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Tuesday, November 06, 2012

Shaikin: Making a case for Roger Clemens, Hall of Fame candidate

Shaikin fit!

lp

Michael Attanasio, co-counsel for Clemens in the case, criticized those writers who he said already have indicated they would substitute their judgment for that of the jury.

“For them to say, ‘He’s not getting into the Hall of Fame because I know he did it’?” Attanasio said. “I think that’s shameful.”

Rusty Hardin, the lead counsel for Clemens, said he would consider sending voters a briefing book on the trial.

“I would think that if a baseball writer really wanted conscientiously to cast a vote on one of the greatest pitchers of all time, go look at the evidence,” Hardin said. “See, after you read it, why the jury did it. It wasn’t a crazy jury.”

...Attanasio suggested the pitcher’s willingness to risk his freedom to convince a jury he did not cheat spoke eloquently to his integrity, sportsmanship and character.

“That absolutely should go to his credit, in terms of that clause and the vote,” Attanasio said. “It’s a little sanctimonious to hear writers talk about it, given that [admitted spitballer] Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame.

“But to think Roger shouldn’t be in because of what Brian McNamee said is insane.”

Repoz Posted: November 06, 2012 at 08:02 AM | 55 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: clemens, hof

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. BDC Posted: November 06, 2012 at 09:48 AM (#4294219)
Well, getting elected to a Hall of Fame ≠ beating the rap.

Anyway, if you're a steroids hardliner, Clemens is out. If not, he's overqualified. I'm not; he's on my mock ballot.
   2. Mirabelli Dictu (Chris McClinch) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 10:38 AM (#4294267)
Exactly right. Unless you believe that alleged steroid use is an automatic disqualifier, Clemens is as automatic as Hall of Famers get.

I'm in the camp that would vote for Clemens on his first ballot. For me, the hard line is failing a test after the game had a testing policy in place. Use before the testing policy is no different from throwing a legal spitter in my eyes: behavior tacitly or openly encouraged as part of the level playing field within the game. I can't get any more worked up over steroids pre-2005 than I can over steroids in the NFL, the NBA, or professional bodybuilding. If the sport doesn't care and even encourages their use, why do I?
   3. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: November 06, 2012 at 10:42 AM (#4294273)
I care about steroid use - I don't think that the implementation of a testing program was an indifferent thing, it was a good thing. It's good for players to be under less pressure to use these sorts of drugs.

But it's really hard for me to see individual users, pre-testing, as worthy of particular censure. And further, it's really hard for me to see how the media's policing of past use will end up being any good at identifying actual users and non-users.

I'm a Clemens voter, obviously. I think he could still pitch in the majors if he got back into shape. He's kind of incredible.
   4. dlf Posted: November 06, 2012 at 10:48 AM (#4294279)
After the trial, my only hesitancy in voting for Clemens is whether he is really retired. I'm not sure I'd like a Mario Lemieux like situation where a previously elected player is back in the game. Six years should be enough to weed out nearly every Brett Farve return, but like MCA above, I think Clemens could (and perhaps will) still pitch.
   5. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: November 06, 2012 at 10:53 AM (#4294283)
A baseball hall of fame without Clemens, Bonds, or eventually A-Rod would just be pointless and silly. That could be huge for the Hall of Merit.
   6. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: November 06, 2012 at 11:15 AM (#4294304)
Clemens will never make the Hall of Fame...because he'll never retire.
   7. Rants Mulliniks Posted: November 06, 2012 at 11:17 AM (#4294306)
That could be huge for the Hall of Merit


Does the Hall of Merit actually exist anywhere yet? I think it needs an actual location that can be visited in person before we can start making any rational comparisons bewteen it and Cooperstown. I thnk the HoM is a great idea, but really, its not much more than just an idea at this point.
   8. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4294332)

Michael Attanasio, co-counsel for Clemens in the case

Any relation to Brewers owner Mark Attanasio?
   9. John Northey Posted: November 06, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4294333)
Well, we are at the year of the joke ballot - Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro all listed as 'enhanced' players plus the 'kinda/sorta' suspected Piazza and Bagwell. 7 guys, only 1 who actually tested positive, who would be fairly easy HOF choices if it wasn't for the steroids/HGH stuff. Mix in Biggio, Schilling, Raines, Walker, Trammell, and Edgar Martinez who all have strong cases (lock for Biggio based on 3000 hits) plus other strong candidates in David Wells (239 wins), Fred McGriff (493 HR), Kenny Lofton (64.9 rWAR), ... and you have a stuffed ballot.

Yet, sadly, I fear that we'll be seeing Jack Morris get in along with (maybe) Biggio. What a farce that would be. Not to mention if Lee Smith gets more votes than many of those guys (he was over 50% last time).
   10. Nasty Nate Posted: November 06, 2012 at 11:45 AM (#4294356)
What is the list for Top 5 most famous games started by Clemens?
The top 2 are pretty much set:
1. 1986 World Series Game 6
2. 2001 World Series Game 7

After that, the list has to be filled out with some of the following: 2003 ALCS game 7, some world series game(s) from 1999, 2000, 2003, or 2005, the Zimmer V Pedro game, the 20K games, the Piazza incidents, 2000 ALCS game 4, the 1990 playoff game that he was ejected from, 2005 NLDS game 4 (ok he only relieved in this game), etc ...I'm probably forgetting a big one or 2.
   11. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 11:52 AM (#4294369)
Clemens (and Bonds) are ridiculously overqualified (whatever boost you ascribe to steroids, they were HoFers before they started).

But they both were key figures in a sordid embarrassing chapter of Baseball history, and both seem like truly nasty, reprehensible people.

If I had a vote, I'd give them ten years to stew on it, and then vote for them.
   12. Random Transaction Generator Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:08 PM (#4294389)
I think Clemens' return to Boston as Blue Jay would have to be somewhere on that list.

8IP 16K 1R and a glare to the owners box.
   13. dlf Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:26 PM (#4294408)
But they both were key figures in a sordid embarrassing chapter of Baseball history, and both seem like truly nasty, reprehensible people.



There are a lot of 'truly nasty, reprehensible people' in the Hall of Fame. I can't see excluding Clemens (or Bonds) from an institution that includes Cap Anson, Ty Cobb, and plenty of other reprobates unless it is a steriod penalty. And after the evidence against Clemens evaoporated in a puff of smoke during the trial^^ I can't see holding steroids against him unless one was to omit everyone from this generation.

^^Seriously, the government spent tens of millions of dollars to prosecute him and the best that they could find was an admitted fabricator of evidence who changed his story even during the trial plus one, possibly misheard, statement to someone with whom he trained day after day, hour after hour who never once saw Clemens use or had anything remotely like a detailed discussion on the issue. I'm faced with choosing between Clemens being a brilliant mastermind who flouted the rules but had no one know or assuming the null hypothesis that the tens of millions couldn't find evidence that he committed these acts because he didn't do it.
   14. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4294416)
As to the issue constantly raised in these discussions, that some players using steroids forced other players to risk their health to use them:

We're now 25 years since the dawn of the Steroids Era in baseball. Has a single player died or suffered serious health problems because of steroids?
   15. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:34 PM (#4294423)
Shaikin: Making a case for Roger Clemens, Hall of Fame candidate
1. He's the best pitcher you've ever seen or ever will see.
2. He broke no rules.
3. The government spent tens of millions of dollars and couldn't find any credible evidence he did anything even close to breaking any rules.
4. Duh.
   16. villageidiom Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4294439)
We're now 25 years since the dawn of the Steroids Era in baseball. Has a single player died or suffered serious health problems because of steroids?
Not knowable unless medical records are made public. Obviously death is a medical condition in the public domain, but cause of death is not always. But that's a trivial point compared to "suffered serious health problems", which would be generally private info. I don't think we can conclude anything based on lack of public information.
   17. slothinator Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4294440)
As to the issue constantly raised in these discussions, that some players using steroids forced other players to risk their health to use them:

We're now 25 years since the dawn of the Steroids Era in baseball. Has a single player died or suffered serious health problems because of steroids?


Ken Caminiti
   18. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4294467)
Ken Caminiti


You mean the guy with the chronic coke problem who died of acute cocaine intoxication?
   19. TDF, situational idiot Posted: November 06, 2012 at 01:03 PM (#4294474)
we are at the year of the joke ballot - Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro all listed as 'enhanced' players plus the 'kinda/sorta' suspected Piazza and Bagwell. 7 guys, only 1 who actually tested positive, who would be fairly easy HOF choices if it wasn't for the steroids/HGH stuff.
Of those, there's compelling evidence against exatcly 3: Bonds (who says only he didn't know the "clear" and "cream" were steroids), McGwire (who admitted using), and Palmeiro (who tested positive). Other than that...

Clemens: The only evidence is the testimony of an admitted serial liar, which a jury found wasn't compelling.
Sosa: He hit alot of HRs.
Piazza: He hit well and had "backne".
Bagwell: He hit well and had big muscles.

Seriously, are you Murray Chass?
   20. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4294517)
After the trial, my only hesitancy in voting for Clemens is whether he is really retired. I'm not sure I'd like a Mario Lemieux like situation where a previously elected player is back in the game. Six years should be enough to weed out nearly every Brett Farve return, but like MCA above, I think Clemens could (and perhaps will) still pitch.


It would be ####### awesome if Clemens came back after getting inducted. And I am pretty sure the Astros suck (and will for a while) so MAKE IT HAPPEN.
   21. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 01:29 PM (#4294523)
Seriously, are you Murray Chass?


I think you might be reading that post wrong. It's inarguable that a large amount of writers view those seven players in a tainted light; I don't think Northey is declaring them cheaters, just calling it like it is.
   22. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 02:32 PM (#4294651)
Of those, there's compelling evidence against exatcly 32: Bonds (who says only he didn't know the "clear" and "cream" were steroids), McGwire (who admitted using), and Palmeiro (who tested positive). Other than that...
FIFY.

Bonds did not say that he did not know that the clear and the cream were steroids. There was no testimony that Bonds took the clear or the cream. Bonds said he used an ointment at one point, and he also said that he took flaxseed oil. Nobody said that the ointment he took was the cream, or that the flaxseed oil was the clear. True, if they were, Bonds said he wasn't aware of it. But that's an if.
   23. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4294655)
There are a lot of 'truly nasty, reprehensible people' in the Hall of Fame. I can't see excluding Clemens (or Bonds) from an institution that includes Cap Anson, Ty Cobb, and plenty of other reprobates unless it is a steriod penalty. And after the evidence against Clemens evaoporated in a puff of smoke during the trial^^ I can't see holding steroids against him unless one was to omit everyone from this generation.

And, I wouldn't exclude them. I'd just make them wait a little bit.
   24. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: November 06, 2012 at 03:11 PM (#4294700)
What is the list for Top 5 most famous games started by Clemens?
The top 2 are pretty much set:
1. 1986 World Series Game 6
2. 2001 World Series Game 7

After that, the list has to be filled out with some of the following: 2003 ALCS game 7, some world series game(s) from 1999, 2000, 2003, or 2005, the Zimmer V Pedro game, the 20K games, the Piazza incidents, 2000 ALCS game 4, the 1990 playoff game that he was ejected from, 2005 NLDS game 4 (ok he only relieved in this game), etc ...I'm probably forgetting a big one or 2.


I think Game 7 in 2003 belongs on the "set" list. It's not a start he made but I'm pretty certain he was scheduled to start 9/11 against the Red Sox with a chance to tie the MLB (or AL) record for consecutive victories.

Also, while not as famous as the games you mention the Sunday night Memorial Day weekend game when he and Pedro put on a show is about as famous a May game can be without anything on the order of a no hitter or four home runs happening.
   25. alilisd Posted: November 06, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4294765)
If I had a vote, I'd give them ten years to stew on it, and then vote for them.


Are you looking to move up this list of history's greatest monsters? :-)
   26. dlf Posted: November 06, 2012 at 03:45 PM (#4294773)
Bonds did not say that he did not know that the clear and the cream were steroids. There was no testimony that Bonds took the clear or the cream. Bonds said he used an ointment at one point, and he also said that he took flaxseed oil. Nobody said that the ointment he took was the cream, or that the flaxseed oil was the clear. True, if they were, Bonds said he wasn't aware of it. But that's an if.


I could, like Andy Pettitte, be misremembering, but I thought at his perjury trial, Bonds' lawyers acknowledged a positive PED test result, when talking about the supposed confidential baseline tests that were seized, his use while claiming it was without his knowledge. Was I mistaken? Or are you drawing a distinction between what Bonds' said and what his attorneys said on his behalf? And did I set a record for most subclauses in one sentence?
   27. jmurph Posted: November 06, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4294778)
What is the list for Top 5 most famous games started by Clemens?
The top 2 are pretty much set:
1. 1986 World Series Game 6
2. 2001 World Series Game 7

After that, the list has to be filled out with some of the following: 2003 ALCS game 7, some world series game(s) from 1999, 2000, 2003, or 2005, the Zimmer V Pedro game, the 20K games, the Piazza incidents, 2000 ALCS game 4, the 1990 playoff game that he was ejected from, 2005 NLDS game 4 (ok he only relieved in this game), etc ...I'm probably forgetting a big one or 2.


Don't forget Game 3 of the 1999 ALCS (Pedro v. Clemens), but then again I'm a Red Sox fan and was at the game. That one probably isn't on Roger's list.
   28. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4294780)
Clemens very nearly had two HOF careers:

* With Boston ages 21-33: 2776 innings, 144 ERA+

* After Boston, ages 34-44: 2140 innings, 140 ERA+
   29. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 03:52 PM (#4294787)
If we split them up a little differently:

Clemens from ages 21-32: 2533 innings, 145 ERA+

Clemens from ages 33-44: 2383 innings, 140 ERA+
   30. Walt Davis Posted: November 06, 2012 at 03:52 PM (#4294788)
Bonds did not say that he did not know that the clear and the cream were steroids. There was no testimony that Bonds took the clear or the cream. Bonds said he used an ointment at one point, and he also said that he took flaxseed oil. Nobody said that the ointment he took was the cream, or that the flaxseed oil was the clear.

Didn't they kinda stipulate to this at the trial though, maybe in his lawyer's opening statement? I don't recall the wording and likely it was couched in "this is not the issue in this trial" language, but I recall something in that vein.
   31. John Northey Posted: November 06, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4294836)
Seriously, are you Murray Chass?


Hah, hardly. I listed those 7 as the guys writers are holding a grudge against for the steroid era. Outside of the guys who have admitted it or been caught it is all speculation.

Given steroids were known about in the late 80's (Canseco was getting 'steroid' chants on the road all the time in '88) and that is when workouts went through the roof I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if many recent HOF'ers were users. From late career guys like Paul Molitor (121 OPS+ from age 21 to 33, 123 OPS+ from 34 to 41 with 4 of his 5 highest OPS+ seasons after age 33 and his highest at age 30 - sounds more suspicious than what we have against a lot of other guys) to guys who had strange power spikes like Kirby Puckett (4 HR his first 1327 PA, then 31 the next season and just once below 10 after that). Did those 2 use drugs? Who knows? But we have no more (or less) evidence on them than we have on most of the 7 on next years ballot.

Guys who played at least a bit in the steroid era (which I count as '88 on as once Canseco had his 40-40 season it was clear they could help) include Larkin, Alomar, Blyleven, Dawson, Rickey, Rice, Goose, Gwynn, Ripken, Boggs, Sandberg, Eck, Carter, Eddie Murray, Ozzie, Puckett, Winfield, Fisk, Brett, Ryan, Yount. Some others had a little time but I'd factor in those who had a few years. Athletes are naturally competitive. They want to win at all costs as a rule, especially at the highest levels. To think none of those guys would've done something to stick around a few more years or to push their performance to the next level is just silly. It'd be like thinking politicians won't "manipulate the truth" in order to win.
   32. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 05:01 PM (#4294919)
Didn't they kinda stipulate to this at the trial though, maybe in his lawyer's opening statement? I don't recall the wording and likely it was couched in "this is not the issue in this trial" language, but I recall something in that vein.
Allan Ruby (one of Bonds's lawyers) in his opening statement, did say something vaguely along those lines, yes, but opening statements are not evidence; they're predictions about what the evidence will show. It was basically, "They say he used steroids. Well, Barry didn't know what he was taking."

Lawyers routinely argue in the alternative ("I never borrowed that broken object"... "If I did, it was fine when I gave it back to you."... "If it wasn't, then it was already broken when I got it,") but sometimes to juries it's better to pick the simplest story. Rather than, "I didn't use steroids, and if I did I didn't know they were steroids," it's often easier to just say, "Barry didn't know what he was taking." Since the only issue in the case was whether his denials were truthful, it was really irrelevant whether they actually were steroids, and you don't want the jury focusing on that side issue.
   33. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 05:09 PM (#4294941)
Given steroids were known about in the late 80's (Canseco was getting 'steroid' chants on the road all the time in '88)
No, he wasn't. WaPo writer Thomas Boswell said it (on tv, not in the Post) on September 28, 1988, and that was the first time anyone had said it publicly. (The exact quote was "Jose Canseco is the most conspicuous example of a player who has made himself great with steroids.")

Canseco then got the chants from the RF stands during game one of the ALCS in Boston. It was a joking chant, nobody took it seriously, it clearly didn't bother Canseco, and it didn't come up again thereafter until the 2000s.
   34. Walt Davis Posted: November 06, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4294981)
Gwynn

He might have been taking steroids but he was definitely skipping the whole work-out part of the program.
   35. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: November 06, 2012 at 05:25 PM (#4294983)
Roger Clemens deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
   36. eric Posted: November 06, 2012 at 05:45 PM (#4295026)
Re: famous Clemens games.

Game 4, 2000 ALCS. 9IP 15K 1H, a line drive that just tipped off Tino Martinez's glove. May have been an A-rod brushback in there.
   37. SM Posted: November 06, 2012 at 06:03 PM (#4295060)
Canseco then got the chants from the RF stands during game one of the ALCS in Boston. It was a joking chant, nobody took it seriously, it clearly didn't bother Canseco, and it didn't come up again thereafter until the 2000s.


I don't think this is quite true. It was a "joking chant" in the sense that nobody really cared, nobody was calling for him to be banned or suspended or anything. But my memory is that people definitely thought that he (and McGwire) were using steroids at the time. But again, nobody really cared that they were beyond using it to taunt them.
   38. Buford J. Sharkley Posted: November 06, 2012 at 07:11 PM (#4295135)
Just making a rare Mainland appearance to say that Shakin' Fit, from Candy Records, is ABSOLUTELY SICK. The only record you'll ever need.

In the immortal words of Bill Robinson & The Quails: "You think you're doing the monkey, but you're milking the cow."
   39. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 07, 2012 at 11:29 AM (#4296763)
I don't think this is quite true. It was a "joking chant" in the sense that nobody really cared, nobody was calling for him to be banned or suspended or anything. But my memory is that people definitely thought that he (and McGwire) were using steroids at the time. But again, nobody really cared that they were beyond using it to taunt them.
No. Nobody even thought about McGwire at that point. And if people actually thought Canseco was using steroids, it would have come up at least once after that game; it didn't, until the steroid controversy restarted itself in this millennium.
   40. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 07, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4296948)
And if people actually thought Canseco was using steroids, it would have come up at least once after that game; it didn't, until the steroid controversy restarted itself in this millennium.


Of course, people thought Canseco was using steroids, and of course, it came up again. It doesn't include links to the original articles, but this book cites articles from October 1988 with titles such as "Report That He Used Steroids Denied by Canseco" and "Canseco Denies Using Steroids." Also, this link quotes Boswell from 1988 calling Canseco “the most conspicuous example of a player who has made himself great with steroids,” although I wish they linked to the original piece.
   41. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 07, 2012 at 02:00 PM (#4296964)
Of course, people thought Canseco was using steroids, and of course, it came up again. It doesn't include links to the original articles, but this book cites articles from October 1988 with titles such as "Report That He Used Steroids Denied by Canseco" and "Canseco Denies Using Steroids." Also, this link quotes Boswell from 1988 calling Canseco “the most conspicuous example of a player who has made himself great with steroids,” although I wish they linked to the original piece.
Uh, Tom, that's what we're talking about. That's not "again." That's the day it happened. (Or the day or two after, because apparently back in 1988 newspapers did not immediately publish their articles online.)

Oh, and there is no "original piece." Boswell said it on Charlie Rose on CBS, not in the paper.
   42. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 07, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4297060)
I lived in the Bay area back in the day and it was pretty much known even to young then me that Canseco was probably using. Big Mac was where some agreed and some didn't. But no one (especially the writers) really cared that much.
   43. TDF, situational idiot Posted: November 07, 2012 at 03:27 PM (#4297100)
Bonds did not say that he did not know that the clear and the cream were steroids. There was no testimony that Bonds took the clear or the cream. Bonds said he used an ointment at one point, and he also said that he took flaxseed oil. Nobody said that the ointment he took was the cream, or that the flaxseed oil was the clear. True, if they were, Bonds said he wasn't aware of it. But that's an if.
I stand corrected; I remembered it like #26.
Hah, hardly. I listed those 7 as the guys writers are holding a grudge against for the steroid era. Outside of the guys who have admitted it or been caught it is all speculation.
Again, I stand corrected. I misconstrued your "joke ballot" comment.
   44. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 07, 2012 at 03:31 PM (#4297102)
Uh, Tom, that's what we're talking about. That's not "again." That's the day it happened.


You didn't say "again," you said "after the game." People asked him about it after the game. Canseco denied usage, and the story quickly died thereafter, because nobody really cared if he was using steroids or not.
   45. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: November 07, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4297253)
.
   46. LargeBill Posted: November 07, 2012 at 07:48 PM (#4297444)
This might seem a little crazy, but seeing as we have no definitive way of KNOWING exactly everyone who did use and which of their competitors did not, maybe what BBWAA voters could do is evaluate player's careers based on what they accomplished on the field.

Just a thought.
   47. Darren Posted: November 07, 2012 at 11:21 PM (#4297584)
Most famous game for Clemens was definitely the Piazza bat shard game. Even non fans remember that one.
   48. Morty Causa Posted: November 07, 2012 at 11:28 PM (#4297588)
Yeah, that gorilla dust episode on the mound is indelible.
   49. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:08 AM (#4297692)
So, if a player with Clemens' career admits upon retirement to taking steroids for the entirety of his career, in or out?
   50. Gonfalon B. Posted: November 08, 2012 at 07:37 AM (#4297699)
Jose Canseco did an on-air interview during the 1988 playoffs in which he denied having taken steroids.
   51. LargeBill Posted: November 08, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4297834)
49. Jack Carter Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:08 AM (#4297692)
So, if a player with Clemens' career admits upon retirement to taking steroids for the entirety of his career, in or out?


In. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend any player make that admission until after induction ceremony.
   52. Booey Posted: November 08, 2012 at 01:21 PM (#4298035)
In. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend any player make that admission until after induction ceremony.


So what happens when a player already in the HOF admits years later that he roided (like Terry Bradshaw did. He's in the pro football HOF, right?)? Will there be a clamor by anti-PED zealots to remove his plaque?

It's gonna happen someday. Odds are there's already some steroid users in the baseball HOF.
   53. SoSH U at work Posted: November 08, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4298042)
So what happens when a player already in the HOF admits years later that he roided (like Terry Bradshaw did. He's in the pro football HOF, right?)? Will there be a clamor by anti-PED zealots to remove his plaque?


Bradshaw later said he hadn't used anabolic steroids. However, it's pretty commonly understood that his HoF center Mike Webster (and most of those Steelers) were juiced to the gills.

As for your hypothetical: at first, a tiny but irritating (and Repoz-linked) minority will call for them to be removed from the Hall. That will obviously not happen.

After that, said admission would serve as one of many boosts to the (I think) inevitable softening attitudes on steroid usage among Hall voters, leading to the eventual elections of those known and suspected steroids users down the road.



   54. bachslunch Posted: November 08, 2012 at 02:32 PM (#4298079)
So what happens when a player already in the HOF admits years later that he roided (like Terry Bradshaw did. He's in the pro football HOF, right?)? Will there be a clamor by anti-PED zealots to remove his plaque?

Historically, I don't think anyone has much cared whether Pro Football HoF-ers were PED users or not.
   55. Booey Posted: November 08, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4298137)
Historically, I don't think anyone has much cared whether Pro Football HoF-ers were PED users or not.


I know, but it would be different in baseball, as it always is for some reason. People would definitely care if an MLB HOFer admitted to juicing.

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Last: PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth)

NewsblogTony Oliva turns 76; Gardenhire: 'He should be in hall of fame'
(46 - 9:10pm, Jul 22)
Last: DavidFoss

NewsblogChase Headley traded to New York Yankees from San Diego Padres - ESPN New York
(79 - 9:05pm, Jul 22)
Last: shoewizard

NewsblogMLB: Astros telecasts catching on to advanced metrics
(10 - 9:02pm, Jul 22)
Last: Astroenteritis (tom)

NewsblogCowboy Monkey Rodeo taking the Minors by storm
(5 - 9:01pm, Jul 22)
Last: A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose)

NewsblogPoll: Does Citizens Bank Park really need metal detectors at the gates?
(28 - 8:56pm, Jul 22)
Last: RMc's desperate, often sordid world

NewsblogOTP - July 2014: Republicans Lose To Democrats For Sixth Straight Year In Congressional Baseball Game
(2714 - 8:47pm, Jul 22)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogAs shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change
(19 - 8:47pm, Jul 22)
Last: Jose Can Still Seabiscuit

SABR - BBTF ChapterWho's going to SABR??
(38 - 8:29pm, Jul 22)
Last: Mike Emeigh

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1956 Ballot
(6 - 7:33pm, Jul 22)
Last: Chris Fluit

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1956 Discussion
(33 - 7:31pm, Jul 22)
Last: Chris Fluit

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 7-22-2014
(16 - 7:16pm, Jul 22)
Last: Eric J can SABER all he wants to

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