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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Friday, October 31, 2008
Professor Hoban - Hall of Fame Numbers?
Does Pedro Martinez have Hall of Fame numbers? Many fans would argue this question in different ways. That is, they would use different numbers and different metrics to make their case, either pro or con.
But this is one of those times when it is sometimes helpful to have a single metric that helps you decide whether someone has Hall of Fame numbers. Something like having the exact tool needed to do a job.
...Meaning that Pedro’s career through his first thirteen seasons puts him at the top of this short list of great pitchers.
This means that Pedro Martinez already had Hall of Fame numbers after just thirteen seasons. Or, as we used to say in 10th year geometry – QED.
So, Pedro for the Hall of Fame really does represent a “good CAWS.”
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1. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: October 31, 2008 at 01:11 PM (#3000305)this is also one of those times when it is helpful to wait until the guy's actually done playing baseball.
Is it even legal to ask the question?
Are you implying that Pedro might play himself out of the Hall, or am I just reading too much into your statement?
Wow. He took geometry for 10 years?
Good call on the Blanche de Chambly Mr. Jones, it certainly did not disappoint
I'm glad you enjoyed it. I actually went by the LCBO to pick up some that same evening. Regrettably, they were out of stock, so I had to settle for Leffe Blonde and Leffe Brun.
I think I'll be able to survive.
My son is spending the semester in the Netherlands and couch-surfing around the continent on weekends and he has been singing the praises of Leffe. I may have to inquire at our local beer distributor.
no. My sentiment was not specific to Pedro. But for every good player over the age of 26, there is an article written (or some argument here) about "Will he make the hall of fame?" ... and they can repeat the article after every season for the same player. Why not wait until the guys career is over before arguing his HOF merits?
At this exact moment, I really hate your son.
Leffe Blonde is very good. I've been singing the praises of Unibroue's Fin du Monde lately. Top notch.
We already had this: Cy Young Awards, three of them and you are guaranteed a plaque. Seriously.
Not to pile on, but of course Pedro Martinez is a great example of why a single metric is not very helpful. His career isn't highly similar to anyone else's, but it's one of those know-'em-when-I-see-'em careers: if he's not in the Hall. the Hall doesn't mean anything. Some players define the Hall's parameters, instead of the Hall measuring them. Nolan Ryan (whatever his weaknesses) is like that in the "career" direction, and Pedro in the "peak" direction.
I like Fin du Monde, but I only ever see it in the extra-large bottles, and I rarely feel like having the equivalent of four beers a single sitting (double size at 9%), especially during the week.
Interesting. I've always seen it in a 4-pack, in 12 oz (or slightly smaller) bottles.
I think the closest comparison I would make is Sandy Koufax. Not the most wins or innings pitched you'll see, but a peak of dominance like none other.
And clearly Pedro was even more dominant than Koufax was, and in the mother of all hitting eras no less. What more needs to be said?
No. Next question.
that being said, I'm a small hall kind of guy, and Pedro was one of the truly dominant pitchers of his era along with (in my opinion) Clemens and Maddux. He's not on the same level as those two, a slight notch below, but he'd get my vote.
Wouldn't be first ballot though :)
Try the blonde. Or if you can find it, the radieuse; it is more difficult to find than the blonde or the brune.
He could always take some steroids to revive his career, pass the 300 win mark, hook up with an underage country singer, have the steroid evidence get some attention, try and deflect blame to his trainer or wife. That might keep a few voters from putting him in.
C'mon...nobody's that stupid.
Uh, this might be one of the rare times when I have some expertise around here. I've lived in Brussels for about a year, and Leffe is somewhere around the 15-20 range in terms quality of beers available in your average Belgian bar. If you're going to bug your distributor, go for Bruges Zot, Westmalle, Rochfort, St. Bernadus, Grimbergen, Orval, Duvel...
I know the Netherlands ain't Belgium when it comes to beer, but there is better stuff than Leffe out there.
Yeah definitely. I thought of suggesting the magnificent Duvel too. And I'd definitely add Chimay and Mared Sous to that list.
That said, I imagine he does remain a SP. There's 30 teams out there, and they each need five SP plus a couple in reserve. Pedro's an all-time great, was never awful in his entire life until this year, and at least with the Mets, has seemed to be a really good guy to have in the clubhouse. And he hasn't shown any desire to retire, AFAIK. So, I gotta think someone signs him.
And yes, he's going into the HOF. Although I have seen a disturbing amount of "is 214 wins good enough???" articles. But I don't think that argument will win the day. The writers aren't that dopey (quite).
Yesterday, me and my pals went to an Austrian restaurant and got a whole big boot (literally) full of Weihenstephaner Hefeweisse. Oh man. SO GOOD.
I expect him to comeback somewhere. I have San Diego and Oakland on the brain specifically. Good pitcher's parks, GMs willing to be creative and maybe he can provide a little Yoda-like wisdom for some developing pitchers. If you're looking for a stopgap hurler and not actually planning on being competitive, Pedro's your guy.
Just visited the Duvel brewery last week, and I'm probably overstating it, but the beer poured by the brewmaster at their bar was on of the best beers I've ever had. It probably didn't hurt that it was 10 am, but it was great. They also brew Mared Sous, which is excellent. Chimay is of course a winner, but that should be available in most decent liquor stores. Maybe add Abbe des Rocs and Carulus, or Corsendonk, or...I'll be right back, I'm off to the store!
You better not be badmouthing whiskey. I'll have a nice single malt, or a good bourbon, over a beer any day.
I'm just saying that if you want to fall into a coma, Fin du Monde is a good way to do it though it isn't what I would choose.
you're doing it wrong.
concur.
Not sure about you Gaelen, but my drinking habits have improved considerably since high school, meaning it takes me a good half hour to drink La Fin du Monde, usually on a full stomach, rather than the twenty seconds it used to take, drank on a base of 5 Wheat Thins. Maybe give it another try.
Also, if Pedro became an Athletic I'd drop out of college and move back to the Bay Area, temping for money for box seats for Pedro games. And phred we did go to an A's game in August. Good times were had by all, including my girlfriend, who went to her first baseball game.
A better question about Pedro: Is he the best starting pitcher ever? There is no starting pitcher with more 200+ ERA+ seasons. Not even close. Very few have 2 or more. Pedro had 5 in a 7-year span.
Granted, it's easier to put up a big ERA+ number is a high offense era, but on a per inning basis, who has a seven year run that can compete with Pedro?
Agreed. That's why so many of us are using this opportunity to discuss the various forms of alcohol.
My advice on wine is - don't be afraid to go cheap. Try a few different $8~12 bottles until you can identify what exactly you are looking for. I find I go through periods of dry, crisp pinot grigios, Due Uve (technically a blend) is fantastic for the price, then will randomly drink a red and go down that road for a while. Makes it easier to take a chance on a bottle of wine if you are only pouring out $9 instead of $30.
The ERA+ is not quite as impressive (although still great), but from 1929 to 1935, Lefty Grove led the AL in ERA five times in seven years (and again in 1936).
Had some Delirium Tremens at a beer-tasting and really enjoyed it and thought it was one of the more distinctive beers I'd ever had; then I bought a bottle later and wasn't that impressed. So it's either great or so-so, but give it a go sometime.
I never saw Koufax but I did have the pleasure of seeing Seaver, Carlton, Jenkins, Maddux, Clemens, etc. in their primes.
Pedro in his prime was, by far, the greatest pitcher I have ever seen. None of those other guys had such a perfect mix of velocity, movement, control and pitching savvy. He was a combination of Maddux and Clemens with better breaking pitches.
The only thing in my baseball lifetime that compares to Pedro in his prime is Bonds.
I bought an Ontario dry rosé for about $9 and was pleasantly surprised. I've still got the bottle somewhere, so I could give out the label if anyone was interested.
But mostly I find you'd be unlucky to get a $12 bottle, handle it properly (ie, chilling the white/rosé just right or letting the red breathe), and be disappointed. I used to make a hobby of looking for good budget wines. A few years ago an English supermarket was stocking a Vin du Pays Gascogne for £2.99 and it was extraordinarily good value. Later years weren't quite up to the original standard, but still serviceable. Of course, I've also had a few disappointments over the years.
In England you could go to a Majestic, sample about six bottles of expensive wine, buy your twelve minimum of the cheaper ones, and get breathalyzed as you weaved around the streets on the way home! Here in Ontario, you can only buy wine at the LCBO, and they only seem to offer tastings of beer (meh) and funny cocktail drinks (ugh).
Duvel, yes, but I hadn't seen Westmalle in the states. Delerium is very good, and for bragging's sake, I'll say I opened up one of these after the Phillies won the World Series.
This whole article is ridiculous.
Agreed. That's why so many of us are using this opportunity to discuss the various forms of alcohol.
Hey, all and all it's been a pretty productive thread. We've established:
a) Pedro is a Hall of Fame pitcher.
b) Belgian beer is good.
My wife and I just went to Vegas and ate at the Lupo Trattoria in Mandalay Bay by Wolfgang Puck. Restaurant was "eh", but ordered my most expensive bottle of wine to date ($65) and I believe it was 2003 Zilliken Riesling Auslese from the Mosel-Saar-Ruhr region. That was the best damn thing I've ever had. I don't know that it was $65 worth, but I've tried to find it elsewhere and it's not cheap. I figured the markup to be about 100%, so figured I could get my hands on some for about $30. Not so.
So far I've bought two bottles of German Riesling Auslese and one bottle of French Riesling Alsace (sp?) for like $10-$15. I've only opened one so far, and it just wasn't the same.
I don't think Pedro would make a good reliever. I would say in general how you pitch in the first inning isn't necessarily indicative of how good a reliever someone would be, but in the case of Pedro I think it tells a good part of the story.
Pedro often took that first inning to get loose; he would usually start out throwing 83 or 84 MPH in the first and crank it up to 89 or 90 by the second. It takes Pedro basically the entire time between starts to gear up and be ready to throw on his scheduled day; and even then he has trouble getting loose in the first inning. Making him a reliever, he wouldn't know when he was going to pitch and he wouldn't be able to focus all of his energy into preparing for a start every fifth day.
a) Pedro is a Hall of Fame pitcher.
b) Belgian beer is good.
Seeing that Pedro is my favorite athlete in any sport, let alone baseball player, of all time, and belgian(-style) beer is my favorite adult beverage, I'm pretty pleased with it.
I'm a big fan the Unibroue beers - their temproary offerings can be hit or miss, but their regular lineup (blanche de chambly, maudite, fin du monde, and trois pistoles) are all excellent. As for Belgians, the best ones I've had have already been mentioned by others here.
Walt, I would give the Delerium Tremens another try - it's one of my very favorites; in fact, I'll often order it as a safe choice, knowing it'll be at least very good.
Does anyone else here like Flemish sour red ales? I got hooked on them living in Philadelphia, where a local beer bar makes it as a regular offering (Monk's!) - I think the best I've had are Rodenbach grand cru and Duchess de Bourgogne though.
He was a combination of Maddux and Clemens with better breaking pitches.
I realize that one day I'm going to be the old guy talking about Pedro like people who grew up with Koufax talk about him, but I really can't overstate how incredible it was to watch Pedro in those years. I know other pitchers have had equally dominating seasons as him, but the thing that was most impressive about him was how dynamic he was. Any pitch, any arm angle, any count. And that changeup...
I guess part of me hopes he retires. Watching him struggle so badly in a Mets uniform last year - not the way I want to remember him.
This is a case, however, where he has already earned the Hall and doesn't need to throw another pitch to be a first-ballot inductee.
The only think that can keep Pedro out of the Hall (other than idiotic voting) is a Pete Rose type scandal.
True, Maddux, Clemens and Luis Tiant (El Duque for you kids out there) all rolled into one.
oh i love sour red ales. one of my favorite styles for sure. hell, any color sour ales (lambics, too ... but they are a different beast altogether), but the flemish reds are sort of the original, right? in addition to the ones that are actually made in belgium, russian river, the lost abbey, and dogfish head all make some nice sour beers. upstream brewing company from omaha had an excellent grand cru at the gabf this year ... one of the highlights for me. here in the boston area, cambridge brewing company makes some really nice sour beers.
Go south young man. There are some excellent Argentine Malbecs and Chilean Carmeneres in the $8-$12 range. Try Norton Malbec and Concha Y Toro Casillero del Diablo Carmenere.
Ahh, thanks. I have tried a Concha Y Toro Merlot and liked it.
A friend recommended Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon.
Make sure you get the Casillero del Diablo. Other Concha Y Toros don't measure up.
I don't know where you live, but I can get both of the wines I mentioned at BJ's (south Florida) for about $8 a bottle.
Rosemount Shiraz is another excellent value red.
My wife flies to South America frequently and she's always bringing home some interesting reds. If you want to be daring, try to find a Tannat from Uraguay. Very unusual.
I don't think there is ever such a time. In fact, this kind of analysis gives all "statheads" a bad name.
We should get a beer together sometime. Too bad there's no baseball to watch for awhile.
You could watch Hockey instead - I hear that the Bruins don't completely suck this year.
Pretty good dust up on Saturday against Dallas as well. I've got tickets to see them take on the Blackhawks in Chicago, and I'm looking forward to seeing two of the original 6 who've sucked for a while, making a resurgence.
Has anyone mentioned Ommegang's Belgian styles? I'm a big fan of the self-titled and the Rare Vos.
Unusual, how?
Any comments on Rioja and Bardolino? Recommended to me by a close friend.
Totally - also a big fan of Three Philosophers.
You could watch Hockey instead - I hear that the Bruins don't completely suck this year.
6-3-3 so far. I'm already looking forward to the #7 seed and an abrupt 1st round exit at the hands of Les Habitants.
We do have the Celtics, at least.
Very tannic, but not unpleasantly so. Kind of like a young cabernet, but as complex as an aged one. Also strong berry and smoky notes. Much different from any other Red I've tried, except for one off novelty wines.
Hilarious. I was thinking much the same.
Be happy with that. This was supposed to be the Leafs "tanking" year, and yet no one seems to have told the players. As a result, they're heading for a third straight year of "one point out of the playoffs". It's the best of both worlds - no playoff money AND a bad draft pick.
We should get a beer together sometime. Too bad there's no baseball to watch for awhile.
sure. shoot me an email ... i think my primer mail link still works.
He's seems to have a couple of lady friends from among his classmates that turn up most often in his pictures. He certainly has some pictures of Dutch ladies parading in their windows in Amsterdam. :)
But other than that he hasn't mentioned Dutch ladies.
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