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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Wednesday, July 27, 2011
Last night’s Meals on Weals game that will forever leave a mark on Pirate fans…
Did I stay up until 2 a.m. watching the Pirates-Braves game that ended on the most controversial call since Jim Joyce ruined Armando Galarraga’s perfect game?
Yes, I did.
And it was something.
Twitter exploded immediately, with sympathy coming from across the country for America’s team. A Pirates fan who has lived in Italy for 19 years was watching the game and tweeted me in horror. Other Pirates fans called it the worst Pirates loss since the “Sid Bream Game” in 1992. Page 2 writer and Pirates fan DJ Gallo wondered just exactly where home plate umpire Jerry Meals had to go at 2 a.m. Joe Sheehan wrote that baseball is a wonderful game that deserves better than its umpires.
I simply said the call made me sad.
You can watch the video of the play in the bottom of the 19th inning that gave the Braves the 4-3 win. You can see a photo here. And a better one here. People tweeted that they saw a replay that was 100 percent conclusive that catcher Michael McKenry tagged out Julio Lugo (yes, Julio Lugo is still in the majors)
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I think it was probably the wrong call. Just not anywhere near worst call ever.
And, just as the Braves should have overcome Hrbek's shove and Gregg's strikezone, the Pirates could have scored a run in the 17 innings and saved everyone the trouble.
I don't know - to me, the Youtube/MLB.com link(s) are damn convincing of the initial tag on the leg, and are quite suggestive that Lugo's arm/shoulder also is tagged as the catcher raises his glove.
Not "worst call ever", by any means (I would have to go with the Jeffrey Maier play there), but in my opinion, a total 100% incorrect call.
C. Martinez - 6 innings, 2 hits, 0 walks, 6 Ks. Impressive.
S. Proctor - 3 innings, 1 hit, 3 walks, 0 Ks. Not impressive.
The most shocking fact about last night's game is that in
ninethirteen at bats no Pirate launched a HR off of Scott Proctor's fastball.I'm not sure how you're watching it then because, if anything, the replays show conclusively that Lugo was never tagged on the arm/shoulder.
If you win the lottery, you haven't rightfully earned a damn cent, but that doesn't mean giddy celebration is inappropriate.
See...this is why everyone needs to understand visual perspective and how the mind creates a foregone conclusion. When I first saw it, like the Atlanta announcers, it looks like he hit the leg and then came up to hit the shoulder. But when they showed other replays, I went "Ok, that leg swipe might have missed, let's see if he hit the shoulder. Hey, wheres the shoulder tag?" There is no shoulder tag, he missed his shoulder by three feet. But the perspective of the first replay makes it look like he tagged the shoulder. And if that's wrong, then the leg tag can be wrong too.
Damn that catcher for trying to be cute. I've looked at these clips more than the Zapruder films.
and if he was 'probably out', then he 'might have been safe', which is all the Anti-Worst-Call-In-The-History-Of-Mankind people are saying.
That girl was amazing. The sheer level of stamina that she had completely boggled my mind. Also, despite the repetitiveness of her commentary and the shrillness of her voice, all I could think was "this girl is so much more listenable than Hawk Harrelson."
And the menstrual blood of their cousins. Straight from the tap, as it were.
Based on the uproar, I'm starting to wonder if a sizable portion of the population has a learning disability in this department.
That's what gets me. You have tons of room, why are you doing that swipe thing? F'ing shove the glove into his leg so hard it pushes him into the dugout. I don't get the purpose of the swipe tag.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfH-EUvpx34
One of the two cities involved in last night's OMG! game is located in Appalachia. The other is the capital of Georgia.
We're talking about the Pirates' catcher.
But if it were the Braves' backup catcher, it'd certainly be more plausible that he deliberately whiffed on the swipe tag. Since the runner was on his own team, and all.
Louisville? Sam's home is closer to Appalachia than Lou-uh-vul.
as a person who knows perspective and knows how to draw, i can say pretty confidently that a shocking number of people are deficient in this skill, and, what's worse, they don't know it.
as for the play ... i ... i ... jeez, i'm not entirely sure either. i've looked at several replays. all i can say is its entirely possible the catcher missed the swipe.
what i do know is this. worst call EVAH is the denkinger call, because of two things: the importance of the game, and the conclusiveness of the replays and photos. that call basically caused a cascade that cost the cardinals a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. and i'm not saying that just because i bleed cardinal red ...
Picking Louisville as the capital of Appalachia would be a bit like picking Moscow as the capital of Ukraine.
You know, I really meant Lexington
And just to clear up any potential confusion, I meant bad Sam, not good one.
It figures that a product of Atlanta's school system would say something like that.
He probably tagged him, based on Lugo's reaction. But the ump has to make the call immediately, not look at Lugo and go "oh, he thinks he's out, guess I'll call him out."
This, as they say. I'm starting to question even my own initial post now.
That's what gets me. You have tons of room, why are you doing that swipe thing? F'ing shove the glove into his leg so hard it pushes him into the dugout. I don't get the purpose of the swipe tag.
Probably because it wasn't out #3 and he wanted to be ready and able to get the third out somewhere to end the inning, I'd say.
What I learned from the 19 inning Braves/Pirates game by Grant Brisbee
In that situation the catcher HAS to get the out at the plate. To be thinking about a double play when the front end is a tag play is lunacy. Yeah, if you can do it, do it, but you have to make 110% certain you have out number one first.
Of course it's possible that Means was right, and I'll even agree that the "worst call ever" stuff is hyperbolic. But hinging the argument on the word "possible" ignores what is "likely". The throw beat the runner by a sizable margin, the runner slid short of the plate by several feet, and no evidence exists that the catcher missed the tag - there exists only evidence that is, if viewed with maximum charity towards Meals, inconclusive that he made the tag. Which is not the same thing.
In those circumstances, it seems irrational to me to be arguing on Meals's behalf, especially since Meals himself responded by basically throwing his hands up and saying "whatever." As far as anyone can reasonably tell, the runner should have been called out.
Isn't this backwards? Doesn't the evidence have to show that he MADE the tag?
But to be fair, we're talking 19 innings in 152% humidity. He saw a swipe tag that he thought missed. Bad call, but not the 'worst ever.'
I can't see this. Particularly since Schafer had gotten to third, there is significant value in being in position to throw to first and (theoretically) end the inning, and the swipe tag obviously helps toward that.
The catcher must get the call on this play >95% of the time. Didn't work out here, but I think the reaction has shown that calls like this are a rare exception.
If the catcher goes all out for the tag at home, doesn't throw to first, and then Prado singles in Schafer, he (McKenry) is getting killed today.
I had no idea that Louisville was in Appalachia from 1920 to 1990.
sigh.
The Orta call was in GAME 6, with the Cardinals holding a 3-2 lead in the Series and a 3-2 lead in the game. Horrendous call that left Orta at first base with none out - and the Cardinals holding a 3-2 lead in the Series and a 3-2 lead in the game.
so if Orta is properly called out, there is no chance that the Cardinals lose anyway, yet if he's called safe, then it's the umpire's fault if the Cardinals blow both games?
I could have cared less who won that Series, but it sure almost seemed before Game 7 that Whitey Herzog, his players, and many Cardinals fans seemed determined to ensure more than a quarter-century of whining by kicking away that game. Otherwise, sure there's a championship, but no one would remember the TERRIBLE CALL. Oh no!
Trivia(l): My wife's cousin played in that game (same last name as her maiden name as well), though I didn't meet her until a decade later.
No, we're arguing whether Meals made the right call or not, not whether or not replay should have overturned it in an alternate universe where MLB has instant replay. And in that argument, I think there's clear and convincing evidence that the runner should have been called out.
Which is? I mean, if the video doesn't show it, what is it you have that convinces you, much less clearly?
I completely agree that at full speed, he looked out and I wouldn't have been all that upset if he was called out and video clearly showed the tag was missed. It would have been an equally blown call but runners who are that much later than the ball generally don't get the breaks. And I'm sympathetic to the idea that, since he looked out at full speed and the video is inconclusive, a person might think, well, then, he was out.
But, again, what evidence is there, other than video, that the runner was tagged?
One of the Sams lives in Louisville, no?
Lexington? That's equally wrong.
I think the video shows a tag. Is it 100% conclusive? I'd say not. But all the angles I've seen look much more like a tag than they do not a tag. And I think it's borderline implausible (though not impossible) that he missed the tag when so many angles show what looks like a tag, and none of them show him missing it.
That, along with the other circumstances (e.g., throw beat him, slide was short of the plate, Lugo's reaction, Meals's postgame comments), make it seem like a rather extraordinary claim that he was actually safe. And I just don't see the evidence for such a claim to withstand scrutiny on any practical grounds.
Yes, good Sam is in Louisville, which is not as close to Appalachia as bad Sam's Atlanta is.
I don't like any interpretation of baseball rules where Lugo could ever be safe on that play. Ball gets to the catcher well before the runner. Catcher is in the baseline with the ball well up the line. Catcher and runner make contact. Short of the catcher dropping or not having control of the ball, Lugo is out with only incidental contact between them.
If the game allows the phantom touch of second base for double plays (for the safety of the players, presumably), plays at the plate shouldn't involve the catcher having to pin the runner to the ground and tag him for it to be definitively an out. Timing and position are enough to presume the eventuality of the play.
You could also talk me into ending the rundown -- another silly play in baseball. Once a runner reverses directions on the basepaths, it should be a forceout if the fielders touch both bases while having the ball. That is, runner between second and third, third baseman gets the ball. If the runner turns and heads back to second, if the third baseman can step on third and throw to second, its a force play at second.
This is the exact opposite of how I see it. At live speed, it looks WAY worse; the still frames might lead one to believe maybe Hrbek was just catching a falling baserunner, but someone watching the video and thinking Gant somehow ran him over would have to be blind.
It's the "Clermont" Hotel. And unfortunately for the world, it has been shut down by the city for being unfit for people to dwell in. However, the lounge is still open!
I think the video we have shows that he probably (barely) tagged him, but it's possible he didn't. But that, again, Lugo was so dead to rights that Meals has to be certain to call him safe.
Except that umps aren't supposed to deal in "likelihoods". They're supposed to get the call right. If "likelihoods" were allowed, the ump would look at Lugo and gauge his reaction before making the call.
Not to mention that the ump appears to be in good position and thus has an angle that we don't have.
I think given the rate at which umpires get tag plays wrong (it's pretty high) and given the usually significant difference in expected run scoring there is between an out and safe call (loss of a base runner and an out can exceed the value of a solo home run), I think there's a strong argument for replay on all plays of this kind -- at every base.
..and Lugo would have been out when their arms got tangled up.
A similar line of thought came up after the Posey play, and I still can't get on board. If you don't require a tag, then you've basically made every out a force play - I don't see how you can find a middle ground that wouldn't involve far greater umpire discretion (and, ultimately, more disagreement). And if you make everything a force play, you've basically eliminated the stolen base as an option, and probably reduce other plays that are among baseball's most exciting.
I'm fully open to the idea of getting rid of the intentional collisions, but I think the tag on non-forecouts needs to stay.
Replay sucks.
Instead of bogging the game down with endless reviews, just fire the umpires that suck and replace them with ones that don't. Seems simple enough.
Well, I suspect there's a human limitation involved. I don't think Meals is inept. I think that the call he had to make is just really hard to make.
The problem is, if Lugo isn't out on this play, where he clearly didn't try to score, and the catcher clearly had the ball, and applied the tag on a non-evading runner, then we are brought to a point where the catcher is obligated to flatten the runner on every play at the plate. Which you can be fine with, I suppose, but I'm not. I don't think it takes away the stolen base to allow both players to basically admit that the runner was out, which is what happened on this play. Both the catcher and the runner abandoned the play, before any attempt at a tag was even made, just like the runner will often pull out of the baseline on the neighborhood play at second, in the interest of player safety.
Haven't read past post 90 or so but I haven't seen a conclusive photo/video of the tag yet either.
I do feel for McKenry too. He had plenty of time to make sure of the tag and probably should have. But, in those spots, you always debate quickly whether going to tag Lugo a second time is only going to convince the ump you missed him the first time.
And the idea that there is no middle ground between the inept tag "applied" by the catcher in this play and flattening the runner is crazy. Fielders tag runners all the time without pinning them down and without leaving any doubt whatsoever that a tag was made.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Am I arguing that umpires should take players' reactions into account when making a call? No. Is that implied by what I've written? No. I'm making an argument as someone who has the benefit of hindsight, not as an umpire who had to make the call at the time.
But I will say this: if an umpire isn't sure - and Meals clearly wasn't ("I'm guessing he might have got him, but when I was out there when it happened I didn't see a tag," he said afterwards) - I'd rather him make a call that is likely right and turn out to be wrong, than a call that is likely wrong and turn out to be wrong.
Big deal. Umps get calls wrong all the time when they have good angles. I'm willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt - I'm not saying he should be fired for this one call or anything - but the evidence does not suggest he was right. It merely suggests that it's not 100% certain he was wrong.
Or, you just acknowledge that sometimes the ump will miss the call and you move on. It doesn't mean you have to change longstanding rules about the way the game is played (changes that will surely have some unintended consequences), or that some new level of runner-flattening is required just because Jerry Meals missed a weak tag at 2 a.m.
Well, sure. I agree. I meant my point more in response to those arguing that perhaps the call wasn't wrong.
Pretty much exactly what I was going to say.
Once in awhile there's a play like this on a steal of second, where the fielder times the sweep a little wrong, and doesn't quite touch the runner, and everybody freaks out.
Umpires blow calls sometimes, of course they do. But Meals was positioned properly to see a tag, and he didn't see a tag.
I see no purpose served by permitting home plate collisions.
This seems to be the thing a lot of the people using this play as an example of baseball needing instant replay seem to be missing- using the NFL/NHL standard of indisputable proof, this play couldn't possibly have been overturned. If anything, having seen the play live as it happened, all the replays I've seen since haven't done anything but create more doubt in my head- I was sure Lugo was out initially but now I'm at least skeptical.
Amen to this.
you think i don't know what game it was? and the score was 1-0. what i said was it started a cascade. and i can get my head around the idea that anything can happen going forward, so it doesn't necessarily follow that the cards are guaranteed the win. but if the call is correct, the probability is dam high that they take the game and the WS. that's what makes the call so egregious. the stakes were really really high.
But it almost certainly would have been. The replay official (whoever that might be) would look at it, say "uh-oh", and overturn it based on the angle that looked like the highest probability of a tag. And no one would have cared one bit, because anyone who would have continued to argue that it's not 100% certain that the tag would look like a total crank on a play where the throw beat the runner by 1.6 miles and was likely tagged out several feet in front of the plate.
People need to watch more NFL if they think this call couldn't have been reversed by those standards. "Indisputable" is knocked down to "high degree of certainty" all the time, and it bothers no one except for the announcers who are apparently contractually obligated to have the exact same argument about what "indisputable" means every time there's a close play under review. Once the review is over, everyone moves on and it's quickly forgotten unless Peter King has an axe to grind the next morning.
I will promise to disagree with the call if I don't have to watch the ####### NFL. No excuse for making an hour-long game take three hours. ####### unbearable.
It doesn't.
This is 2011, not 1980.
I'm sympathetic, but I'm also pretty sure a line drive, no matter how looping, can't land four feet in front of a first baseman who's actually on the infield. Especially on a softball diamond. A 56-foot looping hit can't really be considered a liner.
Not that it can't be a base hit, mind you.
The call he had to make was easy. Lots of people in this thread made it correctly. The only reason it was hard for him is that he's inept.
This isn't the only thing Meals ###### up this game, just the most visible. His strike zone was incredibly inconsistent all game, for example, with the end result of McLouth and Fredi Gonzalez getting tossed in the 9th.
I don't know how, but it died awfully quick. Besides, you also can't call the Infield fly Rule with just a runner on first.
It's a moot point because McKenry tagged him.
I do.
I oppose it because to make it work you either have to invite more subjectivity into the play (How much does the ball have to beat the runner by for a probabilistic approach to take hold? Does it vary by umpire?) or you have to simply eliminate tag plays altogether. Neither seems like a good fix.
And while Best Dressed correctly notes that the neighborhood play doesn't really exist any longer, I just don't see those things as being the same. On the neighborhood play, the offensive team had no say in the outcome - the ball beat the runner on a force, the only question is whether you want to require the fielder to be on the bag the time the throw was caught (it honestly never bothered me). But on tag plays, the runner can take evasive action to avoid the out, often in quite entertaining fashion. I don't think that particular skill should be removed from the contest.
But as I said earlier, I'm all in favor of getting rid of collisions. I don't see how they're necessary or consistent with the rest of the way the game is played.
I've seen plenty of plays in the NFL and NHL where the action in question was even clearer than this one was that weren't overturned because the replay still didn't remove any doubt that the official got it right- from every replay I've seen, there's nothing that shows the catcher clearly tagged Lugo and using the NFL/NHL standard, that is what you would need.
I'm not saying Lugo wasn't out, just that the replays don't remove all doubt that he wasn't out and that is the standard instant replay would impose. Look at any Fox NFL game this season and whenever an instant replay situation comes up, Mike Pereira will show exactly why a given replay won't be overturned due to it's inconclusive nature.
No, here's the worst call ever. My 11-12 YO little league team last year. Top of the 6th (last inning), score tied, runners on second and third, one out. We are the home team, thus on defense. Batter hits a popup to short center. Runner on third lights out for home at the crack of the bat. My CF catches the ball, throws to third for an inning ending double play. The team trots in, I run out of the dugout to congratulate them for a fine play. Next thing I notice is the other team cheering wildly, jumping up an down, and lining up to shake hands. The umps are nowhere to be seen. I ask the other coach what is going on, he says, "We won." I say (words to the effect) "Like hell, your runner was out, and besides, we are the home team. You can't win yet, even if the run counted" He says, "Well, the umps said we won, and they took off. It's in the books."
1) It's entirely reasonable to think he missed the tag.
2) The runner is probably called out 99.9% of the time when the throw beats him by that much and the catcher comes that close to tagging him. Sort of like phantom base touches.
I do. But that's fair. You can tell how much baseball I watch these days -- I watched a ton more in my youth (late 80s, early 90s) where the neighborhood play was horribly abused and infuriated me to no end.
I see tag plays as infrequent and incredibly error-prone, even in obvious circumstances as this one.
yes. And when the call was made incorrectly, the probability still was dam high - though not as high - that they take the game and the WS.
No team can plausibly say, "We are such championship material that one terrible call at first base to a leadoff batter in Game 6 when we have a 1-0 lead and our preferred pitcher on the mound in the 9th inning would be enough to send us into such a collective schoolgirl snit that we can't field, hit, or pitch worth a damn for the final 10 innings of pitiful play."
#deliberaterunonsentence
How much baseball do you watch? I see it at least once a week.
We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this, I would say the vast majority of NFL replays that I've ever seen that were actually in doubt are not overturned solely due to the replays being inconclusive.
And yet you watch baseball.
I think the NFL replay guys are less afraid to overturn a call based on preponderance of the evidence, though it may not be overwhelmingly clear, than most announcers seem to think.
Oh, I think MLB games take way too damn long, too. (I am occasionally audible on A's radio broadcasts yelling things like "Babe Ruth's dead! PITCH the ball already!")
But to have a rigidly-timed game, with a clock, that takes three times as long to play as the "clock" time? Awful. Horrendous. Stupid. Etc.
The game went 19 ####### innings and the Pirates got shut out for like eight of them by Christhian Martinez and Scott Proctor. That has more to do with them losing than one bad call, anyhow.
Oh, and Re: 196, if you ever hear a guy go apeshit and start screaming insults at the pitcher after he's thrown the ball to first base a third time in a row, that's probably me.
You may make the case that the runner seemed to be out.
You may not make the case that the video/replay evidence is conclusive. It's simply not.
As such, you may not make the case that this is a shining example of how baseball would benefit from more replays.
The umpire who made the call had...wait for it...wait for it...the best seat in the house! to view that play. He also had final authority on any overturning of the play, as the HP ump (assuming it's not he crew chief there.)
Adding technology into the ball/strike mix seems like a good idea to me. Adding technology such as the tennis "eye" laser onto foul lines seems like a good idea. Turning this play into a replay rehash that delays a 19th inning game until 2:30 AM is just fcuking bad idea all around.
Especially when the runner at first is somebody like Jack ####### Cust. GAH.
What a terrible call - hopefully the Pirates should be able to bounce back.
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