Not bad - I'd play Mac at DH and Gold Glover Palmeiro at 1B. Also, we gotta figure Ron Santo could play 3B. Maybe he was a commie.

There are red flags all over the place on Pudge, but I don't think he's officially received the scarlet letter yet.

There are red flags all over the place on Pudge, but I don't think he's officially received the scarlet letter yet.

Wills and Garvey don't belong on this list, since they're not HOFers anyway. And if McGwire can't get in, it's obvious that Palmeiro won't. The four real litmus tests are Bonds, Clemens, Sosa and Rodriguez.

If Bonds and Clemens get in, that'll mean that steroids aren't an absolute disqualifier to at least 75% of the voters.

And if Sosa and Rodriguez don't get in, that'll mean that the writers are playing the lazy man's game of Guilt By Era Association, and not even making a pretense of looking at individual cases.

And if Sosa and Rodriguez don't get in, that'll mean that the writers are playing the lazy man's game of Guilt By Era Association, and not even making a pretense of looking at individual cases.

This is actually the first writer I've seen argue against Pudge because of steroids. That said, to be fair to the author and Sammy Sosa, I believe (having never actually read the book) that Canseco wrote about first-hand knowledge of Rodriguez's juicing when they were teammates in Texas, whereas all Canseco could say about Sosa was, "Look at him! He's huge! And those homers!! It must be the juice!" In fact, that's all that Mark Grace could say about Sosa and they shared a locker room for almost a decade and it was fairly well-known that Grace hated Sosa and would have been glad to throw him under the bus if one was available to him.

Wills and Garvey don't belong on this list, since they're not HOFers anyway.

If you're going just by best guys at a position not in the HOF, they should obviously be replaced by Trammell and Santo. Although he seems to be criticizing the HOF's application of the "character clause" which really has nothing to do with why Trammell and Santo aren't in the Hall. Then again, I don't think the "character clause" really has anything to do with why Garvey and Wills aren't in the Hall; I think they're not in the Hall because, as Andy says, "they're not HOFers anyway".

Then again, I don't think the "character clause" really has anything to do with why Garvey and Wills aren't in the Hall; I think they're not in the Hall because, as Andy says, "they're not HOFers anyway".

In the case of Mills, I agree with that, but in the case of Garvey, the character clause obviously plays heavily into his omission. During his prime, he was a perpetual all-star, MVP candidate, and GG winner, and he did all the things that the writers like (hit for average, drive in runs, talk to them). If all the stuff about his infidelities doesn't come out, he stood a decent chance of getting elected.

Hell, even with all the infidelities coming out, he still was consistently breaking 40% in the voting.

Now, that's not saying that I'd vote for him, because I wouldn't (even if I had a vote).

Garvey was certainly seen as somebody with HOF potential in his prime. In his early 30s, though, he stopped hitting .300, stopped collecting his annual 200 hits, got hurt and lost his consecutive-game streak, and failed to reach 3,000 H or 300 HR. I think that mediocre post-30 performance cost him more than his character shortcomings. Dale Murphy had similar problems with sterling character.

(played 3B early in career)

I don't care that BBREF says he played 191 games at 3rd.
Garvey couldn't play third because he was physically incapable of throwing the ball in the air from 3rd to 1st.
This was a man who never ever threw to the pitcher covering 1B

Ok I exaggerate, but I can't believe that a good MLB team that had any clue about what it was doing (And the Dodgers' organization of the 60s and 70s was as fine an org as you will ever see) would waste so much time trying to see if Steve Garvey could play a passable 3b...

Ok I exaggerate, but I can't believe that a good MLB team that had any clue about what it was doing (And the Dodgers' organization of the 60s and 70s was as fine an org as you will ever see) would waste so much time trying to see if Steve Garvey could play a passable 3b...

That really is remarkable. As a first baseman, he really had one of the worst arms I've ever seen on a major leaguer. Was it better when he came up, because, like JPWF13, I can't imagine him shotputting more than two or three balls to first from the hot corner before realizing that wasn't going to work?

I think that mediocre post-30 performance cost him more than his character shortcomings.

Come on, being a Nazi sympathizer and a child molester are pretty bad, even to a morally questionable group such as the BBWAA.

If all the stuff about his infidelities doesn't come out, he stood a decent chance of getting elected.

The thing that Garvey's character issues may have cost him was a group of writers who were willing to campaign/advocate for him like Jim Rice, for example, had with the Boston media. But Jim Rice also had a strong superficial case for his advocates to argue - most HR, RBI, TB over a 12-year period (75-86).

I'm not sure that it would be nearly as easy to construct a case for Garvey, even superficially - he had <2,600 hits, <300 HRs, batted under .300 for his career. He's got a nice little seven-year peak where he hit .310 or better 6 times, had 200+ hits 6 times (1977 broke both strings), 100+ RBI 5 times. But he doesn't have any season or any stat that jumps off the page and screams, "Look at what I did! I'm a Hall-of-Famer!!" the way Rice's 1978 season does. I suspect his advocates would have pointed to the consecutive games and argued about what a pitcher's park Dodger Stadium was, but I suspect that even with Dale Murphy's (who has a better HOF argument) character that wouldn't have been enough.

Sosa didn't have to take steroids. He just corked his bat. Which is still cheating. But the good kind. Like a spit ball or stealing signs.

Come on, being a Nazi sympathizer and a child molester are pretty bad, even to a morally questionable group such as the BBWAA.

I think the line is that Garvey was great, but wickedly great.

I'd play Mac at DH and Gold Glover Palmeiro at 1B

McGwire was a GG winner in 1990.

There are red flags all over the place on Pudge, but I don't think he's officially received the scarlet letter yet.

Of course he took steroids. He lost weight.

1B Mark McGwire: Bulked up too big to fit in Hall.

Of course he took steroids. He gained weight.

RF Sammy Sosa

Of course he took steroids. His weight didn't change.

Of course he took steroids. He lost weight.

In the offseason immediately following the institution of steroid/PED testing. It doesn't prove anything, but it will look suspicious to a lot of people, in terms of timing.

In the case of Mills, I agree with that, but in the case of Garvey, the character clause obviously plays heavily into his omission. During his prime, he was a perpetual all-star, MVP candidate, and GG winner, and he did all the things that the writers like (hit for average, drive in runs, talk to them). If all the stuff about his infidelities doesn't come out, he stood a decent chance of getting elected.

Garvey saw his support collapse during the latter years of his ballot tenure-he peaked at 42.6% in his 3rd year, but dropped all the way to 20.5% by the 13th year.

As a first baseman, he really had one of the worst arms I've ever seen on a major leaguer. Was it better when he came up, because, like JPWF13, I can't imagine him shotputting more than two or three balls to first from the hot corner before realizing that wasn't going to work?

I think we might be indulging in just a wee bit of hyperbole over how bad Garvey's arm was.

It wasn't good, and obviously not good for a third baseman. But he was quick on his feet (especially when he was young), and had those butter-soft hands. But, yes, the Dodgers did finally have to conclude that his throwing was problematic enough that he wasn't going to make it as a major league 3B.

The Dodgers in that era were extraorinarily assertive, one might even say obsessed, with shifting players around to new defensive positions, in the minors and even at the major league level. Ted Sizemore was converted from catcher to shortstop to second base. Bill Sudakis was converted from third base to catcher. Bill Russell was converted from outfield to shortstop, and Dave Lopes was converted from outfield to second base. And Billy Grabarkewitz and Bobby Valentine were constantly shifting all over the place.

You certainly would have seen more of him than I did Steve, being older and a west coast NL fan, and likely saw him 10-15 times more often than I ever did. And I'll readily acknowledge that he had a lot of gifts with the glove that allowed him to overcome his arm. But I'm not engaging in hyperbole (I may be wrong, but I wasn't exaggerating) when I say that his arm was one of the worst I've ever seen on a big league ballplayer (particularly on an aesthetic level).

But I'm not engaging in hyperbole (I may be wrong, but I wasn't exaggerating) when I say that his arm was one of the worst I've ever seen on a big league ballplayer (particularly on an aesthetic level).

It was bad, and as he became further and further removed from his 3B days and made it a practice to make as few throws as possible playing 1B, it not surprisingly got worse. But I think you've hit on something about the aesthetics of his throwing: it was that awkward "shotputting" kind of motion you mention that made his throws look uglier than they were. When he played third, he'd kind of short-arm the ball the first, and while his throws were kind of hump-backed they were usually pretty accurate.

I suspect you never saw Harmon Killebrew play. His arm wasn't quite as weak as Garvey's, but it was close, and in general Killebrew and Garvey shared a lot of defensive characteristics: built like a mailbox, with thick, short arms and legs, yet actually pretty agile, good hands but poor throwing ability.

EDIT: Dick Allen was another guy with the same basic characteristics, although his legs weren't as thick and he ran pretty well.

Billy Grabarkewitz! He was the answer to a trivia question I myself asked here a few months ago, and I have no recollection at all of what the question was.

[EDIT: He was the person whose record for strikeouts in a season by a Dodger was broken by Matt Kemp]

Yup, just a little too young to remember seeing Killer or Allen play.

I don't recall Killebrew, although I started following baseball in his final year. I sort of associate him with Allen because Bill James did in the OBJHA.

Good ol Billy Grabinass.

Has everyone forgotten Ken Caminiti already? sniff...

I think the line is that Garvey was great, but wickedly great.

I had no idea he played in Boston.

Honorable mention to Bert Blyleven for this.

I'd play Mac at DH and Gold Glover Palmeiro at 1B.

No, you've gotta play Palmeiro at DH, his defense was Gold Glove quality there.