blind man.
Stick around. This is nothing. I'm sure it'll get around to Star Wars and the Franco-Prussian war before it dies a merciful death.
You seem to think you're Christopher Hitchens bravely puncturing the pretensions of the Roman Catholic hierarchy,
??? You're confusing your threads, I think.
EDIT: Irregardless, though, just between you and I, what did I say about the Catholic hierarchy that made you come out of left with that? My comments on the other thread were even-handed and judicious, I think, as I believe they are here.
Oh, I've been around long enough to see the swerves this place can take, but there's usually rhyme or reason to it. This was particularly unpredictable for me.
I tried to get us onto Great Lost Albums here but nothin' doing, apparently.
That's probably the difference. I don't think I was alive when Elvis Costello was played on the radio. I should say, I quite like the Costello that I do know...just a cultural blind spot I haven't found the time to look at yet.
It's a pretty brutal commentary on how mass media tries to stifle artistic creativity, specifically AOR versus the punk/new wave movement of the day.
I was tuning in the shine on the light night dial
Doing anything my radio advised
With every one of those late night stations
Playing songs, bringing tears to me eyes
I was seriously thinking about hiding the receiver
When the switch broke 'cause it's old
They're saying things that I can hardly believe
They really think we're getting out of control
Radio is a sound salvation
Radio is cleaning up the nation
They say you better listen to the voice of reason
But they don't give you any choice
'Cause they think that it's treason
So you had better do as you are told
You better listen to the radio
I wanna bite the hand that feeds me
I wanna bite that hand so badly
I wanna make them wish they'd never seen me
Some of my friends sit around every evening
And they worry about the times ahead
But everybody else is overwhelmed by indifference
And the promise of an early bed
You either shut up or get cut out
They don't wanna hear about it
It's only inches on the reel-to-reel
And the radio is in the hands of such a lot of fools
Tryin' to anaesthetise the way that you feel
Radio is a sound salvation
Radio is cleaning up the nation
They say you better listen to the voice of reason
But they don't give you any choice
'Cause they think that it's treason
So you had better do as you are told
You better listen to the radio
"You either shut up or get cut-out" is a particularly wonderfully snarky line, for those who remember cut-outs.
I am 51. Elvis was nothing short of a phenomena for my time starting in late '77 or so. It was like having Hank Williams and Cole Porter all rolled into one, and it lasted. Those first seven albums are as stunning a sustained debut as any I experienced firsthand. There has never been another time for me where I would literally go to the record store the day the record came out. Just amazing pop music.
He is to Joan Baez (*) what Sandy Koufax is to the guy in the VW Passat commercial.
(*) Yes, even when she's gurgling We Shall Overcome.
London is full of Arabas
We could be in Palestine
Overrun by a Chinese line
With the boys from the Mersey and the Thames and the Tyne
But there's no danger
It's a professional career
Though it could be arranged
With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
If you're out of luck you're out of work
We could send you to Johannesburg
The history of sports and everywhere else is littered with people who do great things that easily could have been someone else, but they were not. On some level you have to acknowledge that people really did sing OWS and it was important to a movement, even if in an alternate reality some other song could have filled that role.
And on some level you have to acknowledge that the seminal version of it -- Joan Baez's -- is unspeakably dated and dreadful. If I'd have been at the MOW, her arrival on stage would have influenced me to retire to the facilities, or better yet, to go grab a half smoke and a 40.
Several people have commented that if "We Shall Overcome" had never existed, then some other song would have been adopted to fulfill all of its functions. Beyond the historical ignorance that lies behind that thought, there's also the fact that if you're going to hold it against a song that it didn't "change the world" all by itself (which of course it didn't, and nobody has ever claimed that), then what are you going to say about any song?
Did "I Want to Hold Your Hand" change the world? Did "Heartbreak Hotel"? Did "Maybelline"? Did "Like a Rolling Stone"? Don't be ridiculous. If you were going to say that rock 'n' roll as a genre "changed the world", you'd be onto something. But to make that claim that for any particular song is complete BS. How long does any pop song stay #1 on the charts? What's the record for that? Sixteen weeks. And then what? By that standard, "We Shall Overcome" was the #1 hit of the civil rights movement---and was adopted by parallel movements worldwide from Ireland to Africa---from the time it was first introduced in its final form to the time those movements had run their course, with a transformed world as their legacy.
This is why the distinction exists between "musically" influential and "politically" influential, meaning "political" in the broadest sense of the word, as opposed to the "merely political". "We Shall Overcome" was scarcely innovative in any musical sense, having emerged from the gospel tradition, as did virtually all the songs in the freedom movement. But nobody has claimed that it was. And to try to refute a claim that's not being made is just wasting your energy fighting a straw horse.
Who in the #### has ever claimed that there was any "seminal version" of "We Shall Overcome"? Joan Baez herself probably sang it several thousand times, sometimes better than others, but until now I've never heard anyone claim that any of those renditions were "seminal" or "definitive". If you want to try to pick out a "seminal" version of that song, you would have to have had tape recorders set up in hundreds of Southern jails and thousands of Southern churches, where largely anonymous individuals and groups sang it in defiance of jailers and surrounding mobs. To trivialize it by citing a commercial version, no matter what your opinion of the one you heard might be, only goes to show just how little you know what you're talking about. Which is totally in character with everything you've written in this thread.
This is why the distinction exists between "musically" influential and "politically" influential, meaning "political" in the broadest sense of the word, as opposed to the "merely political". "We Shall Overcome" was scarcely innovative in any musical sense, having emerged from the gospel tradition, as did virtually all the songs in the freedom movement. But nobody has claimed that it was. And to try to refute a claim that's not being made is just wasting your energy fighting a straw horse.
The claim that you made was that it was easily the generation's most influential song. There's no sense in which that's true. Accepting your claim that it influenced some people to overcome hardships while unjustly jailed (*), that group is a subset of a niche of the entire generation. If, as is reasonably suspected (**), your focus is the stirring of the political consciousness of the black members of the generation, the challenge is to explain how WSO was more "influential" than something like Coltrane's A Love Supreme, a masterpiece that still sounds fresh and brilliant in March 2013 (or any other candidates people can come up with).
Don't just rely on your aggrandizement of your life and times at the expense of everything that came before and after -- endemic to your generation, by the way. Show your work, Baby Boom.
(*) And, honestly, if the choice was my iPod in jail, or freedom and reel after reel of Joan Baez's WSO, I'd probably take jail.
(**) Based on, e.g., your blithe dismissal of the Beatles' appeal to "frat boys" and your plaintive quest to learn about "whose aesthetics" we were discussing.
How wouldn't it be the seminal version? She sang it at the MOW; hers was the version behind which history unfolded.
Still, that's pretty interesting, at least to me.
Naked Raygun had a song about Asimov's Foundation.
(*) And, honestly, if the choice was my iPod in jail, or freedom and reel after reel of Joan Baez's WSO, I'd probably take jail.
If only we could give you that choice.
Who in the #### has ever claimed that there was any "seminal version" of "We Shall Overcome"?
How wouldn't it be the seminal version? She sang it at the MOW; hers was the version behind which history unfolded.
Since your knowledge of the civil rights movement apparently begins and ends with one event in 1963, I guess I can understand your confusion.
How many are there? I'm admittedly punk-centric; off the top of my head, I can think of the Subway Sect LP that never came out in '77, the Motorcyle Boy's (ex-Shop Assistants singer, not the U.S. act of the same name) Scarlet from '89 or so & what would've been Fur's second LP in the late '90s.
No doubt I'm forgetting quite a few, though.
Edit: Oh, & what would've been the Units' 2nd & 3rd, I believe both with Bill Nelson producing. Those guys must've been snakebit as hell.
You love quotes, Morty, and this one applies in spades to you and SBB:
"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not" - Jeremiah 5:21
"Before disco this country really was a dancing wasteland. You know the Woodstock generation of the 1960s, that were so full of themselves and conceited? None of those people could dance."
--Charlotte (Kate Beckinsale), The Last Days of Disco (1998)
Bart: You make me sick, Homer. You're the one that told me I could do anything if I just put my mind to it.
Homer: Well now that you're a little bit older I can tell you that's a crock. No matter how good you are at something, there's always about a million people better than you.
Bart: Gotcha. Can't win, don't try.
SBB quoting Whit Stillman only strengthens my theory that SBB and Armond White are the same people.
Even though I like Morty in spite of everything I've written here, I'm not always sure that he doesn't live a parallel life as Mr. Burns. Not that there's anything wrong with that, since the man certainly does have style.
Holy crap, that's... a little scary.
She'd have been better off going with Dancing Queen. (Never mind the Swedish, the good parts are in English (and the nonverbal cues are universal)).
I have heard some random songs thrown out, but not any put forth as the stake in the ground, X is the most influential song.
Musically I would guess an early Rock & Roll song, first British Invasion Song, or maybe a classic staple like Satisfaction or Like a Rolling Stone, but I give Andy credit for having an opinion and going outside the box a bit.
And We Need to Talk About Kevin is painful to watch.
** Strictly speaking, Bill Haley may have come along before Elvis on the charts, but no middle aged rocker with a bad toupee was ever going to be more imitated and influential than the 21 year old Elvis Presley.
Tough to measure, because it's so intangible and private. If you take an "art for art's sake" perspective, and a point of view that greatness begets greatness, thereby deeming it noble to attempt to read the best things written, view the best paintings painted, and listen to the best songs composed, the answer boils down to whichever song was the best.
The answer to that question, whatever the answer is, is not We Shall Overcome.
EDIT: If you could do a non-classical album, rather than a song, and defined the era as 1962-67, the top contenders would probably have to include Rubber Soul, Revolver, The Velvet Undergrond and Nico, and A Love Supreme. I'd probably rank those 1. Velvets; 2. Love Supreme; 3. Revolver; 4. Rubber Soul. If you extend the era endpoint further, you start getting into the beginning of the Stones' peak, which muddies things considerably.
Okay, then, if it's art for art's sake, let's just say the Hallelujah chorus and skip all the silliness about Elvis Presley or the Beatles.
The frequently rewritten and updated "John Brown's Body" was centrally used to inspire the abolitionist movement, and also Northern Civil War soldiers, and also the suffrage movement, and also the workers/union movement... and eventually, students whose teacher hit them with a ruler. Ranking the nominees solely on sociopolitical impact still strikes me as a faulty premise. But for those who want to do that, I think Mr. Brown has got to be the clubhouse leader as far as breadth and "having legs" is concerned.
But Pet Sounds didn't sell that well by BB standards. Didn't Beach Boys Party sell better than Pet Sounds? Now Good Vibrations sold, but Barbara Ann also sold, as did Sloop John B. I'm not sure Good Vibrations was going to wow people by being on Smile because it had been out for months by the time the album would have been released. The Beatles didn't put Strawberry Fields or Penny Lane on Pepper. Heroes And Villains was similar in scope to Good Vibrations, but it wasn't good enough as a centerpiece. Didn't measure up to A Day In The Life.
It was a moment in time, and Wilson was right in that once it took too long, the audience moved on to other things. The Beach Boys deserve respect, but the whole Brian Wilson as genius bit is overblown.
Not a bad bunch.
I was too young at the time to get the subtleties of Pet Sounds, then some years later, not knowing the pedigree, it seemed not especially impressive in light of what The Beatls and other groups had done in the studio.
WTF is going on here?
The Beatles tolled the death knell of dancing--thank God. The group itself didn't do it--much of their early stuff is highly danceable to--but it's what followed, what they dragged into the '60s proper with them.
I think I brought it up here recently before, but I really, really like that movie!
(Though Charlotte is pretty clearly severely mentally unhinged, I don't know if I trust her assessment of cultural history.)
Excellent. Once again, the wheel has turned and Dame Fortune has hugged Mordecai Causa into her sweet perfumed bosom. Somebody up there likes me.
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