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Thursday, October 11, 2012

Ryan: Hamilton kicked habit at wrong time

“His timing on quitting smokeless tobacco couldn’t have been worse,” Ryan said Tuesday on 103.3 KESN-FM in Dallas. “You would’ve liked to have thought that if he was going to do that that he would’ve done it in the offseason, or waited until this offseason to do it. So the drastic affect that it had on him and the year that he was having up to that point in time when he did quit, you’d have liked him to have taken a different approach to that.”

“So those issues caused unrest, and it’s unfortunate that that happened and the timing was such as it was,” Ryan said.

Greasing those skids a little more.

 

shoewizard Posted: October 11, 2012 at 03:18 AM | 160 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: rangers

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   1. Jim Wisinski Posted: October 11, 2012 at 05:28 AM (#4263198)
Red Sox south?
   2. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: October 11, 2012 at 05:45 AM (#4263204)
Red Sox south?


Yep. This is an amazing smear job on Hamilton, definitely reminiscent of some of the Boston front office "leaks" -- except Ryan is just rolling in there guns blazing making no bones about it. I guess that's Texas Style for you.
   3. Belfry Bob Posted: October 11, 2012 at 07:43 AM (#4263217)
"Guess I picked the wrong day to stop sniffin' glue..."
   4. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: October 11, 2012 at 07:43 AM (#4263218)
Me very confused. Me no understand why Rangers no like 43 home run guy play CF even if he preachy and have too many tattoo.

Really, though, what the hell? If you don't want to resign him, then just wish him well and get on with running your club. You made a fair few dollars off of him and a couple of pennants. Sheesh.
   5. Bug Selig Posted: October 11, 2012 at 08:02 AM (#4263225)
A team that runs off Josh Hamilton and shows never-ending loyalty to Michael Young deserves nothing less than a decade of Astro-ness.
   6. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 08:13 AM (#4263229)
Maybe Hamilton thought that he'd be an even better player without the tobacco. I mean, it obviously didn't work out that way, but still...
   7. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 08:15 AM (#4263230)
Also, how petty does it make the Rangers sound to complain about one of their employees making a major life change in the interest of improved health? Sure, mouth cancer sucks, but what really matters is your OPS, kid, and don't forget it!
   8. Spectral Posted: October 11, 2012 at 08:19 AM (#4263233)
Also, how petty does it make the Rangers sound to complain about one of their employees making a major life change in the interest of improved health?


Did Hamilton say that he was quitting to improve his health? All the quotes I found from him look like this one:

"There's disobedience and there's obedience to God. I've been being disobedient," Hamilton said a few days ago in an interview with the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. "It may be a small thing to you, but it's a big thing to Him. There's consequences."


It seems to me that he's claiming Jesus told him to stop.
   9. villageidiom Posted: October 11, 2012 at 08:27 AM (#4263235)
Me very confused. Me no understand why Rangers no like 43 home run guy play CF even if he preachy and have too many tattoo.
Shooty just pawn in game of life.
   10. JJ1986 Posted: October 11, 2012 at 08:34 AM (#4263239)
Is this the big secret he was alluding to earlier this year?
   11. jmurph Posted: October 11, 2012 at 08:40 AM (#4263247)
Did Hamilton say that he was quitting to improve his health?


It kind of doesn't matter, right? God didn't tell him to start doing something unhealthy, which then hurt his game. It's objectively a good decision for his well-being, and this is a pretty disgusting thing for Ryan to say.
   12. jmurph Posted: October 11, 2012 at 08:42 AM (#4263250)
Yep. This is an amazing smear job on Hamilton, definitely reminiscent of some of the Boston front office "leaks" -- except Ryan is just rolling in there guns blazing making no bones about it. I guess that's Texas Style for you.


Lucchino is reading this thinking, "so we can just say these things outright? I don't need to keep meeting Shaughnessy in the stall at the Cask n Flagon?"
   13. zonk Posted: October 11, 2012 at 08:44 AM (#4263251)
It kind of doesn't matter, right? God didn't tell him to start doing something unhealthy, which then hurt his game. It's objectively a good decision for his well-being, and this is a pretty disgusting thing for Ryan to say.


Jeebus, amen...

I'm the furthest thing from churchy mcchurch, but I'm now firmly rooting for Josh's god to start hurling lightning bolts towards Arlington.

Enough is enough already...
   14. Spivey Posted: October 11, 2012 at 08:53 AM (#4263255)
Nolan Ryan is being stupid right now. The fans are already on the side of the Rangers, going this far or further is just petty.
   15. jmurph Posted: October 11, 2012 at 08:54 AM (#4263257)
I'm the furthest thing from churchy mcchurch, but I'm now firmly rooting for Josh's god to start hurling lightning bolts towards Arlington.


I mean if he was handling snakes, and one bit him, sure. I'm right there with Ryan.
   16. Spectral Posted: October 11, 2012 at 08:57 AM (#4263260)
It kind of doesn't matter, right? God didn't tell him to start doing something unhealthy, which then hurt his game. It's objectively a good decision for his well-being, and this is a pretty disgusting thing for Ryan to say.


I'll take him at his word when he says that it's because God told him to quit. I'll fully grant that people tend to hear from God things that they already have in their mind and desire to do for non-religious reasons (funny how that works). I don't see him analyzing anything objectively though, it's just this silly sort of, "this makes God mad, I have to stop!" thing.

If quitting really did mess up Hamilton's hitting (which I doubt it did), I think it's worthwhile to criticize him. He stopped performing at his job for personal reasons. The marginal gain for quitting a few months earlier is pretty low, and if I were an organization shelling out millions of dollars for someone to perform, I wouldn't be real keen on them suddenly deciding they had to quit right that moment. Disagreeing with that is fine, but I don't see how it's disgusting. People do things in sports that are surely more detrimental to their health than continuing to chew for a couple extra months, and absolutely do get called out for not doing them.

edit - I'm incredibly biased against Hamilton though, so I could be off base because of that. I just plain don't like the guy.
   17. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 11, 2012 at 08:58 AM (#4263261)
I'm with Ryan on this one. You're not employing and hiring Josh Hamilton the person, you're employing and hiring Josh Hamilton the player. He made a lifestyle change mid-season that hurt his production and hurt the team. That's on him.

Yes, as Ryan says, you would have liked Hamilton to take a "different approach."
   18. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 09:12 AM (#4263275)
I'm with Ryan on this one. You're not employing and hiring Josh Hamilton the person, you're employing and hiring Josh Hamilton the player. He made a lifestyle change mid-season that hurt his production and hurt the team. That's on him.

Yes, as Ryan says, you would have liked Hamilton to take a "different approach."


And how do you account for the fact that MLB as an institution strongly discourages players from using smokeless tobacco, to the point of banning it on the field, in the dugout, and at team events?

Should the Rangers' desires in this matter trump MLB's?
   19. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 11, 2012 at 09:20 AM (#4263280)
And how do you account for the fact that MLB as an institution strongly discourages players from using smokeless tobacco, to the point of banning it on the field, in the dugout, and at team events?

Should the Rangers' desires in this matter trump MLB's?


Is MLB paying his salary?

It's just an undisciplined and weird thing for Hamilton to do. It's not just that he quit (which isn't inherently objectionable); it's that he quit for odd, if not outright spurious, reasons.(*) I don't want that around if I can help it.

Hamilton's way too high-maintenance for my tastes and I've already got great production from him in his prime, for a decent price. Someone else can pay him big dollars as he gets older and odder and his prime fades into the mists of nostalgia.

(*) It's analogous to a guy converting to Islam on August 1, and proceeding to fast and otherwise completely alter his diet. Continuing thinking out loud, you don't even need the Islam part; it's like a guy becoming a vegan on August 1 and proceeding to suck down the stretch. I'd say it's worse than the vegan example.
   20. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 11, 2012 at 09:23 AM (#4263282)
I was looking at Hamilton's season splits. Just out of curiosity did he stop doing tobacco in early June then start again in August?
   21. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 11, 2012 at 09:25 AM (#4263284)
It's just an undisciplined and weird thing for Hamilton to do. It's not just that he quit (which isn't inherently objectionable); it's that he quit for odd, if not outright spurious, reasons.(*) I don't want that around if I can help it.


I want to add that it is curious that one of the strongest anti-PED advocates around here is saying that a player should have continued to use a dangerous drug to help his team. That seems inconsistent but I'm willing to be convinced that it's not.
   22. Tricky Dick Posted: October 11, 2012 at 09:27 AM (#4263286)
And how do you account for the fact that MLB as an institution strongly discourages players from using smokeless tobacco, to the point of banning it on the field, in the dugout, and at team events?

Should the Rangers' desires in this matter trump MLB's?


I was going to write the same thing. MLB policy is to urge players to quit using smokeless tobacco. Among other reasons, MLB wants its players to set an example that discourages young people from taking up the habit. Regardless of Hamilton's reasons for quitting, I don't see how the team's management can criticize him for doing something that is consistent with MLB policy.
   23. HGM Posted: October 11, 2012 at 09:29 AM (#4263290)
I want to add that it is curious that one of the strongest anti-PED advocates around here is saying that a player should have continued to use a dangerous drug to help his team. That seems inconsistent but I'm willing to be convinced that it's not.

It's incredibly inconsistent. Also, the notion that quitting a dangerous and addictive drug is "undisciplined and weird", at any time, is insane.
   24. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: October 11, 2012 at 09:33 AM (#4263295)
Shooty just pawn in game of life.


Very apt.

RIP Alex.
   25. BDC Posted: October 11, 2012 at 09:48 AM (#4263319)
I was looking at Hamilton's season splits. Just out of curiosity did he stop doing tobacco in early June then start again in August?

Well, exactly. I mean, one might as well complain that Mike Napoli switched brands of breakfast cereal in the off-season, or that Derek Holland picked the wrong month to get his bathroom remodeled. Quite aside from the utter niaiserie of criticizing a guy for trying to get healthier (on God's advice or Oprah's, who cares?), the idea that you can correlate a player's and a team's success to some factor like that is bizarre. If you could point to the Fourth of July as the day when he quit the chaw, and show that he was hitting .360 before that and .120 for the rest of the season, then, just barely, perhaps, maybe there's a gripe about his performance. But the fact is he just had a subpar September and a very weak June and July. Such things have been known to happen in baseball history.
   26. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:02 AM (#4263345)
I have to admit - I had to click the link, because the intro makes this sound like an article from The Onion. I mean, really - damning the guy for quitting a horrible habit that adversely affects his health? Here, I always thought pro athletes wanted to be in the best physical shape.

Silly me.
I want to add that it is curious that one of the strongest anti-PED advocates around here is saying that a player should have continued to use a dangerous drug to help his team. That seems inconsistent but I'm willing to be convinced that it's not.

It's incredibly inconsistent. Also, the notion that quitting a dangerous and addictive drug is "undisciplined and weird", at any time, is insane.
+10000000000000.
   27. shoewizard Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:05 AM (#4263351)
the notion that quitting a dangerous and addictive drug is "undisciplined and weird", at any time, is insane.


This,for the love of God, (yes pun intended) YES!

It's possible, even likely that Hamilton WAS affected by quitting yet another addiction. I smoked for 25 years. Tobacco is incredibly addicting, and I can see how a "finely tuned athlete" can easily be thrown off his game while going through withdrawal. Or even if it wasn't physical beyond the first couple of weeks, the mental aspect of it is incredibly difficult . (been tobacco free 10 years now and only stopped cravings about a year ago !!!!)

The guy quit tobacco. And Nolan Ryan is being a total ######### in criticizing any aspect of that effort.





   28. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:06 AM (#4263352)
So tobacco is performance enhancing?
   29. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:06 AM (#4263355)
Trot out all the hysterial adjectives about dipping you want; I don't want to pay a guy big dollars for his post-prime years and have him doing counterproductive, bizarre #### midseason because God or Jesus told him to. In my estimation, people get odder with that stuff as they get older and their youth and natural skills begin to fade. Someone else can deal with that nonsense.





   30. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:07 AM (#4263357)
Tobacco is incredibly addicting, and I can see how a "finely tuned athlete" can easily be thrown off his game while going through withdrawal. Or even if it wasn't physical beyond the first couple of weeks, the mental aspect of it is incredibly difficult . (been tobacco free 10 years now and only stopped cravings about a year ago !!!!)

And that's why it was counterproductive to quit on a whim, midseason.
   31. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:09 AM (#4263361)
have him doing counterproductive, bizarre #### midseason because God or Jesus told him to.


Would it be more acceptable to you if he had done it solely for health reasons and did not invoke God or Jesus?
   32. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:10 AM (#4263363)
It does seem to me that since there is an off-season in baseball, a several-month-long off-season in fact, the off-season would be a better time to voluntarily subject yourself to horrible withdrawal symptoms than, for example, when your team needs you to play well. In fact, it seems absolutely bizarre to try to quit tobacco during the season.
   33. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:10 AM (#4263364)
Would it be more acceptable to you if he had done it solely for health reasons and did not invoke God or Jesus?

Of course.
   34. JJ1986 Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:10 AM (#4263365)
Trot out all the hysterial adjectives about dipping you want; I don't want to pay a guy big dollars for his post-prime years and have him doing counterproductive, bizarre #### midseason because God or Jesus told him to. In my estimation, people get odder with that stuff as they get older and their youth and natural skills begin to fade. Someone else can deal with that nonsense.


What if he was on steroids and wanted to quit? Would you be against that if it depressed his performance?
   35. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:12 AM (#4263368)
I saw a band at a German festival in Indiana this past summer, and the singer introduced the next song by saying something like "Brownsville Station had a big hit with Smokin' in the Boys Room but because we're farm boys from Indiana, we changed the words" and proceeded to sing Dippin' in the Boys Room. Fun stuff.

Didn't catch the bands' name but they rocked the tent.

EDIT: And yeah, Ryan comes across as an a-hole here.
   36. Dave Spiwak Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:12 AM (#4263369)
Nolan Ryan seems to think that smokeless tobacco is some sort of magical PED, and when you stop chewing on it during games it takes your power away. Who knows -- maybe it's true. If so, shouldn't it be banned? Regardless, Ryan comes off as a total a-hole, and the Rangers window has likely closed.
   37. Kurt Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:13 AM (#4263372)
O.K.
Just a little wad in your jaw
There'll be no more aaaaaaaah!
But you may feel a little sick

Can you stand up?
I do believe it's working
Good
That'll keep you going through the show
Come on it's time to go
   38. shoewizard Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:13 AM (#4263373)
And that's why it was counterproductive to quit on a whim, midseason.


Counterproductive to whom ?

It's one less damaging thing going into Hamilton's body. Thats a good thing. Or is EVERYTHING sbjugated to what happens on the field ?

Next time I hear someone say in a time of crisis, "This really puts everything in perspective, and lets you know baseball is just a game", I'll be sure t link this thread.
   39. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:15 AM (#4263377)
The Red Sox apparently quit clubhouse fried chicken and beer during the offseason. Didn't help them any.
   40. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:15 AM (#4263378)
Counterproductive to whom ?

The team paying his salary.
   41. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:17 AM (#4263380)
Shoewizard, you are quite the public-health zealot. It was really that essential that he quit using tobacco in June 2012? Not November 2012? Come on.
   42. SoSH U at work Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:17 AM (#4263381)
Trot out all the hysterial adjectives about dipping you want; I don't want to pay a guy big dollars for his post-prime years and have him doing counterproductive, bizarre #### midseason because God or Jesus told him to. In my estimation, people get odder with that stuff as they get older and their youth and natural skills begin to fade. Someone else can deal with that nonsense.


If Hamilton knew (or even suspected) that quitting midseason would screw with his game, I can understand this perspective. Frankly, I don't know that's a reasonable assumption.

I quit smokeless last year after dipping for 20+ years. I found that this time (compared to previous stops and starts), it was remarkably easy. I'm positive it didn't affect my productivity level at work remained unchanged, at its consistent low level.

It's also possible that Hamilton determined that quitting while he was working, and therefore busy, was a hell of a lot easier than when he had six months of doing nothing. In fact, it's possible he's tried to quit in the offseason and found it too difficult because of the downtime.
   43. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:18 AM (#4263383)
Would it be more acceptable to you if he had done it solely for health reasons and did not invoke God or Jesus?

Of course.


Fair enough.
   44. HGM Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:18 AM (#4263386)
So, just to get this straight. If you stop taking a drug and this has a negative impact on your performance, you're bad. If you start taking a drug and it has a positive impact on your performance, you're bad.

Cool.
   45. Traderdave Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:19 AM (#4263388)
Quitting a nasty & harmful habit is good. Loudly proclaiming an alleged higher power's role in it is annoying. As hell.



Also, I wonder, couldn't he have just gone on the patch or chewed nicotine gum so as not to feel ill?

And is it really that hard to quit dip? When I quit Camels 20-odd years ago, I only recall a bit of pencil chewing & nail biting. I know dip has much more nicotine per dose, but really THAT much? Serious question...
   46. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:20 AM (#4263389)
It does seem to me that since there is an off-season in baseball, a several-month-long off-season in fact, the off-season would be a better time to voluntarily subject yourself to horrible withdrawal symptoms than, for example, when your team needs you to play well. In fact, it seems absolutely bizarre to try to quit tobacco during the season.


If quitting tobacco makes you healthier I think you can argue fairly easily that Hamilton thought by quitting in-season he was actually going to HELP not hurt the Rangers.
   47. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:21 AM (#4263390)
And is it really that hard to quit dip? When I quit Camels 20-odd years ago, I only recall a bit of pencil chewing & nail biting. I know dip has much more nicotine per dose, but really THAT much? Serious question...


Terry Francona had significant problems with it during his tenure in Boston. There were a couple of years where he would "quit" prior to the season and within about a week of Opening Day he was back at it. I think he eventually did quit but I remember him having some issues.
   48. HGM Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:24 AM (#4263399)
Quitting a nasty & harmful habit is good. Loudly proclaiming an alleged higher power's role in it is annoying. As hell.

Sure, but that's not all that people are objecting to.
   49. SoSH U at work Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:26 AM (#4263401)
And is it really that hard to quit dip? When I quit Camels 20-odd years ago, I only recall a bit of pencil chewing & nail biting. I know dip has much more nicotine per dose, but really THAT much? Serious question...


Yes and no. I probably tried a dozen times over the years, sometimes going as long as two weeks without but eventually giving in and restarting the habit. The last time, perhaps because I sensed a certain now or never aspect to the attempt that was absent previously, it was easy. I've found overcoming the physical craving was always much easier than the mental aspect.

   50. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:31 AM (#4263414)
Is MLB paying his salary?


I might be wrong about this, but aren't players' paychecks issued by MLB, rather than the individual clubs?
   51. shoewizard Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:31 AM (#4263415)
Shoewizard, you are quite the public-health zealot. It was really that essential that he quit using tobacco in June 2012? Not November 2012? Come on.


I'm a personal choice zealot.

Are you saying that he should continue a dangerous addiction until November on the chance that it MIGHT affect his performanace on the field ? Think about what you are saying man. Come on.
   52. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:33 AM (#4263417)
Quitting a nasty & harmful habit is good. Loudly proclaiming an alleged higher power's role in it is annoying. As hell.


So if Hamilton were an alcoholic who went dry with the help of AA, you'd be against that, too?
   53. Nasty Nate Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:34 AM (#4263421)

Hamilton's way too high-maintenance for my tastes and I've already got great production from him in his prime, for a decent price.
...
I don't want to pay a guy big dollars for his post-prime years and have him doing counterproductive, bizarre #### midseason because God or Jesus told him to.


Are you involved in the Rangers?

Also, Hamilton's pretty much in his prime now or damn near close to it. If "you" want to play only prospects or inferior players who happen to be 26 rather than a better player who is 31 (which is not old in baseball terms, contrary to pervading thinking at bbtf), your teams generally will not be very good.
   54. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4263423)

Shoewizard, you are quite the public-health zealot. It was really that essential that he quit using tobacco in June 2012? Not November 2012? Come on.


Yes. It really is that essential to stop using tobacco as soon as possible. Tobacco products are terrible for you. Suggesting that somebody should continue to intentionally cause long-term potentially fatal harm to their body so they can hit a baseball well is ####### ridiculous.
   55. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:39 AM (#4263431)
Are you saying that he should continue a dangerous addiction until November on the chance that it MIGHT affect his performanace on the field ?

Yes. It really is that essential to stop using tobacco as soon as possible. Tobacco products are terrible for you. Suggesting that somebody should continue to intentionally cause long-term potentially fatal harm to their body so they can hit a baseball well is ####### ridiculous.

The hysteria about dip has reached Reefer Madness levels of hysteria. Won't someone think of the children?
   56. Traderdave Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:41 AM (#4263437)
So if Hamilton were an alcoholic who went dry with the help of AA, you'd be against that, too?


I didn't say I opposed it, I said it's annoying. It is. Hamilton's Jesus drama is self-absorbed and annoying to many others. A poster yesterday (I don't recall who) said that if JH can't handle being in a clubhouse with champagne, he needs a lot more non-religious help.

Can't one be pleased that a person is working hard to battle a problem and also annoyed by billboard religiousity?
   57. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:42 AM (#4263440)
Quitting a nasty & harmful habit is good. Loudly proclaiming an alleged higher power's role in it is annoying. As hell.


So what if it's preachy and annoying. I can't stand some of the stories written about Hamilton (ooh look his teammates use ginger ale to celebrate with!), but damn, who cares what his reason for stopping is.



Also, I wonder, couldn't he have just gone on the patch or chewed nicotine gum so as not to feel ill?

How do you know he didn't use the patch or chew gum? Those don't always work.

And is it really that hard to quit dip? When I quit Camels 20-odd years ago, I only recall a bit of pencil chewing & nail biting. I know dip has much more nicotine per dose, but really THAT much? Serious question...
So it wasn't very hard for you, so what? Are you an addict? Have you almost destroyed your life with heroin? Nicotine is at least as addictive as any hardcore drug out there (chemically speaking - as alluded to in the previous sentences it's obviously different for everyone).
   58. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:45 AM (#4263444)
The hysteria about dip has reached Reefer Madness levels of hysteria. Won't someone think of the children?


No, it really hasn't. Reefer Madness portrays people going insane and killing other people after smoking weed, suggesting dip causes oral cancer is not even close to the same thing. Do you honestly think dip is not harmful?
   59. Traderdave Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:46 AM (#4263447)
So it wasn't very hard for you, so what? Are you an addict? Have you almost destroyed your life with heroin? Nicotine is at least as addictive as any hardcore drug out there (chemically speaking - as alluded to in the previous sentences it's obviously different for everyone).


I was just asking a question. I have no experience quitting dip. I do have quitting squares. It was just a question.
   60. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:48 AM (#4263453)
No, it really hasn't. Reefer Madness portrays people going insane and killing other people after smoking weed, suggesting dip causes oral cancer is not even close to the same thing. Do you honestly think dip is not harmful?

Dip doesn't "cause" oral cancer; it increases the odds of incurring oral cancer, which remain very small even for dippers. Dip is not so "harmful" as to cause a clear and present danger necessitating immediate action or anything remotely close. That suggestion is hysterical.
   61. john_halfz Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:50 AM (#4263456)
Why are we picking sides? Nolan Ryan and Josh Hamilton both have execrable public personas. I hate to pile on an addict with a serious illness, but the constant invocation of Jesus as a means of attracting positive attention is old. Why the need to talk about quitting dip in cryptogram koans? Just another excuse to let everyone know that old flame tats is making things right with the big guy in the sky.

If I were a teammate of long standing, my empathy and sympathy would be at a pretty low ebb right now. Worse still, I'd have to work for Nolan Ryan. I'd rather play in Seattle.
   62. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:53 AM (#4263463)
It's just an undisciplined and weird thing for Hamilton to do. It's not just that he quit (which isn't inherently objectionable); it's that he quit for odd, if not outright spurious, reasons.(*) I don't want that around if I can help it.

Hamilton's way too high-maintenance for my tastes and I've already got great production from him in his prime, for a decent price. Someone else can pay him big dollars as he gets older and odder and his prime fades into the mists of nostalgia.

(*) It's analogous to a guy converting to Islam on August 1, and proceeding to fast and otherwise completely alter his diet. Continuing thinking out loud, you don't even need the Islam part; it's like a guy becoming a vegan on August 1 and proceeding to suck down the stretch. I'd say it's worse than the vegan example.


How does converting to Islam make you healthier? That analogy really does not work. If Hamilton decided to become a vegan and starved himself then yes, he should be criticized, and so should the team trainers and doctors for not paying attention to him. But why would becoming a vegan lower ones athletic performance? Tony Gonzalez touts his mostly vegan diet for remaining in the NFL for so long (as the best TE ever, so he's doing ok).
   63. jmurph Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:54 AM (#4263466)
This is just crazy town in this thread. I'm trying and failing to think of a crazier line of argument that anyone has ever advanced here in the 7ish years I've been reading/posting.
   64. john_halfz Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:58 AM (#4263476)
[60] The cancer epidemiologist weighs in!
   65. shoewizard Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:58 AM (#4263479)
This is just crazy town in this thread. I'm trying and failing to think of a crazier line of argument that anyone has ever advanced here in the 7ish years I've been reading/posting.


Which line ? I can even see where MY line of argument can be seen as crazy. ;)
   66. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:59 AM (#4263480)
Can't one be pleased that a person is working hard to battle a problem and also annoyed by billboard religiousity?


My point was that the religious stuff is probably at least part of what's helping him let go of the substances. He's transferring his compulsive behaviors to more benign targets, including the "opiate of the masses". Even if you aren't religious and don't care for overt displays of religious belief, I'd think you'd still be willing to grit your teeth and cut Hamilton some slack, under the circumstances.
   67. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: October 11, 2012 at 10:59 AM (#4263482)
This is just crazy town in this thread. I'm trying and failing to think of a crazier line of argument that anyone has ever advanced here in the 7ish years I've been reading/posting.

Oh come on now, you give us too much credit!
   68. Swedish Chef Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:00 AM (#4263483)
There's no reason to believe there's any causal relation here. The Rangers are just looking for a scapegoat to pin it all on*. If there had been no tobacco, this would be about his boombox or laz-e-boy.

*) It's a biblical concept! Pretty Old Testamentey though.
   69. jmurph Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:01 AM (#4263486)
Which line ? I can even see where MY line of argument can be seen as crazy. ;)


The one in which 2 (I think it's just 2) people are claiming that Josh Hamilton owes it to his employer to maintain a terribly unhealthy habit until it fits with their schedule, based on the insane idea that it will help him hit baseballs better.
   70. jmurph Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:02 AM (#4263490)
Oh come on now, you give us too much credit!


Shooty, your crazy ideas are tied exclusively to Spurs discussions (I kid).
   71. shoewizard Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:04 AM (#4263499)
[60] The cancer epidemiologist weighs in!


Ha! So have Others

Because all tobacco products are harmful and cause cancer, the use of all of these products should be strongly discouraged. There is no safe level of tobacco use. People who use any type of tobacco product should be urged to quit.


Eat #### Nolan Ryan, you hypocrite.


Some more for those still feeling cavalier with someone elses health so their fantasy team can move from 3rd to 2nd....
   72. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:05 AM (#4263500)
Dip doesn't "cause" oral cancer; it increases the odds of incurring oral cancer, which remain very small even for dippers.


By that standard, radiation doesn't "cause" cancer, either, but that doesn't mean I'd willingly expose myself to a "hot" environment for a few months just to make my boss happy.
   73. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:06 AM (#4263504)

The one in which 2 (I think it's just 2) people are claiming that Josh Hamilton owes it to his employer to maintain a terribly unhealthy habit until it fits with their schedule, based on the insane idea that it will help him hit baseballs better.


It really is surreal. I just can't fathom insisting someone continue to use tobacco for the good of the employer.

And then I remembered I was arguing with SBB and have decided to move on.
   74. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:06 AM (#4263505)
The one in which 2 (I think it's just 2) people are claiming that Josh Hamilton owes it to his employer to maintain a terribly unhealthy habit until it fits with their schedule, based on the insane idea that it will help him hit baseballs better.

"insane idea"? Using dip is what he's used to. It's part of his routine. He probably perceives it as keepin him calm and focused. You don't think that experiencing withdrawal symptoms, combined with the usual fidgeting and uncertainty that comes with forcing oneself to quit a habit, MIGHT make him hit baseballs worse?
   75. SoSH U at work Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:07 AM (#4263508)
Even if you aren't religious and don't care for overt displays of religious belief, I'd think you'd still be willing to grit your teeth and cut Hamilton some slack, under the circumstances.


Wait, you're not new here.

I gotta say, from my vantage point, the overt displays of religiosity are matched pretty well by the overt hostility towards it, on the obnoxiousness scale.

   76. john_halfz Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:08 AM (#4263509)
During the 1980 season, Nolan Ryan threatened to beat Joaquin Andujar to death with a tire iron if he stopped preparing for starts with massive doses of cocaine. Nolan's just old fashioned in that way. Sacrifice your body for the team.
   77. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:10 AM (#4263514)
The one in which 2 (I think it's just 2) people are claiming that Josh Hamilton owes it to his employer to maintain a terribly unhealthy habit until it fits with their schedule, based on the insane idea that it will help him hit baseballs better.

Except no one ever said he "owed" it to his employer, only that his employer is in the right for being disappointed in his inability to manage his life better, in that inability denigrating his work performance, and for those things impacting its willingness to continue the relationship.

This incessant idea around here that a player can just do whatever he wants whenever he wants and be immune from all criticism and sanction from his employer, be it manager or front office, is pure fanboy.
   78. john_halfz Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4263515)
[75] Larry Johnson completes a four point play, aided by a chintzy foul call and salutes Allah. So what? Allan Houston spends 90 seconds of a 2 minute interview talking about serving Jesus. Not insightful, but so what?

Addict with a generally positive recovery story continually invokes his Lord and Savior to get attention. Josh, we're proud of you, homey. But there's a lot of guys in the major leagues today with pretty intense religious beliefs who are able to mostly keep it to themselves.
   79. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4263524)
From the article, "Smokeout Chairman Named", published in the Wood County Democrat on November 9, 1988:

AUSTIN - Houston Astros pitcher Nolan Ryan will break in a new "pitch" this fall as Texas's Honorary Chairman for the American Cancer Society's Great American Smokeout.

The Great American Smokeout is sponsored by the American Cancer Society each year on the Thursday before Thanksgiving to encourage tobacco users to set aside their cigarettes, pipes, cigars, snuff, and chewing tobacco for 24 hours.
   80. SoSH U at work Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:15 AM (#4263528)
Addict with a generally positive recovery story continually invokes his Lord and Savior to get attention.


That's your interpretation. I have no idea what goes through Josh Hamilton's head, so I don't ascribe motivations to his actions. That's DiPerna territory.
   81. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:15 AM (#4263529)
From the article, "Smokeout Chairman Named", published in the Wood County Democrat on November 9, 1988:

AUSTIN - Houston Astros pitcher Nolan Ryan will break in a new "pitch" this fall as Texas's Honorary Chairman for the American Cancer Society's Great American Smokeout.


Exactly. Nolan Ryan would have no complaints if Hamilton had suddenly decided to quit tobacco on November 9.
   82. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:15 AM (#4263533)
This incessant idea around here that a player can just do whatever he wants and be immune from all criticism from his employer, be it manager or front office, is pure fanboy.

I seem to recall that BBTF is anti-truck washing when it comes to player behavior... Also, the extremes in the sentence of yours I've quoted give me a good chuckle. SOYLENT GREEN! YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! DON'T GET COCKY! BUZZ LIGHTYEAR TO THE RESCUE!
   83. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4263542)
Also, Hamilton's religiosity doesn't really bother me. I don't hang out with the guy so the only exposure I have to it are the occasional articles quoting him that get linked to here. I'm not exactly knee-deep in Hamilton's love for the lord. I'm sure my friends and I have certain topics we can never shut up about, either, that to outsiders might seem grating and repetitive but to us are invisible as objects of scorn.
   84. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4263543)
Except no one ever said he "owed" it to his employer, only that his employer is in the right for being disappointed in his inability to manage his life better...


So at the time they traded for him, they were unaware that he was using chewing tobacco, or that he might want to quit in the future? If so, isn't that the fault of their scouts rather than Hamilton?
   85. HGM Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:20 AM (#4263544)
Except no one ever said he "owed" it to his employer, only that his employer is in the right for being disappointed in his inability to manage his life better, in that inability denigrating his work performance, and for those things impacting its willingness to continue the relationship.

This implication that doing something that will positively affect his ACTUAL HEALTH and life, but may adversely affect his baseball performance, represents an "inability to manage his life better" is disgusting.
   86. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4263550)
It's too late to go back, but I wish my first post had been, "This is the worst thing a star player has stopped doing since Ike stopped making alibis."
   87. Spectral Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4263555)
So if Hamilton were an alcoholic who went dry with the help of AA, you'd be against that, too?


Since AA isn't very effective and is thoroughly God-soaked, I wouldn't be real big on it. I'd wish him the best, but I don't think it's the best way to go about one's business.
   88. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4263557)
While we're talking about the past, didn't Ryan's father die of cancer? Fairly young, at that?
   89. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:24 AM (#4263558)

This implication that doing something that will positively affect his ACTUAL HEALTH and life, but may adversely affect his baseball performance, represents an "inability to manage his life better" is disgusting.


Joe? Joe Buck?

These players are paid a ton of money to perform on the baseball field. If you make odd decisions for strange reasons that make you not perform on the baseball field, you're not going to make your employer happy. I don't know how anyone could be confused about these facts of life, but facts of life they are.

The Texas Rangers aren't paying Josh Hamilton to reduce his odds of getting oral cancer from tiny to less tiny. Simple as that.
   90. Spectral Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4263564)
I gotta say, from my vantage point, the overt displays of religiosity are matched pretty well by the overt hostility towards it, on the obnoxiousness scale.


This is only true if one believes message board posts to be equivalent to pro athletes feeling the need to constantly inform people of their religious beliefs. I don't think I've ever seen an atheist athlete make a big deal of having a problem with religion.
   91. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4263565)
SBB, why are you taking Ryan's word for it that quitting chew made him suck? Is it because of the authority all those Advil commercials give him?
   92. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:29 AM (#4263567)
I don't like criticizing athletes for religiosity, but Hamilton is a special case. We all remember those cryptic comments he made earlier this year, about how he was mad at himself for doing things God didn't want him to do? And that turned out to be a reference to how he was backsliding in his attempts to quit tobacco? He was not doing it for health reasons, he was not doing it on the advice of any trainer or medical person, he was doing it for religious reasons. It seems that religion helps him stay off the harder drugs and alcohol, but it also makes him do things for reasons that nobody else can explain.

Also that article answers one question I had -- he's been chewing tobacco since he was 20 (he's now 31).
   93. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:29 AM (#4263569)
If you make odd decisions for strange reasons that make you not perform on the baseball field, you're not going to make your employer happy.


In what way is the decision to quit voluntarily subjecting yourself to a known carcinogen odd?
   94. HGM Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4263573)
Quitting a drug is not a "strange decision."

And sure, I guess he clearly didn't make his employer happy, but Hamilton's OWN DAMN LIFE is more important than his employer's happiness. Yes, he's paid a lot of money, but the fact of the matter is that his own health is still more important, or rather, should be more important, than his baseball performance.

I still can't grasp this baffling inconsistency with PED use. PED use is unhealthy but is supposed to increase baseball performance, but anybody that tries to improve performance through drug use is a bad person, but the same goes for anybody that tries to improve their health by stopping drug use...
   95. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4263574)
If you make odd decisions for strange reasons that make you not perform on the baseball field, you're not going to make your employer happy.


Such as if you refuse to try steroids, even though they might make you stronger.
   96. Spectral Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:32 AM (#4263578)
In what way is the decision to quit voluntarily subjecting yourself to a known carcinogen odd?


Changing a routine, in a sport known for routine, and subjecting oneself to withdrawl symptoms in the middle of the season on the basis that you think you're making God angry (his words indicate that's his reasoning, I'm not making things up) is pretty damned odd to me. Perhaps you disagree, but surely you can see why some would think this to be odd behavior?

I still can't grasp this baffling inconsistency with PED use. PED use is unhealthy but is supposed to increase baseball performance, but anybody that tries to improve performance through drug use is a bad person, but the same goes for anybody that tries to improve their health by stopping drug use...


I agree with this. It's exactly why I was never all that bent out of shape about PED use. Using PEDs is an entirely understandable, and perhaps even rational decision, during the '90s.
   97. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:34 AM (#4263581)
And sure, I guess he clearly didn't make his employer happy, but Hamilton's OWN DAMN LIFE is more important than his employer's happiness.

Not to his employer, it isn't. What's important to his employer is Josh Hamilton producing on the baseball field.

   98. SoSH U at work Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:35 AM (#4263582)
This is only true if one believes message board posts to be equivalent to pro athletes feeling the need to constantly inform people of their religious beliefs. I don't think I've ever seen an atheist athlete make a big deal of having a problem with religion.


I don't see why the forum, or the speaker, makes much of a difference, on how obnoxious a comment is. That has always struck me as a weak cover.
   99. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:36 AM (#4263587)
And that turned out to be a reference to how he was backsliding in his attempts to quit tobacco? He was not doing it for health reasons, he was doing it for religious reasons.


That doesn't mean that the religious reasons don't circle back onto health reasons. Christian disapproval of tobacco (and other recreational drugs) comes from 1 Corintians 6: 19-20. "What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

Sounds like the Bible's saying that it's your Christian duty to stay in good shape, doesn't it? So isn't that at the heart a health-based reason, even if it's presented within religious terminology?
   100. HGM Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:38 AM (#4263591)
Not to his employer, it isn't. What's important to his employer is Josh Hamilton producing on the baseball field.
Ok. You're not his employer, so why are you criticizing his decision? By criticizing it, again, you're implying that he owes more to his employer than he does to himself.
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