The Giants. Urgh.

I think it's a great story. You get a Game 1 victory against a guy who's looked untouchable this October and you do it mostly on the shoulders of the two guys who have 2010 World Series rings but weren't even on the postseason roster that year.

Pablo Sandoval’s historic night in the World Series came against one of the game’s pitchers,

Well, it didn't come against one of the game's shortstops.

Panda was on the post-season roster in 2010. He just didn't start because he lost his job. He did have a double, though.

Pablo Sandoval’s historic night in the World Series came against one of the game’s pitchers

I told the Tigers to let an outfielder pitch, but nooooo!
If they lose tonight, their season's over.

Johnny Peralta’s two-run home run in the ninth were too little, too late.

Geez. Did they hire the janitor to write/edit this story?

I'm pretty sure the season is already over. Tonight they lost both a game Verlander started and a game in which Zito started against them. In addition to the disadvantage that already puts them at, I expect they'll tighten up and be even more hacktastic in the coming games. Bumgarner will be the next Giants starter to "come up big when the chips are down," i.e. take advantage of his surroundings.

If they lose tonight, their season's over.

I thought it was over weeks ago.

(It should be noted that I mean this good-naturedly. Buck up, your guys are still in the thick of it!)

I can hardly blame any Tigers fan for feeling that way. Brutal game.

I have no idea how to do it, but they really need to figure out how to even up breaks. Again, not a clue how.

I have no idea how to do it, but they really n figure out how to even up breaks. Again, no how.

You don't need to know how. Pretty sure nobody on the giants thought last night's game plan was for "Pandoval" (copyright Tim Mccarver) to smash a nipplegrazer from Verlander out, then hit two more and have Zito get another RBI.

Geez. Did they hire the janitor to write/edit this story?

This is WAY out of line, even for BTF. The bigoted attitudes towards Janitors in this country is intolerable.

Panda was on the post-season roster in 2010. He just didn't start because he lost his job.

I'd forgotten how bad he was at the end of that season.

Looking at the rosters...looks like Panda and Posey are the only two position players left from the 2010 team. That they could turn over almost the entire offense and win another title within two years is pretty amazing. (Obviously the pitching staff's been more stable, but they've still had to deal with Lincecum falling off a cliff and Wilson being hurt.)

they really need to figure out how to even up breaks

One suggestion would be to schedule a very long season -- say 162 games.

I have no idea how to do it, but they really need to figure out how to even up breaks.

They've had the breaks go against them all year. They managed to win 88 games on talent alone; snuck to a division title because the White Sox collapsed; beat the A's despite their best efforts to give that series away; and won the ALCS thanks to the Yankees' epic face-plant. And now Verlander -- the Tigers one sure thing -- falls apart. Time's running out, folks.

That they could turn over almost the entire offense and win another title within two years is pretty amazing.

It is amazing but given the 2010 offense was a complete "grab this guy and hope he sticks" mid-season rebuild, they had no other choice.

I'm pretty sure the season is already over.

I'm pretty sure they have at least 3 more games, unless the schedule makers got it wrong...

That was a great game (says the biased Giants fan). Panda was awesome, and the narrative around he and Zito is pretty cool. Sadly I don't think the series is over (in any sense of the word), but a loss tonight will make it tough for the Tigers. the last few years have shown that it really is not over until the very end.

It's such a cliche but it's so true, every time you turn on a baseball game you don't know what you are going to see. I really enjoyed that game last night.

"grab this guy and hope he sticks" mid-season rebuild

Funny, I have this mental image of Sandoval playing in the World Series (and he did DH in one game, anyway). I guess it's just that he is a memorable guy. Their actual left-side infield in Game Five was of course Juan Uribe and Edgar Renteria, who are the first guys one thinks of when one says "San Francisco Giants" :)

Dammit, and I thought I was seeing something special when I watched Pujols hit those three home runs last year.

What is the take around here on Bochy as a manager? World Series appearance with a largely mediocre Padres club and now with a Giants club that does not look like world beaters on paper either. Just curious.

I'm now wondering how unusual it is to have a team return to the World Series after a short time and feature a much-changed lineup. The Giants seem extreme, but then I thought of the 1983 Phillies; they had only three of the same starters in WS Game One in 1980 and '83 (Schmidt, Rose, and Maddox), but during the regular season Rose and Maddox had been reduced to platooning (and wouldn't start every game of the '83 Series). But that's an extra year too, of course. Perhaps there are closer analogues to the Giants.

I thought I was seeing something special when I watched Pujols hit those three home runs

It's funny, but watching last night I thought to myself, "gee, that hasn't happened since Reggie Jackson." Selective amnesia …

What is the take around here on Bochy as a manager? World Series appearance with a largely mediocre Padres club and now with a Giants club that does not look like world beaters on paper either. Just curious.

Speaking for myself I don't get the sense that he's an especially noteworthy tactician either way but he seems very very good at getting guys to buy into their roles and put them in positions to succeed. I never get a sense that he's asking players to do something they can't/shouldn't be doing and I think that's an underrated skill for a manager. Not only do you need to recognize what people can do you need to be able to get them on board with the plan.

I've been very impressed with his bullpen management this post-season but I don't have a sense if that is a long standing skill of his.

I thought of the 1983 Phillies; they had only three of the same starters in WS Game One in 1980 and '83

The 2004/2007 Red Sox similarly had just three of the nine starters return but those three all were still playing critical roles (Papi, Manny, Varitek).

For what it's worth the 2004 club had none of the starters from the 1918 team. :-)

Taking a quick look at recent semi-repeaters the 1996 Yankees carried just 4 of 9 starters to the 1998 club (O'Neill, Bernie, Tino, Jeter).

The '72 A's had 4 starters in common with the '74 A's.

In both of those cases there were some players who contributed to both clubs though in roles less prominent than true "starter" (e.g. Girardi, Strawberry, Tenace).

What is the take around here on Bochy as a manager? World Series appearance with a largely mediocre Padres club and now with a Giants club that does not look like world beaters on paper either. Just curious.

I've always thought he was pretty good. His teams rarely underperform their expectations, and he seems to do a decent job managing the pitching staff.

A managerial ranking would be an interesting project. Not so much to get a definitive "who is better than who" answer, but to provide some frame of reference. When a manager is described as awful what does that mean? 30th best in baseball? 20th? 15th?

From various tweets:
Three Giants had three homers at AT&T this season - not in a game, on the season.
The only other 3 HR game at that place was by Kevin Elster, the day it opened.

I've always liked Bochy and agree w/ Jose's 24.

A managerial ranking would be an interesting project. Not so much to get a definitive "who is better than who" answer, but to provide some frame of reference. When a manager is described as awful what does that mean? 30th best in baseball? 20th? 15th?

Well hell, I'll have a bit of a whirl at that.

Top Third - Francona, Maddon, Showalter, Leyland, Bochy, D. Johnson, Baker, Black, Gonzalez, Gibson - Just looking at that list it's a lot of guys that are able to blend "players manager" and "tough guy" pretty well. Black's record is not great but the rare times I see the Padres I think he has a good grip on the game and I have an impression that he's on top of things.

Middle Third - Manuel, Matheny, Gardenhire, Scioscia, Washington, Melvin, Roenicke, Ventura, Mattingly, Hurdle - I feel like this group is pretty solid in general but often seems to have a flaw that holds them back. Manuel is probably the guy I'd move up if forced to. I liked what I saw from Matheny this year an awful lot. I think he will be very good for awhile.

Bottom Third - Valentine, Farrell, Acta, Wedge, Girardi, Guillen, Yost, Collins, Sveum, Mills, Tracy - To no surprise it's guys who manage bad teams. Girardi and Guillen are the ones that pop at me and in both cases it's because I think they are more likely to throw gasoline on a fire than water. Both can be very good but I think they often make bad situations worse. I'm optimistic about the Farrell hire, but so far the performance has not been good and to pretend otherwise would be foolish. I probably have less of a handle on Mills (who I know was fired) and Collins than any other managers on this list.

Not that it's a shocking development but record is obviously a big driver. Black and Gardenhire are the two guys I think deserve to be most elevated above their won/loss record.

Going by the logic I have seen with regard to the Giants in this year's postseason, I expect Pagan to hit for the cycle and Baumgardner to throw a no hitter.

Going by the logic I have seen with regard to the Giants in this year's postseason, I expect Pagan to hit for the cycle and Baumgardner to throw a no hitter.

To me that logic says they will win the first games by a combined 25 runs and then not score another run.

Speaking for myself I don't get the sense that he's an especially noteworthy tactician either way but he seems very very good at getting guys to buy into their roles and put them in positions to succeed. I never get a sense that he's asking players to do something they can't/shouldn't be doing and I think that's an underrated skill for a manager. Not only do you need to recognize what people can do you need to be able to get them on board with the plan.

Bochy's a quite good tactical manager. The Giants stole 118 bases at a 75% clip. Bochy is very good at being unpredictable. He will bunt with the pitcher, have the pitcher swing away, pretty much optimally (in that you can't be sure of his decision ever). The Giants play very good defense, and have excellent fundamentals, despite almost a complete roster turnover from last year. The Giants, despite having relatively mediocre defenders at most positions, were 6th in the league in DER, due to aggressive positioning adjustments.

The bullpen is regularly one of the best in the major leagues, pretty much no matter what. Bochy typically is intelligent with his double-switches, and maximizes his line-up pretty effectively. He has run platoons at multiple positions during the year (SS, 1B, LF), but he calms it down when one player starts to play better.

My only real criticism of him in 2012 has been his reluctance to use Belt, and his preference for Casilla over Romo earlier in the year.

In my mind, Bochy gives the Giants an advantage at the manager spot in most games. The only manager I think of as being significantly better is Joe Maddon--mostly due to his innovations with the shift.

This is WAY out of line, even for BTF. The bigoted attitudes towards Janitors in this country is intolerable.

Bet the janitor has better salary and benefits than the writers.

As I pointed out before, in three of the four WS that the Tigers have won (1935, 1945, 1968) they not only lost the first game, but were shut out. Two of those were bad-looking losses, too - 1945 was a 9-0 shellacking in which the Cubs bombed Tiger ace Hal Newhouser for seven runs in 2 2/3 innings, and 1968 was the game in which Bob Gibson fanned 17.

-- MWE

Um, didn't Dag Nabbit write an entire manager-ranking book that was rather well-reviewed? I'm on my phone so I can't do more about the link or his actual name that I can't remember, so someone else will have to do that....

It is amazing but given the 2010 offense was a complete "grab this guy and hope he sticks" mid-season rebuild, they had no other choice.

I was gonna add to my original post that it's not like the 2010 Giant offense was anything special (as you said, a series of in-season acquisitions that worked out better than anyone could've reasonably expected brought the offense all the way up to "pretty OK"), but the ability to so quickly build and then rebuild a championship-adequate (if not "championship-quality" in and of itself) offense in two years speaks well of Sabean. For a guy who's taken a good bit of maligning over the years, his track record's pretty damn impressive.

EDIT: I guess I was wrong in my original post as to who's left among the 2010 position players; Huff's still on the roster, though not starting.

As I pointed out before, in three of the four WS that the Tigers have won (1935, 1945, 1968) they not only lost the first game, but were shut out. Two of those were bad-looking losses, too - 1945 was a 9-0 shellacking in which the Cubs bombed Tiger ace Hal Newhouser for seven runs in 2 2/3 innings, and 1968 was the game in which Bob Gibson fanned 17.

Yeah, but two of those were against the Cubs, so that hardly counts.

Bet the janitor has better salary and benefits than the writers.

Having worked as a janitor for four or five summers to pay for university tuition I wonder if I have the most janitorial experience on BTF. It all depends on whether we have any actual janitors here, but my roughly 18 (non-continuous) months might be in the running, this is exciting! (Please, no one crush my dream, I haven't won anything in a while).

Of course it was for the Toronto District School Board, so I probably did about 5 hours of actual work in that time.

I have no idea how to do it, but they really need to figure out how to even up breaks. Again, not a clue how.

Pretty sure scoring more runs than the Giants in game two would work.

What is the take around here on Bochy as a manager? World Series appearance with a largely mediocre Padres club

Were the '98 Padres really a mediocre, "why are THEY here?" type of World Series participant? They won 98 games and featured near Cy Young winning seasons by both Kevin Brown and Trevor Hoffman, as well as an offense with Tony Gwynn, Ken Caminiti, and a 50 homer season by Greg Vaughn. They never struck me as being one of those headscratcher teams who's success is hard to explain.

They should have enough low-paid/unpaid interns to have multiple editors review their stuff.

Bochy isn't a bad manager and he tightens up his bullpen considerably in the playoffs, but he really really harps on young players, and is a fan of hacking - Belt kept getting benched because he wasn't aggressive enough, and he insisted on playing Huff last year when the later was clearly out of shape and just awful. His veteran fetish is strong and overriding. On the upside, he doesn't live and die on the bunt like others, and he is fairly smart tactically.

Booey

I guess I am mostly remembering how they were rolled in the series that year. I also always have a hard time remembering Greg Vaughn as an offensive force.

What is the take around here on Bochy as a manager? World Series appearance with a largely mediocre Padres club and now with a Giants club that does not look like world beaters on paper either.

I think he's a solid manager. He's low key and good with the players. No idea what he's like in terms of in game strategy. As to the Padres, they were not mediocre in 1998 and this year's Giants team is one of the best offensive clubs in the league and pretty good on D as well.

I haven't watched Lincecum pitch much but it struck me how much he relied on his slider last night (I presume it was a slider) that comes in at 84mph.

And I just read James's comments from a couple days ago, where he touches on this:

-------------------

I doubt that [Lincecum] is done. He made 33 starts and struck out more than a batter an inning. I don't see a breakdown; he just didn't have the command and control needed to succeed. He may need to re-tool his pitch selection, probably has some mechanical issues. He threw 52% fastballs this year, which is very, very low. In 2009 he threw 5% sliders; this year it was 17%. His slider isn't that good, frankly, that he should be throwing it more than once an inning. And, because the fast ball is the easiest pitch to control, throwing 48% off-speed stuff would cause command and control issues for almost any pitcher, I would think.

It's not unlike Zito, honestly. Zito in 2002 had that tremendous curve ball, and in 2010-2011 he had basically stopped throwing it, which I never understood. You would ask people what was going on with that, and we would hear that it was some physical issue that "he just can't get on top of his curve ball the way he used to." There is a lot in baseball that I don't understand, and that's on the list. This seems like a similar problem: you've got a former Cy Young winner who is not throwing his best pitches, and no one can really explain why in terms that make any sense.

Were the '98 Padres really a mediocre, "why are THEY here?" type of World Series participant?

Kind of like this year's Tigers, they were good enough in their own right, but they weren't anywhere near the best team in their league's regular season. '98 was Bobby Cox's best Braves' team, and the killer-bee Astros also won more games than the Padres. Then San Diego tore through them both in the playoffs. And it's still hard to figure out how. Looking at the box scores, Kevin Brown was certainly good, but the guy nobody could buy a hit off of was Sterling Hitchcock. What a game, baseball.

The 1998 Braves were ridiculously good and probably were the only team that would have had a legitimate chance to beat the Yankees that year. They had 106 Pythag wins and 106 real wins, compared to the Padres who had 93 Pythag wins.

I guess I am mostly remembering how they were rolled in the series that year. I also always have a hard time remembering Greg Vaughn as an offensive force.

Remember though, they were rolled by a team that would be on a very, very short list of the greatest teams of all time. The '98 Yankees had the ability to make a lot of high quality teams look like minor leaguers.

As people have pointed out though, the '98 Braves and Astros were even better looking than the Padres, but I always saw that as a year when there were 3 truly deserving World Series caliber teams in the NL that season rather than one clear cut favorite, and any one of them would have been a legit contender in a series that didn't feature the '98 Yanks.

Bochy is (mostly) hated and reviled by the Internet Giants Intelligensia because he

a) likes him some veterans (well, yanked Belt around and others for sure). With SD he only stopped playing Vinnie Castilla when the GM cut him.
b) makes strange lineups
c) loves backup catchers too much (really a combination of a/b)

That being said:

1) he doesn't favor the bunt. Tactically he seems fine, good baserunning, etc.
2) I think he handles the pitching staff rather brilliantly (closer by committee even)
3) seems to get a lot out of unknowns and mediocrities on the roster

I mean, I was sold on him as a hall of famer when he got interim Dodger manager Mattingly with the Mound double dip, getting a good pitcher out of the game.

One of my FB friends (big Giants fan) just posted a picture of Verlander in the dugout today, wearing a "Property of Pablo Sandoval" t-shirt.
Looks genuine, not 'shopped. If so, that is a whuppin' well taken, Mr. Verlander.

I'm now wondering how unusual it is to have a team return to the World Series after a short time and feature a much-changed lineup.

Cardinals from 2004 to 2006 retained only 3 of 8 positional starters (Pujols, Rolens, Edmonds).

Cardinals from 2004 to 2006 retained only 3 of 8 positional starters (Pujols, Rolens, Edmonds).

Easier to turn over the rest of the lineup when that's your core, though (though Edmonds had started to drop off by '06).

http://www.sbnation.com/2012/10/25/3555222/justin-verlander-pablo-sandoval-shirt-picture

Here is the photo.

http://www.sbnation.com/2012/10/25/3555222/justin-verlander-pablo-sandoval-shirt-picture

Here is the photo.

Gah, 'shopped. Too bad.

It all depends on whether we have any actual janitors here, but my roughly 18 (non-continuous) months might be in the running, this is exciting! (Please, no one crush my dream, I haven't won anything in a while).

Aren't you the poster who is like 0 for this century against his friends in chess? If so, yeah, we'll give you the "most experienced janitor" at BTF title.

Um, didn't Dag Nabbit write an entire manager-ranking book that was rather well-reviewed? I'm on my phone so I can't do more about the link or his actual name that I can't remember, so someone else will have to do that....

Evaluating Baseball’s Managers: A History and Analysis of Performance in the Major Leagues, 1876-2008. Buy Chris's book, people.

The section on Bochy is quite interesting; I remember being surprised by the evaluation of him when speaking to him at SABR in Atlanta. If he's getting attention for this run with the Giants, it's duly deserved after being relatively anonymous for a dozen years in San Diego.

Please, no one crush my dream, I haven't won anything in a while

I worked as a Janitor as a young lad (15?) for a bit as a part time job at a clothing store. My mom got me the job. You still the Janitorial man in my book.