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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Wednesday, July 27, 2011
Last night’s Meals on Weals game that will forever leave a mark on Pirate fans…
Did I stay up until 2 a.m. watching the Pirates-Braves game that ended on the most controversial call since Jim Joyce ruined Armando Galarraga’s perfect game?
Yes, I did.
And it was something.
Twitter exploded immediately, with sympathy coming from across the country for America’s team. A Pirates fan who has lived in Italy for 19 years was watching the game and tweeted me in horror. Other Pirates fans called it the worst Pirates loss since the “Sid Bream Game” in 1992. Page 2 writer and Pirates fan DJ Gallo wondered just exactly where home plate umpire Jerry Meals had to go at 2 a.m. Joe Sheehan wrote that baseball is a wonderful game that deserves better than its umpires.
I simply said the call made me sad.
You can watch the video of the play in the bottom of the 19th inning that gave the Braves the 4-3 win. You can see a photo here. And a better one here. People tweeted that they saw a replay that was 100 percent conclusive that catcher Michael McKenry tagged out Julio Lugo (yes, Julio Lugo is still in the majors)
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Honestly, though, I can't remember the last time I saw a throw beat the runner by that much without the runner being called out.
By the way, this is great for baseball in general. There's nothing like a controversial call at the end of a long extra inning game to get people talking about the sport again. I'm hoping the Pirates overcome this and start winning again.
It would have been far preferable to the travesty that occurred.
Yes, it is. One look at Lugo's reaction alone will tell you that. He didn't even freaking touch the plate until after he was called safe. He then rushed to do so.
Moreover, umpires call him out there 999 times out of 1000. They see that the ball beats the runner and that it looks like the tag was made, and that's that.
That's what makes the fact that the Pirates will lose the protest interesting. "We blew the call, but we are overruling your protest."
If the Pirates need to make a rules-based argument, perhaps they should argue that Meals didn't understand the rule that if the runner is tagged out before he reaches the plate, he is out and does not get to score. Because Meals didn't seem to understand this.
Also the rule that even though it's 2am, you still have to bother to do your bleeping job. Meals seems to have been confused about this as well.
Torre said Meals said he got it wrong, but the only time I saw Meals quoted on this, he didn't say anything close to "I got it wrong." Did he add something more recently?
I thought Lugo touched the plate after he popped up from his slide, then touched it again after Meals made the call.
What bothers me more than these bad calls (and how bad this one is is debatable) is that we keep seeing umpires who routinely make bad calls on the bases and have lousy confusing strike zones and get confrontational in arguments and so on and so forth, and there seems to be no accountability, and no way of making things right.
Meals, Eddings, West, Angel Hernandez, CB Bucknor ... why are these men employed to do this? If you suck as a player, you wash out, unless you are Jeff Mathis. Keeping these guys on as umps is like giving Mathis a lifetime contract. It makes no sense. And as a consequence the game is harmed.
He does. Apparently Ray can't be bothered with actually watching the play and ascertaining the facts before running off in his high moral dudgeon of stupidity.
Corey Patterson just got promoted to starting CF for the Cards.
Union.
To be clear, what the video shows:
1. The ball beats Lugo to the plate by a lot.
2. Lugo goes into his slide early.
3. McKenry swipes a tag attempt at Lugo.
4. Meals makes no call. (He later says the tag missed the runner, which is consistent with his actions here.)
5. Lugo's pop-up slide brings him to a standing position ON THE PLATE.
6. Meals signals him safe.
7. Lugo, unsure of the call, makes a second tag of home while Meals is signalling "safe."
Anyone who pays attention to the video wouldn't be unclear on this.
I assume Torre spoke to Meals about it.
What are you watching? The contrarians at this site often piss me off. But in this case it is ridiculous. Lugo was so clearly out it is ridiculous. Anyone that watches any angle of the replay and can't figure that out is quite frankly either an idiot or an @sshole. Sorry. But it is true.
WELL JESUS HOW COULD ANYBODY MISS THAT????!?!????!!!!?
The throw beat the runner by 8 feet and by aproximately 3 seconds and the tag was clearly made. How could anyone miss that???? Are you that big an idiot? No one should have missed that.....
You're welcome to your opinion, even if it is wrong.
Generally I think people are welcome to their opinion.... But when it is so conclusively, irrevocably wrong..... Well..... What can you say....... The replay evidence was conclusive. Only someone with their head in the sand (or up their ###) thinks otherwise. Lugo was out.
Seeing as how happy you are, I probably shouldn't mention that I was just working in reverse. It could have been any other Sam - Adams, Houston, the Butcher, the Bam Cunningham, the Son of - and he would have qualified as the "good one" in comparison to Mr. Hutcheson.
1) I'm watching what many other people on this thread are watching, and concluding the same thing that many (but not all) are.
2) #### off back to the ESPN boards or whatever rock you crawled out from under.
Yes, you are watching what some on this board that want to be contrarians want to see.....
But everyone else in the world including Meals and Torre see the truth. A blown call.
One thing: I didn't crawl out from a rock. You are the one that need to crawl under a rock in this dicsussion.
No one that isn't an idiot doesn't think this was a blown call. Alas, if you are sticking to this view you must be an idiot.
Well, there's that . . . .
The contrarian nature of the conversation around here doesn't usually piss me off; indeed, it is often the thing that keeps it interesting. But I will say that the fact that both MLB and the umpire have confessed error should surely put the debate to bed, and anyone who still maintains that Lugo wasn't out (or, in language that might make Hutcheson less whiny, that Lugo shouldn't have been called out) has me shaking me head. Since the guy who made the call has given up the ghost, his defenders should probably stand down, too.
And frankly when you have John Kruk AND Michael Kay in your camp, you might want to reassess your choices too.
That's a far fukking cry from "Every angle shows this was the worst blown call in the history of MLB" It's not contrarian. It's wanting to arrive at the truth and strip away the hyperbole...which I kinda thought was the point of this site....well, that and posting comic book covers.
oh, and another thing...all this "If the Pirates miss the post-season by one game..!!" The Pirates were not assured of winning that game if the correct call is made.
I don't think Meals made the right call. But I do think it was the kind of call that you simply can't expect the umpire to get right 100% of the time (even with instant replay). Sure, many umpires would have called Lugo out simply because the throw beat him by such a wide margin, but that would be the *wrong* way to make the call. The only right way to make that call is to watch for the actual tag. Meals did that, and what resulted was a judgment call that nobody gets right 100% of the time.
It took Lugo three seconds to travel eight feet? No wonder he was out!
And though I can't quite match Misirlou's worst call ever, I did see the infield fly rule called on a 275 foot fly ball in a HS game last season. The ball was hit VERY high, but I still don't think the SS could have made the play with ordinary effort. Fortunately for the ump, the LFer did.
EDIT -- also, I did not realize that Scott Proctor's right arm was still attached to his body; good for him.
They're going to be swept by Philadelphia, at which point they'll be 53-52, 4 games out and riding a five game losing streak (and 5-9 since the break.) On July 31. Lose a few more games and we're right back to 7,000 fans a night. If there was ever a perfect storm for a panic trade, right there it is, fellas.
Sad to say that this is probably going to happen. But they were never expected to contend this year anyway.
Is wagering permitted on BBTF?
I'll play the contrarian here..
Obviously it is a bit of a hyperbole but even if they lose a few or more their attendance from here on out will still be high. Now whether or not they all show up will be a different story.
They're going to be swept by Philadelphia, at which point they'll be 53-52, 4 games out and riding a five game losing streak
You're missing one more game against the Braves.
I see no reason to believe that the Brewers or the Cardinals are going to win all of their games as well as the Pirates getting swept by the Phillies. Granted they are playing the Astros and the Cubs so it is quite possible.
I would guess that after the Phillies series the Pirates are two to three games out of first. At which point they get to play 4 games against the Cubs and then three against the Padres.
After that comes the make or break part of their schedule and for the most part the rest of the division as well. The Pirates have 3 against the Giants and then have 7 games against the Brewers, 7 games against the Cardinals, and 3 games against the Reds. They finish August with 3 games against the Astros.
I'm thinking August is the month where the Pirates finish about 7 games back by the end of it.
If Jerry Meals had his Colonel Jessup Moment, I believe that's exactly what he'd say.
"You're godddamn right I saw he was out!! But it was 2am and these are the ####### Pirates, and they were never expected to contend this year anyway. I did my job and I'd do it again! This is funny! I'm going to get on a plane and go ump my next series!"
On the other hand, I AM the designated driver. I don't drink, and I drove professionally (taxis and busses) for 7 years without accident. My eyesight is good. On the other hand, there is no way I would have noticed Lugo's pants leg moving on that replay video. The umpire must have been really obsessing over his call.
Oh, and one big thing about the Denkinger call that is never mentioned is that it was partially the result of having the wrong first baseman in there. All year long, Whitey had replaced Jack Clark with Mike Jorgensen in late games with a lead, because Mike was a much better defensive first baseman. That would happen at the same time that he put Tom Nieto (I think it was Nieto) out there to catch. But in that particular game, Whitey has said that he was just afraid of losing Jack's bat, so he didn't put Mike in when he put Tom in. Jack made a clumsy play, although everyone I know of (including Denkinger) agrees that Orta was out by at least half a step. But Jorgensen probably makes a better play, impossible to miss. If I remember right, there's also a foul popup in that inning (Balboni?) that Jack failed to catch that Mike very likely would have (I remember Jack looking like he was worried about stepping on the tarp or something). So that one is partially Whitey's fault, for not "dancing with the one who brought him." - Brock
Sorry to say, this thread is a reminder to me of why I left Athletics Nation after being over there for it's first few years. Some of the personal and absurd comments some of you folks make because people don't agree with you is just....shocking. Am I wrong? Didn't BBTF used to be more civil, more open-minded, more philosphical and fun-dickheaded (as opposed to flat-out mean-dickheaded)? Snark is fun, attacks and insults aren't. Discussion and differing viewpoints are beuatiful things. It's how we open communication and understanding and plain learn and have fun. Some of you are sucking all the entertainment out of it by being borderline sociopathic and resorting to insults and petty semantic arguements when people don't agree with you and want to sincerely dicsuss baseball. Just in the last few months I've also been told to "go back to the ESPN boards", which is funny as I've never been there. Been told my opinion isn't much and I should STFU because I'm new around here (although I've been around for YEARS....way before it was BBTF) by, what I used to think, were pretty level-headed and respected members of this community. Don't fall in the fashion of AN and all that garbage. Encourage differing viewpoints. Encourage discussion. Quit taking yourselves so ####### seriously that you resort to pettiness and go back to enjoying conversation more than arguing. If it isn't up to "your" level, then forgive those beneath you, ignore them, and move on. Sorry to interrupt. Carry on. ####.
if the umpires are going to routinely #### the Pirates on calls (and they do), the least we can do is force them to fill out some paperwork and look embarrassed in front of a camera once in a while.
I would rather have the ump make the right call the wrong way than whatever the #### it is Meals did yesterday.
Nope. He's trained to make the call confidently and in a timely fashion. It's not quite the same thing as immediately. You have very little time for reflection, but you do have a little.
As I know I've mentioned before I reffed a lot of high level touch football which features an endless succession of the plays. Player body language is very reliable when it goes against the player. That is to say that if Lugo acts as tough he wag tagged, it's an extremely good bet he was.
And that's as good as you're going to get without a frame by frame review (with multiple angles to choose from). Catcher's reaction on the play tells you nothing.
I have to say though that this undermines my position on replay. I really do want them to take the time to get right a game ending play. And the monent the 20 minute review comes into the game for any reason, it's only a matter of time before it becomes the norm.
Depends on the context you're talking about. The critics of the call should be able to give conclusive evidence of a tag. But in the game situation the umpire isn't likely to ever be cerain when it comes to tag plays. So very frequently there's just no good way to position yourself so that you can see everything. You take your best shot. Default is not "safe unless I see a tage though.
I was just being all rural. But in that group, maybe it's the least so of the three. Congratulations.
1) I regret the \"#### off" part of my previous post.
2) That said, I was responding to someone who had jumped into the thread, combatively said "Anyone that watches any angle of the replay and can't figure that out is quite frankly either an idiot or an @sshole." (And has since admitted (#227) that he's probably not very objective.)
3) I find it interesting that Nutbag chose to hold my post up for opprobrium (which it deserved), and not the one I was responding to (which also deserved it) -- especially when if memory serves Nutbag jumped headfirst into a thread in the same bomb-throwing manner as haven not all that long ago.
EDIT: two/three, whatever. :)
SI has on its list of 11 worst blown calls: The Pappas near-perfect game.
/facepalm.
Bravo.
Exactly; Meals probably got the play wrong, but he actually did a pretty dang good job of TRYING to get the call right, in that he was waiting on the actual tag, rather that just saying "throw beat him: out."
If you have to freeze frame a replay and zoom in to try and get to a definitive point of contact, you are almost certainly wrong that a call is egregiously bad. Wrong, yes. Egregious, no.
EDIT: To quote Pos: "You will almost certainly see a more obviously missed call at some point today."
That's another problem- you really do not want catchers blocking the plate and mugging runners like they did in the 70s/80s- and yet you may get that if a couple visible blown call like this one get made
You see this sometimes on plays where the catcher misses the tag and the runner misses home: the ump just stands there, because there's no call to make yet.
And contrary to the angry chorus here, this is all anyone has ever argued. Hell, even I never said he got the call *right.* The strongest point made by anyone on the non-Pirates fan* side of the aisle is that the play wasn't nearly as cut and dried as people were making it out to be. Meals and MLB, after reviewing video for gods know how long, finally decided that they saw a pant leg slightly move on one angle.
That's not "THE WORST CALL EVAR!!!" and that's not the sort of thing you want to drop into a game scenario; the pitcher just sort of playing long toss with the catcher for half an hour while the umps debate whether or not the leg of a pant is moving from a tag or from the momentum of the runner.
This is a good case *against* instant replay.
*And Ray, who has apparently decided to use this event as a release valve for some of his pent up paranoid delusional lunacy.
*possibly apocryphal
Okay, well that's just wrong.
Never thought I would say this to Nieporent, but: Yes, exactly.
You should probably recognize your error, and the passion of your fandom taking you down untoward alleys of thinking, when you agree with David and Ray.
In the 19th inning of a six hour game, yeah, I'd have definitely called him out. Ball beat the runner by a mile. I'd have half-assed that call. I'm sort of impressed that Meals was still engaged enough to make a judgement call on the swipe.
Quoted for irony.
Conversely, you should probably "recognize your error, and the passion of your fandom taking you down untoward alleys of thinking" when even Ray and David have stumbled across to the correct side of an issue, while you're still lost in the weeds.
Irony? Please explain? Check that thread again, I do my damnedest to find a way to discuss my observation without offending anyone. Not good enough, then my apologies. I can sit here knowing I made an honest effort. I can also sit here knowing I made an honest effort to thouroughly understand the other poster's points. So do please explain the irony bit there, I cede to your knowledge and humbly ask you to enlighten me. Honestly.
EDIT: In re-reading that thread, many people also see me as trying hard not to offend anyone and merely make an observation.....if it's personal with you, my apologies. Again, your earlier post was only quoted because it was at that point I had the thought and it was easy (see: lazy) for me to just grab that one as an example. I didn;t mean to isolate it completely.
"Sox fans: You realize over the last 10 years or so you've become the very thing you (collectively) spent almost 100 years hating? Yankee fans now show infinitely more class. The Red Sox have gone to complete ass-hattery."
...followed later in the post by "From an outsider (non yankee/sox fan), you (again, collectively, I understand there are exceptions) have become some of the worst, seemingly most arrogant & ignorant fans (with a warped sense of entitlement!) that I have ever encountered."
Yeah, you qualified it with "collectively" yet still managed to imply that the "good" fans are the exception. That's bomb throwing. Might be your sincere opinion, and I'm sure you've witnessed bad acting on the part of RS fans, but that's still what it is.
I am officially done addressing this old topic that I'm sure no one besides us gives a rat's ass about.
Semi-serious. You were essentially bragging about your humility.
Well, the arm goes down, touches him on the leg, then withdraws. What else would you call it?
Getting to first base?
My position is "the ball was there so early, and the play close enough, I'd have probably called him out based on sheer laziness. Meals actually bothered to get in position and make a reasonably defensible call in live-action, that the swipe tag missed the runner, and thus the runner was safe."
Your position seems to be "wah wah wah the Pirates lost wah wah wah." Or something like that. You are arguing that there exists in the video replay conclusive evidence that quite simply does not exist in the video replay. I can only surmise that you are seeing what you want to see, rather than what is there. That's no great crime. It happens all the time. But you're wrong. The video is inconclusive in virtually every way. You can't say definitively yes or no to any question, based on the replays we've seen. Which means it's umpire's discretion, and he said the tag missed the runner in real time. C'est la vie.
Ray's position seems to be that Meaks intentionally called the runner safe because he wanted to end the game. He manages to throw paranoid conspiracy theory into the mix, whereas I think you're just viewing the data as a fan first. As such, Ray is crazier than you.
David is just being an insufferable contrarian prick, as is his wont.
well ... as a bona fide contrarian, all i'm going to ask is, is it not entirely possible that lugo's pant leg could move simply from the force of his slide or the breeze of the swipe tag missing? is that not possible? that's all i'm asking. not that i necessarily believe that. i'm just asking.
well that was before serious nut jobs got on here and dissed modern art you pathetic philistine. :)
My position is that the ball beat Lugo, Lugo was tagged out well before he touched the plate, Lugo acted like he had been tagged out well before he touched the plate, and Meals would have called Lugo out if it had been 8pm instead of 2am.
----------------
It doesn't.
This is 2011, not 1980.
--------------------
How much baseball do you watch? I see it at least once a week.
Well, I can't argue with what you think you see. I watch parts of a few games a week. Less than many others, I'm sure. Regardless, what I see are middle infielders who are very deft at just grazing the edge of the bag on their way past it. Is it possible they sometimes miss by a couple inches? Sure, but based on the chances I get to see these plays from the right angle in slow motion, I think it's very rare. We never see guys a foot or more off the bag getting the call, like we used to, which was the original meaning of "phantom tags."
What's your definition of many people? Because except for some people on this thread it seems pretty universal that everyone else thinks it was a horrible call and the tag was clear.
Yes, I can. I've done it repeatedly throughout this thread. If you'd like me to do it again, here it is: Yes, he was safe. It was such an obvious call that Meals should be taken out behind the stadium and beaten with an assortment of lead pipes in order to provide him with sufficient incentive to not #### up similarly obvious calls in the future. The correct call is immediately obvious upon watching the play on video, at speed, for the first time, and does not become any less obvious with more detailed examination. McKenry tagged Lugo, full stop.
This may or may not be true. I don't think there's conclusive evidence of it, but I wouldn't dismiss it as a possibility out of hand, either.
If David were just being a contrarian, wouldn't he be on your side, since it's the minority position?
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