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Wednesday, November 14, 2018

Sale of Baseball Prospectus

...it is our pleasure to announce that today marks the newest of the many eras of Baseball Prospectus. A group of the site’s senior staff has purchased Baseball Prospectus, effective immediately. For the first time in a long time, BP will be run by BP again. By the people who have worked to make the site what it is.

Over the coming months, we’ll be making general improvements to the site as we refocus our energies on making BP the best it can be. This is an exciting time for us, as we’ll be rolling out new projects that we’ve been working on for some time (hello, DRC!) and add some polish to make the tools we already provide more intuitive and user-friendly (goodbye, legacy stats pages!).

But while we have our own shopping list of improvements, we also want to hear from you, the subscribers and lapsed or prospective subscribers, to hear what you’d like to see us prioritize in the coming months and beyond. For that, we’d like to ask you to take the following survey, and tell us what you want BP to be, in both the short and long term.

Click through to access the survey and tell them what you want from them. Except don’t ask for forums. They’re a non-starter. All cost, no revenue.

villageidiom Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:27 AM | 463 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: above-it-all mien, baseball prospectus, player evaluation, projection

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   401. McCoy Posted: November 19, 2018 at 01:47 PM (#5789221)
flip
   402. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 19, 2018 at 02:09 PM (#5789231)
Does clicking a like button accomplish anything?


If the website is designed correctly, it means that the button stays clicked.
   403. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 19, 2018 at 02:14 PM (#5789233)
One of my pet peeves is sites where the mobile site/app has less functionality than the website, but there's no link to the full web version when you're on your phone (or it's impossible to find).


If you have an iPhone, you can force a site to load its desktop version by holding your finger down on the "reload" button in Safari until the page reloads. That requests the desktop page from the site, and probably works 90% of the time.
   404. Sunday silence Posted: November 19, 2018 at 02:16 PM (#5789234)
I am very confused. Is baseballthinkfactory owned by baseball prospectus? Otherwise I dont understand all the talk of redesigning this website and what role Jim plays etc. I swear Ive read nearly every post and still have no idea...

Im sure I am really stupid about things here but if someone can explain Id appreciate it.
   405. SoSH U at work Posted: November 19, 2018 at 02:19 PM (#5789235)
Is baseballthinkfactory owned by baseball prospectus?


No. The conversation just drifted from BPro's sale to the future of BTF, which has likely been on a lot of our minds given the decline in traffic these last few years.
   406. GGC Posted: November 19, 2018 at 02:40 PM (#5789242)
Is Aaron Gleeman still associated with BPro?
   407. . . . . . . Posted: November 19, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5789247)
Groupthink is bad enough in online communities without a ####### 'like' button to enforce it and group-censor dissenting posts.
   408. Master of the Horse Posted: November 19, 2018 at 02:54 PM (#5789252)
If people are serious and not just talking about stabilizing and possibly growing user population there needs to be a defined profile who is wanted as a user. Getting and implementing feedback from existing users has limitations because as shown in many posts here this population keeps showing even though these same users experience issues, see the flaws, etc. And comments also show it's not functionality that pushed users away but other users.

This stuff is my business so sharing what I see as fundamental errors made by founders repeatedly. You can be successful with a very niche set but those people need to pay real money. My understanding is that this group has little or no interest in this being a pay site.

Just trying to help.
   409. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 19, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5789262)
Is Aaron Gleeman still associated with BPro?


His Twitter bio says that he's editor-in-chief.
   410. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 19, 2018 at 03:12 PM (#5789263)
This stuff is my business so sharing what I see as fundamental errors made by founders repeatedly. You can be successful with a very niche set but those people need to pay real money. My understanding is that this group has little or no interest in this being a pay site.

Depends on what level of pay. BITD this site would solicit contributions, and more than a few of us donated to it. I'd have no problem contributing again to a site that wasn't terrified of political discussions as a sidebar to the baseball threads. IOW a site whose threads were monitored by less uptight people than Jim.
   411. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 19, 2018 at 03:40 PM (#5789286)
It's incredibly difficult to get suspended or banned from BBTF, although Jolly Old St. Nick apparently managed to qualify some years back. Only a very few BBTF posters have ever had such actions taken against them, based on the discussions of the subject here. The attacks on Jim & Dan (who had no role according to Jim) over the most recent OTP flap seem very much misplaced. A single poster who insisted on using ever-escalating violent eliminationist rhetoric was reportedly given a time-out. Not a crisis.
   412. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 19, 2018 at 04:19 PM (#5789309)

I am very confused. Is baseballthinkfactory owned by baseball prospectus? Otherwise I dont understand all the talk of redesigning this website and what role Jim plays etc. I swear Ive read nearly every post and still have no idea...

Jim happened to move OTP to the Forums around the same day this thread was posted, so the thread became a place for people to discuss the long-term evolution of BPro as well as BBTF.
   413. manchestermets Posted: November 19, 2018 at 06:12 PM (#5789352)
Sam frequently went OTT, but it's notable that the people criticising him here hold him to a higher standard than they do the president.
   414. Sunday silence Posted: November 19, 2018 at 06:42 PM (#5789361)
the biggest problem I see is that the site does not respond quickly to current events. People post stories that are usually one or two days old, at best, often times its several days behind. I go to Reddit in order to get up to speed on certain breaking news.

OTOH this site is great because the primates have a greater connection to one another and are more subject to peer review type of scrutiny than anonymous trolls on reddit. There's no real sense of a community where I can see the same old faces/monikers and I know where they stand.

I tried to submit two stories last year or so. One was the Bill Murray playing minor league ball but someone else posted the story ahead of me. At least I suppose so, his post came like a week after I submitted so I had almost forgotten about it when they finally posted it. The other was on testing the baseball for liveliness. Alas it never got posted. This totally turned me off from submitting stories...

perhaps if the site was organized maybe more along certain recurring sub topics. Such as AL west news; trade rumours; sabermetrics, etc. Maybe that would be a better way of organizing it so stuff would stay up to date...
   415. Sunday silence Posted: November 19, 2018 at 06:43 PM (#5789362)
Groupthink is bad enough in online communities without a ####### 'like' button to enforce it and group-censor dissenting posts


I dunno, I find systems like this to be very interesting and think of ways to tweak them. Like what if you only had 2 upvotes and 2 downvotes to spend each day? or what if you earned the right to up/down based on how often you visit? If you visit every day you get 3/3 but if every other day you only get 2/2...
   416. Brian Posted: November 19, 2018 at 07:06 PM (#5789370)
I'd have no problem contributing again to a site that wasn't terrified of political discussions as a sidebar to the baseball threads. IOW a site whose threads were monitored by less uptight people than Jim.


So you'd be willing to pay for a site that was tailored to your exact specifications and monitored precisely the way you want. Okay, good to know.
   417. villageidiom Posted: November 19, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5789381)
I tried to submit two stories last year or so. One was the Bill Murray playing minor league ball but someone else posted the story ahead of me. At least I suppose so, his post came like a week after I submitted so I had almost forgotten about it when they finally posted it. The other was on testing the baseball for liveliness. Alas it never got posted.
The second one had been submitted on July 15, and linked to a Ringer article that had already been linked here a month earlier. I'm probably the one who kept yours from being published. As mentioned before, the main thing that keeps a baseball thread from getting published is if it's a duplicate of another thread. Don't give up; you're linking to good stuff.
   418. blueshaker Posted: November 19, 2018 at 07:53 PM (#5789382)
Long time lurker here. Really, as cliched as it sounds, the lurking boils down to time constraints for me. Hate the idea of writing something and not being able to follow up due to travel/work, which is often the case. Have hardly posted anything under this persona. Never was prolific, but the most posting I've done would have been back in the rsbb days, then early Primer. Yeah, I remember Maynard and King Tut :), there has always been controversy. Used to love Primate Studies when Tango was breaking new ground.

Would hate to see this place fall by the wayside, its still a go-to for me. But as others have noted, I've noticed the lack of timing as well. When the ROY and CY awards came out I did what I have done for 15+ years: check out the reaction here...except there was no thread to read.

Anyway, here's another lurker who has heard you guys and will attempt to contribute a bit more going forward.
   419. GGC Posted: November 19, 2018 at 08:00 PM (#5789385)
I don't feel like looking it up, but if memory serves, soon after I found this site in 2001, BPro sent Jim a cease and desist letter because they felt that he was poaching visitors who might be typing "baseballpr..." into Netscape Navigator or IE and winding up at Primer instead of Prospectus. Both Jim and the BPro guys from back then knew each other from the Usenet baseball groups and Jim wrote for the competing Big Bad Baseball Annuals. I don't think that it was much a competition, because I never saw a BBBA in a store. I did buy a couple of used ones later on and I'm not sure I'd rate the early BPros over them; although I do miss support-neutral win/loss records (SNWL.) Don Malcolm had his own method of evaluating starting pitchers (QMAX) which seemed interesting and was a 2-dimensional representation of WHIP, but I never saw it peer reviewed anywhere.

Don still blogs on baseball from time to time, but his main interest is film.
   420. villageidiom Posted: November 19, 2018 at 08:25 PM (#5789397)
I don't feel like looking it up, but if memory serves, soon after I found this site in 2001, BPro sent Jim a cease and desist letter
Here you go.
   421. GGC Posted: November 19, 2018 at 08:39 PM (#5789401)
Fun factoid --- According to some fellow roadgeeks the misc.transport.roads group is still limping along.
   422. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 19, 2018 at 08:44 PM (#5789404)
I'd have no problem contributing again to a site that wasn't terrified of political discussions as a sidebar to the baseball threads. IOW a site whose threads were monitored by less uptight people than Jim.

So you'd be willing to pay for a site that was tailored to your exact specifications and monitored precisely the way you want. Okay, good to know.


All that meant was a site run by someone who didn't get his panties bunched over anonymous complaints from people who didn't have even the courage to make their complaints directly to the forum.

And note that this has nothing to do with my one time suspension. I've contributed to BTF since then.

There were people here who openly complained about Sam's comments, but none of them ever complained to Jim about him---unless, of course, they did so without informing anyone else that they were doing so, which if that was the case only shows their cowardice.

And there were people here who complained about the overall tone of the OTP threads. At times I wasn't too thrilled with many aspects of it myself. But how many of those people took their complaints to Jim? If they did, they didn't have the courage to tell anyone else about it.

The honorable way to have complained to Jim would've been to make their complaints in the form of an open letter that they openly stated they were copying Jim on. That way there would've been a chance to address their specific complaints, as well as knowing who the complainants were. Were they people who actually posted here on a regular basis? I doubt it.

What went down here---and let's be blunt---is that an unknown number of anonymous people cried to Mommy, and Mommy acted upon their complaints without giving any of the "defendants" a chance to defend themselves. The only defense of that smarmy conduct is that "It's Jim's property and he can do with it what he wants". And sure, that's the final word in the sense there's no way to change his mind, when his mind is completely closed. But that doesn't make it right.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sam frequently went OTT, but it's notable that the people criticising him here hold him to a higher standard than they do the president.

Well, not all of those who complained openly about Sam fall into that category. Sam-bashing wasn't just restricted to people who disliked his politics. But some of them, Clapper and JE in particular, held him to a standard of behavior that's about 10,000% higher than they've ever held the president.


   423. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 19, 2018 at 09:17 PM (#5789420)
There were people here who openly complained about Sam's comments, but none of them ever complained to Jim about him---unless, of course, they did so without informing anyone else that they were doing so, which if that was the case only shows their cowardice.


I thought Sam's behavior wishing cancer and chemo and miscarriages on others was ruining the site and I said so in OTP, but I never complained to Jim about it. I honestly think without Sam's behavior, OTP might have continued to exist but of course I have no way of knowing that; it boils down to several different factors, Sam being only one of them. I will note that Sam was ultimately banned/suspended/whatever, so clearly that had something significant to do with Jim's decision to shut OTP down.

I also think that if you're managing to get yourself suspended from a random website in the corner of the internet, thereby failing to live up to even the most basic and low standard of acceptable decency and behavior, clearly you're not helping.
   424. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 19, 2018 at 09:19 PM (#5789423)
But some of them, Clapper and JE in particular, held him to a standard of behavior that's about 10,000% higher than they've ever held the president.


I honestly don't see how one has to do with the other.
   425. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 19, 2018 at 10:26 PM (#5789436)
Sam frequently went OTT, but it's notable that the people criticising him here hold him to a higher standard than they do the president.

Well, not all of those who complained openly about Sam fall into that category. Sam-bashing wasn't just restricted to people who disliked his politics. But some of them, Clapper and JE in particular, held him to a standard of behavior that's about 10,000% higher than they've ever held the president.

Not to go into OTP-mode, but I, of course, didn't hold Sam to any standard, just noted that he wasn't capable of posting anything of substance in the OTP thread, and had, among other things, repeatedly wished that people he disagreed with develop cancer, have their children die, or murder their family & committ suicide, mixed in with the occasional attack on posters wives, to name but a few of his themes. I thought Sam be-clowned himself with such posts, and said so on occasion. AFAIK, the President has done none of those things, but if he were to do so, Jim can suspend him, too, for all I care.
   426. McCoy Posted: November 19, 2018 at 10:38 PM (#5789439)
If only Twitter and Facebook had felt the same way
   427. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 19, 2018 at 10:51 PM (#5789442)
I thought Sam's behavior wishing cancer and chemo and miscarriages on others was ruining the site and I said so in OTP, but I never complained to Jim about it.

Of course you didn't. We've disagreed on a million things, but I've never thought of you as underhanded.

I honestly think without Sam's behavior, OTP might have continued to exist but of course I have no way of knowing that; it boils down to several different factors, Sam being only one of them. I will note that Sam was ultimately banned/suspended/whatever, so clearly that had something significant to do with Jim's decision to shut OTP down.

Jim shut down OTP for reasons of his own that he's explained only with vague references about people complaining about it. But suspending Sam while letting Dan's vile comment directed at McCoy slide makes it pretty clear that more (or less) went into that decision than he seems prepared to admit.

I also think that if you're managing to get yourself suspended from a random website in the corner of the internet, thereby failing to live up to even the most basic and low standard of acceptable decency and behavior, clearly you're not helping

Sam was hardly the only person here who violated what some (or many) people would consider PG-13 standards of commentary, but somehow he was the only specific person to be sanctioned.
   428. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 19, 2018 at 10:58 PM (#5789443)
But suspending Sam while letting Dan's vile comment directed at McCoy slide makes it pretty clear that more (or less) went into that decision than he seems prepared to admit.

Quite telling that you're a million times more offended about a variant of the "shove ______ up your butt" trope made towards McCoy than McCoy is. And that you think it's comparable to an actual threat of violence.

I said I'd make more of an effort to be civil, but don't get me wrong, I have zero respect for you as a person and this type of nonsense is one of the hundred or so reasons why. And unlike with McCoy, I am 0% sorry for anything I've ever said to you, my only regret is that it has contributed to the poor environment in OTP threads for others.
   429. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 19, 2018 at 11:01 PM (#5789445)
I don't know or care about whatever Dan had to say in #428, but unlike Sam, at least he has a chance to say something.
   430. . . . . . . Posted: November 19, 2018 at 11:28 PM (#5789454)
Jesus Christ guys; it’s the internet. Let the other guy be wrong.
   431. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: November 20, 2018 at 12:59 AM (#5789474)
Now I remember why it felt so necessary to cordon you guys off into an OT thread. That you guys continually log on just to scream in type day after day at people you despise says a lot about everyone who stayed active in that group. I'm ashamed of the time I spent there and left years before did. I wish I didn't know that side of any of you people.

OTP is dead. Stop trying to revive it here.
   432. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 20, 2018 at 02:36 AM (#5789478)
I don't know or care about whatever Dan had to say in #428, but unlike Sam, at least he has a chance to say something.

You're quite obsessed about what I say for someone who does not care about what I say.
   433. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 20, 2018 at 03:29 AM (#5789479)

“Jim shut down OTP for reasons of his own that he's explained only with vague references about people complaining about it. But suspending Sam while letting Dan's vile comment directed at McCoy slide makes it pretty clear that more (or less) went into that decision than he seems prepared to admit.”

You keep trying to equate Dan with Sam, which is frivolous.
   434. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: November 20, 2018 at 03:29 AM (#5789480)
There is A LOT going on in this thread. Tons of comments I'm inclined to respond to.

But only one thing is important.

If you're not attracting new users, nothing else matters.

All the talk about UI and mobile UX and all that - doesn't move the needle one iota if all we're talking about is attending to the preferences of the thousand or so of us that still 'click on' this site. And, as much as I hate to say it (I'm in the same boat as a lot of lurker/posters in this thread, I've been coming here as my primary source of baseball analysis for going on, I don't know, 15 years? I comment a lot for a non-regular but not much of substance), this site is not attracting new users, and is not going to. When was the last time you saw a comment from a poster you hadn't seen before?

We're all just enjoying what's left of the death spiral - not that there's anything wrong with that - and to believe otherwise is to fool yourself.
   435. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 20, 2018 at 04:06 AM (#5789483)
No, a bit part of the UI talk is about attracting new users. Obviously that in itself is not sufficient. But first impressions matter a lot. If your first impression is that the site looks ugly, stuck in the past, is difficult to navigate and find what you are looking for, and generally stuck in web 1.0 in a world where 2.0 is incredibly out-dated... well you are unlikely to stick around long enough to discover the things that make all of us come back here.
   436. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 20, 2018 at 06:26 AM (#5789486)
I don't feel like looking it up, but if memory serves, soon after I found this site in 2001, BPro sent Jim a cease and desist letter

Here you go.


Hahahahaha! I mean legit LOL. Some ####### people and their whore lawyers.
   437. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 20, 2018 at 06:27 AM (#5789487)
But some of them, Clapper and JE in particular, held him to a standard of behavior that's about 10,000% higher than they've ever held the president.

I honestly don't see how one has to do with the other.


Swell, add it to the list of things you don’t understand.
   438. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 20, 2018 at 06:54 AM (#5789488)
But suspending Sam while letting Dan's vile comment directed at McCoy slide makes it pretty clear that more (or less) went into that decision than he seems prepared to admit.

Quite telling that you're a million times more offended about a variant of the "shove ______ up your butt" trope made towards McCoy than McCoy is. And that you think it's comparable to an actual threat of violence.


But wasn’t that comment meant for someone else? Did you go ahead and redirect it to the appropriate party?
   439. Sunday silence Posted: November 20, 2018 at 07:39 AM (#5789491)
The second one had been submitted on July 15, and linked to a Ringer article that had already been linked here a month earlier. I'm probably the one who kept yours from being published. As mentioned before, the main thing that keeps a baseball thread from getting published is if it's a duplicate of another thread. Don't give up


Oh gee, I didnt realize that. thanks for explaining all that, that helps..
   440. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 20, 2018 at 07:46 AM (#5789492)
Jesus Christ guys; it’s the internet. Let the other guy be wrong.

Exactly my point. If only Jim agreed with it.
   441. McCoy Posted: November 20, 2018 at 07:59 AM (#5789493)
Then be your point.
   442. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 20, 2018 at 07:59 AM (#5789494)
But suspending Sam while letting Dan's vile comment directed at McCoy slide makes it pretty clear that more (or less) went into that decision than he seems prepared to admit.

Quite telling that you're a million times more offended about a variant of the "shove ______ up your butt" trope made towards McCoy than McCoy is. And that you think it's comparable to an actual threat of violence.


Neither Sam nor Dan have ever had any intention whatever of following up on their threats or wishes, and if anyone believes otherwise he's seriously stupid. And I'm not "offended" by either of their comments to the point of wanting either of them silenced. Whether you deem the rhetoric one or the other of them to be worse is purely a subjective matter, and you're entitled to your opinion of that as much as anyone else here. AFAIC the sort of trolling and passive aggression that some Primates engage in is far more corrosive to real discussions than the occasional rhetorical outburst, but the best remedy for those people is the same remedy that's available to anyone who doesn't like what Sam or Dan write: The Ignore feature.
   443. Biscuit_pants Posted: November 20, 2018 at 09:24 AM (#5789516)
Neither Sam nor Dan have ever had any intention whatever of following up on their threats or wishes, and if anyone believes otherwise he's seriously stupid. And I'm not "offended" by either of their comments to the point of wanting either of them silenced. Whether you deem the rhetoric one or the other of them to be worse is purely a subjective matter, and you're entitled to your opinion of that as much as anyone else here. AFAIC the sort of trolling and passive aggression that some Primates engage in is far more corrosive to real discussions than the occasional rhetorical outburst, but the best remedy for those people is the same remedy that's available to anyone who doesn't like what Sam or Dan write: The Ignore feature.


Couple of things. First to make sure the conversation does not head this way, I never complained to Jim about Sam and addressed Sam directly about his hate.

Second you keep telling people to put someone on ignore, if you are new to a site you don't register and then say, "I wonder what they are talking about", you lurk, you click through, and you cannot have someone on ignore unless you sign in. So ignore only works when you are already engaged, not when you are trying to attract new people.

The absolute hate that Sam spread every day was enough to make people leave or not join. You say there is no harm in what he said because you don't believe his actions would mirror his words, I have no idea why you would say something like this. If you typed what he said and changed the names there was absolutely no difference between Sam and a Klansman, or Nazi, or any other hate group you can think of. Why would anyone, who was already not going to this site out of pure habit ever want to wade into a discussion in which someone like him was allowed to squash any dissenting opinion in the manor in which he did.

I cannot believe you are defending his hate
   444. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5789544)
Neither Sam nor Dan have ever had any intention whatever of following up on their threats or wishes

Once again, grouping me with Sam is fundamentally dishonest. While I'm certainly not always nice, only a real sociopath wouldn't understand that telling someone you hope their wife miscarries or wanting to desecrate Mormon graves or that you hope someone's children decease them so that the person has to mourn them is a very different category than telling someone to #### off or suggesting that you're senile and/or stupid.
   445. PreservedFish Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:17 AM (#5789550)
Worst flamewar ever.
   446. Ziggy's screen name Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:21 AM (#5789551)
This is my favorite part of that old cease-and-desist thread:

Text of the letter in PDF format (704 KB) may take a minute or two


Also, the OTP threads were just more internet sewage. The internet is full of that stuff. It's not what makes this site valuable, the baseball content is. If you feel the need to talk about something else, take it to websites that are dedicated to it. (There are plenty of them.).
   447. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:23 AM (#5789554)

Sam frequently went OTT, but it's notable that the people criticising him here hold him to a higher standard than they do the president.

I don't think the that's true or that comparison is relevant. And I am about as far from a Trump supporter as you'll find.

Like I said at the time, I've always interpreted Sam's comments as shtick and never complained about him because it wasn't directed at me, and the people who it was directed at had a much longer history with him. But as several posters including lurkers have spoken up saying they found the comments offensive / intimidating / drove them away from OTP or the overall site, I think suspending him was the right course of action and should have been taken sooner.

DJS was caustic towards McCoy, but it was nothing like what Sam regularly wrote, and he actually apologized afterwards. It was run-of-the-mill internet vitriol and I don't understand why people keep bringing it up (I mentioned it earlier because I thought DJS had also nuked the OTP thread, but I was wrong about that and retracted the claim).

I don't really understand why Andy keeps antagonizing Jim and DJS here. It's poor form and counterproductive. I don't think Jim is owed any special deference, but we are guests on a site that he maintains basically in his spare time, so some common courtesy would be appropriate.
   448. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:25 AM (#5789556)
DJS was caustic towards McCoy, but it was nothing like what Sam regularly wrote, and he actually apologized afterwards.


He didn’t apologize because what he wrote was obnoxious, he apologized because McCoy wasn’t the original author of the comment he objected to.
   449. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5789558)
He didn’t apologize because what he wrote was obnoxious, he apologized because McCoy wasn’t the original author of the comment he objected to.

I'll let DJS respond to this, but I thought he responded to McCoy's post not realizing that it was a parody of something Ray had written earlier. There was no "original author of the comment".
   450. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:39 AM (#5789566)
Couple of things. First to make sure the conversation does not head this way, I never complained to Jim about Sam and addressed Sam directly about his hate.

Fair enough, though in your case I never would've thought that you'd go to Jim without informing the rest of us.

Second you keep telling people to put someone on ignore, if you are new to a site you don't register and then say, "I wonder what they are talking about", you lurk, you click through, and you cannot have someone on ignore unless you sign in. So ignore only works when you are already engaged, not when you are trying to attract new people.

That's a reasonable point, though (1) The OTP thread was but 1 of 15 featured on Hot Topics; (2) Sam was but one of many, many people commenting on it; and (3) Sam's threats in reality weren't really all that great in number. A person who was genuinely interesting in joining the baseball conversations could've gone to those threads, had their interest piqued, joined up, and then been able to use the Ignore feature if he wanted to avoid polarizing comments from any Primate, including Sam.

The absolute hate that Sam spread every day was enough to make people leave or not join. You say there is no harm in what he said because you don't believe his actions would mirror his words, I have no idea why you would say something like this. If you typed what he said and changed the names there was absolutely no difference between Sam and a Klansman, or Nazi, or any other hate group you can think of. Why would anyone, who was already not going to this site out of pure habit ever want to wade into a discussion in which someone like him was allowed to squash any dissenting opinion in the manor in which he did.

Just how did Sam's comments "squash any dissenting opinion" any more than David's withering sarcasm, Ray's constant labeling of disagreement as "dishonest", Gonfalon's or my own frequently condescending mockery, Dan's violent imagery and personal attacks, SBB's tiresome trolling, and so on? You could've had Sam kept off BTF 15 years ago and never let him back, and the overall tone of OTP wouldn't have budged an inch. Don't make Sam into something much bigger than he was in reality.

And spare me the Klansman or Nazi comparisons. Sam wasn't directing his comments against people with inborn characteristics caused by accidents of birth, such as where they were born or the "culture" they grew up in.

I cannot believe you are defending his hate.

I'm defending Sam's right to be here, just as I'd defend the similar right of Primates whose views I find infinitely more loathsome than his.
   451. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:42 AM (#5789569)
Worst flamewar ever.

Never heard of that word before.
   452. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5789571)
If I go to a message board and the most active thread has people flinging around all the hatred and nastiness that I see in OTP then I assume that's what the board is all about. Jim has done the right thing IMHO to try and keep the tone of BTF positive and courteous. There are plenty of places on the internet you can go to shriek and insult people and I for one am glad that BTF is, for the most part, devoid of that.

Andy, this is a BASEBALL site. If it is not providing you the outlet for political discussion may I suggest you go to a politics message board. It's possible that might be more your thing.
   453. Master of the Horse Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5789575)
I mentioned this weirdness (agree on worst flamewar comment--hilarious!) to a guy in my neighborhood and he texted me this youtube that I think the old timers here will get
   454. Brian Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5789576)
or wanting to desecrate Mormon graves


Sam wasn't directing his comments against people with inborn characteristics caused by accidents of birth, such as where they were born or the "culture" they grew up in.


Andy, Sam seems to have violated even the bespoke designed definition of offensive that you, for whatever reason, have created for him. I also like that you find others views "infinitely more loathsome" than someone who wishes a poster's children to die. Stay classy Andy.
   455. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5789577)
I don't really understand why Andy keeps antagonizing Jim and DJS here. It's poor form and counterproductive. I don't think Jim is owed any special deference, but we are guests on a site that he maintains basically in his spare time, so some common courtesy would be appropriate.

I've contributed money to Jim's site on more than one occasion, so it's not as if I'm unappreciative of what he's done in providing us with these forums. That doesn't mean I can't express my profound disagreement with what he's just done with the OTP threads.

As for Dan, he may provide some useful baseball information, but his OTP comments have been nasty and vitriolic since Day One. I can't say that I didn't often respond in kind, but then once again, I've never called for banning him. The Ignore feature is more than sufficient to deal with him or anyone else, including Sam for those he offends.
   456. Biscuit_pants Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:52 AM (#5789578)
And spare me the Klansman or Nazi comparisons. Sam wasn't directing his comments against people with inborn characteristics caused by accidents of birth, such as where they were born or the "culture" they grew up in.
Hate is hate. I don't know why it would matter more if it was against people with inborn characteristics cause by accidents of birth. It was unacceptable, even if I agreed with him on topic, his methods and language where consistent with a hate group.

You could've had Sam kept off BTF 15 years ago and never let him back, and the overall tone of OTP wouldn't have budged an inch.
I disagree, but have no way of proving it, so you could be right.


I'm defending Sam's right to be here, just as I'd defend the similar right of Primates whose views I find infinitely more loathsome than his.
I believe you. You have blind spots on topics and people for sure but I have never seen you call for anyone's banning.
   457. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:55 AM (#5789579)
Andy, this is a BASEBALL site. If it is not providing you the outlet for political discussion may I suggest you go to a politics message board. It's possible that might be more your thing.

I've almost certainly made over 20,000 baseball related comments over the years. I'll put my lifelong interest in baseball up against you or just about anyone else here. But why is it a binary choice between baseball and anything else?
   458. Buck Coats Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:56 AM (#5789580)
Did the forum OTP thread get nuked too? I can't find it anymore?
   459. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:57 AM (#5789581)
Because the political discussions get nasty in a way that others don't. Clearly that's not the kind of site Jim wants and since he does this in his spare time free of charge I think we all have an obligation to respect that. If you want to discuss politics like a grown up, knock yourself out. Unfortunately it is clear that that is not possible so Jim has eliminated the OTP thread. I'm glad he's done that.
   460. Master of the Horse Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:58 AM (#5789583)
I disagree, but have no way of proving it, so you could be right

Fair amount of research shows that internet actions are very subject to the '### for tat' mode that without mods can escalate fast. If you crush it early only happens when new users show and ignore guidelines. So the suggestion is way wrong.
   461. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:58 AM (#5789584)
   462. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 20, 2018 at 10:59 AM (#5789586)
I'll let DJS respond to this, but I thought he responded to McCoy's post not realizing that it was a parody of something Ray had written earlier. There was no "original author of the comment".

For those that weren't there, there was a discussion of younger voters and I mentioned that I foggily remembered some article in the Washington Post from around 2012 that had the weird result of the 18-29 cohort going strongly for Obama, but Romney actually winning the 18-year-olds and 19-year-olds. In reply, I saw a response of McCoy calling me a liar, saying that I actually remembered no such thing. So I suggested he shove a railroad spike up a certain sensitive orifice and threw in a ####. I later found the article I had half-remembered (the cable company was doing some work on my street and I was on my phone, so hadn't Googled up the article I was referring to for a few hours).

What I hadn't realized at the time was that McCoy was just memeing a Ray post that I had not seen and it was intended as a joke. Now, I get no points for being intemperate and vulgar in this matter with a person I've never had an issue with before, but I *did* apologize as soon as I realized what I had done and thinking your honesty is being called into question by someone you respect is at least a slight mitigating factor.

And the fact is, I do have to watch my temper. I absorb insults in far more public fashion all day, every day, whether nasty comments about what I look like on Twitter to the occasional article or blog. While that's usually not a problem, there is a certain amount of buildup that will sometimes get me lashing-out verbally if I'm poked in just the right way. Not an excuse, just an underlying reason; I was unfair, bad-tempered, and vulgar to McCoy in this situation and as I've reiterated to him, that's 100% on me.

I did not remove my nastygram to McCoy or ask Jim to do it. I did not close the thread or ask Jim to do it. Nor did McCoy ask for anything to be removed. But now my comment to McCoy is Andy's opportunity to play Ahab (since Andy calls me Lard Lad and has said he can't wait for my heart attack while eating donuts, I think the white whale image is curiously fitting) on McCoy's behalf.

(McCoy or Dave or PepTech are obviously free to speak up if I've misrepresented any of the events here)
   463. villageidiom Posted: November 20, 2018 at 11:02 AM (#5789587)
OK, I'm closing this thread. Here are my closing comments:

1. My decision. Not Jim, not Szym. Me. I've not even informed any other admins that I'm closing it. Normally I wouldn't close a thread - it's not my site - but I consider it within my rights as the one who opened this thread in the first place.

2. I am closing it because I feel that all points have been made, and are now simply being repeated except with diminishing decorum. That doesn't describe all the posts, and I appreciate those who are not contributing to the thread's devolution. Still, I'm not seeing much progress, and I don't intend for this thread to become OTP-by-another-name.

3. The TOS says that comments may be deleted for the obvious reasons, as well as if the comment "really does nothing to move the conversation forward". I am not deleting comments, but I see no reason to continue to allow comments in this thread if the conversation isn't moving forward.

4. If people are genuinely interested in moving the conversation forward about improving this community, I've set up a forum thread for that purpose. If you have specific feedback for specific people I suggest you bring that feedback to them directly. Lastly, if you wish to give feedback - positive or negative - to site administration about what I have done here I encourage you to do so. I am a volunteer for this site and trying to be a good steward while also trying not to overstep my role as an editor, but I know even the best of intentions can have the worst of consequences.
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