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You have no idea what sort of can o' worms you just opened up by namechecking Peter Gabriel. Suffice it to say that Genesis is my single favorite group of all time, and Gabriel's solo career is magnificent. The first four self-titled albums in particular are rife with innovations, art-rock wonkishness, devastatingly smart and novel lyrical conceits, and great ####### music. 1 and 3 (which closes with "Biko," my favorite protest song of all time) are particularly mesmerizing.
The version of this on Plays Live has always been powerful for me.
iconic = ####### brew.
there's a ton of good, excellent, amazing music. then there's the stuff that's gonna still be listened to for one reason or another when we're all dead and buried.
A great live album (although I suppose "live" in scare quotes is more accurate...it was heavily overdubbed after the fact), and a great performance of the song. I also enjoy the live versions of "On The Air" and "Family Snapshot." Funny thing is, the album that tour was supporting (Peter Gabriel 4/Security) is the weakest of the four self-titled ones by a wide margin.
iconic = The opening G7sus9 chord of "A Hard Day's Night."
iconic = Duane Allman soloing on "Layla."
iconic = Peter Gabriel announcing "THE LORD OF LORDS, THE KING OF KINGS, HAS RETURNED TO LEAD HIS CHILDREN HOME, TO LEAD TAKE TO THE NEW JERUSALEM!"
iconic = Roger Daltrey's scream at the end of "Won't Get Fooled Again"
iconic = The goofy boys chorus at the beginning of "You Can't Always Get What You Want"
iconic = David Bowie howling "I, I WILL BE KING. AND YOU, YOU WILL BE QUEEN."
iconic = The opening riff of "Whole Lotta Love" or that drumbeat in "When The Levee Breaks."
I usually just think it's to each his own in these music threads, but I find it kind of stunning that someone who loves Pavement so much would also worship Peter Gabriel. It seems like whatever you think Pavement is, Peter Gabriel would be just the opposite. It's as if you liked GG Allin and Rupert Holmes.
(For the record, after being born in 1982 I wound up going through musical phases that roughly aproximated the history of rock and roll. As a little kid I was crazy about early 60's rock. Then I worked my way to late 60's, the 70's, mostly skipped the 80's, finally started listening to Nirvana in high school, Beck in college, and Radiohead after dropping out--all long after everyone else.
The Beatles have been a constant, though. As a kid I loved their early and their overplayed songs, now the less often played songs from later albums.)
The Fall are better.
And that, I think, may be the difference between musicians and casual music-lovers. I play, compose, and sing (in my spare time...law school right now) and in studying the history of rock/pop/avant-garde music over the last 40 years I've developed a deep appreciation for excellence in almost EVERY genre. It's a matter of learning to appreciate what is best in each genre's specific milieu, while still valuing those groups who respect the "eternal verities" (see my earlier post) the most. I love it, I glory in it, and I'm absolutely aware of the fact that I regularly blow people's minds by flashing uber-hipster music credentials on the one hand and then enthusiastically endorsing The Monkees or prog-rock on the other. But the walls that have been erected between these various genres are artificial, and largely the creation of style-fascists who want to close off or sequester their "scene" from the masses for sad personal reasons.
Objectively speaking, the things that make Genesis (ca. 1969-1983) one of the greatest bands of all time are the very same things that make Pavement one of the greatest bands of all time: both of them write really, really, REALLY ####### great melodies and structure them into songs which keep the intelligent listener's attention whilst inspiring a strong emotional response. Maybe different sorts of responses, but then variety is the spice of life after all. Yes, Genesis favors long songs, suite form, and instrumental virtuosity whilst Pavement goes for brevity and a casual lo-fi aesthetic, but underneath those superficial differences, there's a deep commonality.
People who feel compelled to hew to artificial genre boundaries because of cultural pressures ("eewww! Genesis? Phil Collins is SOOO lame!!" or "DUUUUUDE! The Grateful Dead? What are you, some stoner hippie?") are missing out on so so very much.
Currently playing on my Zen: Minutemen, What Makes A Man Start Fires?
P.S. G.G. Allin = novelty act. Rupert Holmes = I liked that Pina Colada song well enough, but...nah.
I'm not even a Pavement disciple, but oh GOD no.
P.S. G.G. Allin = novelty act.
While this is not an entirely unreasonable judgment, I'm not sure that most people who saw him live or lived in the era would really agree. But that's what makes it rock and roll, the subjectivity.
Sigh - I miss the Minutemen and I miss Fishbone.
Also iconic:
Little Richard singing "A-wop-bop-a-loo-lop a-lop bam boo"
Chords beginning "Jailhouse Rock"
Jerry Lee Lewis' growl/purr in "Whole Lotta Shakin' Goin On"
Aretha belting "R-E-S-P-E-C-T" or in "The Blues Brothers" - "You Better Think"
Ike Turner in full bass "rollllllinnnn' on the rivvvverrrrr"
Opening riffs of "London Calling"
Lou Reed singing "Heroin, its my wife and its my life"
James Brown launching into "I Feel Good"
Edwin Starr blasting out "WAR, HUH, Good God y'all"
Hmm...no, they're not. It's a tough call though, don't get me wrong. I have every single Fall album ever released (including all those archival releases...listen, you Primates have no idea who you're dealing with when it comes to OCD musical knowledge), and I definitely love them, but I'd say that Pavement packed a bit more punch into a shorter, more consistent span. Honestly, my favorite era of The Fall runs from Grotesque (After The Gramme) to This Nation's Saving Grace, which is only five years as opposed to Pavement's decade long dominance.
Also, I reject the facile "Pavement was a ripoff of The Fall!" argument. They were nothing like The Fall save for a very few songs on their early EPs and albums. ("Conduit For Sale!" is a definite rip off of "New Face In Hell," and "Hit The Plane Down" and "Forklift" are also clearly influenced.) The key difference is this: Pavement was always, ALWAYS, about melody first and foremost. The Fall were always, ALWAYS about repetition first and foremost.
They're both great bands, though.
The opening notes and chorus of "Smells Like Teen Spirit".
I have too much music in my head at the moment to mine it for others, and I don't want to list anything that I just LIKE vs. what will last. Others?
Excellent, you picked up on my drift. I like the idea of listing the "iconic" moments in rock/pop/avant music. Of course people are going to differ on these things (witness Tom saying my Gabriel/Genesis reference seemed starkly out of place), but that's okay. As far as I'm concerned these are the moments that made me, a music-lover and musician, step back and say "whoa...this is a watermark in rock music right here."
iconic = guitars + castanets beginning Hendrix's "All Along The Watchtower."
iconic = the "do do do do doo, dee do, da doo da doo" ending of "Suite: Judy Blue Eyes."
iconic = Neil Young unwittingly advising Kurt Cobain that "it's better to burn out than to fade away."
iconic = Robert Smith coupling the most depressing lyrics with the most upbeat music imaginable on "In-Between Days"...The Cure summarized in the opening 35 seconds.
iconic = the first five notes of Kid A. ("Everything In Its Right Place")
Do you mean the baseline?
I think for me, Eso, "iconic" (and your lists are good, with only a couple exceptions) is a little more specific as far as what the average folks think and remember. I'm not sure "Inbetween Days" (one of my favorite songs of all time) will last as long as the opening of "Never Let Me Down" of Depeche Mode from the same era.
And "What I Say" is iconic the whole way through -- I can't parse one thing out of it without feeling like I'm cheating another part of the song.
I remember as a very little kid, all of my fellow little kids and I would run around singing "You Ain't Nuttin' But a Hound Dog". We didn't know any other words. Years later, a little girl in our neighborhood would run around singing "If you break my heart, my achy-breaky heart". That's all she knew -- in its way, it's iconic. Please forgive me if the tune is stuck in your head the rest of the night.
I agree those are superficial differences; the real difference is more esthetic. Whereas Genesis/Gabriel is progressive, carefully structured, theatrical, self-important, worldbeat-influenced, Pavement is scruffy, shambolic, irreverent (toward itself most of all), tossed-off yet heartfelt. (Pavement has plenty of instrumental virtuosity of its own, too.)
It's impossible to imagine Youssou N'Dour on a Pavement record; it's impossible to imagine Gary Young playing on a Peter Gabriel record.
It's got nothing to do with genre differences. I wouldn't be at all surprised by someone who likes both Pavement and Merle Haggard; in fact I know lots of people like that. It just seems that Genesis and Pavement are both within that broad genre known as rock & roll bands, but in opposite corners.
I conic = the Shahid Quintet's line "how much black power can you fit in a can of kerosene?" from "Invitation to Black Power"
I conic = Q65's blistered scream/chant of "CAUSE IIIIIII'MMMMMM INNNNNN LLLLLLLOVE!" during "It Came To Me"
I conic = the divastating opening geetar riff of "99/half" by Mavis Staples
I conic = the great DiMag of Home Blitz stopping in the middle of "Hey!" to ask for more gum
I conic = the xylophone break on Page France's "Chariot"...that almost had me believing.
I love both bands. I was around in 1977, and was listening to both my import copy of the first Clash album, and Wind & Wuthering. Not to mention Emmylou Harris's Luxury Liner, Thin Lizzy's Bad Reputation, and Warren Zevon's self-titled album. I never gave a damn over whether what I was listening to was cool or not. I like what I like.
Selling England by the Pound was my favorite album for about 20 years, and it's still probably in my top five. Genesis, the Gabriel/Hackett/Banks/Collins/Rutherford band, was one of the most inventive, melodic, and funny bands that has ever existed. And if the music snobs can't see that (and I'm not including you in that statement, because your remarks are well thought-out and reasonable), that's their problem...
Fair enough, and I understand your point. I never set out at the beginning of my personal musical odyssey to become "that guy" who loves everything spanning the gamut from high prog to lo-fi, it just sort of happened that. I think it was a function of natural progressions; I first encountered Pavement back in college, buying Slanted & Enchanted on a strong recommendation from a friend. And you know what? I HATED it. HATED it. Thought it was the most tuneless, noisy, shittily produced alt-rock nonsense imaginable. But then again at that point I was still firmly stuck in a "nothing from beyond 1977 is worth hearing" ghetto. Very mainstream in terms of my classic rock tastes. But after spending awhile exploring bands like Radiohead (who are a natural extension of Genesis, musically...though only Thom Yorke has the balls to admit it) and then Can and The Fall (after reading up on Radiohead's influences), I finally came back to "this old CD" in my collection by that random-ass band Pavement. And finally, after giving it that second chance, I was blown away. Literally flattened. Then I went and bought Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain and was hammered even further into the ground. ("Silence Kit," "Elevate Me Later," "Gold Soundz," and "Fillmore Jive" are still some of my favorite Pavement songs. So for me, at least, it's really down to the journey. I started with The Beatles, moved on to their peers (Who, Stones, Hendrix), and branched out ever outwards from there.
Looking at my collection right now, it might seem psychotic that I share similar esteem for Younger Than Yesterday (The Byrds), Spirit Of Eden (Talk Talk), Wowee Zowee (Pavement), Head (The Monkees), Going For The One (Yes), For Certain Because... (The Hollies), The Wild, The Innocent & The E Street Shuffle (Springsteen), and Future Days (Can). But to me it all makes sense - in a very real sense my physical record collection (which is at this point becoming nearly unmanageable) is a reflection of my chronological development, my maturing as a muso and musician.
For the record:
The 5 objectively greatest bands/artists:
1.) The Beatles
2.) The Who
3.) The Rolling Stones
4.) Bob Dylan
5.) TIE: The Byrds, The Velvet Underground
My 5 favorite bands/artists (note general lack of overlap:
1.) Genesis
2.) Radiohead
3.) Pavement
4.) The Who
5.) TIE: The Grateful Dead/XTC
My 5 favorite albums of all time:
1.) Quadrophenia - The Who (has anyone's artistic ambitions ever measured up to their actual abilities so perfect as Pete Townshend's did on this album?)
2.) Selling England By The Pound - Genesis (the second half of "Cinema Show" is still, after all these years, the greatest five minutes of instrumental rock music ever written and recorded IMHO)
3.) Murmur - R.E.M. (still the greatest debut album by any band ever...this sounds like it was made by a band that had been recording for years)
4.) Black Sea - XTC (almost makes you wish nerds ruled the world. actually, maybe they do.)
5.) Station To Station - David Bowie (oh my TVC-15...)
HONORABLE MENTION: Kid A - Radiohead (simply put, the best album by the greatest group making music in our time)
2ND HONORABLE MENTION: The Band - The Band (written and recorded in 1969 or 1869? if you didn't know already, how could you be sure? a miracle of empathy, assimilation, and Burkean - yes, Burkean! - innovation)
Exactly right. Tony Banks' mellotron theme on "The Cinema Show" is my favorite melody, by anyone, in any style of music, ever...
Dude, I think I love you. (Okay, I haven't slept for 48 hrs, cut me some slack.) Selling England is (as you can see from the above post) one of my favorite albums of all time. What amazes me about Genesis - the Hackett years really sing to me the most, though I rate Duke and Abacab highly as well - is their staying power. I've been listening to them for more than a decade now and even though I've absorbed so much great music since then, and moved other favorites from that era down my personal ranks (Beatles, Stones, etc.), Genesis consistently hangs on at the top. I've memorized every note of both The Beatles and Genesis...but I only occasionally listen to the Fabs these days. Whereas I regularly return to Foxtrot, Selling England, Trick Of The Tail, and Duke. ("Duchess" may be 'late-period' Genesis - more art-rock than prog-rock - but it's one of their five greatest achievements...I advise you to check out the opening three songs on Duke if you haven't heard them recently.) Ultimately it's because they combine beautiful melodies and pleasing structural complexity (always in service to the music, not merely obscurantist for its own sake) with real emotional punch.
I'll say it again: that haunting keyboard/drums/rhythm guitar + bass pedals trio performance at the end of "Cinema Show" is an iconic moment in rock music itself. I've played that music for a ton of people, from dreamy artsy poetic types to fratty football players to punk-rock iconoclasts, and I invariably get a "whoa, I totally thought this would suck 'cause it's Genesis, but...it's really moving" sort of reaction.
Ahahaha, we're bouncing off each other here. Needless to say (in light of my last post amplifying my love of "Cinema Show," written before I saw your response), I agree with you 100%.
To the rest of the Primates: for ####'s sake, find yourself a copy of Selling England By The Pound. If you have even the slightest anglophiliac bone in your body, and aren't morally opposed to songs that last more than four minutes, it's a can't-miss bombshell. Even noted ex-Village Voice hipsterdouchebag critic Robert Christgau loved it. The highest rating he's ever given to a straight prog album, and that's no accident.
Ahh...learn the fine art of purging.
HINT: When flung from a third story Wishbone Ash's "Argus" LP makes a delightful whirring noise while the white/beige cover picks up an almost op-art appearance during spinnage.
Can't purge. OCD completist tendencies prevent me from doing so. Also: the fact that at least two of my favorite albums were ones that I bought, dismissed upon an inattentive initial listen, and then returned to years later to find that they were masterpieces. (Those two would be Slanted & Enchanted and Murmur.) So I keep everything, figuring that there's always a chance I'll come back to it down the line and discover a lost gem.
I do keep my collection under control by filing the CDs in band-alphabetical/chronological order in CaseLogic folders and then storing the jewel cases away at my parents' house. Only the boxed sets remain in their original packaging...but that alone is now taking up a ridiculous amount of shelf real estate. Still you can't ask me to toss my Doobie Brothers boxed set out the window! I really dig "What A Fool Believes!"
I prefer the xylophone break in Los Campesinos! "Broken Heartbeats Sound Like Breakbeats". Plus it namechecks Spiderman.
The opening riff of "Satisfaction"
The viola solo on "Baba O'Riley"
The harmonizing and theremin at the end of "Good Vibrations"
The solo on "Crossroads"
The "opera" part of "Bohemian Rhapsody"
The bassline on "Every Breath You Take"
I think you mean Andy Summers' guitar on that one. The bassline's not really much to look at.
A Dozen Iconics:
Bach's Toccata & Fugue in d
Ravel's String Quartet
Jacqueline du Pre's version of Elgar's Cello Concerto
Beethoven's 14th String Quartet
Etta James's "I'd Rather Be Blind"
Bobby Blue Bland's "Members Only"
Erma Franklin's "Piece of My Heart"
Lorraine Ellison's "Stay With Me"
The Louvin Brothers' "You're Running Wild" & "Alabama"
Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man"
June Carter Cash's "Fair and Tender Ladies"
But we're kind of losing things that people actually remember now. There is a level of public recognition that comes with these definitions, no matter how much we eschew their (the public's) judgment. ;-)
Bassline and theme to Part 1 of "A Love Supreme" by John Coltrane
Contrapuntal opening piano riff to "In A Sentimental Mood" by Duke Ellington
Sampled dobro hook on "Loser" by Beck (with a tip of the cap to Dr. John)
I like "Chariot" - it's the only Page France song I'm keeping in my ongoing music collection cleanup.
As for iconic (not necessarily great) indie moments, the opening to "Last Splash" by the Breeders is up there.
Finally, a group mentioned by Repoz that I've heard of. :)
I conic = the Shahid Quintet's line "how much black power can you fit in a can of kerosene?" from "Invitation to Black Power"
Never heard of 'em. But that's one great line.
Bassline and theme to Part 1 of "A Love Supreme" by John Coltrane
I told my music-loving son that he has to start listening to "Love Supreme".
Leslie Gore mewling "It's my party and I'll cry if I want to"
Mike Love nasally whining "I'm gettin' bugged drivin' up and down the same old strip"
Neil Young whimpering about how he can't find a "heart of gold"
James Brown post-coitally roaring "I feel good"
Hank Williams moaning about her "cold, cold heart"
Kurt Cobain's opening chord riff to "Smells like Teen Spirit", plus the band's emphatic entry after that intro
Elvis sexily crooning "any way you do, that's all right"
I mean, I've got most of their catalogue and I recognize the moments of greatness, but they're just not my cup of tea.
I suppose I would objectively place them somewhere amongst the pantheon, but they're certainly not crowding my desert island CD stack (some of their songs would make my desert island iPod -- but then, I think Sister Golden Hair would be, too -- and I wouldn't dream using the band America and "great" in the same sentance).
Thanks, Andy. One of my favorite songs although it might take me a couple of listens to appreciate Dolphy's flute in this version. :) I love the black and white film; it's film like this makes me think for a moment that the world was in black and white in those days (even though I do remember that '61 was in color).
Giant Steps is one of those records no horn player can live without, and "Naima" still blows me away every time I hear it. Live at Birdland is one of my favorite albums of his from that incredible 60s period, followed closely by Crescent mostly on the strength of "Lonnie's Lament" which is one of the best tunes ever written.
*Public Enemy: "Brothers and sisters, I don't know what this world is coming to!" EHHH EHHH EHHH ziggaziggazigga "Yes! The rhythm, the rebel"
Really, the beginning of almost any classic PE joint is iconic.
*Run-DMC knocking down the wall in the "Walk This Way" video.
*The guitar loop on Craig G's "Droppin' Science"
*Nas snuffing Jesus in his first recorded verse.
*Biz on the beatbox
*BDP's foreboding piano signaling the end of MC Shan's career
I missed this thread the first time. I was in Austin for a work conference and, fortuitously, SXSW. But Robinred, it looks like we have more in common than just our irrational dislike of Tony LaRussa. The Pogues top my list of all-time favorites.
-The opening guitar/synth/bass combo on Dr. Dre's "Nuthin' But a 'G' Thang" and Snoop Dogg starting off "1, 2, 3 and to the 4..."
-The drum-and-sleigh-bells sample at the beginning of Eric B. & Rakim's "Microphone Fiend" (also used in Nas' "Halftime," another classic)
-AZ's verse on Nas' "Life's a #####," which was enough to earn him a record deal
-The piano sample of Michael McDonald's "I Keep Forgettin'" on Warren G's "Regulate" (plus Nate Dogg singing "If you know like I know..." at the end)
-Kool Keith revolutionizing rhyme schemes on the Ultramagnetic MC's "Ego' Trippin'"
-The bass and Q-Tip's rapping "Back in the days when I was a teenager/ Before I had status and before I had a pager..." on ATCQ's "Excursions"
-The sample of Parliament's "Come In Out of the Rain" on OutKast's "Elevators," plus Andre 3000 rapping "By the end of the week we live by the beat like you live check to check/ If you don't move your feet then I don't eat so we like neck to neck"
-The kung-fu dialogue and RZA shouting "Bring the muthafuckin' ruckus" over a barebones sample of Melvin Bliss' "Synthetic Substitution" on Wu-Tang's "Bring Da Ruckus"
-Mary J. Blige's hook and Jay-Z's unbeatable flow on "Can't Knock the Hustle"
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