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Yep. This is an amazing smear job on Hamilton, definitely reminiscent of some of the Boston front office "leaks" -- except Ryan is just rolling in there guns blazing making no bones about it. I guess that's Texas Style for you.
Really, though, what the hell? If you don't want to resign him, then just wish him well and get on with running your club. You made a fair few dollars off of him and a couple of pennants. Sheesh.
Did Hamilton say that he was quitting to improve his health? All the quotes I found from him look like this one:
It seems to me that he's claiming Jesus told him to stop.
It kind of doesn't matter, right? God didn't tell him to start doing something unhealthy, which then hurt his game. It's objectively a good decision for his well-being, and this is a pretty disgusting thing for Ryan to say.
Lucchino is reading this thinking, "so we can just say these things outright? I don't need to keep meeting Shaughnessy in the stall at the Cask n Flagon?"
Jeebus, amen...
I'm the furthest thing from churchy mcchurch, but I'm now firmly rooting for Josh's god to start hurling lightning bolts towards Arlington.
Enough is enough already...
I mean if he was handling snakes, and one bit him, sure. I'm right there with Ryan.
I'll take him at his word when he says that it's because God told him to quit. I'll fully grant that people tend to hear from God things that they already have in their mind and desire to do for non-religious reasons (funny how that works). I don't see him analyzing anything objectively though, it's just this silly sort of, "this makes God mad, I have to stop!" thing.
If quitting really did mess up Hamilton's hitting (which I doubt it did), I think it's worthwhile to criticize him. He stopped performing at his job for personal reasons. The marginal gain for quitting a few months earlier is pretty low, and if I were an organization shelling out millions of dollars for someone to perform, I wouldn't be real keen on them suddenly deciding they had to quit right that moment. Disagreeing with that is fine, but I don't see how it's disgusting. People do things in sports that are surely more detrimental to their health than continuing to chew for a couple extra months, and absolutely do get called out for not doing them.
edit - I'm incredibly biased against Hamilton though, so I could be off base because of that. I just plain don't like the guy.
Yes, as Ryan says, you would have liked Hamilton to take a "different approach."
And how do you account for the fact that MLB as an institution strongly discourages players from using smokeless tobacco, to the point of banning it on the field, in the dugout, and at team events?
Should the Rangers' desires in this matter trump MLB's?
Should the Rangers' desires in this matter trump MLB's?
Is MLB paying his salary?
It's just an undisciplined and weird thing for Hamilton to do. It's not just that he quit (which isn't inherently objectionable); it's that he quit for odd, if not outright spurious, reasons.(*) I don't want that around if I can help it.
Hamilton's way too high-maintenance for my tastes and I've already got great production from him in his prime, for a decent price. Someone else can pay him big dollars as he gets older and odder and his prime fades into the mists of nostalgia.
(*) It's analogous to a guy converting to Islam on August 1, and proceeding to fast and otherwise completely alter his diet. Continuing thinking out loud, you don't even need the Islam part; it's like a guy becoming a vegan on August 1 and proceeding to suck down the stretch. I'd say it's worse than the vegan example.
I want to add that it is curious that one of the strongest anti-PED advocates around here is saying that a player should have continued to use a dangerous drug to help his team. That seems inconsistent but I'm willing to be convinced that it's not.
I was going to write the same thing. MLB policy is to urge players to quit using smokeless tobacco. Among other reasons, MLB wants its players to set an example that discourages young people from taking up the habit. Regardless of Hamilton's reasons for quitting, I don't see how the team's management can criticize him for doing something that is consistent with MLB policy.
It's incredibly inconsistent. Also, the notion that quitting a dangerous and addictive drug is "undisciplined and weird", at any time, is insane.
Very apt.
RIP Alex.
Well, exactly. I mean, one might as well complain that Mike Napoli switched brands of breakfast cereal in the off-season, or that Derek Holland picked the wrong month to get his bathroom remodeled. Quite aside from the utter niaiserie of criticizing a guy for trying to get healthier (on God's advice or Oprah's, who cares?), the idea that you can correlate a player's and a team's success to some factor like that is bizarre. If you could point to the Fourth of July as the day when he quit the chaw, and show that he was hitting .360 before that and .120 for the rest of the season, then, just barely, perhaps, maybe there's a gripe about his performance. But the fact is he just had a subpar September and a very weak June and July. Such things have been known to happen in baseball history.
Silly me.
+10000000000000.
This,for the love of God, (yes pun intended) YES!
It's possible, even likely that Hamilton WAS affected by quitting yet another addiction. I smoked for 25 years. Tobacco is incredibly addicting, and I can see how a "finely tuned athlete" can easily be thrown off his game while going through withdrawal. Or even if it wasn't physical beyond the first couple of weeks, the mental aspect of it is incredibly difficult . (been tobacco free 10 years now and only stopped cravings about a year ago !!!!)
The guy quit tobacco. And Nolan Ryan is being a total ######### in criticizing any aspect of that effort.
And that's why it was counterproductive to quit on a whim, midseason.
Would it be more acceptable to you if he had done it solely for health reasons and did not invoke God or Jesus?
Of course.
What if he was on steroids and wanted to quit? Would you be against that if it depressed his performance?
Didn't catch the bands' name but they rocked the tent.
EDIT: And yeah, Ryan comes across as an a-hole here.
Just a little wad in your jaw
There'll be no more aaaaaaaah!
But you may feel a little sick
Can you stand up?
I do believe it's working
Good
That'll keep you going through the show
Come on it's time to go
Counterproductive to whom ?
It's one less damaging thing going into Hamilton's body. Thats a good thing. Or is EVERYTHING sbjugated to what happens on the field ?
Next time I hear someone say in a time of crisis, "This really puts everything in perspective, and lets you know baseball is just a game", I'll be sure t link this thread.
The team paying his salary.
If Hamilton knew (or even suspected) that quitting midseason would screw with his game, I can understand this perspective. Frankly, I don't know that's a reasonable assumption.
I quit smokeless last year after dipping for 20+ years. I found that this time (compared to previous stops and starts), it was remarkably easy. I'm positive it didn't affect my productivity level at work remained unchanged, at its consistent low level.
It's also possible that Hamilton determined that quitting while he was working, and therefore busy, was a hell of a lot easier than when he had six months of doing nothing. In fact, it's possible he's tried to quit in the offseason and found it too difficult because of the downtime.
Fair enough.
Cool.
Also, I wonder, couldn't he have just gone on the patch or chewed nicotine gum so as not to feel ill?
And is it really that hard to quit dip? When I quit Camels 20-odd years ago, I only recall a bit of pencil chewing & nail biting. I know dip has much more nicotine per dose, but really THAT much? Serious question...
If quitting tobacco makes you healthier I think you can argue fairly easily that Hamilton thought by quitting in-season he was actually going to HELP not hurt the Rangers.
Terry Francona had significant problems with it during his tenure in Boston. There were a couple of years where he would "quit" prior to the season and within about a week of Opening Day he was back at it. I think he eventually did quit but I remember him having some issues.
Sure, but that's not all that people are objecting to.
Yes and no. I probably tried a dozen times over the years, sometimes going as long as two weeks without but eventually giving in and restarting the habit. The last time, perhaps because I sensed a certain now or never aspect to the attempt that was absent previously, it was easy. I've found overcoming the physical craving was always much easier than the mental aspect.
I might be wrong about this, but aren't players' paychecks issued by MLB, rather than the individual clubs?
I'm a personal choice zealot.
Are you saying that he should continue a dangerous addiction until November on the chance that it MIGHT affect his performanace on the field ? Think about what you are saying man. Come on.
So if Hamilton were an alcoholic who went dry with the help of AA, you'd be against that, too?
Are you involved in the Rangers?
Also, Hamilton's pretty much in his prime now or damn near close to it. If "you" want to play only prospects or inferior players who happen to be 26 rather than a better player who is 31 (which is not old in baseball terms, contrary to pervading thinking at bbtf), your teams generally will not be very good.
Yes. It really is that essential to stop using tobacco as soon as possible. Tobacco products are terrible for you. Suggesting that somebody should continue to intentionally cause long-term potentially fatal harm to their body so they can hit a baseball well is ####### ridiculous.
Yes. It really is that essential to stop using tobacco as soon as possible. Tobacco products are terrible for you. Suggesting that somebody should continue to intentionally cause long-term potentially fatal harm to their body so they can hit a baseball well is ####### ridiculous.
The hysteria about dip has reached Reefer Madness levels of hysteria. Won't someone think of the children?
I didn't say I opposed it, I said it's annoying. It is. Hamilton's Jesus drama is self-absorbed and annoying to many others. A poster yesterday (I don't recall who) said that if JH can't handle being in a clubhouse with champagne, he needs a lot more non-religious help.
Can't one be pleased that a person is working hard to battle a problem and also annoyed by billboard religiousity?
So what if it's preachy and annoying. I can't stand some of the stories written about Hamilton (ooh look his teammates use ginger ale to celebrate with!), but damn, who cares what his reason for stopping is.
How do you know he didn't use the patch or chew gum? Those don't always work.
So it wasn't very hard for you, so what? Are you an addict? Have you almost destroyed your life with heroin? Nicotine is at least as addictive as any hardcore drug out there (chemically speaking - as alluded to in the previous sentences it's obviously different for everyone).
No, it really hasn't. Reefer Madness portrays people going insane and killing other people after smoking weed, suggesting dip causes oral cancer is not even close to the same thing. Do you honestly think dip is not harmful?
I was just asking a question. I have no experience quitting dip. I do have quitting squares. It was just a question.
Dip doesn't "cause" oral cancer; it increases the odds of incurring oral cancer, which remain very small even for dippers. Dip is not so "harmful" as to cause a clear and present danger necessitating immediate action or anything remotely close. That suggestion is hysterical.
If I were a teammate of long standing, my empathy and sympathy would be at a pretty low ebb right now. Worse still, I'd have to work for Nolan Ryan. I'd rather play in Seattle.
How does converting to Islam make you healthier? That analogy really does not work. If Hamilton decided to become a vegan and starved himself then yes, he should be criticized, and so should the team trainers and doctors for not paying attention to him. But why would becoming a vegan lower ones athletic performance? Tony Gonzalez touts his mostly vegan diet for remaining in the NFL for so long (as the best TE ever, so he's doing ok).
Which line ? I can even see where MY line of argument can be seen as crazy. ;)
My point was that the religious stuff is probably at least part of what's helping him let go of the substances. He's transferring his compulsive behaviors to more benign targets, including the "opiate of the masses". Even if you aren't religious and don't care for overt displays of religious belief, I'd think you'd still be willing to grit your teeth and cut Hamilton some slack, under the circumstances.
Oh come on now, you give us too much credit!
*) It's a biblical concept! Pretty Old Testamentey though.
The one in which 2 (I think it's just 2) people are claiming that Josh Hamilton owes it to his employer to maintain a terribly unhealthy habit until it fits with their schedule, based on the insane idea that it will help him hit baseballs better.
Shooty, your crazy ideas are tied exclusively to Spurs discussions (I kid).
Ha! So have Others
Eat #### Nolan Ryan, you hypocrite.
Some more for those still feeling cavalier with someone elses health so their fantasy team can move from 3rd to 2nd....
By that standard, radiation doesn't "cause" cancer, either, but that doesn't mean I'd willingly expose myself to a "hot" environment for a few months just to make my boss happy.
It really is surreal. I just can't fathom insisting someone continue to use tobacco for the good of the employer.
And then I remembered I was arguing with SBB and have decided to move on.
"insane idea"? Using dip is what he's used to. It's part of his routine. He probably perceives it as keepin him calm and focused. You don't think that experiencing withdrawal symptoms, combined with the usual fidgeting and uncertainty that comes with forcing oneself to quit a habit, MIGHT make him hit baseballs worse?
Wait, you're not new here.
I gotta say, from my vantage point, the overt displays of religiosity are matched pretty well by the overt hostility towards it, on the obnoxiousness scale.
Except no one ever said he "owed" it to his employer, only that his employer is in the right for being disappointed in his inability to manage his life better, in that inability denigrating his work performance, and for those things impacting its willingness to continue the relationship.
This incessant idea around here that a player can just do whatever he wants whenever he wants and be immune from all criticism and sanction from his employer, be it manager or front office, is pure fanboy.
Addict with a generally positive recovery story continually invokes his Lord and Savior to get attention. Josh, we're proud of you, homey. But there's a lot of guys in the major leagues today with pretty intense religious beliefs who are able to mostly keep it to themselves.
That's your interpretation. I have no idea what goes through Josh Hamilton's head, so I don't ascribe motivations to his actions. That's DiPerna territory.
Exactly. Nolan Ryan would have no complaints if Hamilton had suddenly decided to quit tobacco on November 9.
I seem to recall that BBTF is anti-truck washing when it comes to player behavior... Also, the extremes in the sentence of yours I've quoted give me a good chuckle. SOYLENT GREEN! YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! DON'T GET COCKY! BUZZ LIGHTYEAR TO THE RESCUE!
So at the time they traded for him, they were unaware that he was using chewing tobacco, or that he might want to quit in the future? If so, isn't that the fault of their scouts rather than Hamilton?
This implication that doing something that will positively affect his ACTUAL HEALTH and life, but may adversely affect his baseball performance, represents an "inability to manage his life better" is disgusting.
Since AA isn't very effective and is thoroughly God-soaked, I wouldn't be real big on it. I'd wish him the best, but I don't think it's the best way to go about one's business.
This implication that doing something that will positively affect his ACTUAL HEALTH and life, but may adversely affect his baseball performance, represents an "inability to manage his life better" is disgusting.
Joe? Joe Buck?
These players are paid a ton of money to perform on the baseball field. If you make odd decisions for strange reasons that make you not perform on the baseball field, you're not going to make your employer happy. I don't know how anyone could be confused about these facts of life, but facts of life they are.
The Texas Rangers aren't paying Josh Hamilton to reduce his odds of getting oral cancer from tiny to less tiny. Simple as that.
This is only true if one believes message board posts to be equivalent to pro athletes feeling the need to constantly inform people of their religious beliefs. I don't think I've ever seen an atheist athlete make a big deal of having a problem with religion.
Also that article answers one question I had -- he's been chewing tobacco since he was 20 (he's now 31).
In what way is the decision to quit voluntarily subjecting yourself to a known carcinogen odd?
And sure, I guess he clearly didn't make his employer happy, but Hamilton's OWN DAMN LIFE is more important than his employer's happiness. Yes, he's paid a lot of money, but the fact of the matter is that his own health is still more important, or rather, should be more important, than his baseball performance.
I still can't grasp this baffling inconsistency with PED use. PED use is unhealthy but is supposed to increase baseball performance, but anybody that tries to improve performance through drug use is a bad person, but the same goes for anybody that tries to improve their health by stopping drug use...
Such as if you refuse to try steroids, even though they might make you stronger.
Changing a routine, in a sport known for routine, and subjecting oneself to withdrawl symptoms in the middle of the season on the basis that you think you're making God angry (his words indicate that's his reasoning, I'm not making things up) is pretty damned odd to me. Perhaps you disagree, but surely you can see why some would think this to be odd behavior?
I agree with this. It's exactly why I was never all that bent out of shape about PED use. Using PEDs is an entirely understandable, and perhaps even rational decision, during the '90s.
Not to his employer, it isn't. What's important to his employer is Josh Hamilton producing on the baseball field.
I don't see why the forum, or the speaker, makes much of a difference, on how obnoxious a comment is. That has always struck me as a weak cover.
That doesn't mean that the religious reasons don't circle back onto health reasons. Christian disapproval of tobacco (and other recreational drugs) comes from 1 Corintians 6: 19-20. "What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."
Sounds like the Bible's saying that it's your Christian duty to stay in good shape, doesn't it? So isn't that at the heart a health-based reason, even if it's presented within religious terminology?
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