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Saturday, October 13, 2012

Samsung: Note-able Postseason Performances | STL@WSH Gm5: Descalso, Kozma turn deficit into lead - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Holy crap!! Follow the link to see a replay of the horrific ending for Nationals fans.

Jim Furtado Posted: October 13, 2012 at 07:22 AM | 50 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cardinals, nationals

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   1. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: October 13, 2012 at 07:34 AM (#4267791)
Well, that was sure tough to swallow, but congratulations to the Cardinals and their fans. Those were truly some incredible at bats they put together in the ninth inning.
   2. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: October 13, 2012 at 07:46 AM (#4267792)
And the moral of the story is: don't turn off an elimination game just because the home team is winning 6-0.

The Nats boards are all pounding Rizzo. Not the defense, not the bullpen. No, they're all angry at the man who shut down Stephen Strasburg. (Indeed, he'll be forever known as "The Man Who Shut Down Stephen Strasburg", just like "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance".)
   3. xdog Posted: October 13, 2012 at 08:22 AM (#4267801)
He was the bravest of them all.
   4. wealz Posted: October 13, 2012 at 09:08 AM (#4267811)
It turns out they shouldn't have let Strasburg pitch at all this season. Wasted division title. What a dumb decision.
   5. BDC Posted: October 13, 2012 at 09:10 AM (#4267812)
When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
   6. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: October 13, 2012 at 10:01 AM (#4267842)
It turns out they shouldn't have let Strasburg pitch at all this season. Wasted division title. What a dumb decision.
The guy who Strasburg would have knocked out of the playoff rotation gave up only one run in Game Four.
   7. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: October 13, 2012 at 10:10 AM (#4267849)
I am now the biggest San Francisco Giant fan in Virginia. Going out to buy a Matt Cain jersey today. Die, Cardinal scum. (This isn't very classy, but it's the best I can do today).
   8. Dan Evensen Posted: October 13, 2012 at 10:34 AM (#4267870)
I'm not surprised that Rizzo is getting a pounding on the forums. Look -- honestly, I don't think Strasburg pitching in the playoffs would have guaranteed the Nats a win in this series. The Nats offense is far from perfect, and show a lot of the same problems that it had back in 2011. My concern is that their success this season came in part due to their strength of schedule. Next year is far from in the bag, especially if the Phillies can stay healthy. Realistically, Strasburg starts only one game of this series if he's allowed to play, and it's not Game 5.

It hurts, but I'm rewatching the video again. If Desmond doesn't touch the ball going up the middle, does anyone else think Harper has a play at the plate on the second runner?

Storen hung both of those pitches right over the plate. Geez.

At least they didn't include Harper striking out on that ball around his eyes in the bottom of the 9th. I love watching the kid play, but he really has a lot of growing up to do.

Die, Cardinal scum.

Quoted for truth. Seriously, I hate the Cardinals, absolutely despise them. The 2nd Wild Card team has been a boon for baseball -- but, come on, did it really have to be this Cardinals team? I've wished more harm to David Freese over the past week than I have to anybody else in my life.
   9. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 13, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4267871)
Heh.
   10. PreservedFish Posted: October 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM (#4267899)
The guy who Strasburg would have knocked out of the playoff rotation gave up only one run in Game Four.


I don't think the math is quite that neat. This was a ####### close series. I would have wanted Strasburg.
   11. JE (Jason) Posted: October 13, 2012 at 11:02 AM (#4267902)
Not the defense, not the bullpen.

Before assigning too much blame to the bullpen, let's remember that, of the rotation, only Detwiler pitched really well and none went deep into the games they started:
Gio went five innnings in both Games 1 and 5;
Zimmermann went three;
Jackson went five; and
Detwiler went six.
   12. fra paolo Posted: October 13, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4267912)
The Nats offense is far from perfect, and show a lot of the same problems that it had back in 2011.

This.

The Nationals' fine record was based on a lot of games won by the pitching staff in April and May, when injuries hampered an offense that was almost entirely reliant on hitting the ball out of the park. The Nationals have an OBP problem, which may have been partly solved by Werth's change in approach, but we'll see about that.

EDIT: Also, JE's post 11 — the Nationals vaunted starting pitching turned into something of a pumpkin this past week, and the bullpen had already been looking tired the last few weeks of the season.
   13. Bourbon Samurai Posted: October 13, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4267946)
Strasburg would've taken Detwiler's start, so the results likely would've been the same.

I do hope they re sign Laroche. If I'm going to replace somebody, it would be Morse- he's got power but he always feels like he's going to collapse to me, and his defense is pretty lousy. Not sure who the target would be though- I dunno that Michael Bourn adds a whole lot, and Josh Hamilton obviously carries massive risks.

Maybe Nick Swisher?
   14. JE (Jason) Posted: October 13, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4267948)
If I'm going to replace somebody, it would be Morse- he's got power but he always feels like he's going to collapse to me, and his defense is pretty lousy.

It would have to be someone who contractually agrees to play A-Ha for his walk-up music.
   15. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: October 13, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4267951)
If 2006 and 2011 didn't prove it, then last night certainly did: Ozzie Smith is in fact an actual wizard -- and he grows more powerful with each passing year -- guiding the Cardinals to one improbable victory after another through the forces of magic and mysticism.
   16. McCoy Posted: October 13, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4267954)
I was at the game and when it go to the 8th and they got an out against the Cardinals I announced it was Dusty Baker time. My buddy told me that I was being too much of a Cubs fan and being too bleak. I said just wait. Sure enough a collapse ensued. Unfortunately there were several Cardinal fans around us and they started getting a little chippy with their fellow fans.

As for the Ian Desmond play at the time I thought if he let it go it keeps a run from scoring but it is awfully hard to expect him to pull back on a play like that.
   17. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: October 13, 2012 at 11:51 AM (#4267956)
Unfortunately there were several Cardinal fans around us and they started getting a little chippy with their fellow fans.


Can only hope their bodies were safely dropped in the Anacostia.

ok, over the top, I will desist.
   18. JE (Jason) Posted: October 13, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4267961)
As I noted on another thread, it was an incredible atmosphere at Nats Park last night.

McCoy, I was amazed that no one, other than maybe one or two Red Sox fans who also cheer for the Nats, seemed the least bit nervous about the score until Descalso's solo home run in the eighth. And then everyone rooting for the Nats was 100% certain that either Molina or Freese would be the final out in the ninth, almost certainly by strikeout.

That might account for the depth of the shock experienced moments later.
   19. Leroy Kincaid Posted: October 13, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4267964)
Fell asleep when it was 6-3. Was surprised to find out this morning that the Nats lost. The Cardinals' juggernaut of mediocrity must be stopped!
   20. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: October 13, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4267965)

Can only hope their bodies were safely dropped in the Anacostia.

ok, over the top, I will desist.
I found nothing about this over the top in the slightest.
   21. JE (Jason) Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:01 PM (#4267966)
As for the Ian Desmond play at the time I thought if he let it go it keeps a run from scoring but it is awfully hard to expect him to pull back on a play like that.

Infielders are taught to, at minimum, knock the ball down and keep it from ending up in the outfield.
   22. JE (Jason) Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:04 PM (#4267967)
By the way, I was happy to see Beltran prove the WFAN mongos wrong yet again. Descalso may have been the guy featured on the MLBN highlight reel but Carlos was last night's MVP.
   23. greenback calls it soccer Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4267969)
I know Harper has a cannon, but with two outs and Adron Chambers on second, I like the Cardinals' odds on any groundball that makes it to the outfield.
   24. Dale Sams Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4267970)
I was amazed that no one, other than maybe one or two Red Sox fans who also cheer for the Nats


"Yuuuuuuuuuuupp."
   25. McCoy Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:09 PM (#4267971)
As I noted on another thread, it was an incredible atmosphere at Nats Park last night.

McCoy, I was amazed that no one, other than maybe one or two Red Sox fans who also cheer for the Nats, seemed the least bit nervous about the score until Descalso's solo home run in the eighth. And then everyone rooting for the Nats was 100% certain that either Molina or Freese would be the final out in the ninth, almost certainly by strikeout.

That might account for the depth of the shock experienced moments later.


I think most people around me were getting nervous, but like your experience, when they got that insurance run everybody thought it was over. The double to open up the 9th wasn't that big of a deal and I think most people around me were willing to trade 2 outs for a run if it came to that. When Storen lost his ability to throw a strike and was facing a 3 ball count with a runner on first and third I thought for sure he was groove one down the middle and it would get knocked over the wall. Trailing by a run didn't feel like the worst thing in the world but when they gave up another run most of the people around me knew the game was over.
   26. Bourbon Samurai Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:09 PM (#4267972)
I was amazed that no one, other than maybe one or two Red Sox fans who also cheer for the Nats, seemed the least bit nervous about the score until Descalso's solo home run in the eighth


My group of friends who are Nats fans were all waiting for the wheels to come off, but we all went to college together in chicago so maybe the fatalism just rubbed off
   27. phredbird Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:11 PM (#4267975)
As for the Ian Desmond play at the time I thought if he let it go it keeps a run from scoring but it is awfully hard to expect him to pull back on a play like that.


lordy, he couldn't let that go. i've looked at that video a dozen times, and the d-mn ball almost bounces right into his glove. given, he was diving but if he just managed to catch it in his webbing, all he has to do is flip it to second and the game is over. the runner isn't near the base when the ball hits his glove. i will say, though, that i don't see the second baseman heading for the bag, so he may not have been able to toss it over for the force in time. still ... if desmond handles it, or even knocks it down, only one run scores. right? its not a game of inches, its a game of fractions of inches.
   28. Pujols Shot Ya Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:11 PM (#4267976)
The eight years of heartache is just too much to expect any fanbase to bear.

I was at the game last night. It was wonderful. I cheered my team on, then had a nice moment with the other two older nats fans that were handling the loss like adults.
   29. phredbird Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4267979)
looking some more ... it looks like a tough play no matter what. freeze the video at the moment the ball bounces off desmond's glove. neither the runner nor the second baseman are in the picture. if the second baseman is on the way to the bag, i think desmond could probably make that play if the ball had bounced right, but it would have been close because desmond would have to stop his momentum, grab the ball out of his glove and do a flip. he wouldn't have time to get up and throw since the man on first was running with the pitch. the critical thing here is how fast the second baseman was heading for second for a force play.

tell you what though ... that ball was smoked and it was a hard play no matter what.
   30. Bourbon Samurai Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:26 PM (#4267981)
The eight years of heartache is just too much to expect any fanbase to bear.


Yes it is so sad for the fans of DC's only professional sports team.

   31. Bourbon Samurai Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:29 PM (#4267982)
ordy, he couldn't let that go. i've looked at that video a dozen times, and the d-mn ball almost bounces right into his glove. given, he was diving but if he just managed to catch it in his webbing, all he has to do is flip it to second and the game is over. the runner isn't near the base when the ball hits his glove. i will say, though, that i don't see the second baseman heading for the bag, so he may not have been able to toss it over for the force in time. still ... if desmond handles it, or even knocks it down, only one run scores. right? its not a game of inches, its a game of fractions of inches.


In hindsight Harper's arm probably keeps the 2nd run from scoring but people can't seriously expect Desmond to calculate that. His job is to go for the ball, he did, almost got it.
   32. salvomania Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:29 PM (#4267984)
Without going back and looking at it, that play seemed very similar to the short-hop liner that Kozma fielded a couple innings earlier. I thought that was an amazing play on a tough ball, and it was the thing that I immediately thought of at the time of the Desmond play. A great play saves the game, but you can't expect a great play.
   33. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:45 PM (#4267989)
I don't think the math is quite that neat. This was a ####### close series. I would have wanted Strasburg.


They lost a close series in 5 games, one that they had the lead in the 9th inning of the clincher. I think that arguably the best pitcher in the league, either starting twice or coming out of the pen, would have helped. But this is BTF, so of course he wouldn't have.

And this was only the first round. They were still going to have to whistle past the graveyard in the NLCS and WS, without using their best pitcher, and hope to win.

And who knows what will happen with Strasburg/Harper/the team in the coming years, anyway.

Confirmed that Rizzo made a foolish, irrational decision.
   34. Dale Sams Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:50 PM (#4267993)
Rizzo?

How about in the most important inning, Johnson have someone warming since, ya know...his closer is on his third straight day? How about getting someone up? No? Gonna be old skool and say "He's my man?". Well allrighty then.
   35. BDC Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4267997)
Do Cardinals fans these days sit around 3 or 4 runs down in the middle of elimination games and say to one another, "Piece of cake, they're right where we want them?" I'm trying to imagine the thoughts and emotions. On second thought, maybe I'm better off not knowing :)
   36. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4268001)
Do Cardinals fans these days sit around 3 or 4 runs down in the middle of elimination games and say to one another, "Piece of cake, they're right where we want them?" I'm trying to imagine the thoughts and emotions. On second thought, maybe I'm better off not knowing :)


The Yankees went through a run like this in the late '90s. These runs are flukes, and they end suddenly.
   37. phredbird Posted: October 13, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4268010)
These runs are flukes, and they end suddenly.


*fingers in ears* LA LA LA LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU!!!11!!!
   38. Rusty Mitchener Posted: October 13, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4268016)
BTF, where the "thinking" fans think Adron Chambers gets thrown out on a ground ball up the middle. #NoFnWay
   39. Bourbon Samurai Posted: October 13, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4268019)
BTF, where the "thinking" fans think Adron Chambers gets thrown out on a ground ball up the middle. #NoFnWay


Harper has an absolute cannon. It wouldn't have been certain, but that was no regular CF out there.
   40. cardsfanboy Posted: October 13, 2012 at 01:41 PM (#4268026)
Can only hope their bodies were safely dropped in the Anacostia.

ok, over the top, I will desist.


Why, if the emotions are there, let it out. It's good for you.
   41. cardsfanboy Posted: October 13, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4268030)
Do Cardinals fans these days sit around 3 or 4 runs down in the middle of elimination games and say to one another, "Piece of cake, they're right where we want them?" I'm trying to imagine the thoughts and emotions. On second thought, maybe I'm better off not knowing :)


Not really, you have some (like me) who say "remember when we came back that time..." "It's not over until 27 outs are recorded" etc...while the rest of them have turned off the game but keep turning it back on, then drinking heavily, and watching the game out of the corner of their eye, even if they have given up.
   42. Perry Posted: October 13, 2012 at 05:33 PM (#4268188)
Not really, you have some (like me) who say "remember when we came back that time..." "It's not over until 27 outs are recorded" etc...while the rest of them have turned off the game but keep turning it back on, then drinking heavily, and watching the game out of the corner of their eye, even if they have given up.


Damn, were you looking through my window? 'Cuz that's exactly how I watch. And so far it's working.

And when they're leading I'm worse. In the bottom of the 9th in game 7 of the 2006 NLCS, I actually left the house and walked the streets for what seemed like forever, until I figured it was over one way or the other. Got back just in time to see Wainwright vs. Beltran, which I forced myself to watch, but only from the next room.
   43. Guts Posted: October 13, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4268211)
Not really, you have some (like me) who say "remember when we came back that time..." "It's not over until 27 outs are recorded" etc...while the rest of them have turned off the game but keep turning it back on, then drinking heavily, and watching the game out of the corner of their eye, even if they have given up.

I watch the whole time, while posting fatalistic comments in Chatter and drinking heavily. It's working so far.
   44. greenback calls it soccer Posted: October 13, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4268230)
Harper has an absolute cannon. It wouldn't have been certain, but that was no regular CF out there.

In addition to Chambers being really fast and getting a typical two out jump, Harper was moving sideways to the plate rather than charging the ball before Desmond deflected it. Chambers makes it standing up.

   45. Spahn Insane Posted: October 13, 2012 at 06:45 PM (#4268252)
Quoted for truth. Seriously, I hate the Cardinals, absolutely despise them. The 2nd Wild Card team has been a boon for baseball -- but, come on, did it really have to be this Cardinals team?

Bud Selig's now feverishly at work to create third and fourth wildcard slots for next year, lest the Cardinals manage not to be one of the top two non-division winners.
   46. esseff Posted: October 13, 2012 at 07:07 PM (#4268272)
Agree that the former SEC DB would have scored from second base if the ball had not been touched on the infield. What would have been different is that Harper would probably have kept Freese at second, so that Kozma's hit would have scored one run, not two.

Given the 1-2-3 ninth, I guess that's a really minor distinction. But maybe someone can make a case that the dynamic of the ninth would have been different.

   47. JE (Jason) Posted: October 13, 2012 at 08:15 PM (#4268333)
Agree that the former SEC DB would have scored from second base if the ball had not been touched on the infield. What would have been different is that Harper would probably have kept Freese at second, so that Kozma's hit would have scored one run, not two.

Or just as likely, Harper uncorks a throw home that lands on the screen. (Don't think he was overly amped at that moment? Look at the pitch he swung at for strike three minutes later.)
   48. GuyM Posted: October 13, 2012 at 10:48 PM (#4268651)
What would have been different is that Harper would probably have kept Freese at second, so that Kozma's hit would have scored one run, not two

Except that Harper would have come up firing to home, which likely would have allowed Freese to advance. I doubt Harper hits the cutoff man there.

In any case, is anyone suggesting the Desmond should have actually allowed the ball to go through? He obviously had a good chance to knock the ball down, which would normally prevent the second run even if there wasn't time to make the force at 2B. How could he possibly anticipate that it would deflect into right-center?
   49. McCoy Posted: October 14, 2012 at 12:04 AM (#4268925)
I thought Davey botched his relief usage in game 5. Not only didn't he have anyone warming up when it became obvious that Drew was struggling but he also employed Edwin Jackson as a reliever and had no one gettting warmed up when Gio ran into trouble in the 5th. Edwin Jackson's whole MO is that he'll occasionally start off shaky but then generally settle down. That isn't a good recipe for a reliever. Between going to Edwin and staying with Gio in the 5th the Nationals gave the Cards two runs. Add in giving the ball to Drew and then not trying to mitigate the disaster that was happening in the 9th probabaly cost the Nats another run or two.

Granted the pen was not good this series so there was no guarantee that another option would have been better.
   50. GuyM Posted: October 14, 2012 at 12:30 AM (#4268994)
I think it started earlier. I was in game 3 when Davey brought Storen in to pitch the 9th, down 8-0. At that point the Nats knew they needed to win two consecutive games, and so were likely to need Storen both days. Why do you set it up so he's pitching on a 3rd consecutive day when you will need him at his best? Obviously, there's no guarantee Storen would have been better with the extra rest. But using him in game 3 was crazy.

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