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Wednesday, November 14, 2018

Sale of Baseball Prospectus

...it is our pleasure to announce that today marks the newest of the many eras of Baseball Prospectus. A group of the site’s senior staff has purchased Baseball Prospectus, effective immediately. For the first time in a long time, BP will be run by BP again. By the people who have worked to make the site what it is.

Over the coming months, we’ll be making general improvements to the site as we refocus our energies on making BP the best it can be. This is an exciting time for us, as we’ll be rolling out new projects that we’ve been working on for some time (hello, DRC!) and add some polish to make the tools we already provide more intuitive and user-friendly (goodbye, legacy stats pages!).

But while we have our own shopping list of improvements, we also want to hear from you, the subscribers and lapsed or prospective subscribers, to hear what you’d like to see us prioritize in the coming months and beyond. For that, we’d like to ask you to take the following survey, and tell us what you want BP to be, in both the short and long term.

Click through to access the survey and tell them what you want from them. Except don’t ask for forums. They’re a non-starter. All cost, no revenue.

villageidiom Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:27 AM | 463 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: above-it-all mien, baseball prospectus, player evaluation, projection

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   301. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: November 16, 2018 at 07:15 PM (#5788645)
4021 as the Hugh Jorgan returns, about 2500 as the original Hugh Jorgan, but that log in got turfed out somehow a few years back.

I'd miss this place and many of the very clever posts if it went away, but it does get a bit caustic at times which I suppose you'd expect from the internet.

Have only used ignore on one poster but have since switched it off and can see everyone's posts....both good(the majority!) and bad.
   302. Eric L Posted: November 16, 2018 at 08:04 PM (#5788656)
Zonk, I can't call you awesome as long as you are a Cubs fan. It's a point of pride that I was physically
presents for some of the Cubs biggest disasters over the years.
   303. KB JBAR (trhn) Posted: November 16, 2018 at 08:42 PM (#5788666)
I topped out at $8.50 an hour during my 20s. One percent would have amounted to $2,942 at age 30. That's assuming 40 x 52 x $8.50 which is optimistic. Teaching at the community college or third shift at the pudding factory never had anywhere near that consistent hours. I usually lived in low rent neighborhoods, ate refried beans, and lived frugally. The magic of compound interest needs something to compound . (Or a lot of time. I suppose that's a cost of frittering away your twenties.)

Thankfully I have a job with a defined benefit pension (fingers crossed it's still relatively generous in 20 years) and a defined contribution plan, so i should do okay.
   304. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 16, 2018 at 08:55 PM (#5788670)
I topped out at $8.50 an hour during my 20s.

Hell, when I was 39 and before I opened my own shop, I was still making $7.50 an hour.** Fortunately our 2 bedroom apt. in Adams-Morgan back then was about $300 a month, instead of the ~$3500 - $4000 it would be today.

** Okay, I see that would be $18.61 an hour today, so it wasn't really all that bad. But it got a lot better once I could pay myself.
   305. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:08 PM (#5788677)
Did YR pay? We know he's pretty easy going with sharing the cash around...

He did, actually! Very generous of him.


I figured you needed to get something out of the meeting as I was about to ask you to march all over Pittsburgh and serve as my tour guide. Seeing the former site of Forbes Field’s home plate was memorable enough, but you had to make sure I saw where they shot Mr Roger’s Neighborhood and that was the real centerpiece of my visit (and the first thing I told my wife and daughter that evening). Yeah yeah I had some business meetings too, but Mr Rogers will always take precedence over another retina discussion.
   306. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:14 PM (#5788678)
And without SBB and I to generate content that's not in the groupthink (and JE and TGF
and Snapper who had all departed some time ago) OTP will not be the same. I doubt David
and YC can keep it afloat.


That sounds like the greatest collection of fearsome talent since The Dungeon of Doom..
   307. GGC Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:02 PM (#5788697)
Andy, I read Larry McMurtry's BOOKS recently. It was about his less well known career as a book scout and book seller and I have been meaning to ask you if you had any dealings with him when he was operating in DC.

FWIW, I've never read any of his fiction. (I have watched LONESOME DOVE.) But I dug BOOKS, ROADS, and WALTER BENJAMIN AT THE DAIRY QUEEN.
   308. Endless Trash Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:20 PM (#5788705)
So... I'm still trying to figure out who actually bought Bpro.
   309. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:31 PM (#5788715)
Geez, aren't you guys a little premature with the BBTF funeral? You seem to have arrived a bit early.
   310. McCoy Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:35 PM (#5788717)
Compound interest is nice and all but retirement funds can get wiped out in a hurry.

When I was born my parents opened up a mutual fund for me. Probably something like $500. In my teens it was at something like $1800. At the height of the dot com it was at something like $8000. Post bubble it was at something like $2000.
   311. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:40 PM (#5788719)
Andy, I read Larry McMurtry's BOOKS recently. It was about his less well known career as a book scout and book seller and I have been meaning to ask you if you had any dealings with him when he was operating in DC.

Quite a bit, actually, especially when I had my first shop in Georgetown between 1984 and 1988. He'd come in and buy from me on a fairly regular basis, and even once provided me with a thrill by bringing in Susan Sontag, who bought a fair number of my Russian / Soviet history books and borrowed some more from my own collection. I still have a very nice letter of appreciation she wrote me when she asked to borrow them. This was about 5 years after she scandalized the Left with her description of Communism as "successful fascism".

But back to McMurtry: Very nice man, though not very talkative, and of the hundreds of dealers I've met and dealt with over the years, he had more genuine book knowledge than any of them.** All subjects, too, not a one trick pony like so many others. When I was a buyer for another shop before I opened my own, I used to pride myself in being among the quickest to spot the best books at the weekly downtown Weschler's auctions, and bundle them into lots that I could then bid on and win the next day. The other dealers were never much competition, but there was one exception: Larry. He could go through a table of 200 books and pick the 10 or 15 best titles so quickly that it was like watching a Vegas dealer shuffle a deck of cards. Total respect for him as a dealer and as a person, though except for Books: A Memoir and Walter Benjamin at the Dairy Queen, I've never actually read any of his books, though I've read a ton of his nonfiction essay writings and book reviews in the NYROB.

And to be honest, I was disappointed in Books: A Memoir, for this reason: He's too nice a guy. There are some genuine dirtball dealers he's known and dealt with over the years, one of whom in particular has been infamous in local circles for over 40 years, and he knows full well what sleazeballs and con men they are. But he never mentions any of this either of his memoirs, which still leaves them as interesting reading but not nearly as much as they could have been.

Another explanation, of course, is that he simply looked upon dealers like that as if they were characters in one of his novels, and since none of them would ever have dared to try any of their crap on him, he may never have seen the dark side of them first hand. It's sort of the way some of us undoubtedly look upon some of our more, er, unusual fellow Primates.

** His personal library in Arizona has many tens of thousands of books, and I doubt if more than a handful of them would be ones I'd consider throwaways.
   312. Ziggy's screen name Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:49 PM (#5788722)
I wonder how many lurkers we have, and if there's any way to find out.
   313. Eric L Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:53 PM (#5788725)
Lurk
   314. Eric L Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:55 PM (#5788726)
F double post.

If Jim wanted to really do something with this he would
make an app. This can be a pain on the phone.
   315. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:55 PM (#5788727)
I wonder how many lurkers we have, and if there's any way to find out.

It's at the bottom of the Home Page, and updated in real time:

Currently there are 46 fearless Primates, 0 anonymous Primates and 261 lurkers viewing the site.
   316. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 16, 2018 at 11:25 PM (#5788732)
Currently there are 46 fearless Primates, 0 anonymous Primates and 261 lurkers viewing the site.

Some of those lurkers, perhaps even most, may be Primates who haven't decided if the current content motivates them to actually sign in.
   317. Chicago Joe Posted: November 16, 2018 at 11:27 PM (#5788733)
At least 95% of the time, I do not sign in.
   318. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: November 16, 2018 at 11:34 PM (#5788735)
If I'm at work I'll lurk with no sign in all the time unless I want to comment, only then will I sign in. Needless to say this year, as a Red Sox fan, saw me post more as there was A LOT of Red Sox threads this year.

Also I think a lot of us came here in our 20's and early 30's(10-15 years ago) and now are older, have kids, married, etc. etc and just have a lot more going on these days.
   319. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: November 17, 2018 at 12:58 AM (#5788743)
I only sign in if I want to post.
   320. Red Voodooin Posted: November 17, 2018 at 01:17 AM (#5788744)
I only post after I've signed in.
   321. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 17, 2018 at 08:54 AM (#5788746)
#318, yep, I came here when I was about 21, 15+ years ago. I’ve since gone from entry level to relatively senior within my profession, gotten married (no kids yet), bought a home, developed other interests and hobbies...even though I was never one of the most prolific or regular posters, one of the nice things about this place is reading/hearing about the life milestones of some of the other longtime members over the years. And of course, one of the sobering things is when longtime posters pass away.
   322. GGC Posted: November 17, 2018 at 09:28 AM (#5788747)
Been here since '01 when I met Jim at a regional SABR meeting. I had just turned 33.

Thanks, Andy.
   323. McCoy Posted: November 17, 2018 at 09:58 AM (#5788749)
I came here when I was 25. I am not 25 anymore.

I'm now on my 6th state, 10th job, second career, second fiance now wife, 6th pet, 6th car, first house, and expecting first born next year.
   324. Greg Pope Posted: November 17, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5788754)
At least 95% of the time, I do not sign in.

When I'm on my PC at home or work, I get signed in automatically. When I'm on my iPad, it signs me in automatically sometimes, but not others.
   325. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: November 17, 2018 at 10:52 AM (#5788756)
It's been more than seven hours since Jacob DeGrom and his 10-9 record won the Cy Young Award, and no thread has been posted yet on BTF's Newsstand.

There's a link to submit threads. It takes only slightly more effort to submit a thread than it does to complain about the lack of such a thread - and less effort than complaining about the lack of such a thread in multiple other threads. I'm looking at the queue of recently-submitted threads, back to late October, and none are in "pending" status (i.e. waiting for an editor to publish). The last 10 submissions were by Jim. The only ones that were rejected since late October were duplicates. (e.g. Several threads were submitted on Willie McCovey's passing, but only one is published.)

"Well, just submit something if you want a place to discuss it" isn't a solution when administrator approval is required and may not be forthcoming for several hours or longer. I submitted November pop culture the morning of November 1 and it didn't go live until the following afternoon. That's not a giant problem with a monthly off-topic thread, but it certainly is with anything topical. An overnight submission will pretty reliably go live as part of a morning wave. News happens any time mid-morning or later? Hope it goes live by that evening.

That's why Repoz's departure was the death of this place.
   326. McCoy Posted: November 17, 2018 at 11:04 AM (#5788758)
It also isn't just about posting something. It is about getting a conversation going. We're in a period of baseball news that used to be catnip for BTF. MVP awards, HoF voting, all the other various other awards, and the hot stove and yet you're lucky to get a few dozen posts on any of these topics.
   327. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 17, 2018 at 11:05 AM (#5788759)
When I'm on my PC at home or work, I get signed in automatically.

Same here, although for some reason about once every 6 weeks I get asked to sign in again. This isn't the only site with that quirk, though, and it's far from the worst.
   328. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 17, 2018 at 11:09 AM (#5788761)
It also isn't just about posting something. It is about getting a conversation going. We're in a period of baseball news that used to be catnip for BTF. MVP awards, HoF voting, all the other various other awards, and the hot stove and yet you're lucky to get a few dozen posts on any of these topics.

And when you do, too often it's got the aroma of a twitter conversation, less of a discussion than a series of brain farts that pop into people's heads. Seems like an attention span problem as much as anything else.
   329. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 17, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5788767)
I think the MVP and HOF discussions just aren’t as interesting anymore, given WAR and that most sportswriters and fans are generally on board - and when they’re not it doesn’t really matter because the war has been fought and won. Plus the fact that not letting steroids players in ruined the Hall for many of us.
   330. Rally Posted: November 17, 2018 at 01:51 PM (#5788805)
I am browsing on my phone right now, and signed in. I never know whether I’ll still be signed in or not when I visit on the phone. Don’t even notice unless I have the desire to comment. On my computer, I stay signed in.
   331. Red Voodooin Posted: November 17, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5788806)
The steroid wars was probably the peak of BBTF participation, and I don't really that particular debate, tbh
   332. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 17, 2018 at 01:57 PM (#5788807)
I leave for my honeymoon in Portugal for two weeks, and it looks like there might not even be a BBTF when I get back? I knew I should have told the neighbors to check up on you. I don’t care who started it, you’re all grounded when I get home.
   333. Darren Posted: November 17, 2018 at 02:08 PM (#5788811)
So is this site ending? What is happening? I'm confused.
   334. Red Voodooin Posted: November 17, 2018 at 02:19 PM (#5788814)
So is this site ending? What is happening? I'm confused.


No. The OTP thread was moved to the forum and has sparked a discussion about the overall state of the website past, present and future.
   335. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 17, 2018 at 02:25 PM (#5788816)
So is this site ending? What is happening? I'm confused.

Snowflake Jim just went the Full Nanny and zapped the OTP threads, but at least for now nothing else has changed. How long BTF sticks around is totally up to SJ, since he obviously listens only to himself and to those who share his restricted vision of what BTF should be.

EDIT: coke to Red
   336. Gazizza, my Dilznoofuses! Posted: November 17, 2018 at 02:41 PM (#5788818)
I'm almost completely a lurker. (I've been here since before registration, but this will only be my 211th comment.)

I'm not much for posting; I mostly lurk on any of the sites I read. I've moved to /r/baseball now because they in many ways remind me of what BBTF used to be: timely and thoughtful discussions, good running jokes and a community who knows and likes each other. It lacks much of the infighting BBTF has developed (even on this thread), I think partly because of Reddit's voting system which can punish and hide unhelpful or rude comments. While there are many toxic subreddits, /r/baseball has largely avoided that. The vitriol that so often manifests on this site keeps me from coming back as frequently as I used to.

It's pretty frequent that by the time an article is even posted here, there's been a thorough conversation with hundreds of comments on Reddit of the same article. As #328 said above, many of the first comments on any post seem to be people seeking to prove how snarky or funny they can be rather than actually offering insight.

So I guess if I were to offer suggestions to improve the site while keeping in mind that my personality will not permit me to be an active part of the solution:
1) Open up posting so more people can post/approve in order to get discussions happening closer to the actual event
2) Offer some sort of downvote procedure so unhelpful comments can be moved down in priority and constructive comments can be made more visible
2a) I would swear I remember this being suggested a while back
2b) I know the ignore option exists, but there are Primates I wouldn't want to completely ock because even though they can often be jerks, they can be insightful when they're not giving in to their baser instincts
3) I think implementing a responsive design, if not an app, so that the site is more mobile friendly would help increase usage. There are a number of people who mostly, if not exclusively, browse on their phones

That's what I can think of off the top of my head.
   337. Tin Angel Posted: November 17, 2018 at 03:32 PM (#5788835)
I do hope if the site is in any sort of trouble, someone lets us know so we can do something about it. This is one of three or four sites on the internet I can actually intelligently engage with people, and definitely the only (mostly) baseball-focused one. I would really, really miss it.
   338. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 17, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5788842)
Snowflake Jim just went the Full Nanny and zapped the OTP threads, but at least for now nothing else has changed. How long BTF sticks around is totally up to SJ, since he obviously listens only to himself and to those who share his restricted vision of what BTF should be.

I think that's more than a bit unfair to Jim. It appears that, after earlier sporadic warnings, Jim simply tired of dealing with the complaints about the tone of OTP, and/or became more aware of how low that tone had sunk. Much of that was due to a single, now-suspended poster (Sam), who contributed very little substance while directing ever-escalating violent eliminationist rhetoric toward those he disagreed with, including numerous wishes for the death of family members of posters he disagreed with. I don't know why such behavior wasn't addressed earlier, but I don't see how it helped the site to have the most active, and prominently featured on Hot Topics, thread be such an off-putting display. I don't know if Jim plans to further elaborate on his reasons, but he briefly addressed the matter in post #285 in the OTP-in-exile thread now in the Forum section of BBTF.

I would have preferred that OTP remain in the main part of the site, with just a bit of effort to enforce the TOS conduct standards. However, it appears that Jim believes his previous efforts should have been sufficient, and I can't really blame him. Those who insisted on posting like like poorly-behaved middle-schoolers deserve the blame for OTP's exile, not Jim.
   339. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 17, 2018 at 04:14 PM (#5788864)
That'd be more convincing if one of the site's former administrators weren't one of the most habitual and downright nasty offenders, and unlike Sam, he continues to be tolerated, for reasons that will never be explained.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that he should've been banned, either, but that's because I think the Ignore feature should be sufficient for any rudeness or whatever that genuinely offends people. And neither Sam nor Dan ever sunk to the level of Joey B, who IMO was the one Primate who truly deserved what he got.
   340. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 17, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5788869)
That'd be more convincing if one of the site's former administrators weren't one of the most habitual and downright nasty offenders, and unlike Sam, he continues to be tolerated, for reasons that will never be explained.

If you think calling you senile is anything on the same level as spreading religous hatred, telling someone they hope his wife has a miscarriage, outright violent threats, or telling a poster that he hopes his children predecease him, you should express your moral standard with the most effective tool at your hands, a boycott. A 13.63-year boycott would be just the trick to show Jim you mean business.
   341. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 17, 2018 at 10:41 PM (#5788938)
   342. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 18, 2018 at 01:13 AM (#5788948)
DJS solves the mystery of who ruined BBTF.

"Service unavailable"

Oh no! Dan had that site nuked too! Or maybe he started a DDoS attack on it!

I am kidding. Love you all, even though you sometimes make it awfully hard ;)
   343. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 18, 2018 at 04:50 AM (#5788950)
Oh no! Dan had that site nuked too! Or maybe he started a DDoS attack on it!

I cut Baseball Tonight to one night a week, too!

*
   344. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 18, 2018 at 07:46 AM (#5788952)
Hm, still works for me. Must be my 7 proxies.
   345. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 18, 2018 at 08:53 AM (#5788954)
Or, you know, whoever is hosting that image, got their shit together in the past 6 hours.
   346. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 18, 2018 at 09:57 AM (#5788958)
Or maybe I’m just better at clicking links properly than you are, because I went to a fine institution of higher learning like Ole Miss.
   347. GGC Posted: November 18, 2018 at 09:58 AM (#5788959)
What did Joey B get? The only folks I recall getting exiled were Kevin, Rob Base, and the guy who Yunned this place.
   348. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 18, 2018 at 10:25 AM (#5788965)
Joey B got multiple warnings and then was finally zapped after he couldn't control his outbursts. Picture Dan at his nastiest, with his humorless personal insults against fellow Primates, and then subtract about 20 IQ points and any semblance of baseball knowledge, and you've pretty much got what Joey B represented. In Joey B's case, though, unlike Dan, he didn't restrict his outbursts to OTP threads, but in fact saved his worst rants for Game Chatters, where it was even more out of place. His presence in Game Chatters seemed to be perfectly correlated to the fortunes of the Washington Nats.
   349. Adam Starblind Posted: November 18, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5788972)
The site needs an aesthetic and functional update. Game chatters from 2014 are still linked on the homepage for Pete's sake. There need to be much easier ways to:

1) See and click on threads that are not (a) among the few visible in the newsstand or (b) among the 15 "hot topics." Postings disappear much too quickly. If you're not on here constantly (which applies to most of us) it's very easy to miss something you might have found interesting.

2) Get to threads about your team. You have to surf through page after page to find a tag within a thread to get there. Most of us are most interested in our own team.

3) Suggest improvements to the site -- didn't there used to be a link to a thread from the homepage?

4) Post a thread of your own. Most people seem to agree that the site suffers from a lack of new content. But the system now makes you wait and come back a few hours later, by which time you may well have lost interest in your own posting.

5) Lure back the old crew! I know that's impossible, but it's sad that so many excellent posters from years gone by are no more.

Also -

How about making a way to "like" a comment or a post? Or to respond to a specific comment? People naturally like that kind of feedback, and I'm certain it would lead to more traffic. You could also set it up so that you could find the most "liked" posts. Just because somebody commented recently on something doesn't make it a "hot topic." it just means somebody posted something. Could be their stuffing recipe.

My $0.02

   350. Adam Starblind Posted: November 18, 2018 at 10:58 AM (#5788974)
Oh, and if this site goes away, the Hall of Merit goes away with it, which would be very sad. Perhaps we need a gofundme campaign for the specific purpose of making attractive updates.
   351. SoSH U at work Posted: November 18, 2018 at 11:01 AM (#5788975)
As far as I know, Joey only got banned for a month. He came back, posted a few times, then left on his own.
   352. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: November 18, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5788978)
Never read a word of this site before.
   353. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: November 18, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5788979)
Just because somebody commented recently on something doesn't make it a "hot topic." it just means somebody posted something.

Hey, leave McCoy out of this.
   354. Tin Angel Posted: November 18, 2018 at 11:58 AM (#5788980)
How about making a way to "like" a comment or a post? Or to respond to a specific comment? People naturally like that kind of feedback, and I'm certain it would lead to more traffic.


I like most of your suggestions, except for this one. Please, can we have one place on the internet where people don't worry about getting "likes." IMO this trend has led to a lot of negative things, both on the internet and in real life.
   355. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 18, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5788982)
I clicked Fancy Pants's link and was surprised it *wasn't* an Albright.
   356. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 18, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5788983)
Oh, and if this site goes away, the Hall of Merit goes away with it, which would be very sad. Perhaps we need a gofundme campaign for the specific purpose of making attractive updates.

If the site went away, I'm sure we'd find a new home for it. There's zero chance, in this extremity, that Jim would say BTF owns the rights or just nuke all the material.
   357. Lassus Posted: November 18, 2018 at 12:04 PM (#5788984)
Unless Jim shows up someday, these suggestions are all smoke and fog.
   358. Adam Starblind Posted: November 18, 2018 at 12:10 PM (#5788985)
these suggestions are all smoke


But isn't Jim an actual firefighter?
   359. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 18, 2018 at 12:13 PM (#5788987)
Unless Jim shows up someday, these suggestions are all smoke and fog.

Most of these are fairly simple things.

If BTF were to go away, I'd definitely broach Dave Appelman with the idea of some form of housing over there for Hall of Merit (I'd also need to stash away my Transaction Oracle archives). And I'm sure lots of other BTFers have some server space they could use.
   360. Lassus Posted: November 18, 2018 at 12:15 PM (#5788989)
I meant the suggestions for this place, Jim's actual website.
   361. bobm Posted: November 18, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5788991)
The lag in posting submitted articles is the biggest problem in keeping interest and traffic IMO.
   362. Stormy JE Posted: November 18, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5788996)
Please, can we have one place on the internet where people don't worry about getting "likes." IMO this trend has led to a lot of negative things, both on the internet and in real life.
+1

:)
   363. Hysterical & Useless Posted: November 18, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5789000)
“Lucky and cheap and lucky”: I’d like to add another pillar, an easier said than done one — want any much. At least in terms of costly things. That’s distinct from, though related to, being cheap.



Yeah, Der K, I was using "cheap" to cover both being parsimonious and just not wanting a lot of things. It makes one a royal PITA at Xmas time ("What do you want for Xmas?" "I got no idea.") but makes Life so much simpler.
   364. Adam Starblind Posted: November 18, 2018 at 02:08 PM (#5789004)
Please, can we have one place on the internet where people don't worry about getting "likes." IMO this trend has led to a lot of negative things, both on the internet and in real life.


Perhaps some other sort of acknowledgement then. Because the posts here don't thread (maybe they should?), it can feel like you're shouting into the abyss.
   365. Adam Starblind Posted: November 18, 2018 at 03:16 PM (#5789011)
Oh, and remember the talk of the BBTF app? Those were heady times. The site sucks on a mobile device.
   366. base ball chick Posted: November 18, 2018 at 04:28 PM (#5789030)
Adam Starblind Posted: November 18, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5788972)

The site needs an aesthetic and functional update. Game chatters
from 2014 are still linked on the homepage for Pete's sake. There need to be much easier ways to:

1) See and click on threads that are not (a) among the few visible in the newsstand or (b) among the 15 "hot topics." Postings disappear much too quickly. If you're not on here constantly (which applies to most of us) it's very easy to miss something you might have found interesting.


YES YES YESSSSSSSSSSS

2) Get to threads about your team. You have to surf through page after page to find a tag within a thread to get there. Most of us are most interested in our own team.


YES YES YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS

the tags are unhelpful

3) Suggest improvements to the site -- didn't there used to be a link to a thread from the homepage?

4) Post a thread of your own. Most people seem to agree that the site suffers from a lack of new content. But the system now makes you wait and come back a few hours later, by which time you may well have lost interest in your own posting.


- did that link get taken down
and a few new admins who are here all the time anyway who could OK threads would be very nice

i dipped my toe in reddit and didn't like it

5) Lure back the old crew! I know that's impossible, but it's sad that so many excellent posters from years gone by are no more.




Also -

How about making a way to "like" a comment or a post? Or to respond to a specific comment? People naturally like that kind of feedback, and I'm certain it would lead to more traffic. You could also set it up so that you could find the most "liked" posts. Just because somebody commented recently on something doesn't make it a "hot topic." it just means somebody posted something. Could be their stuffing recipe.

nONONONONO to a like button

we already respond ot a specific comment - quote and post. the forums have those horrible pyrramid thingys which makes it heck to read
   367. John DiFool2 Posted: November 18, 2018 at 06:09 PM (#5789042)
Please, can we have one place on the internet where people don't worry about getting "likes." IMO this trend has led to a lot of negative things, both on the internet and in real life.


Fangraphs is a bad example, now that they allowed up as well as downvotes. If you don't hew to the majority party line over there, you get a lot of downvotes. I typically am very sparing, only upvoting something truly cogent and in-depth or downvoting only truly obvious trolling.
   368. base ball chick Posted: November 18, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5789047)
John DiFool2 Posted: November 18, 2018 at 06:09 PM (#5789042)

Please, can we have one place on the internet where people don't worry about getting "likes." IMO this trend has led to a lot of negative things, both on the internet and in real life.



Fangraphs is a bad example, now that they allowed up as well as downvotes. If you don't hew to the majority party line over there, you get a lot of downvotes. I typically am very sparing, only upvoting something truly cogent and in-depth or downvoting only truly obvious trolling


- agree
   369. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: November 18, 2018 at 07:33 PM (#5789048)
I've never clicked a like button. In fact, I'm probably at about -3 likes or so, as very occasionally I've been able to unclick something my wife has clicked. Does clicking a like button accomplish anything?
   370. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: November 18, 2018 at 07:44 PM (#5789049)
On Twitter, at least, it can serve as a way to bookmark tweets you'd like to revisit.
   371. Adam Starblind Posted: November 18, 2018 at 08:27 PM (#5789057)
It gives the poster a little feedback. Humans are programmed to appreciate that. I agree there shouldn't be a thumbs down. That's just trouble.
   372. PreservedFish Posted: November 18, 2018 at 09:06 PM (#5789063)
On Reddit, the "like" buttons are critical. Some threads can have hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of responses, and the comments that receive the most "likes" bump up to the top. It's a pretty damn good filter - if there weren't some way of quickly accessing the best 10 or 100 responses, it would be unreadable - and sometimes it does its job by promoting what are actually the most compelling or funniest.
   373. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 18, 2018 at 09:17 PM (#5789068)
I clicked Fancy Pants's link and was surprised it *wasn't* an Albright.

I don't know how it became my link, and at this point, I am too afraid to ask.
   374. Spahn Insane Posted: November 18, 2018 at 10:58 PM (#5789083)
C’mon, no love for the splendid post 352?
   375. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 19, 2018 at 05:18 AM (#5789092)
Oh, and remember the talk of the BBTF app? Those were heady times. The site sucks on a mobile device.


But what would it cost Jim though to revamp the site and make an app? 100K?
   376. Hank Gillette Posted: November 19, 2018 at 06:25 AM (#5789093)
On Reddit, the "like" buttons are critical. Some threads can have hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of responses, and the comments that receive the most "likes" bump up to the top. It's a pretty damn good filter - if there weren't some way of quickly accessing the best 10 or 100 responses, it would be unreadable - and sometimes it does its job by promoting what are actually the most compelling or funniest.

But once people start reading just the posts with the most up-votes, how can any subsequent response, no matter how brilliant or thoughtful, get any traction to be noticed?
   377. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 19, 2018 at 06:29 AM (#5789095)
374: I enjoyed it.
   378. Leroy Kincaid Posted: November 19, 2018 at 06:42 AM (#5789096)
I've been here since 2005, according to my profile, but I had an account before then. Lost the password and re-registered. I'm more of a lurker, posting the occasional dopey comment. Rarely get involved in discussions since I'm largely incapable. I very rarely click the links. Hell, I often don't read the excerpt if it's more than a few lines. Come here for the comments. There are numerous smart/clever/funny posters here and I don't go to any other sports-related sites. If this place were to shut down it would likely be the end to a glorious, 20+ year career of internet baseball-forum posting.
   379. Adam Starblind Posted: November 19, 2018 at 06:50 AM (#5789098)
C’mon, no love for the splendid post 352?


You see?
   380. Rally Posted: November 19, 2018 at 07:15 AM (#5789100)
I’m fine with the site on mobile. A bit harder to comment, but that’s just due to the tiny screen and nothing Jim could do about it.

Please please, don’t add likes and stuff such as that. I can ignore a poster who is offensive or annoying, that’s enough for me. I don’t like threaded comments. Those make it so much harder to come back, see what I missed, and read where I left off. It would be annoying to see a 300+ post entry, and find that sometime after I made comment #330 someone went back to 77 and then a whole bunch of people respond. I don’t want to have to go back to page 1 when I’m used to moving on to p4 and all new comments coming in sequence.

For the most part Jim, I love the site and please keep it like it is. Totally understand about the otp decision. One change that would be nice though, is to get the game chatters off the first page, since the games posted there are from April 2014!
   381. Lassus Posted: November 19, 2018 at 07:43 AM (#5789103)
I actually haven't hadn't any mobile trouble either.
   382. McCoy Posted: November 19, 2018 at 08:12 AM (#5789104)
Trouble? No but this place isn't conducive to phones or tablets. You have to zoom in and out constantly to get around and typing something can be laborious as you have to zoom in and then move around as the screen does not follow your typing.
   383. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 19, 2018 at 08:15 AM (#5789105)
C’mon, no love for the splendid post 352?

You see?

"Ernie" knows that everyone who knew what his comment referred to appreciated it, even the person it was parodying. He doesn't need a "like" button to know that. And that was his sole target audience.

   384. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 19, 2018 at 08:38 AM (#5789106)
McCoy in order to stay sane using the site on your phone you have to type your message into an empty text message box. And then cut and paste that into BTTF. Like this.

Quoting though is a PITA.

As to the auto-login on future visits box: it doesn’t.
   385. McCoy Posted: November 19, 2018 at 08:50 AM (#5789108)
Yeah, but that is kind of insane in this day and age.
   386. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: November 19, 2018 at 08:58 AM (#5789112)
When I'm at home I use a tablet almost exclusively to use the site and it works great. The phone is a problem but I think that's a function of the size of the device.
   387. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 19, 2018 at 09:29 AM (#5789121)
Oh, and remember the talk of the BBTF app? Those were heady times. The site sucks on a mobile device.

I actually don't have a problem with using this site on mobile - like Ray said it's a smaller screen but the functionality is all there. One of my pet peeves is sites where the mobile site/app has less functionality than the website, but there's no link to the full web version when you're on your phone (or it's impossible to find).
   388. McCoy Posted: November 19, 2018 at 09:35 AM (#5789124)
What would be the full functionality of this site? For a mobile app you would need something like a swipe left to open the hot topics side bar, swipe right to remove it. A text message like prompt for posting, and a quick scroll. If search and keywords were better implemented you could do something like swipe right to open that up for use.
   389. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: November 19, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5789133)
The site doesn't need an app, it just needs a mobile-friendly (or mobile-first) design. So just a change to the HTML templates and the CSS behind them. I have no idea what the backend is so I can't really speak to how difficult it would be or what it would cost (in cash or, more likely, in Jim hours). I can imagine it being anything from a four hour job to something requiring a complete teardown and rebuild.
   390. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 19, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5789135)
What would be the full functionality of this site?

Well, maybe you wouldn't be able to send someone a message on the app.

Or, I just learned about the Stuff-->Sitewide Archives link in order to comment on articles that have been submitted but not posted to the Newsblog yet. That's exactly the kind of thing you wouldn't be able to find on a typical mobile site.

On the full site, it only takes 2 clicks to get to the latest post in the new OTP thread. ("Forums", then click on the Latest Post in the "Politics and Current Events" thread). It's very easy for me to imagine a mobile site where they "de-clutter" the pages, so now it takes 5 clicks to get there (Forums-->Primate Soapbox-->Politics and Current Events-->OTP Thread-->last post). This seems counterintuitive but websites / apps do this kind of stuff all the time.

A few real-life examples from memory:

- I previously used the Blogger mobile app -- but you couldn't post photos to your blog using the mobile app/site - you could only to do that through the full site.

- On Hotels.com, you can send calendar invites to yourself with your hotel reservation once you've booked. On the mobile site/app, you can't do that -- and there's no way to access the full site on your phone.

- When you use the American Airlines website to book a flight, you can easily see the prices of flights 2 days before or after your selected travel date. On the mobile version, you can't do that (but at least you can access the full site from your phone).

Maybe I'm unusual in that I'd much prefer to scroll around one page than have to click multiple times, wait for various pages to load, go back if I click the wrong link (which happens more often on a phone than on a PC).
   391. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 19, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5789137)
My guess is you’d need a complete teardown and rebuild — including the tedious - and costly - task of migrating 15-20 years of old content to the new site.

Actually the more I think about it 100K is probably much too low.

I also would bet that jim has looked into this and knows what the large sum of money - or massive amount of his time - would be.
   392. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 19, 2018 at 10:33 AM (#5789140)
i have no issues with using this site on a phone, provided that i'm not trying to do a series of hyperlinks. (well, i guess my autocorrect can cause issues, but that's on me)

i also suspect it would be a bad use of jim's time to do much additional development for the site, outside of maybe a little cleanup.

don't like thumbs up/down either.
   393. McCoy Posted: November 19, 2018 at 10:40 AM (#5789146)
Or, I just learned about the Stuff-->Sitewide Archives link in order to comment on articles that have been submitted but not posted to the Newsblog yet. That's exactly the kind of thing you wouldn't be able to find on a typical mobile site.


I'm not sure I understand this. Perhaps it is because there is nothing right now that qualifies as this but the archives looks like a decluttered front page that just has links to the threads.
   394. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 19, 2018 at 10:45 AM (#5789147)

I'm not sure I understand this. Perhaps it is because there is nothing right now that qualifies as this but the archives looks like a decluttered front page that just has links to the threads.


Supposedly you can see threads that are "in the queue" there and comment on them (thus bumping them to the Hot Topics bar) before they've been posted to the Newsblog.
   395. McCoy Posted: November 19, 2018 at 11:02 AM (#5789155)
It appears that you can see pending links in the site archive but it doesn't appear to me that they show up in the sidebar if you post on them. As I just tested it out and I don't see it on the sidebar.


edit: well, now I do.
   396. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 19, 2018 at 11:15 AM (#5789160)
Mobile sites are a big reason why I rarely use the internet on my phone. BBTF is one of the few exceptions to that, though I've never tried to post from the phone.
   397. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: November 19, 2018 at 11:47 AM (#5789167)
In 389 I wasn't suggesting a mobile site, but rather a responsive site that resizes content (and reorders it) based on the size of the screen. So on a phone, Hot Topics would appear below the body of comments, and probably in a font about the same size as the comments. (I.e., a size that's readable without zooming.) On a big monitor Hot Topics would be on the right side and everything would look roughly like it does right now.

Starting a new site today you'd use something (I like Skeleton) that has all of this baked in from the start. As an experiment, I cut and pasted the grid system out of Skeleton's CSS and put a nine column container at the top of the body of this page's HTML and a three column container right where it says "<!-- Begin Right Content -->" in the HTML. (And replaced the HTML xmln boilerplate with an HTML 5 statement, if that matters.) In Chrome's simulation of a phone's view, this put the Hot Topics at the bottom of the screen in a larger font than it would be in now. It's not particularly attractive, but it's better than the current mobile view.

I can and have used the site on a phone, and am generally happy with the way it looks and works. But I think the mobile presentation definitely puts off new users.
   398. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 19, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5789185)
Trouble? No but this place isn't conducive to phones or tablets.

Almost all my BBTF viewing is on my iPad. No problem at all, the same or better than when I used a desktop or laptop computer. The rare instances when I use my cell phone, the only problem is due to the rather small screen on my overdue-for-an-upgrade phone.

Just tidy up the site a bit - remove the obsolete Game Chatters, make the Newsblog more prominent than the less-trafficked areas of the site, and add some quick links to teams and other popular topics.
   399. GGC Posted: November 19, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5789213)
I'm a dinosaur. I still use desktops. Haven't had the money to do tech upgrades in quite some time.
   400. GGC Posted: November 19, 2018 at 01:42 PM (#5789216)
It's like I'm Amish but I allow pre-2006 technology.
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