The bronze statue will have more range to its right than Sandberg had.

The bronze statue will have more range to its right than Sandberg had.

Ralph Kiner once referred to him as "Ryne Sandbag"

I give Larry Bowa precisely 5 minutes signing autographs before he says "F@ck this!" and storms out.

The bronze statue will have more range to its right than Sandberg had.

I never understood this. Why do people think Sandburg had bad range? Because he never dove? He wasn't flashy but he played angles better than any middle infielder I have ever seen. He got to MORE balls because of this not less.

Why do people think Sandburg had bad range?

Because balls to his right usually went past him.

Because balls to his right usually went past him.

Wrong! He was/is a top 5 defensive 2b over the last 30 years. I have no idea what Sandberg you watched but it must have been through jaded eyes. Cardinals fan? White Sox fan?

What is funny is that I was not a huge fan of Sandburg’s until I gave a fielding clinic to some HS players and was looking for some footage to demonstrate technique, footwork, taking the proper angle to the ball and setting yourself up to throw the ball. Sandberg stuck out as the best at all of that, the only thing he was not among the best at was turning two.

As a Met fan let me admit right now that I despised Ryne Sandberg...

Ok, lets go, Sandberg was famously a "throw in" to the DeJesus/Bowa deal
let's look at that.
1: DeJesus was only 29, he was not a star, but he was a well regarded player, a good hitting SS - well he hit .270-.280 most years but had actually cratered the year before the trade, plus that .270-.280 was pretty empty and accomplished in Wrigley, the best hitter's park in the league back then, his OPS+ topped out at 90, and over his 27-28 season was around 70- 90 was actually pretty good fro an SS in the 70s- but that was his extreme high end, he ended up 77 for his career, he was a good defender but no GG candidate, he was really just another player

2: Bowa was 36 and as a player an older version of DeJesus, at his best he was a tad better than DeJesus at his best- plus when the trade was made he was coming off a better year than DeJesus, but in any event other than for a year or two Bowa was just another player, 20/20 hindsight, even though DeJesus was 7 years younger, the trade of the two was as even as a "challenge trade" can be,

but

3: Sandberg- 20th round pick, was really good 1 year in AA, but other than that 1 year his minor league career was lackluster, and yet the Cubs made him their every day 3B at age 21 and move him to 2B the next year, he OPS+s 90 and 82... (and yet finishes 6th in ROY voting the 1st year and wins a GG the next...) But still he's not much better than Sandberg or Bowa at this point...

The comes 1984

When Sandberg was traded in January 1982 I think the idea that he'd be the NL MVP (deservedly) in 1984 would have been absurd

Here is the top 20 in WAR, 1984, among players within 1 year of Sandberg's age:

Rk Player WAR/pos Year
1 Cal Ripken 9.2 1984
2 Ryne Sandberg 8.5 1984
3 Tony Gwynn 6.8 1984
4 Rickey Henderson 6.3 1984
5 Don Mattingly 6.3 1984
6 Lloyd Moseby 6.2 1984
7 Alvin Davis 5.6 1984
8 Kevin McReynolds 5.5 1984
9 Tim Raines 5.4 1984
10 Kent Hrbek 5.4 1984
11 Chili Davis 5.3 1984
12 Carmelo Martinez 4.6 1984
13 Willie McGee 3.7 1984
14 Harold Baines 3.6 1984
15 Mike Scioscia 3.6 1984
16 Tim Teufel 3.5 1984
17 Rich Gedman 3.2 1984
18 Von Hayes 3 1984
19 Gary Gaetti 2.9 1984
20 Kirby Puckett 2.6 1984

What do they all have in common? (other than never being in my kitchen)- prior to 1984 they all had better (sometimes much better) track records as hitters (including looking at mles) than Sandberg- what happened?

Why did Sandberg suddenly shoot up 50-60 points in OPS+?
and moreover, it wasn't a one year fluke- he stayed up there for many years after that.

I really don't think you can fault Philly for not seeing that coming, Sandberg WAS at the time a throw-in type guy, young to be sure, but a C+ prospect, not even really a B...

I dunno. I wouldn't necessarily say that Sandberg had an HOF-potential minor league track record but he was also a SS in the minors. It's pretty silly for the Phillies to include a middle infielder who had a great year in AA at 20 and a perfectly decent year in AAA at 21 (essentially a league-average OPS while playing SS) as a "throw-in".

The trade that contributed more than any other to an ensuing dark age for the Phillies that lasted a quarter century will be strangely celebrated next week in Allentown.

That's a strange thing to say, when the Phillies won the pennant two years after the trade, and then another one ten years later. There are plenty of franchises for whom two pennants in ten years would be considered a golden age.

There are plenty of franchises for whom two pennants in ten years would be considered a golden age.

Such as ... the Phillies.

but he was also a SS in the minors.

One who the Phillies did not think for more than a second would be a SS in the Majors

Look I'll happily concede that they mis-scouted their own player. In a bizarre way he was defensively the opposite of Jeter - he didn't look to the casual observer to be as good or athletic as a Jeter- but he was athletic and more than made up any remaining athleticism gap with positioning and footwork- but some observers simply will not notice that (or the lack thereof)- which is long winded way of saying that while I don't think you can fault the Phils for wholly missing Sandberg's development as a hitter- I think it is likely true that they completely missed that Sandberg was not only capable of being an MLB middle-infielder, they missed the fact that defensively he was well above average- and if they had not missed that fact he would never have been a trade throw-in... of course teh asame brain trust later insisted that Juan Samuel could play 2nd...

One who the Phillies did not think for more than a second would be a SS in the Majors

Yet it was Dallas Green who traded for him.

Keep in mind that it wasn't just Dallas Green who came over to Chicago from the Phillies, but also Gord Goldsberry, whom I believe either scouted or drafted Sandberg.

Dallas actually got a lot of crap early for making Chicago "Philly west" -- and given how much Philly personnel he brought over to Chicago, it shouldn't be at all surprising that they were successfully able to plumb a darkhorse/hidden gem. I don't think they expected a HoFer, but it makes sense that a GM/scouting team would be good at plucking those hidden valuables from a former organization.

If there's a lesson here - it's that a team really should think twice about making a trade with a team that recently hired its former braintrust. Yet - it happens a lot...

If there's a lesson here - it's that a team really should think twice about making a trade with a team that recently hired its former braintrust. Yet - it happens a lot...

Sometimes it works - a la Larry Himes and the Sosa-Bell trade.

Sometimes it doesn't because the GM is too focused on his own favorites from his old team. Look at Andy McPhail's desire to bring ex-Twins to the Cubs.

Juan Samuel wasn't that bad of a player. The Phillies are not perceived as having had a huge hole in the lineup as a result of the Sandberg trade. They had Samuel for many years, then Tom Herr, then Mickey Morandini. All remembered fondly, Samuel partially for being traded for a young Lenny Dykstra.

Sometimes it doesn't because the GM is too focused on his own favorites from his old team. Look at Andy McPhail's desire to bring ex-Twins to the Cubs.

And sometimes it just doesn't matter, like with Randy Smith's desire to bring ex-Padres to the Tigers.

(overall 1996-97 Tigers-Padres transactions:

Cade Gaspar, Sean Bergman, Todd Steverson, John Flaherty, Chris Gomez, Cam Smith, Joey Eischen, Mike Darr, Matt Skrmetta, Dave Hajek, Ryan Balfe, Dan Miceli, Donne Wall, Scott Sanders
for
Tim Hyers, Raul Casanova, Richie Lewis, Melvin Nieves, Russ Spear, Brad Ausmus, Andujar Cedeno, Fernando Hernandez, Willie Blair, Brian Johnson, Jody Reed, Earl Johnson, Trey Beamon, Tim Worrell, Sean Runyan, Rod Lindsey

If there's a lesson here - it's that a team really should think twice about making a trade with a team that recently hired its former braintrust. Yet - it happens a lot...

The Red Sox haven't had any second thoughts on dealing with Hoyer last year.

Someone who can be a league-average hitter at a very young age and a plus-defender is a really valuable player.

I remember Bill James writing something about Sandberg after the MVP season, saying he was trying to figure out a way to measure the most valuable commodities in baseball, and Sandberg kept popping up high on his list (pre-MVP), and he thought there was a glitch in his system.

The Red Sox haven't had any second thoughts on dealing with Hoyer last year.

Super-small sample, but:

Anthony Rizzo (Hoyer's traded for him twice!)- .377/.411/.679
Casey Kelly - 2.25, 14/0 K/BB in 12 IP

prior to 1984 they all had better (sometimes much better) track records as hitters (including looking at mles) than Sandberg

#8 was interesting, though I'll nitpick whether McGee ever truly was better with the bat than Sandberg. McGee was a year older and had hit only a bit better, plus Willie was getting a fair number of hits by beating out routine grounders to short.

I mention it mostly so I can bring up the famous (or to me, infamous) June 23, 1984 Cubs 12-11 victory in which Sandberg wins the duel between the two players. It took 11 innings, Sandberg had two late homers, five hits, seven RBI, and vaulted into the national spotlight. McGee hit for the cycle and had 6 RBI of his own, but by the end of the game almost nobody noticed.

I mention it mostly so I can bring up the famous (or to me, infamous) June 23, 1984 Cubs 12-11 victory in which Sandberg wins the duel between the two players. It took 11 innings, Sandberg had two late homers, five hits, seven RBI, and vaulted into the national spotlight. McGee hit for the cycle and had 6 RBI of his own, but by the end of the game almost nobody noticed.

They weren't just two late homers -- a game-tying shot in the 9th off of then all-world closer Bruce Sutter, then another two-run shot in the 10th to tie it off Sutter again before Davey Owen went on to single in the game winner in the 11th.

It was a nationally televised NBC game of the week (back when that meant something) -- and IIRC, I think Willie McGee had already been awarded 'Player of the Game' by the time Sandberg's first heroics came to pass.

Super-small sample, but:

Anthony Rizzo (Hoyer's traded for him twice!)- .377/.411/.679
Casey Kelly - 2.25, 14/0 K/BB in 12 IP

You probably should have mentioned that these are in AAA.

IIRC, I think Willie McGee had already been awarded 'Player of the Game' by the time Sandberg's first heroics came to pass.

You remember correctly, IIRC. They switched to that game on my local station and were talking about McGee, and then BOOM.

BTW, 84-92 was definitely a dark period for the Phillies. Saying they won pennants in '83 and '93 doesn't make it better. For one thing, there is absolutely no connection between the '83 and '93 teams, and they lost both series.

At one time, the Phillies had Julio Franco, Ryne Sandberg and Juan Samuel in their system. They ended up with an infield that featured Rick Schu, Steve Jeltz and Samuel. Von Hayes, regarded as a disappointment, was a fine player, but the Phils took it on the chin on that deal. Samuel had his moments, and from a scouting perspective, you could totally see how they would pick him over the other two. Didn't make it easier to stomach. Trading away the 1984 AL MVP for a thoroughly mediocre Glenn Wilson was salt in the wound.

Add on the bitter disappointment of the Lance Parrish signing, who was an All-Star caliber catcher before and after playing in Philadelphia, and the non-development of highly touted kids who started out on fire like Jeff Stone and Bruce Ruffin, and you have pretty disappointing era that included a huge chunk of Mike Schmidt's career.

Juan Samuel wasn't that bad of a player. The Phillies are not perceived as having had a huge hole in the lineup as a result of the Sandberg trade. They had Samuel for many years, then Tom Herr, then Mickey Morandini. All remembered fondly

My point was that Juan Samuel was not a 2B (well Juan Samuel's big problem was that he was borderline trainwreckish at EVERY position)

BTW, 84-92 was definitely a dark period for the Phillies.

That's fine and all, but the point was in response to this quote from the article/excerpt:

The trade that contributed more than any other to an ensuing dark age for the Phillies that lasted a quarter century will be strangely celebrated next week in Allentown.

As a Cubs fan, I would take that Phillie dark period for a couple of pennants bookending it.

I remember Bill James writing something about Sandberg after the MVP season, saying he was trying to figure out a way to measure the most valuable commodities in baseball, and Sandberg kept popping up high on his list (pre-MVP), and he thought there was a glitch in his system.

For whatever it's worth (not much probably) I remember my late uncle raving about how good Sandberg was going to be, at Wrigley, August 1983.
By that time Sandberg was hitting leadoff and was on his way to that first GG (he'd been the everyday 2b from the beginning of the season).
Maybe Harry Caray talked about him a lot? I dunno.

(I mainly remember the game because Walt Terrell took Fergie Jenkins deep his first two times up, but Uncle Lee's Sandberg approval was memorable also)

Willie McGee had already been awarded 'Player of the Game'

What did that earn him, a Bulova watch? It would be cool if he still has it.