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Sunday, September 10, 2017

Scout trashes Yankees’ Gary Sanchez for laziness behind plate | NJ.com

A comparison of breaking pitches with Romine and Sanchez would make for an interesting study. Sanchez does get lazy back there. Do Yankees pitchers adjust to Sanchez by changing either their aggressiveness below the strike zone or their mix of pitches?

“Sanchez has got a ways to go defensively, and I knew it all along,” a Major League scout for an opposing club told NJ Advance Media. “He gets very lazy. He wants to reach instead of shifting his feet. He tries to get away with stuff because of his strong arm.”

How big a problem is this?

“I’ll tell you what,” the scout said. “I’ll go on the record right now and say it: For the playoffs, you watch, Austin Romine will catch more than Sanchez. Romine doesn’t have much of an arm, but he’s the better catcher.”

(Edited: Oh boy. I need to take a few more seconds before hitting the submit button. And no, unfortunately, I was not drunk when I made the original post. )

Jim Furtado Posted: September 10, 2017 at 09:14 AM | 93 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: gary sanchez, yankees

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   1. Jose is an Absurd Doubles Machine Posted: September 10, 2017 at 11:16 AM (#5529259)
As a Red Sox fan I heartily endorse Romine playing catcher and Sanchez on the bench.

Sanchez is a bad pitch blocker there is no doubt about that but I would trade that for his bat and frankly his arm which is very good also.
   2. Randomly Fluctuating Defensive Metric Posted: September 10, 2017 at 11:47 AM (#5529271)
It's footwork and mechanics, not laziness, probably correctable by next season with an emphasis in Spring Training. In the meantime, I wish anonymous scout all the luck in the world becoming an anonymous GM while trashing a twenty-four year old catcher who may already be the best in his league.
   3. bigglou115 is not an Illuminati agent Posted: September 10, 2017 at 11:55 AM (#5529273)
“Sanchez has got a ways to go defensively, and I knew it all along,


Something about this has me picturing this scout calling in his interview from his basement office with a big corkboard in front of him with pictures of Sanchez all over it, multicolored string attaching pictures in a spiderweb and illegible scribbles all but obscuring the content of the photos. Above it all in big and neat handwriting "HE'S LAZY!"
   4. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: September 10, 2017 at 12:04 PM (#5529276)
Sanchez is bad at blocking balls in the dirt, no question, but he's also above average at throwing and pitch framing. Overall, at worst, he's average defensively.

Anonymous scout is a ####.

Also, where can I put money down against this nonsense:
I’ll go on the record right now and say it: For the playoffs, you watch, Austin Romine will catch more than Sanchez
   5. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 10, 2017 at 12:28 PM (#5529281)
For the playoffs, you watch, Austin Romine will catch more than Sanchez.

As others have noted, that's just not happening. If Matt Holliday were still out, maybe Sanchez gets some DH time, but Holliday finally seems healthy again (1.020 September OPS), and should be at DH in the playoffs. If the Yanks make the playoffs (likely), Sanchez will play unless injured.
   6. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 10, 2017 at 12:33 PM (#5529282)
And people still get upset that teams are firing scouts...even if Sanchez is as bad at blocking pitches in the dirt as the scout says, the importance that the scout seems to put on that one specific aspect of the game in relation to everything else that Sanchez brings to the table is ridiculous. If the scout really thinks that blocking pitches is so important that Romine would play over Sanchez, that suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the game of baseball.
   7. Greg K Posted: September 10, 2017 at 12:46 PM (#5529284)
I’ll go on the record right now and say it: For the playoffs, you watch, Austin Romine will catch more than Sanchez

Like, 7 innings vs. 2 innings?
   8. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 10, 2017 at 01:13 PM (#5529290)
Sanchez has been benched this season, with Girardi noting that he's extended some pitch counts for the relievers.

There's something in Sanchez relaxed manner that could come off as lazy because of some results, but as suggested above, its mechanics that can be worked on in the offseason. Im not sitting him in favor of Romine regardless.
   9. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 10, 2017 at 01:14 PM (#5529291)
Catching is hard. Many of the best (Yadi Molina, Yaz Grandal) have bad days sometimes.
   10. Chase Insteadman Wannabe Posted: September 10, 2017 at 02:03 PM (#5529303)
I think it is pretty clear what the Yankees have to do. First, they have to master the science of resurrecting the dead. Then you just have Bill Dickey mentor Sanchez the way he did Yogi Berra. Or, I suppose, just play the risen Dickey at catcher and move Sanchez to first base. I don't know, though, man. Cheating the rules of life and death in order to strengthen your lineup feels wrong somehow. Best to keep it to the coaching staff.
   11. Walt Davis Posted: September 10, 2017 at 04:37 PM (#5529374)
Just resurrect Yogi then.
   12. dejarouehg Posted: September 10, 2017 at 04:38 PM (#5529375)
It's footwork and mechanics, not laziness,
Curious as to how you are so sure about this. My guess, and it's clearly a guess, is that it is as much laziness as mechanics.

Catching is hard. Many of the best (Yadi Molina, Yaz Grandal) have bad days sometimes
Defensively, this is like comparing vegetables to dessert. He has a great arm and, other than that, his defensive game is awful. Maybe, just maybe, Yadi might have a bad game defensively. Sanchez has horrendous strings of games defensively.

With all that said, he is more than welcome to saunter over to Flushing at his own leisurely pace and spend the next decade+ in a Mets uniform.




   13. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 10, 2017 at 05:04 PM (#5529390)
Just resurrect Yogi then.


You have to go away if you want to come back.
   14. Randomly Fluctuating Defensive Metric Posted: September 10, 2017 at 05:29 PM (#5529398)
12. Because it has happened in some important, late-game situations. That points to a guy who simply can't get his body in proper position, possibly because he is such a large man. This is not to undersell that it is an issue and Sanchez may need to adjust to the mental burden required of a catcher also asked to produce in the middle of the line-up.
   15. Captain Supporter Posted: September 10, 2017 at 05:58 PM (#5529405)
“I’ll tell you what,” the scout said. “I’ll go on the record right now and say it: For the playoffs, you watch, Austin Romine will catch more than Sanchez. Romine doesn’t have much of an arm, but he’s the better catcher.”


I think there is still a place in the game for scouts, but this kind of thing makes you wonder. Having said that, I always wonder about the honesty of any reporter quoting an anonymous source. He could either have made up the quote entirely or taken it way out of context. I treat all anonymous quotes as highly suspect.
   16. rconn23 Posted: September 10, 2017 at 06:09 PM (#5529408)
Sanchez hit two bombs today for 30 on the season. He also missed a month. I'll take that wager any day from this scout that Romine will play more catcher if the Yankees make a playoff run.
   17. PreservedFish Posted: September 10, 2017 at 06:54 PM (#5529423)
If the scout really thinks that blocking pitches is so important that Romine would play over Sanchez, that suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the game of baseball.


Scouts are usually going to favor an explanation of baseball that validates their existence.
   18. Walt Davis Posted: September 10, 2017 at 08:09 PM (#5529445)
It's like they never watched Posada.
   19. dejarouehg Posted: September 11, 2017 at 08:06 AM (#5529504)
Obviously, there is NO WAY that Sanchez will not be playing in a post-season game, but I can absolutely see them putting him at DH.

I assume it was mainly because of injury, but didn't the Mets play Pratt over Piazza years ago?
   20. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 11, 2017 at 08:43 AM (#5529515)
Obviously, there is NO WAY that Sanchez will not be playing in a post-season game, but I can absolutely see them putting him at DH.

You're really going to put Romine's 55 OPS+ in there over a league average hitter (Holliday, Ellsbury, Frazier) because you're worried about a passed-ball?

Sanchez is a good defensive catcher otherwise.
   21. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 11, 2017 at 08:48 AM (#5529516)
Defensively, this is like comparing vegetables to dessert. He has a great arm and, other than that, his defensive game is awful.

Not true. His pitch framing is about average, by the stats. His arm is excellent: 33 CS vs 55 SB for his career.

He's only bad at blocking pitches. This is the same BS we saw with Piazza. He had a poor arm, and was good at everything else, so got branded an awful catcher.
   22. Cris E Posted: September 11, 2017 at 09:16 AM (#5529523)
I’ll go on the record right now and say it
I knew it all along
you watch


Did you read that other article about scouts that are being drawn from the blogging world? This reeks of that.
   23. dejarouehg Posted: September 11, 2017 at 09:21 AM (#5529525)
It's not BS. The pitchers will be reluctant to throw to him if they have to fear throwing a breaking ball and you can bet real $ that Girardi will think long and hard about it as well. There were certainly post-season games he played over a superior offensive player because he was the better defensive catcher.
   24. Rally Posted: September 11, 2017 at 09:21 AM (#5529526)
I’ll go on the record right now and say it: For the playoffs, you watch, Austin Romine will catch more than Sanchez


This brings back memories of Jeff Mathis playing ahead of Napoli in 2009. Strangest thing is, that is not why the Angels lost to the Yankees. Napoli was 1 for 9 in the series, Mathis 7 for 12 with 5 doubles, one of them an extra inning walkoff.
   25. Darren Posted: September 11, 2017 at 09:25 AM (#5529528)
“I’ll tell you what,” the scout (who has chosen to remain anonymous) said. “I’ll go on the record right now and say it: For the playoffs, you watch, Austin Romine will catch more than Sanchez. Romine doesn’t have much of an arm, but he’s the better catcher.”
   26. ??'s Biggest Fan! Posted: September 11, 2017 at 09:25 AM (#5529529)
This is the same BS we saw with Piazza.

Then we should all take on the opinion that Piazza was also very lazy. Right? Or is there a reason why Sanchez is probably lazy and Piazza worked hard but was a victim of circumstances beyond his control?
   27. Greg K Posted: September 11, 2017 at 09:38 AM (#5529532)
Then we should all take on the opinion that Piazza was also very lazy. Right? Or is there a reason why Sanchez is probably lazy and Piazza worked hard but was a victim of circumstances beyond his control?

I feel like I'm missing the general thrust here.

Can't they both be lazy?
EDIT: Or neither?
   28. Man o' Schwar Posted: September 11, 2017 at 09:43 AM (#5529534)
I feel like I'm missing the general thrust here.

Can't they both be lazy?
EDIT: Or neither?


C'mon. Where's your racism alarm? Obviously it's ringing for someone.
   29. Jose is an Absurd Doubles Machine Posted: September 11, 2017 at 09:49 AM (#5529537)
This brings back memories of Jeff Mathis playing ahead of Napoli in 2009.


The big difference with this is that Mathis and Napoli were effectively splitting time in 2009 (84 starts for Napoli, 78 for Mathis). By contrast Sanchez is the Yankee catcher. He has made 84 starts and Romine 53 but that's skewed by the 21 games Sanchez missed in April/May and the three game suspension. Since August 1 the starts have been; Sanchez 25, Romine 13 which would likely be 27/11 if not for the suspension.

The one thing I'll say is that if Holliday goes down again it wouldn't be a big shock if the alignment became Romine C/Sanchez DH. That's what they did for 3 of the 6 August games against Boston. I think it's worth noting though that with the full roster available against Cleveland and Boston a week ago Sanchez started 6 of 7 games behind the plate with only the second doubleheader game as DH. If Girardi is concerned about Sanchez behind the plate being impactful he isn't managing like it.
   30. ??'s Biggest Fan! Posted: September 11, 2017 at 09:57 AM (#5529542)
C'mon. Where's your racism alarm? Obviously it's ringing for someone.

Hey. If the shoe fits. Same position, same town, same level of production on the field. I don't recall Mike Piazza being accused of lazy. And it is most likely because Piazza wasn't lazy. That he worked really hard to but just not good at that one aspect of game. But we can pretty much assume part of Sanchez' problem is his laziness. A 24 year old player just getting a full season of major league baseball under his belt.
   31. TDF, FCL Posted: September 11, 2017 at 10:06 AM (#5529544)
I think posters here are feeding the troll two delicious courses:

Appetizer: Anonymous person from opposing club makes derogatory statement about home town player. Cue posts of "He's crazy!1one!1one" and lengthy defenses of said player.
Entree: "And people still get upset that teams are firing scouts". Instead of looking at what actually is going on (trashing an opposing player, which happens every single day by thousands of players/coaches/fans/sportswriters/etc), use an anonymously sourced quote denigrate an entire profession.
   32. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 11, 2017 at 10:22 AM (#5529547)

I assume it was mainly because of injury, but didn't the Mets play Pratt over Piazza years ago?

Piazza had an allergic reaction to a cortisone shot during the 1999 NLDS and Pratt started one or two games in his place. Pratt ended up hitting the series-winning HR in the bottom of the 10th inning of Game 4.

Then we should all take on the opinion that Piazza was also very lazy. Right? Or is there a reason why Sanchez is probably lazy and Piazza worked hard but was a victim of circumstances beyond his control?

Really? Typically when you're a 62nd round draft pick and end up making the HOF, people regard you as a hard worker who exceeded expectations.
   33. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 11, 2017 at 10:22 AM (#5529548)
Hey. If the shoe fits. Same position, same town, same level of production on the field. I don't recall Mike Piazza being accused of lazy.


He worked very hard for a gay man.
   34. The Good Face Posted: September 11, 2017 at 10:26 AM (#5529550)
It's like they never watched Posada.


Seriously. Posada was terrible at blocking pitches in the dirt or off the plate, and for exactly the same reason; he'd jab or reach at them with his glove instead of moving his body. And we all remember how it ruined his career and he never went on to make anything of himself.

I mean sure, I guess it's possible that Sanchez is lazy, or not working as hard as he could in some aspects of his game, and it would be great if he fixed that, but when you've got a 24 year old catcher who can hit and throw the way Sanchez does, you deal with a few passed balls and don't think twice.
   35. The Good Face Posted: September 11, 2017 at 10:28 AM (#5529553)
He worked very hard for a gay man.


He certainly generated a lot of power for a guy playing near the bottom of the field. I wonder if there's a shorter way to describe a guy like that?
   36. Tim D Posted: September 11, 2017 at 10:36 AM (#5529557)
Sanchez is a dick, he proved that in the fight in Detroit. If it is just "footwork and mechanics" or "learning to block balls," one would have thought several years in the minor leagues would have fixed these issues, which are among the most basic of learned skills for a catcher. So maybe he is lazy, having not done much to address these issues despite ample opportunity. That said, he is an All-Star and any notion that the Yankees will be reticent about playing him in the post season is flat out insanity.
   37. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 11, 2017 at 10:46 AM (#5529564)
Sanchez is a dick, he proved that in the fight in Detroit.

Funny, I'd say the pitcher who hit him just because Detroit couldn't get him out was the dick.
   38. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: September 11, 2017 at 10:54 AM (#5529569)
Sanchez is a dick, he proved that in the fight in Detroit.

Funny, I'd say the pitcher who hit him just because Detroit couldn't get him out was the dick.


Are you implying that because the pitcher was a dick, Sanchez was justified in punching two other guys in the face, while they were held down?
   39. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: September 11, 2017 at 11:03 AM (#5529576)
Then we should all take on the opinion that Piazza was also very lazy. Right? Or is there a reason why Sanchez is probably lazy and Piazza worked hard but was a victim of circumstances beyond his control?

C'mon. Where's your racism alarm? Obviously it's ringing for someone.

Hey. If the shoe fits. Same position, same town, same level of production on the field. I don't recall Mike Piazza being accused of lazy. And it is most likely because Piazza wasn't lazy. That he worked really hard to but just not good at that one aspect of game. But we can pretty much assume part of Sanchez' problem is his laziness. A 24 year old player just getting a full season of major league baseball under his belt.

No one called him generally lazy. Attempting to catch balls in the dirt by moving only his glove instead of moving his body into position to block them is a lazy act and is being called such. Dropping to his knees and sticking the glove between his legs is not some complicated dance that he's struggling to master, it's one he just doesn't bother to do a lot of the time. Piazza having two left feet and being unable to quickly transition from a crouch to the throwing position -- yet managing the immensely technical drop-to-the-ground-and-let-the-ball-hit-you maneuver -- doesn't really fit that paradigm, so it's a stupid comparison.
   40. ??'s Biggest Fan! Posted: September 11, 2017 at 11:05 AM (#5529577)
Are you implying that because the pitcher was a dick, Sanchez was justified in punching two other guys in the face, while they were held down?

No one has suggested that. Just you. Sanchez is a dick for sucker punching someone. And Fullmer is a dick for hitting Sanchez with a baseball after giving up a HR to him. We can chew gum and walk at the same time.
   41. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: September 11, 2017 at 11:16 AM (#5529588)
No one has suggested that. Just you. Sanchez is a dick for sucker punching someone. And Fullmer is a dick for hitting Sanchez with a baseball after giving up a HR to him. We can chew gum and walk at the same time.


Actually, I'd sort of prefer to hear from snapper on this one, because the only reason to mention Fulmer is to imply that Sanchez is somehow less of a dick - his actions were 'justified'.

I am firmly in the camp they are both dicks.
   42. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 11, 2017 at 11:17 AM (#5529590)
“Sanchez has got a ways to go defensively, and I knew it all along,” a Major League scout for an opposing club told NJ Advance Media. “He gets very lazy. He wants to reach instead of shifting his feet. He tries to get away with stuff because of his strong arm.”


Somehow this has the ring of a scout whose negative report played a part in his team's not pursuing Sanchez as aggressively as the Yankees did, and is hoping his team won't remember that.
   43. Jose is an Absurd Doubles Machine Posted: September 11, 2017 at 11:30 AM (#5529603)

Somehow this has the ring of a scout whose negative report played a part in his team's not pursuing Sanchez as aggressively as the Yankees did, and is hoping his team won't remember that.


That's a good call. I find my BS detector goes off pretty strongly when people start telling me how brilliant they are.
   44. Omineca Greg Posted: September 11, 2017 at 11:41 AM (#5529610)
From an organisation as antiquarian and hidebound as MLB, where even stealing signs is disciplined with the joyless and relentless devotion of an eternal scold, the raising of the dead is bound to be rejected on a purely reactionary level. Manfred will consider almost anything; but defrauding the reaper of one of his hard won prizes lies beyond the scope of his imagination. And we can consider this a blessing in the regards that once Selig's spirit is dispatched into the void, his toadying adulator will have neither the ingenuity nor the mettle to summon Bud's soul back into the physical world, and we can take solace that Commissioner Selig's incorporeal being will be consigned to a plane of existence that is neither cold nor hot, nor light nor dark, a place beyond the reach of compassion and honour, so it can be said that in death he exists much the way he did in life. Sealed over eyelids that cannot see, a pinhole mouth that cannot speak, and shrugging shoulders making an everlasting expression of pathetic indifference.

But should we, ones with insight into necromancy, allow ourselves to be circumscribed by our self-righteous inferiors? Great men would not even need to ask the question; the issues surrounding raising the dead are not ones of morality, but pragmatism. The world we have constructed is rife with hazards already, a maelstrom of conflicting legalities so arcane that some have been driven mad trying to delve into their complexities, the finest minds of our generation descending into a morass of pedantry and sophistry, like the majestic mastodons of old, trapped in tar pits, the dark reek of sulphur hanging ever heavy in the air. For those capable of rational thought and penetrating insight, what I say next will not come as news; for those who wish to apprentice at the hand of a stygian acolyte, one who has stared into the indefatigable eyes of the Goddess and withstood her abrading gaze, lean closer as I whisper the secrets of the dead, for to speak them loudly only invites a calamity of the most inexorable monstrosities. If your psyche is weak or your élan vital struggles with the mundane opprobrium of everyday life, turn away. Turn away now! Right now!

Your very sanity could be at stake. Consider this your last warning, if you continue on, I can't be responsible, the operator of this site cannot be responsible, the everlasting lunacy that could result will be nobody's fault but your own.

Good.

For those still with us, let's look at the statement, "I don't know, though, man. Cheating the rules of life and death in order to strengthen your lineup feels wrong somehow. Best to keep it to the coaching staff."

There is nothing wrong about it. There is nothing right about it either. If you surrender your morality to traditional notions of right or wrong regarding the sweet embrace of the afterlife, and any attempts at extrication from those loving arms, your career in this most exclusive field of sorcery will be short. Let us consider the real issues, the genuine embroilments.

Dickey and Berra played during the age of the reserve clause. To bring them back into this more enlightened era brings with it a host of issues. The contracts of their time assumed that death would be final, so reanimating them may be problematic legally. Would they even be bound to play for the Yankees? (are the contracts signed in blood? Contra proferentum isn't a Hogwarts spell you know!). And as there's no reason to think that either man would axiomatically choose to stay with the Yankees (indeed, there is good reason to think that they would not!), as a budding necromancer you may find your paycheque in jeopardy. Do you think Hank's and Hal's hearts will be gladdened to see Dickey in the uniform of a rival? Or what if they are treated to an otherworldly Yogi, hell bent on exacting revenge for his shabby treatment at the hands of their father? Emboldened by his new minions from beyond the grave; the icy fingers of Yogi's wraith army clinging at Hank's tailored suit and Hal's designer shoes, pulling the unfortunate brothers into a vacuous kingdom of hollow despair, while a choir of spectres sing eerily familiar melodies from Damn Yankees, with lyrics amended to fit the siblings' most current exigency...

Whatever Gehenna wants, Gehenna gets
And little men, little Gehenna wants you
Make up your mind to have, no regrets
Recline yourself, resign yourself you're through
I always get, what I aim for
And your heart and soul, is what I came for.
Whatever Gehenna wants, Gehenna gets
Take off your coat, Don't you know you can't win
You're no exception to the rule,
I'm irrezeestable you fool, Give in.

Adler/Ross


So, before any dead can be raised, the legal status of those contracts must be known.

Secondly, to raise the dead is one thing, but to bring them back at a certain specified age is quite another. Dickey has been dead for a long time, the chance of him coming back as either a child or as a middle aged man or older would seem to be far greater than hitting the narrow window of his playing days. Do you think Hank and Hal are cleaving a breach in the phantomological veil between this side and the other just to get a bat boy? I suppose if Dickey is to be employed for his coaching, the margin for error is greater, but Yogi? Do you think any of today's players could stand the indignity of having a harmonica slapped from their hands? I think not. I think not. If you can't guarantee a delivery of a peak Yogi, the whole operation is simply a waste of time.

Even if they are capable of playing, is it fair to put them in today's game, when so much has changed? Pitchers throw harder now. They might not be able to adapt to catching 5 or 6 different pitchers every night. The games go on so long, they won't be accustomed to the wear and tear on their bodies. Can they flash the signs fast enough to avoid having them stolen by hi-tech equipment? Think of the damage to the game's heritage if these two HOFers are unable to uphold their quality of play, the historical implications would be enormous.

There's already enough inter-generational conflict between Boomers and Millennials, throwing in The Greatest Generation may be too much to bear. At least nobody's suggesting Ray Schalk, at this point that's a generation that should probably stay Lost; if you think Biz Mackey could handle being confused with that rapper and asked to sing "Just A Friend" everywhere he went, I think you're being very naive.

Consider the distraction of it all. Nobody wanted Barry Bonds around and all he did was cheat at baseball, someone who cheated death would only be that much more of a beguilement.

Maybe now you're beginning to see, that death, just as life, has its place. If you have, then you are making progress in the dark arts.

Probably though, nobody has gone insane from reading this yet (well, maybe that one guy, but he was pretty close to the edge already...you know who I'm talking about...). And that would be true. Comprehending the intricacies of which I speak cannot be shoehorned into the five minutes it takes to read a post on a baseball board when your boss is otherwise indisposed and not supervising you in the way your mere presence here right now proves that you require. If it were that easy, these matters would not have confounded humanity for millennia. The fact that you are not insane, only shows that you still don't understand; you cling to the illusions of life like a baby clings to his mother's teat, and all the while he steals glances down to his clipped umbilical cord, wondering if he will never know that feeling of infinite communion again.

One day he will feel it. Sooner or later, we all will.

Go to the butcher and buy a steak. Cold and pure, smelling fresh like rain (unless you get one of the ones with the 30% off sticker, those ones will smell "meh"). Put it on a plate and set it out on the kitchen counter. Then watch. Then smell. Then touch. Bacteria will alight on it as it warms, and soon it will be vibrant with life, where once there had only been the cool peace of death. The bacteria will grow and prosper, and pursue their happiness, but you'll notice the strangest thing; as the steak leaves the world of death, and re-enters the world of the living, the changes aren't for the best. It will begin to smell of rot, if you leave it long enough, it will be covered with flies, and then crawling with maggots.

And then new flies. And the meat, if indeed it's fair to even call it that anymore, will re-enter the endless cycle.

Your wife will say, if she's anything like my wife, she'll say, "What the #### are you doing you dumbfuck, you ####### stupid #######, it smells like ####### death in here!"

But it won't smell like death.

It will smell like life.

Once you grasp that principle, you will begin to see necromancy for what it is. Not right, not wrong. But your practice won't be changing the world the way you thought you were changing it. To live, to die, only one who can reverse their natural order can see those things as they truly are. But you won't like what you find. Nobody ever does.
   45. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 11, 2017 at 12:11 PM (#5529649)
Actually, I'd sort of prefer to hear from snapper on this one, because the only reason to mention Fulmer is to imply that Sanchez is somehow less of a dick - his actions were 'justified'.

I would say he is "less of a dick". Still a dick, but once punches start being thrown, I'm more forgiving of actions in the heat of the moment. Fulmer cooly decide to hit the guy because he couldn't get him out. That's worse, IMHO.
   46. Rally Posted: September 11, 2017 at 12:31 PM (#5529670)
I didn't think it was a contest before clicking here, but the win for this thread goes to Omineca Greg.
   47. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 11, 2017 at 03:31 PM (#5529832)
Next time I need an easily-at-hand example of whataboutism, nice to know I'll have Snapper's performance here to lean on.
   48. Bug Selig Posted: September 11, 2017 at 04:28 PM (#5529860)
Fulmer cooly decide to hit the guy because he couldn't get him out. That's worse, IMHO.
What's really cool was how he immediately shook his hand and gave it the "what did you do?" look and then went on the DL for the rest of the year after one more start with - you guessed it - nerve damage in that elbow. The vast conspiracy against your beloved team gets vaster all the time.
   49. Hysterical & Useless Posted: September 11, 2017 at 04:59 PM (#5529870)
the win for this thread goes to Omineca Greg


As is usually the case whenever he shows up.
   50. Hysterical & Useless Posted: September 11, 2017 at 05:00 PM (#5529871)
And we all remember how it ruined his career and he never went on to make anything of himself.


Though this was pretty darn good from TGF.
   51. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 11, 2017 at 06:31 PM (#5529895)
you cling to the illusions of life like a baby clings to his mother's teat, and all the while he steals glances down to his clipped umbilical cord, wondering if he will never know that feeling of infinite communion again.

Until he discover la petite mort.
   52. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 11, 2017 at 06:59 PM (#5529903)
Next time I need an easily-at-hand example of whataboutism, nice to know I'll have Snapper's performance here to lean on.

What's really cool was how he immediately shook his hand and gave it the "what did you do?" look and then went on the DL for the rest of the year after one more start with - you guessed it - nerve damage in that elbow. The vast conspiracy against your beloved team gets vaster all the time.

You guys are way too emotionally invested in this. Even if Fulmer didn't mean to hit him, Sanchez certainly thought he did, and Sanchez didn't charge the mound. It's beyond me why he's the big villain here.
   53. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 11, 2017 at 07:02 PM (#5529904)
I am zero emotionally invested, thanks. Which is why I can see with clear-headed rationalism that viciously sucker punching a guy at the bottom of a pile and then running away - twice - is, on a baseball-fight scale, indisputably a bigger dick move than throwing at a hitter.
   54. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 11, 2017 at 07:05 PM (#5529905)
clear-headed rationalism that viciously sucker punching

How long were they hospitalized?
   55. dejarouehg Posted: September 11, 2017 at 07:30 PM (#5529915)
Then we should all take on the opinion that Piazza was also very lazy. Right? Or is there a reason why Sanchez is probably lazy and Piazza worked hard but was a victim of circumstances beyond his control?


Are you serious? Does this PC BS ever stop?
   56. Bug Selig Posted: September 11, 2017 at 07:39 PM (#5529917)
Even if Fulmer didn't mean to hit him, Sanchez certainly thought he did, and Sanchez didn't charge the mound.
Right. He doesn't fight guys who are standing and/or facing him. This is not a point in his favor.
   57. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 11, 2017 at 07:44 PM (#5529922)
He should have kept his mask on and waded into the fray. I understand all the Yankee-hating losers think that's cool.
   58. ??'s Biggest Fan! Posted: September 11, 2017 at 10:39 PM (#5529979)
Does this PC BS ever stop?

Nope.
   59. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: September 11, 2017 at 11:35 PM (#5529988)
Does this PC BS ever stop?

Said in the same thread where nonsensical gay bashing goes unchallenged.
   60. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: September 11, 2017 at 11:45 PM (#5529990)
You have a much looser definition of "bashing" than I.
   61. Mans Best Friend Posted: September 12, 2017 at 12:38 AM (#5529998)
Wait! Were the guys Sanchez viciously punch gay? Or is Sanchez like Piazza in more ways than one?

Im confused.
   62. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 12, 2017 at 08:37 AM (#5530036)
Then we should all take on the opinion that Piazza was also very lazy. Right? Or is there a reason why Sanchez is probably lazy and Piazza worked hard but was a victim of circumstances beyond his control?

Since Italians are known to be about the laziest people on earth, I'm not sure what you're even talking about. How many bases did Roy Campanella steal?
   63. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: September 12, 2017 at 09:29 AM (#5530056)
You have a much looser definition of "bashing" than I.

What exactly was the point of [33]? "He worked very hard for a gay man." Is that supposed to be a compliment?
   64. ??'s Biggest Fan! Posted: September 12, 2017 at 09:46 AM (#5530061)
Since Italians are known to be about the laziest people on earth

Then maybe all catchers should be of Asian descent. The whole "model immigrant" thing would probably make the article above unnecessary. Where is Kyle Higashioka by the way...? The Yankees lack of depth at catching is worrisome.
   65. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 12, 2017 at 09:48 AM (#5530062)
What exactly was the point of [33]? "He worked very hard for a gay man." Is that supposed to be a compliment?


Explaining humor is a one-way path to the comedy cemetery, but it was a low-effort joke so I'll play along with your feigned outrage.

See, following #26's insinuating sneer "is there a reason why Sanchez is probably lazy and Piazza worked hard but was a victim of circumstances beyond his control", #28 made a comment about how some sensitive types react to any insinuation that a Latin ballplayer isn't playing with the appropriate amount of intensity as a racist stereotype made by racists for racists reasons: "Where's your racism alarm? Obviously it's ringing for someone." #30 replied, "Same position, same town, same level of production on the field. I don't recall Mike Piazza being accused of lazy" to emphasize his unfounded accusation that it was only Sanchez's Latin0-ness that made him the subject of such an accusation.

Naturally as someone who has actually followed baseball for many years I found this amusing in its wrong-headedness and felt the need to note that Piazza if wasn't accused of being lazy, he was at least frequently accused of being gay to the point of holding a press conference to address the rumors. Perhaps I should have made things a little more obvious for you by instead saying that rather than a sign of being lazy, Piazza's defensive woes were attributed to his limp-wristed slapping at the ball rather than properly positioning himself. I dunno, putting too much thought into these things usually doesn't help and the fainting couches fill up regardless.
   66. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 12, 2017 at 09:49 AM (#5530063)
Where is Kyle Higashioka by the way...?


Injured most of the season. Where were Mr. Mayigi's magic hands when we needed them?
   67. ??'s Biggest Fan! Posted: September 12, 2017 at 09:51 AM (#5530064)
to emphasize his unfounded accusation

Have you not been paying attention to this site in general and this thread in particular? Par for the course. Stop being so PC.
   68. rconn23 Posted: September 12, 2017 at 10:49 AM (#5530092)
I am zero emotionally invested, thanks. Which is why I can see with clear-headed rationalism that viciously sucker punching a guy at the bottom of a pile and then running away - twice - is, on a baseball-fight scale, indisputably a bigger dick move than throwing at a hitter.

"Viciously" Yes, the horror. The blood flowed for days. Stop. Just stop.

He threw a cheap shot, shouldn't have, and was suspended for it. However, the logic that punching a guy is any worse than throwing a baseball 90+mph at another human - simply because they took you deep - is absurd.
   69. Rally Posted: September 12, 2017 at 10:57 AM (#5530103)
#65, Piazza addressed the rumors (I think he even mentioned BTF at one point) and said that the part of it that offended him is the implication that he would try to hide it by dating beautiful models. Here's a direct quote: "If I was gay, I'd be gay all the way".
   70. Greg K Posted: September 12, 2017 at 11:08 AM (#5530111)
#65, Piazza addressed the rumors (I think he even mentioned BTF at one point) and said that the part of it that offended him is the implication that he would try to hide it by dating beautiful models. Here's a direct quote: "If I was gay, I'd be gay all the way".

I think you might have things a little mixed up. I think you're thinking of Lyndon Johnson's campaign slogan.
   71. Jim Furtado Posted: September 12, 2017 at 11:08 AM (#5530112)
No one called him generally lazy. Attempting to catch balls in the dirt by moving only his glove instead of moving his body into position to block them is a lazy act and is being called such. Dropping to his knees and sticking the glove between his legs is not some complicated dance that he's struggling to master, it's one he just doesn't bother to do a lot of the time. Piazza having two left feet and being unable to quickly transition from a crouch to the throwing position -- yet managing the immensely technical drop-to-the-ground-and-let-the-ball-hit-you maneuver -- doesn't really fit that paradigm, so it's a stupid comparison.

I agree.

I have no doubt he's been schooled to block balls by shifting his body instead of stabbing at them with his glove. That he still chooses to do so, despite the balls getting past him, is a lazy way of playing his position. Although high school was the highest level I played, I had the opportunity to pitch to a lot of different catchers. Having a pitcher stab at my curves in the dirt instead of shifting to block them hurt my effectiveness. It meant I risked a passed ball every time a man was on base and I tried to get a batter to chase a curve in the dirt. Now this might not mean much to some of you but it's a pretty important part of catching.

Sanchez is 24 years old. That he hasn't grasped the fundamentals of blocking pitches already is worrisome because as he ages his skills will diminish. Since he's hitting great and will probably get better, there is limited time to pressure him to change his habits. Now, he'll still be a pretty catcher overall if he doesn't get better with the glove but he'd be even more valuable by completing his skill set.

Now, if you want to dismiss these criticisms as racism, I won't argue your politics because no matter what I say won't change your mind. I will, however, question your knowledge of playing the game because you clearly are missing lot of what goes into being a good catcher.
   72. Man o' Schwar Posted: September 12, 2017 at 11:16 AM (#5530119)
I think you might have things a little mixed up. I think you're thinking of Lyndon Johnson's campaign slogan.

"LBJ goes all the way... if you have a penis."

Seriously, I wouldn't joke about LBJ. I think his ghost could show up and peckerslap me from beyond the grave.
   73. Tim D Posted: September 12, 2017 at 11:21 AM (#5530120)
There have been plenty of defensively challenged catchers. Most of them white I'm sure. Ted Simmons and Joe Torre come to mind. Simmons always looked like he would rather do anything but catch. No one ever accused him of working too hard on blocking balls. Torre was terrible, but other than being big and slow he had very few physical attributes of a catcher. Torre would if he could, Simmons was more could but wouldn't. Sanchez looks a little more like Simmons, but time will tell.
   74. ??'s Biggest Fan! Posted: September 12, 2017 at 11:35 AM (#5530127)
That he still chooses to do so, despite the balls getting past him, is a lazy way of playing his position.

All due respect, I think the emphasis on balls in the dirt as Sanchez' main issue is way off. If you watch him behind the plate, he has problems simply catching and tracking the ball. Last night's game had him blocking balls in the dirt but allowed pitches bounce off his glove or pitches that were simply missed. But yes, you can certainly change my mind if you had concrete evidence to prove to me that Sanchez simply has no interest in improving his defense. But at present, your opinion that Sanchez has a lazy approach to his position because he "chooses" to suck at catching pitches has no more validity than my claims of racism. What we can all agree with is that at 24, Sanchez will either improve, or he won't play the position any more.
   75. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 12, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5530131)
All due respect, I think the emphasis on balls in the dirt as Sanchez' main issue is way off.

In fairness, if he's crouching down that low, yeah, he's probably going to have some significant mobility issues.
   76. The Good Face Posted: September 12, 2017 at 11:48 AM (#5530135)
Once again, Jorge Posada was still regularly catching in MLB through his age 38 season, despite being lousy at blocking balls in the dirt or off the plate. All while being one of the worst baserunners in MLB history. And he wound up with almost 43 career bWAR. Being a really good hitter makes up for almost all sins if you're a catcher.
   77. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 12, 2017 at 11:56 AM (#5530140)
What we can all agree with is that at 24, Sanchez will either improve, or he won't play the position any more.

This is just silly. Even 20 passed balls per season is not a big deal when you've got a 132 wRC+.

The pitch framing stats show him as average. His arm is very good. DRS has him above average.

As GF says, even if he was a terrible catcher, his offense will let him stick. Of course, there's no actual evidence that he is a bad C overall.
   78. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: September 12, 2017 at 12:22 PM (#5530150)
He threw a cheap shot, shouldn't have, and was suspended for it. However, the logic that punching a guy is any worse than throwing a baseball 90+mph at another human - simply because they took you deep - is absurd.


Except that the cheap shots from Sanchez were clearly that - cheap shots. Fulmer's excuse that the ball got away from him looks a lot more plausible when you consider he is now on the DL and scheduled to undergo surgery for nerve damage in his elbow.
   79. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 12, 2017 at 12:23 PM (#5530153)
As GF says, even if he was a terrible catcher, his offense will let him stick.

Which is what I was saying from the beginning: If this scout is still so stuck in the "Gotta do the little things! Fundamentalz! Small Ball!" mentality that he thinks the Yankees would play Romine over Sanchez due to this one issue, that's a basic misunderstanding of baseball in 2017.
   80. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: September 12, 2017 at 12:28 PM (#5530155)
Seriously, I wouldn't joke about LBJ. I think his ghost could show up and peckerslap me from beyond the grave.


Aww, don't worry, Jumbo never hurt anybody, he just liked to come out and enjoy some air every now and then.
   81. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: September 12, 2017 at 12:34 PM (#5530160)
Explaining humor is a one-way path to the comedy cemetery, but it was a low-effort joke so I'll play along with your feigned outrage.

I'm well aware of the Piazza rumors. The joke was not clear to me at all, which is why I originally called it nonsensical. Agree it is best to leave this in the comedy cemetery.
   82. jmurph Posted: September 12, 2017 at 12:37 PM (#5530163)
All due respect, I think the emphasis on balls in the dirt as Sanchez' main issue is way off. If you watch him behind the plate, he has problems simply catching and tracking the ball. Last night's game had him blocking balls in the dirt but allowed pitches bounce off his glove or pitches that were simply missed.

This is my take, too: he has trouble literally catching the ball. I've seen him drop just normal pitches, not ones in the dirt. I'm not even talking about passed balls, the ones I remember there were no consequences. It just struck me as odd, I don't remember seeing that very often.

But my overall stance is he's probably fine because the man can hit, and by the numbers, can throw.
   83. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 12, 2017 at 12:38 PM (#5530164)
I'm well aware of the Piazza rumors. The joke was not clear to me at all, which is why I originally called it nonsensical. Agree it is best to leave this in the comedy cemetery.


Well at this point there's no choice. You've demanded a dissection and sodomized the corpse.
   84. Walt Davis Posted: September 12, 2017 at 05:44 PM (#5530409)
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
   85. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 12, 2017 at 06:33 PM (#5530422)
“I’ll tell you what,” the scout said. “I’ll go on the record right now and say it: For the playoffs, you watch, Austin Romine will catch more than Sanchez. Romine doesn’t have much of an arm, but he’s the better catcher.”


I don't think this will happen but if any manager were capable of it, Girardi, the former no-hit catcher with an outsized opinion of his own defense, would be the one to do it, particularly given his treatment of an aging Posada.
   86. Blastin Posted: September 12, 2017 at 06:46 PM (#5530424)
Ray. Scioscia would do it
   87. GordonShumway Posted: September 12, 2017 at 06:50 PM (#5530425)
This is my take, too: he has trouble literally catching the ball. I've seen him drop just normal pitches, not ones in the dirt. I'm not even talking about passed balls, the ones I remember there were no consequences. It just struck me as odd, I don't remember seeing that very often.


Posada had that problem too.
   88. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: September 12, 2017 at 07:40 PM (#5530430)
I remember reading a lengthy article about how Jorge's defense was so bad that, despite his bat, the Yankees were been better off playing Jose Molina. It was based on pitch-framing before pitch-framing became such a popular thing to look at. And it wasn't internet nerds arguing it. It was people within the Yankees organization who believed it.

I wish I could remember where I saw it. Most likely got it from a link here.
   89. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 12, 2017 at 08:25 PM (#5530444)
And it wasn't internet nerds arguing it. It was people within the Yankees organization who believed it.

Does that make it more or less plausible? Because it's the exact sort of thing that "baseball insiders" tended to believe without any data to back it up, because good defense was somehow morally superior to good offense.
   90. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: September 12, 2017 at 08:58 PM (#5530456)
I remember the main proponent of benching Posada being a stat geek (one employed by the Yankees) whose opinion was entirely based on the team's data. I shouldn't have included the statement you quoted, as it clearly gives the wrong impression.

I wish someone else could recall the article I'm talking about. Google didn't help me.
   91. PreservedFish Posted: September 12, 2017 at 10:32 PM (#5530533)
Jose Molina was the star of the Baseball Prospectus articles that first promulgated the extreme value in framing, from a stathead perspective, with a run value assigned to the skill.

Here's one of them, from erstwhile Primate Mike Fast.

The article also analyzes Posada as a particularly bad framer. I bet that this is what you're half remembering, and you've invented the part about the Yankees insider.
   92. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: September 12, 2017 at 10:43 PM (#5530540)
Entirely possible.
   93. Walt Davis Posted: September 13, 2017 at 01:42 AM (#5530632)
because good defense was somehow morally superior to good offense.

No ... good defense at C and SS is morally superior to good offense.

Not that it's definitive or anything but Molina was in NY from 2007-9. Posada got hurt in 2008 (28 starts at C plus 18 at DH/1B) and Molina got 81 starts, sharing the job with Chad Moeller then Pudge II. Impressively, Pudge managed to hit as badly for the Yanks as Molina. Anyway, in 2007 with mostly Posada (Molina grabbed mid-season, got 16 starts in 61 games) they won 94 games and the WC; in 2009 with mostly Posada (Molina back-up with 42 starts) they won 103 games and the WS. In 2008 with more Molina than anybody else, they won 89 games and missed the playoffs. Obviously lots of stuff went on across those seasons but it's not a good start to the "Yanks were better with Molina" argument.

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