(snicker)

well this should make the braves and the nats happy.

Podsednik and Pierre on the same roster?

I can't wait. The BBTF threads are going to be epic.

“They’ll be battling,” Amaro said.

As long as they're not batting.

I don't see the problem with this move-- not like they're paying him much, and he does have his uses. I'm not sure what else Brown has to learn in the minors.

Pierre is in reach of Ty Cobb, who is fourth all time on the caught stealing list. Brett Butler (3) is probably out of reach, and Lou Brock (2) and Rickey Henderson (1) are way ahead.

Actually, I guess this is the all time caught stealing list since whenever it was that caught stealings began to get recorded. Ty Cobb's CS numbers are spotty, so he's probably well out of Pierre's reach.

The stronger the snark in this thread, the better the odds of Juan Pierre: World Series MVP 2012.

Wouldn't Pierre be a perfectly good 5th OFer/pinch runner? Any chance the Phils are going to use him that way?

The bigger news here -- an NRI and 'battling for the 5th OF spot' means 3000 hits looks increasingly undoable.

Don't forget - he's got 2020, and had 178 last year.... at age 33, you have to admit you were at least a little bit nervous.

Seriously? Dom Brown needs more seasoning? At the expense of at-bats by Juan Pierre or Scotty Pods? I think Ruben has officially lost his mind.

Yes, signing MLB vets to minor-league contracts with spring training invitations is a completely nutso move. Nuts. Crazy I tell ya!

he's got 2020, and had 178 last year

he'd have to avg. 140/yr for the next 7 yrs. ... tall order, no?

About Pierre, how often does a guy who has started 150 games per year in the previous two years take an NRI?

he'd have to avg. 140/yr for the next 7 yrs. ... tall order, no?

Or he'd have to average 185 hits a year for 5 years. Now, that is still pretty damn unlikely but Pierre's 2010 and 2011 hit totals were 179 and 178. It isn't out of the realm of the possibility that a guy could continue to his current level of hits per year (and get a few extra bloop singles to fall in) for 5 years. Still really unlikely, especially for an aging speedster, but possible.

I can't wait for the 2023 "Juan Pierre for HOF?" internet shitshow.

Don't forget - he's got 2020, and had 178 last year.... at age 33, you have to admit you were at least a little bit nervous.

"Nervous?" Why the hell wouldn't I want him to get there? Would be awesome.

While the Phillies are stockpiling toasted White Sox outfielders, perhaps Kenny Williams can interest Amaro in an Alex Rios? He's much younger than Pods or Pierre!

About Pierre, how often does a guy who has started 150 games per year in the previous two years take an NRI?

That is pretty strange (I would think anyway.) I wonder if he had some minimum offers but simply decided he wanted to go to Philly instead, or if there was just nobody that wanted him.

That is pretty strange (I would think anyway.) I wonder if he had some minimum offers but simply decided he wanted to go to Philly instead, or if there was just nobody that wanted him.

IIRC, Podsednik was in a similar situation after 2010.

Seriously? Dom Brown needs more seasoning? At the expense of at-bats by Juan Pierre or Scotty Pods? I think Ruben has officially lost his mind.

Brown won't be losing at-bats to the 5th outfielder, whoever it ends up being, because there's no point in having him sit on the bench in Philadelphia. He'll compete for a starting spot if/when he's ready.

Yeah, Scotty Pods declined his share of a mutual option with the Dodgers after 2010. And Amaro's not an idiot for signing Pods or Pierre to a NRI, he's an idiot for screwing up Dominick Brown's development into a MLB hitter. He could have done three things to Brown, play him and see if he can belong in Major League Baseball, trade him for something else, or stash him in minors and retard his growth. He picked the 3rd option and should be scorned for it.

Wouldn't Pierre be a perfectly good 5th OFer/pinch runner?

Yes. He has obvious baseball skills - he's fast, probably a very good baserunner, I think he's a pretty good bunter, he can play a non-embarrassing CF. He also has obvious weaknesses that make him a lousy choice as a starter - no power, a noodle arm.

Any chance the Phils are going to use him that way?

The excerpt seems to suggest that's exactly what he's going to be. Both Pierre and Jim Thome do strike me as perhaps a little too limited to be the optimal use of a roster spot, especially in the NL, where you'd like to be able to PH with your 3rd or 4th guy off the bench if necessary (a sub-optimal use for Pierre) and double-switch with your pinch-hitters if necessary (ditto for Thome). Maybe they'll do it by going with only an 11-man pitching staff?

He could have done three things to Brown, play him and see if he can belong in Major League Baseball, trade him for something else, or stash him in minors and retard his growth. He picked the 3rd option and should be scorned for it.

in fairness, brown went into spring training last year as the starting RFer. he wasn't competing for the spot, it was his.

but he played like #### in spring training, broke his hand (or his wrist) and was taken out of action for 6 weeks. when he came back, he still couldn't hit, and on top of it, he completely forgot how to track the ball in the air and became an absolute disaster in the field.



this isn't on ruben amaro. trading brown last offseason may turn out to have been the best option for everyone involved, but i don't think amaro should get any blame for what's happened with brown (outside of leaving him off the postseason roster, in favor of john bowker and ross gload). it just is what it is.

Podsednik and Pierre on the same roster?

Somewhere Lloyd McClendon is slobbering uncontrollably.

when he came back, he still couldn't hit, and on top of it, he completely forgot how to track the ball in the air and became an absolute disaster in the field.

Wasn't there a stretch where he was on the bench with Francisco starting in front of him? I thought this was not a good use of the playing time.

On those late summer nights when the weather is cool and the moon is just right, you can be transported back to that time and place when Scott Podsednik was the catalyst for that White Sox championship team.

Then a cloud passes over the moon, the breeze turns from warm to hot and humid, and its all gone again.

On those late summer nights when the weather is cool and the moon is just right, you can be transported back to that time and place when Scott Podsednik was the catalyst put up an 86 OPS+ for that White Sox championship team.

FTFY.

Pierre and Podsednik will create a little spring drama by competing for the fifth outfielder’s job.

About as much drama as a Bobby Heenan vs. Jimmy Hart grudge match.

Can Pierre still play a passable CF? If so, he's perfectly cromulent as a 5th OF. And he does have a rep as a hard worker and being good in the clubhouse.

And he can't really be worse than Tony Campana can he?

"Nervous?" Why the hell wouldn't I want him to get there? Would be awesome.

Cuz voters are stupid and we'd have to hear silly HOF arguments for 15 years if he did. Especially cuz Pierre would get bonus points for being "clean" (i.e. didn't hit lots of homers).

While I think it would be ridiculous for a clearly unworthy player to get HOF consideration cuz of a milestone, I have always liked the fact that everyone who hit certain milestones just happened to be worthy, making these milestones appear to be automatic HOF tickets (unless you bet on games or are confirmed, suspected, or imagined steroid users).

So I'm rooting against Pierre, Damon, and Michael Young reaching 3000 hits, as well as Konerko and Dunn hitting 500 dingers.

he'd have to avg. 140/yr for the next 7 yrs. ... tall order, no?

Or he'd have to average 185 hits a year for 5 years. Now, that is still pretty damn unlikely but Pierre's 2010 and 2011 hit totals were 179 and 178. It isn't out of the realm of the possibility that a guy could continue to his current level of hits per year (and get a few extra bloop singles to fall in) for 5 years. Still really unlikely, especially for an aging speedster, but possible.

I can't wait for the 2023 "Juan Pierre for HOF?" internet shitshow.

Pierre's too far away, but I'd love to see some team with no hope of competing for the next five years sign a guy like, say, Damon to the minimum for three years on the condition that he hits .250 or better each year, and is never any worse than .220 for a month. In return he gets to start regularly until he reaches 3,000 hits.

Pierre's too far away, but I'd love to see some team with no hope of competing for the next five years sign a guy like, say, Damon to the minimum for three years on the condition that he hits .250 or better each year, and is never any worse than .220 for a month. In return he gets to start regularly until he reaches 3,000 hits.

Do you think Damon is worthy of the HOF? Cuz that might happen if he gets 3000.

About as much drama as a Bobby Heenan vs. Jimmy Hart grudge match

That's no contest, Heenan could legit work in the ring.

Cuz voters are stupid and we'd have to hear silly HOF arguments for 15 years if he did. Especially cuz Pierre would get bonus points for being "clean" (i.e. didn't hit lots of homers).

No, we'd hear it for one. Regardless whether he reaches 3,000 hits (which, obviously, has zero chance of happening), JP would not be long for the ballot. There are no automatic numbers, and particularly not for anyone as nondescript as JP. Same goes for Konerko. He's not coming anywhere near Cooperstown even if he had 500 of the cleanest homers you could imagine.

The other guys, depending how the rest of their careers played out, could/would hang around the ballot longer.

No, we'd hear it for one. Regardless whether he reaches 3,000 hits (which, obviously, has zero chance of happening), JP would not be long for the ballot. There are no automatic numbers, and particularly not for anyone as nondescript as JP. Same goes for Konerko. He's not coming anywhere near Cooperstown even if he had 500 of the cleanest homers you could imagine.

If you're hearing HOF arguments at all, then it's probably enough to keep someone on the ballot. I know that Pierre and Konerko would never come close to election even with 3000 hits or 500 homers. It just wouldn't surprise me if that alone would be enough to keep them on the ballot. Mattingly, Murphy, Garvey, etc, are never going to come close to election either but they got enough support to stick around. I could see JP with 3000 hits and PK with 500 homers hanging around 10% for 15 years.

Pierre's too far away, but I'd love to see some team with no hope of competing for the next five years sign a guy like, say, Damon to the minimum for three years on the condition that he hits .250 or better each year, and is never any worse than .220 for a month. In return he gets to start regularly until he reaches 3,000 hits.

Do you think Damon is worthy of the HOF? Cuz that might happen if he gets 3000.

Not because of 3,000 hits, assuming he gets there, but on a recent thread we looked at Damon's other numbers if he gets to 3 grand, and they start to close in on awesome. I'll have to go from memory, but iirc 1800 runs, something like 2750 games played, 12,000 games played, 575 doubles. BUT, even though I think he has a shot at 60 WAR, his complete lack of peak just doesn't do it for me. He's the position player equivalent of Jack Morris, your quintessential durable 3rd starter, and the longer I stick around and think about baseball, the more I lean towards being a peak voter. I don't think I'd have to give it a whole lot of consideration. There's a point at which longevity stops being meaningful in adding to a player's case. That's Damon.

You? Would you put Damon in?

edit: anyone with 500 hrs or 3000 hits who doesn't have a ped taint will stay on the ballot for 15 years. It only takes two dozen or so voters to keep you on. Heck, as long as I didn't think he'd actually get in I might throw Pierre a vote every year if he staggered to the finish line. It deserves some kind of recognition.

Huh--to be consistent I guess I'd have to vote no on Damon even if he managed to get to 3,300, 3,400, even 3,500 hits. I wonder who the first miracle player who finds a way to stick around as a regular until 45 with an OPS+ of 105 is going to be. We've already had a couple of pitching versions of that player. What with the race to develop new and better PEDs and the amount of money there is in the game it's going to happen eventually.

I know I'm kind of late to the party, but Pierre has been very durable in his career. He went 5 seasons without missing a single game (including one in which he played every single inning for the Marlins in CF). He only missed time with injury in 2008. He has a history of batting leadoff and rarely walking. He was the fourth outfielder for the Dodgers 2 of the last 9 years; the other 7 he's had at least 650 ABs. 140 hits a year for 7 years would only require hitting .214 if he got 650 ABs/yr. He'd only need to hit .251 to get there in 6 years.

The problem for Pierre and getting to 3000 hits is simply that he won't be getting playing time. He is certainly on track for it if he kept getting his current usage.

I wouldn't assume Pierre can play CF. Guillen loved him, and stuck him in LF.

Edit: also note the precipitous drop in steals and steal attempts.

I made this prediction 2 years ago and I still believe in it. Domonic Brown will be one of the great flops of this era. The only Alderson move I agreed with was not getting stuck with him.

MCGriff has something like 496 homers, and I don't think there's any talk about him as a serious candidate. But then, he doesn't have 500 and that extra 4 really matters when fetishize round numbers.

Domonic Brown will be one of the great flops of this era.

I have a hard time calling a 20th round pick a great flop. Delmon Young, now there's a great flop. Brian Bullington, Matt Bush, Luke Hochevar. 4 of the last 9 #1 picks, and they have combined for a whopping 0.5 career WAR.

You? Would you put Damon in?

No, I wouldn't. Even though I'd be more of a career rather than peak voter (I tend to think guys like Palmeiro and McGriff are underrated around here), a player has to do more than just show up for a long time to get my hypothetical vote. So no on Damon, Morris, Vizquel, etc. Not even close on any of them, actually.

MCGriff has something like 496 homers, and I don't think there's any talk about him as a serious candidate. But then, he doesn't have 500 and that extra 4 really matters when fetishize round numbers.

He's got 493, and while he's not close to election, he's hovering in the 20% range, so he's not in immediate danger of falling off the ballot, either. I doubt he'd be in already if he'd had 500, but it wouldn't surprise me if his vote total was at least double what it is now. I think the problem with him is that A) Most of his peak (1988-1994) came in a much lower offensive environment and people don't properly adjust for that so they don't understand just how great it was, and B) He's being compared to guys like McGwire (583 homers, 8 seasons higher than McGriff's high) and Palmeiro (569 homers, 9 seasons higher than McGriff's high). And that seems unfair to me, since the voters are basically double penalizing for the steroid era. They're not elected the roiders like Mac and Raffy, but they're still using their numbers to compare the "clean" players to and finding guys like McGriff a little short because of it. It's BS.

I made this prediction 2 years ago and I still believe in it. Domonic Brown will be one of the great flops of this era. The only Alderson move I agreed with was not getting stuck with him.

Unfortunately if this comes to pass, you will not be vindicated since everybody will blame it on Ruben Amaro's hideous stupidity instead of Domonic Brown's flaws.

Domonic Brown will be one of the great flops of this era.

Worse than Kyle Drabek?

While I think it would be ridiculous for a clearly unworthy player to get HOF consideration cuz of a milestone, I have always liked the fact that everyone who hit certain milestones just happened to be worthy

You have a different opinion of Lou Brock than I do.

And the HR milestone has almost certainly moved after the sillyball era ... and/or it will stay where it is and the sillyball era will be completely ignored.

But 3,000 hits is still 3,000 hits.

The problem for Pierre and getting to 3000 hits is simply that he won't be getting playing time. He is certainly on track for it if he kept getting his current usage.

Which has been true of probably dozens of guys in MLB history. Yes, the problem almost any player has in reaching a milestone is not losing his skills as he ages.

Worse than Kyle Drabek?

Of the first 30 players taken in the 2006 draft (everyone before the supplemental phase), 8 have failed to make the majors. The #9 pick batted .227 in AA ball last year. The 12th pick sported a 7.05 ERA in A ball. The 22nd pick was out of baseball after a 9.49 ERA in A ball in 2010. The 23rd pick last played in 2008. The 24th pick batted .226 in AA. The 26th pick did OK as a AA reliever, but he's already 25. The 27th pick batted .148 in AA. The 29th pick is 27years old, and had an ERA over 5 in AA and AA last year.

Then there's the #6 pick who has a spiffy -4.8 MLB career WAR, or the #2 pick with a career 62 ERA+ so far to go along with his AAA ERA of 6.81 last year. Or the #4 pick, a 27 year old with a career 69 ERA+ in 100 IP. And of course the # 1 pick, who's MLB stat line is 30-43 585 IP ERA+ 81.

There's a lot between Kyle Drabek and the greatest flop of the 2006 draft. And even more between Brown and Drabek.

But 3,000 hits is still 3,000 hits.

Until Damon gets there. If Beltre stays healthy, he could clear 3000 hits by a lot. Michael Young could even get there.

About Pierre, how often does a guy who has started 150 games per year in the previous two years take an NRI?

first thing that popped into my mind also. It's hard for me to imagine he couldn't find a job as a veteran on a crappy team of youngsters. All reports has him as a tremendous clubhouse presence. A fourth outfielder on the Pirates, Nats or even the Mariners, I imagine would give him plenty of playing time, and probably get him a guaranteed job.

There's a lot between Kyle Drabek and the greatest flop of the 2006 draft. And even more between Brown and Drabek.

I know.

It's just that both were proposed as centerpieces for Halladay; well, one actually was and one was just proposed.

And they both suck.

You have a different opinion of Lou Brock than I do.

Well, not really. I should've said that everyone who reached 3000 was CONSIDERED worthy enough that they probably would've been elected even if they had stalled at 2900. Do you think anyone is in the HOF just because they had 3000? Brock had the career and SS stolen base records - he was going to make it anyway. Molitor had a .300 avg and 500+ stolen bases. Winfield had 465 homers and over 1800 rbi's. Yount had 2 MVP's. Boggs had 5 batting titles. Who do you think wouldn't have made the HOF without 3000? Damon has no shot without it.

And the HR milestone has almost certainly moved after the sillyball era ... and/or it will stay where it is and the sillyball era will be completely ignored.

I think the latter is more likely. Ignoring roids, which 500 HR guy from the steroid era would have been on the outside looking in? The worst ones are probably Palmeiro or Sosa, but Raffy also had 3000 hits and Sosa didn't just have 500 homers, he had 609, including a five year stretch of 66, 63, 50, 64, 49. Both of them were going in. The one that would have taken the longest in my opinion would have likely been Sheffield, but he had a batting title and a .292 avg and .393 OBP, so I think even he would've made it eventually during his 15 years. McGriff or Delgado might not have gotten elected even if they'd hit 500, but they didn't, so it doesn't affect the debate.

If Beltre stays healthy, he could clear 3000 hits by a lot.

But as a gold glove 3B, if Beltre stayed healthy this long and produced at his 2010-2011 levels for at least a few more years, wouldn't he be a perfectly reasonable HOF candidate? He's not really a good Damon comp as a player without any legit HOF argument reaching some impressive career numbers just by showing up for a long time. Vizquel comes closer to fitting this description.

He's got 493, and while he's not close to election, he's hovering in the 20% range, so he's not in immediate danger of falling off the ballot, either. I doubt he'd be in already if he'd had 500, but it wouldn't surprise me if his vote total was at least double what it is now. I think the problem with him is that A) Most of his peak (1988-1994) came in a much lower offensive environment and people don't properly adjust for that so they don't understand just how great it was, and B) He's being compared to guys like McGwire (583 homers, 8 seasons higher than McGriff's high) and Palmeiro (569 homers, 9 seasons higher than McGriff's high). And that seems unfair to me, since the voters are basically double penalizing for the steroid era. They're not elected the roiders like Mac and Raffy, but they're still using their numbers to compare the "clean" players to and finding guys like McGriff a little short because of it. It's BS.

That's a really great assessment. Thanks.

Of the first 30 players taken in the 2006 draft (everyone before the supplemental phase), 8 have failed to make the majors. The #9 pick batted .227 in AA ball last year. The 12th pick sported a 7.05 ERA in A ball. The 22nd pick was out of baseball after a 9.49 ERA in A ball in 2010. The 23rd pick last played in 2008. The 24th pick batted .226 in AA. The 26th pick did OK as a AA reliever, but he's already 25. The 27th pick batted .148 in AA. The 29th pick is 27years old, and had an ERA over 5 in AA and AA last year.

Then there's the #6 pick who has a spiffy -4.8 MLB career WAR, or the #2 pick with a career 62 ERA+ so far to go along with his AAA ERA of 6.81 last year. Or the #4 pick, a 27 year old with a career 69 ERA+ in 100 IP. And of course the # 1 pick, who's MLB stat line is 30-43 585 IP ERA+ 81.

The Top 10 of that draft is kinda funny. Three premier talents with HOF potential (Longoria, Kershaw, and Lincecum) with Hochevar, Lincoln, Reynolds, and Miller all picked in the top 6 (ahead of Kershaw and Lincecum).

If Beltre stays healthy, he could clear 3000 hits by a lot.

He'll have to do better than that. He'll have to repeat his last six seasons, his prime seasons, to get to around 2,950 hits. That gets him to his age 39 season. Most nonsuperstars don't last until 40, so it looks like if he makes it he'll just make it, and he'll have to have almost no decline.

He's a career .276 hitter. That would be poor for a guy with 3,000 hits. Beltre's also losing his durability. Something like 112, 143, 126 games played over the last three seasons. He's not the player he was in his 20s and probably won't be that player again. I'm confident he won't make it, but that doesn't mean he won't be able to eventually put together a HOF career.