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Monday, December 30, 2013

Sheldon Hirsch: Does Ichiro Belong in Hall of Fame?

Gene Sheldon speaks to me clearer than Sheldon Hirsch!

The challenge to Ichiro’s HOF credentials may seem absurd to his many fans but OPS is widely accepted as a valid statistic and wOBA just tweaks it. These statistics suggest that hitters with high batting averages but limited power and modest propensity to draw bases on balls (such as HOFers Wade Boggs, Rod Carew, and Tony Gwynn, as well as Pete Rose) have been overrated. These players best illustrate the difference between traditional (emphasizing base hits and batting average) and modern thinking (emphasizing reaching base safely and on-base percentage) about batting.

...But not so fast — from the sabermetric perspective, the same reservations that pertain to Ichiro’s entire career hold for the record-breaking 2004 season: few extra base hits (only 37), few walks (only 49), and a large number of outs (464). His 262 hits in a season is undoubtedly impressive, but had it occurred in 2013 when sabermetrics was more entrenched, it would have seemed less significant in the eyes of many.

Thus, Ichiro’s evaluation returns us to an elementary issue raised by sabermetricians: Were singles and batting average traditionally overrated?

The Baseball Writers Association of America (BBWAA), which votes on the HOF, clearly embraces traditional thinking, having twice voted Miguel Cabrera MVP over the sabermetric-favored Mike Trout. That suggests the writers will not pay heed to the re-evaluation of Ichiro’s numerous singles, and will induct him into the HOF.

However, sabermetrics continues to gain sway among managers, front offices, media and fans. Ichiro is at least six years away from formal consideration, during which time sabermetrics might yet infiltrate the BBWAA and regulate access to baseball’s Mecca. If that takes place, Ichiro’s induction, contrary to popular perception, might actually be in jeopardy. If he is denied induction, this would mark an important expansion of sabermetric influence and portend a change in future MVP and HOF voting.

Repoz Posted: December 30, 2013 at 01:10 AM | 146 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hof, sabermetrics

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   1.  Hey Gurl Posted: December 30, 2013 at 01:18 AM (#4626163)
659.5
   2. bobm Posted: December 30, 2013 at 01:28 AM (#4626168)
The Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame seems to be a lot more conveniently located than Cooperstown.

The Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, first of its kind in Japan, was opened in 1959 next door to Korakuen Stadium, the mecca of professional baseball in Japan. The stadium gave way to the Tokyo Dome in 1988. In the same year the museum moved to the present site within the Tokyo Dome. The new museum is twice as large as the old one. Its purpose is to contribute to the development of baseball in Japan through dedication of baseball greats--players, executives, and umpires-- as Hall of Famers and the exhibition and collection of as many memorable baseball materials as possible, including various kinds of baseball literature.


http://english.baseball-museum.or.jp/
   3. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 01:31 AM (#4626172)
Mr. Hirsch: Your choice of subtext for a badly misinformed attack against "stats nerds" brings you across as both petty and stupid.

God, is this what it was like when the radical notion that illnesses were caused by microorganisms and not evil spirits was slowly gaining traction over the caustic objections of the doctors of the day?
   4. tfbg9 Posted: December 30, 2013 at 01:34 AM (#4626175)
"suggest that hitters with high batting averages but limited power and modest propensity to draw bases on balls (such as HOFers Wade Boggs"



What?
   5. RobertMachemer Posted: December 30, 2013 at 01:34 AM (#4626176)
Wade Boggs had a modest propensity to bases on balls? Am I misunderstanding the author's meaning? Did Wade Boggs downplay this particular skill of his in general conversation or something?
   6. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 01:38 AM (#4626178)
Don't think about it, it'll only make you dumber.

Ichiro wasn't as good as Wade Boggs but you don't have to give him any extra credit for his time in Japan for him to be an adequately qualified Hall of Famer.
   7. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: December 30, 2013 at 01:42 AM (#4626180)
These statistics suggest that hitters with high batting averages but limited power and modest propensity to draw bases on balls (such as HOFers Wade Boggs,


Wait, what? Is this the same Boggs who lead the league in BB twice? Had over 100 BB in 4 consecutive seasons and retired with the gaudy .415 OBP? If anything Boggs was criminally underrated for most of his career.

For an article promoting the newfangled stats the writer fails to recognise one of the best examples to support his own article.

Bugger, cokes to 4 and 5....
   8. madvillain Posted: December 30, 2013 at 01:58 AM (#4626186)
I RTFA, it's incoherent. Wade Boggs had a career IsoD of .87 and once had 4 straight years of an OBP 45% or higher. If anything he's an example of a player highly rated by both BA and OBP.

edit: coke to everyone that posted while I was drinking some beer contemplating mine.
   9. valuearbitrageur Posted: December 30, 2013 at 02:15 AM (#4626188)
Ichiro has either 55/58 WAR in 12 seasons starting from the middle of his prime thru his decline. "Sabermetrics" loves Ichiro, and it's silly the author ignores defense and baserunning.

Ichiro is at least a borderline MLB HOF already. And if you think it's the Baseball HOF and not the MLB HOF, 4,000+ hits makes him a slam dunk. He was playing in NPB for 9 years before he came to Seattle, if he was allowed to come 3 years earlier he's likely over 70 WAR.
   10. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 30, 2013 at 02:39 AM (#4626191)
While waiting for the latest approval poll, I like to dunk my Pavement records in yummy, yummy mayonnaise while drafting improvements to MLB's divisions and playoff structure. From a fully reclined airline seat, of course.
   11. shoewizard Posted: December 30, 2013 at 02:57 AM (#4626193)
Sheldon Hirsch is the co-author of "The Beauty of Short Hops: How Chance and Circumstance Confound the Moneyball Approach to Baseball."


That is all.
   12. shoewizard Posted: December 30, 2013 at 03:06 AM (#4626195)
BTW, if we are going to credit guys years lost to war, or credit Negro League player for years they did not get to play in the majors, then I see no reason not to "Credit" Ichiro 20 WAR or so from age 22-26. Thats pretty conservative, and puts him right around 80 WAR anway.

Even if you don't want to Credit him with 20 WAR, all it takes is 14 WAR to vault him into the top 10 in WAR for RF.

I really know very few people that don't think Ichiro is a legit hall of famer. So nice strawman.
   13. PreservedFish Posted: December 30, 2013 at 03:50 AM (#4626198)
#10 - in which zip code?
   14. Jason Michael(s) Bourn Identity Crisis Posted: December 30, 2013 at 04:29 AM (#4626202)
Of course Ichiro is a deserving Hall of Famer. He's no inner-circle guy, but his sustained run of excellent all-around play in MLB is very impressive. If you give him any credit for NPB, then it's not even a question.
   15. Dale H. Posted: December 30, 2013 at 04:46 AM (#4626203)
He played during the steroid era. Coincidence? Maybe. But how can I ever be sure?
   16. Lars6788 Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:14 AM (#4626205)
He played during the steroid era. Coincidence? Maybe. But how can I ever be sure?


One will never know though it maybe harder to track down his Brian McNamee or Greg Anderson in the far east.
   17. vivaelpujols Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:53 AM (#4626207)
This is dumb. No one argues that Ichiro's performance isn't HOF worthy, the issue is that he hasn't played enough seasons to rack up a typical HOF resume so he's a special case.
   18. cardsfanboy Posted: December 30, 2013 at 08:47 AM (#4626219)
This is dumb. No one argues that Ichiro's performance isn't HOF worthy, the issue is that he hasn't played enough seasons to rack up a typical HOF resume so he's a special case.


Have you met Ray????? He specifically argues(with merit) that Ichiro's mlb career isn't hof worthy.
   19. John DiFool2 Posted: December 30, 2013 at 09:40 AM (#4626232)
I don't think #9 has, either. <dons flame retardant armor>
   20. kthejoker Posted: December 30, 2013 at 10:15 AM (#4626246)
I think Ray is arguing more along the lines of personall Hall, he's already stated at least on one occasion that Ichiro is a (kind of weak) HOFer by the standards of the actual Hall of Fame.
   21. kthejoker Posted: December 30, 2013 at 10:23 AM (#4626251)
Kirby Puckett: 7831 PA, .318/.360/.477/.837, 134 SB, 124 OPS+, 6 Gold Gloves, 3 top 3 MVP finishes, 6 top 10 MVP finishes
Ichiro Suzuki: 9278 PA, .319/.361/.414/.775, 472 SB, 111 OPS+, 10 Gold Gloves, 1 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP finishes

Kirby Puckett was a first-year (but not near-unanimous) Hall of Fame inductee, for pretty much the same reason Ichiro will be a first ballot inductee.




   22. AROM Posted: December 30, 2013 at 10:23 AM (#4626252)
I don't think it's that. Ray can speak for himself obviously, but from reading his posts I think it's more like He doesn't think that Ichiro is qualified, but the voters like him so much that he's going to get in anyway.
   23. Lars6788 Posted: December 30, 2013 at 10:34 AM (#4626259)
The did he play enough quality seasons argument is spot on and also the fact people are willing to add extra credit to his Japanese stats where there is nothing that says it is should be a criteria to give Ichiro more credit besides whatever he has been able to do in the U.S.
   24. Bug Selig Posted: December 30, 2013 at 10:35 AM (#4626260)
I'm glad somebody is finally stepping to the plate to stick up for slap hitters like Mike Trout.
   25. AROM Posted: December 30, 2013 at 10:47 AM (#4626270)
My take on Ichiro is this:

The MLEs from Japan show that from ages 20-26 he was the same player as he was during his prime with the Mariners. Had he been over here he would have hit around .330 per season, 200 hits, 40 steals, and great defense which probably gets him about 5 WAR per season.

From 27-39, he had 58.5 WAR, which is an elite total for that age range, in fact #14 alltime among outfielders. All of those ahead of him are in the HOF, except Bonds (yet) and Pete Rose. Of those below him, there are 11 players between 48 - 58.5 WAR. 5 are in the hall, 2 are not yet eligible (Manny, Sheffield), 1 is on the ballot (Walker), and 3 have been rejected - Jose Cruz, Kenny Lofton, and Bob Johnson.

Lofton is most similar, a player with a lot of his value coming from speed and defense. The difference is that Lofton drew more walks and hit fewer singles (his OBP is actually better than Ichiro's) so he doesn't have the 200 hit hook. He got a late start to his MLB career (starter at age 25) mostly due to an early focus on basketball.

Cruz just wasn't very good until age 27 or so, then gave the Astros a decade of high level play which was better than it looked because of the Astrodome. Just a late bloomer.

Indian Bob Johnson was a 27 year old rookie, a different kind of player in that his best skills were walks and power, but despite the late start put up 57 WAR. Johnson was in the PCL from ages 23-26. From the BBref bullpen, it looks like his late start (even in the minors) was just a case of him being a late bloomer, as he was playing semi-pro ball and took several tryouts before someone gave him a contract.

If you don't consider Ichiro's record in Japan, his HOF case looks a lot like these 3 late bloomers who became stars in their late 20's and remained so to their late 30's.
   26. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 30, 2013 at 11:11 AM (#4626280)
The challenge to Ichiro’s HOF credentials may seem absurd to his many fans but OPS is widely accepted as a valid statistic and wOBA just tweaks it. These statistics suggest that hitters with high batting averages but limited power and modest propensity to draw bases on balls (such as HOFers Wade Boggs,


That's as far as I got.
   27. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 30, 2013 at 11:13 AM (#4626281)
He played during the steroid era. Coincidence? Maybe. But how can I ever be sure?



He only used them during batting practice.
   28. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 30, 2013 at 11:20 AM (#4626283)
(such as HOFers Wade Boggs, Rod Carew, and Tony Gwynn, as well as Pete Rose)

umm err, let's see:
Who are 4 guys who made the HOM?

Who are 4 better hitters than Ichiro?
   29. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 30, 2013 at 11:25 AM (#4626286)
659.5

Is that with or without our EqA boy?
   30. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 11:26 AM (#4626287)
You guys talk like you're unfamiliar with Ray. Let me explain: He identifies the popular opinion on any subject and then vehemently and unwaveringly argues the opposite.
   31. cardsfanboy Posted: December 30, 2013 at 11:34 AM (#4626296)
You guys talk like you're unfamiliar with Ray. Let me explain: He identifies the popular opinion on any subject and then vehemently and unwaveringly argues the opposite.


Disagree. I think he looks at it through a robots eye and removes any and all subjective arguments on an opinion and argues that. (more specifically, he doesn't even fathom subjective arguments, and is completely incapable of seeing an argument from any point of view except his own myopic lens)
He agrees with the majority here on PED issues, he just takes it too far, same with post season play.

His entire Ichiro argument rests specifically on ignoring all evidence of Ichiro's play except what he did in the major leagues, including ignoring his age for those seasons.
   32. BDC Posted: December 30, 2013 at 11:39 AM (#4626300)
For better or worse, players who are exceptionally good at one aspect of the game are overrated by the MSM and general fandom. (Conversely, balanced players are underrated unless they're Willie Mays or somebody also exceptionally good at some of their skills.) This is not news to anybody here, and was noticed by Bill James and probably by John McGraw and Harry Wright.

And IMO it's for better. The HOF includes Maranville, Mazeroski, Aparicio, Smith, Robinson (IF defense); Clemente (RF arm); Ryan, Koufax (strikeouts); Gwynn, Carew (BA); Brock, Henderson (SB); and it's fixing to include Rivera (saves) and Ichiro (singles). Most of these guys – including Ichiro – have other credentials, even overly-ample other credentials, but they deserve some fraction of that surplus "overrating" for doing things that are at the outer limits of what one can do in the game. That's good! I'm not saying put Earl Webb in the Hall of Fame, but when someone demonstrates over and over and multiple times over that they are really great at an aspect of baseball, I love that as a HOF credential.
   33. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 30, 2013 at 11:40 AM (#4626301)
I know these arguments have been repeated ad nauseum, but I can't help myself: The problem with the anti-Ichiro argument is that you have to define your terms incredibly narrowly to keep him out. It's a form of special pleading.

Going by a traditional approach (gold gloves, MVP, batting average, hits), he's an easy call.

He's also quite famous and could be given a lot of credit for being a pioneer for Japanese position players.

From a purely saber perspective, he's a solid choice based on a 10 year prime averaging over 5 WAR per year and peak seasons over 9 and 7 WAR.

When you give him some credit for his time in Japan, when he quite clearly would have been an above average MLB player, he's an even easier choice.

To argue against his case, you have to (a) dismiss the traditional stats and fame/pioneer arguments, (b) give him no credit for his time in Japan and argue that he could have come to the US as a teenager if he'd really wanted to, (c) dismiss the stats argument by claiming that it overrates his fielding and baserunning, and (d) ignore the HOF's established track record when it comes to non-inner circle OFs. So the argument against him falls into a very narrow band that uses some advanced stats (mainly OPS+) but not others, refuses to take anything subjective into account, and ignores history.
   34. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 30, 2013 at 11:46 AM (#4626310)
Sheldon Hirsch is the co-author of "The Beauty of Short Hops: How Chance and Circumstance Confound the Moneyball Approach to Baseball."


That sounds like the title of the book that Billy Beane may actually have written, or maybe the director's cut of "Moneyball", in which the A's lose in the playoffs again.
   35. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 30, 2013 at 11:53 AM (#4626321)
You guys talk like you're unfamiliar with Ray. Let me explain: He identifies the popular opinion on any subject and then vehemently and unwaveringly argues the opposite.

Not exactly. Often there's no particular popular consensus on the subject, so he identifies the argument of whatever article is being posted, and then argues the opposite.
   36. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 12:18 PM (#4626343)
Kirby Puckett: 7831 PA, .318/.360/.477/.837, 134 SB, 124 OPS+, 6 Gold Gloves, 3 top 3 MVP finishes, 6 top 10 MVP finishes
Ichiro Suzuki: 9278 PA, .319/.361/.414/.775, 472 SB, 111 OPS+, 10 Gold Gloves, 1 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP finishes

Kirby Puckett was a first-year (but not near-unanimous) Hall of Fame inductee, for pretty much the same reason Ichiro will be a first ballot inductee.


Puckett is a weak HOFer, and I think comparing a CF to a corner OF is wholly invalid.
   37. AROM Posted: December 30, 2013 at 12:20 PM (#4626345)
From a purely saber perspective, he's a solid choice based on a 10 year prime averaging over 5 WAR per year and peak seasons over 9 and 7 WAR.


A solid choice, yes, but not an overwhelming one. Kenny Lofton has the same case (especially prorating his 7.2 WAR in 112 games for 1994). Lofton is generally well regarded around here, but more than 95% of the voters did not find his case convincing.

Ichiro is a SABR-defensible choice on the basis of MLB performance, but he really needs Japan credit to be a slam dunk.
   38. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 12:24 PM (#4626347)
Lofton is most similar, a player with a lot of his value coming from speed and defense. The difference is that Lofton drew more walks and hit fewer singles (his OBP is actually better than Ichiro's) so he doesn't have the 200 hit hook. He got a late start to his MLB career (starter at age 25) mostly due to an early focus on basketball.


The difference is that Lofton is a CF.
   39. Baldrick Posted: December 30, 2013 at 12:28 PM (#4626349)
A solid choice, yes, but not an overwhelming one. Kenny Lofton has the same case (especially prorating his 7.2 WAR in 112 games for 1994). Lofton is generally well regarded around here, but more than 95% of the voters did not find his case convincing.

I don't understand the point of this argument.

There are two questions: will he make it, should he make it? We don't need the Lofton comparison to evaluate whether he WILL make it, because there are about 15 reasons why Ichiro will get in when Lofton didn't. That is pretty obvious.

The Lofton comparison is only helpful for evaluating whether he should make it. In which case: it's not relevant that Lofton only got 3% of the vote or whatever.
   40. AROM Posted: December 30, 2013 at 12:32 PM (#4626353)
Puckett is a weak HOFer, and I think comparing a CF to a corner OF is wholly invalid.


On A, I agree. On part B, that is putting way to much emphasis on positions which are pretty similar, instead of looking at player skills. Ichiro did play a season and a half in center, and was fine there. His skills compare favorably to Lofton, position be damned.

The debate on Barry Bonds is centered around another subject, but if you were comparing the greats of all time I think he and Mickey Mantle are great comps for each other. Position should not be an obstacle because it's an easy thing to adjust for. Barry came up as a center fielder and was +8 his first year, then +6 in 46 games his second year. He moved to left and was great at that position for about a decade. Mantle stayed in center, but all the fielding metrics I've seen don't suggest he was great out there, some have him well below average. Bonds and Mantle were very similar in value up to their mid 30s, both on offense and defense. Then Mickey broke down and Bonds transformed into Teddy Babe Williams-Ruth.
   41. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 12:34 PM (#4626356)
My view on Ichiro is that he would be a very weak HOFer at best, and I don't support very weak HOFers. He's HOVG.

I also think giving him NPB credit is flat absurd, and not a serious part of any argument.

Nor is the obsession over his raw hits totals, or batting average, serious. This is not 1985.

I will say this, which is something I mentioned to JE when I had lunch with him a few weeks ago: I have probably not given enough credit to Ichiro's value stemming from his defense and baserunning skills in these arguments over the years. Though I still don't see that getting him up to a level where I could support him for the HOF.

He needed more good years, and instead he's crashed and burned.

Cardsfanboy is right about one thing: I consider the HOF as purely an objective inquiry and don't give credence to subjective arguments nor do I see them as at all valid, as a general rule. I've given war credit and NeL credit. Ichiro is not Josh Gibson, and it's a flat insult to Gibson and all the other NeL players to claim otherwise. Nor was Ichiro flying combat missions or stationed in a war. Instead he was simply... born in Japan. That is entirely unremarkable.

I give no "pioneer" credit for him. He could have come here sooner... if he had wanted to. He was, I think, the first NBP hitter who showed he could succeed here, but I don't give HOF credit for that.

kthejoker is wrong: I don't think Ichiro is qualified by the standards of the actual HOF, not any personal HOF.

But yes, Ichiro will sail into the HOF, as I've said many times.
   42. alilisd Posted: December 30, 2013 at 12:45 PM (#4626378)
Is this the same Boggs who lead the league in BB twice? Had over 100 BB in 4 consecutive seasons and retired with the gaudy .415 OBP?


No, it's the other Boggs; the one who ate pork chops and apple sauce every day before a game. :-)
   43. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 30, 2013 at 12:48 PM (#4626381)
I think Lofton should be in too. If he'd stayed with the Indians for his whole career he'd probably have gotten in easily.
   44. bjhanke Posted: December 30, 2013 at 12:51 PM (#4626385)
I do think that Ichiro's HoF claim depends on giving MLEs for the Japanese Major Leagues but, because he was a star in the Japanese Majors, he should get MLE credit for it. However, not only were Wade Boggs walking skills anything but "modest", neither were Rose's. So 50% of the author's list of comps are wrong. - Brock Hanke
   45. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 12:51 PM (#4626386)
I think Lofton should be in too. If he'd stayed with the Indians for his whole career he'd probably have gotten in easily.


Eh. A better candidate than Ichiro but -- and this really confuses people on BBTF -- being underrated is not in itself a HOF argument. Durability is a major problem for Lofton's case.
   46. kthejoker Posted: December 30, 2013 at 12:59 PM (#4626398)
kthejoker is wrong: I don't think Ichiro is qualified by the standards of the actual HOF, not any personal HOF.

But yes, Ichiro will sail into the HOF


So you mean he isn't qualified by the purely objective statistical standards. Obviously you think he has met whatever nebulous "Fame" standard is used for actually putting people in the Hall of Fame. Which is something you've said before, and what I was referring to.
   47. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 01:11 PM (#4626406)
So you mean he isn't qualified by the purely objective statistical standards. Obviously you think he has met whatever nebulous "Fame" standard is used for actually putting people in the Hall of Fame. Which is something you've said before, and what I was referring to.


No, I think the voters -- before they turned the HOF into a joke via the steroids mess -- were trying to induct/analyze players based on value. They didn't always get it right -- they focused on things like wins and batting average too much -- but that's what they were trying to do. When they failed, it was mostly because they didn't realize that the stats they were using didn't do a good enough job of representing value.

So they will induct Ichiro, because they don't understand -- as, remarkably, many people on this site seem to forget when discussing Ichiro -- that raw hits totals and batting average are not value.

People get crazed when a player does something like churn out eye popping hits totals, and they can't think clearly enough to see that it matters that the player doesn't walk or hit home runs.
   48. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 02:24 PM (#4626496)
I also think giving him NPB credit is flat absurd, and not a serious part of any argument.


This is my <sarcasm>favorite</sarcasm> part.
   49. AROM Posted: December 30, 2013 at 03:01 PM (#4626523)
Eh. A better candidate than Ichiro but -- and this really confuses people on BBTF -- being underrated is not in itself a HOF argument. Durability is a major problem for Lofton's case.


I suppose there really could be people who think Lofton is a HOFer only because he's been underrated. More likely Ray is making stuff up.
   50. eddieot Posted: December 30, 2013 at 03:38 PM (#4626549)
So according to Ray, if Ichiro had 30 less hits a year but 30 more walks a year he'd be a better player?
   51. SteveM. Posted: December 30, 2013 at 03:55 PM (#4626569)

So they will induct Ichiro, because they don't understand -- as, remarkably, many people on this site seem to forget when discussing Ichiro -- that raw hits totals and batting average are not value.


So 200 hits has no value?
   52. AROM Posted: December 30, 2013 at 04:01 PM (#4626574)
So 200 hits has no value?


Not in a void. A batter going 200 for 1000 is pretty bad. What kind of hits? How many walks, how many outs, what's the offensive level of the league?
   53. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 30, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4626587)
Not in a void. A batter going 200 for 1000 is pretty bad. What kind of hits? How many walks, how many outs, what's the offensive level of the league?

But there's almost no context in MLB history in which getting 200 hits in a season doesn't have a ton of value. Even Juan Pierre was a decent player in his 200 hit seasons, and he's got to be at the far end of the value scale.
   54. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 30, 2013 at 04:42 PM (#4626616)
To Yeaarrgh's point: in 2006 Juan Pierre had a league-leading 204 hits. He also led the league in outs made and times caught stealing, with an 82 OPS+. That's got to be near rock-bottom for a 200+ hit season, and Pierre put up 2.0 WAR (the low-end of starter-quality).
   55. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 04:44 PM (#4626620)
So according to Ray, if Ichiro had 30 less hits a year but 30 more walks a year he'd be a better player?


---

So 200 hits has no value?


So if I make up something silly and pretend Ray said it, I get some debating points?
   56. AROM Posted: December 30, 2013 at 04:46 PM (#4626622)
In the old PCL (190+ games per year) I'm sure there were a few awful 200 hit seasons. Each hit has value, so certainly 200 hits has some value. But how valuable is the player? You need context.
   57. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 30, 2013 at 04:56 PM (#4626632)
But there's almost no context in MLB history in which getting 200 hits in a season doesn't have a ton of value.


There's almost no context in MLB history in which getting 100 RBI in a season doesn't have a ton of value either, and yet we've seen Joe Carter in 1997, Tony Batista in 2004

With regard to 200 hits, Juan Pierre managed an OPS+ of 82 one of his 200 hit seasons, Doc Cramer hit for an 84 in 1940, Taylor Douthit (great name) posted an 87 in 1930...

Of course to be fair, none of Ichiro's 200 hit seasons was that empty, but his 200 hit seasons tended to be a bit OPS light compared to most other 200 hit seasons- there have been 522 200 hit seasons in MLB history, the median OPS +in a 200 hit season is 137. Ichiro's career high is 130, Rose matched or tied that in 6 of his 200 hits seasons, Jeter twice, Gehringer 6 times, Cobb 8 times, Waner 7 times, Hornsby 7 times, Boggs 6 times, Garvey 5 times,

Unless you count Pierre (200 hits 4 times) the only frequent 200 hit/season guy he bests is Michael Young (whose top season by ops+ still tops Ichiro's)


   58. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 30, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4626635)
So if I make up something silly and pretend Ray said it, I get some debating points?


No that'd be silly, because if you made up something silly, you couldn't pretend that Ray said it. You get to make up silly stuff and pretend that Kevin and Andy said it
   59. PreservedFish Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:05 PM (#4626638)
I never get why people mischaracterize Ray's arguments so badly in these threads. What he argues is always sound, virtually orthodox stathead logic. I support Ichiro for the hall because I am a sentimental type. But if you are just looking at his American statistics objectively, I don't see anything wrong with Ray's conclusions.
   60. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:13 PM (#4626649)
There's almost no context in MLB history in which getting 100 RBI in a season doesn't have a ton of value either, and yet we've seen Joe Carter in 1997, Tony Batista in 2004

With regard to 200 hits, Juan Pierre managed an OPS+ of 82 one of his 200 hit seasons, Doc Cramer hit for an 84 in 1940, Taylor Douthit (great name) posted an 87 in 1930...

Of course to be fair, none of Ichiro's 200 hit seasons was that empty, but his 200 hit seasons tended to be a bit OPS light compared to most other 200 hit seasons- there have been 522 200 hit seasons in MLB history, the median OPS +in a 200 hit season is 137. Ichiro's career high is 130, Rose matched or tied that in 6 of his 200 hits seasons, Jeter twice, Gehringer 6 times, Cobb 8 times, Waner 7 times, Hornsby 7 times, Boggs 6 times, Garvey 5 times,


I don't follow. I don't think anyone is saying that Ichiro should get into the HOF simply because he got 200 hits a bunch of times.
   61. alilisd Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:24 PM (#4626661)
So according to Ray, if Ichiro had 30 less hits a year but 30 more walks a year he'd be a better player?


No, more like if he had 30 more extra base hits instead of 30 singles he'd be a better player, which he would, and that by not having those extra base hits, he's not as good a candidate as other RF/Corner OF are/were. Apologies to Ray if I'm mischaracterizing his position.
   62. PreservedFish Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:26 PM (#4626664)
I don't think anyone is saying that Ichiro should get into the HOF simply because he got 200 hits a bunch of times.

I can admit to this, almost. I believe that the unique and entertaining way that Ichiro achieved his value gives him a bonus. Bobby Abreu has about the same WAR ... pretending that they are equivalent candidates, for the moment, I would be happy to let the high averages and hits record boost Ichiro above Abreu.

I would do the same for other unique talents such as Boggs and Ozzie.
   63. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:33 PM (#4626680)
I don't think anyone is saying that Ichiro should get into the HOF simply because he got 200 hits a bunch of times.


I think Andy would readily admit to this (or something close to it, like consecutive 200-hit seasons), as would Srul and plenty of others here.

And most HOF voters.
   64. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:34 PM (#4626685)

I would do the same for other unique talents such as Boggs and Ozzie.


Yea but Boggs value is tangibly backed up more then Ozzie/Ichiro.
   65. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:40 PM (#4626690)
Since Ichiro maxed out on his defense and baserunning the only reasonable path to making him a better corner OF was to increase his actual batting. Since he was at about maximum batting average level he needed to have more of those hits go for extra bases, or needed to draw more walks. He did neither.

Really, an average of 25 2B, 7 3B, 9 HR, and 43 BB per 162 games is pathetic for a HOF corner OF in the 2000s era of offense -- and that's WITH maxing out on PAs since he batted at the top of the lineup. Yes, he had other skills of value (batting average, baserunning, defense, base stealing, durability), but we're talking about what he could reasonably have done to make himself a HOF player. Improving on the 2B and/or HR and/or BB was the only reasonable path since he had maxed out at everything else. As it is, factoring everything in, he falls short, in my opinion.
   66. valuearbitrageur Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:41 PM (#4626693)
I've given war credit and NeL credit. Ichiro is not Josh Gibson, and it's a flat insult to Gibson and all the other NeL players to claim otherwise. Nor was Ichiro flying combat missions or stationed in a war. Instead he was simply... born in Japan. That is entirely unremarkable.


So playing exhibition games and shooting promotional films far from action behind the lines is good for "war time credit". Negro Leagurers weren't allowed to play in MLB, so credit there.

But Ichiro wasn't allowed to play in US until he was 27, and not a smidge of credit?

Objectively the common logic of your exceptions is the players were not allowed to play inthe MLB for good reason. Ichiros legal inability to play in the US isn't a good reason, because ?????

Feel free to insert "damn foreigners/slant eyes/immigrants stealing our jobs" comment if that' best reflects your objective reasoning.


   67. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:45 PM (#4626695)
I never get why people mischaracterize Ray's arguments so badly in these threads. What he argues is always sound, virtually orthodox stathead logic. I support Ichiro for the hall because I am a sentimental type. But if you are just looking at his American statistics objectively, I don't see anything wrong with Ray's conclusions.


It's not the conclusions that are a problem, it's the disingenuous way in which he dismisses sound arguments that fly in the face of his conclusions. If he wants a smaller hall than some, or if he doesn't believe in considering extra-MLB play in his evaluations, that's fine, but he won't agree to disagree on these matters. He insists not just that he's right, but that he's the only logician among us.
   68. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:45 PM (#4626696)
Ray believes that Ichiro should not be in the HoF because we don't give no credit for furriner baseball, thankyouverymuch. If he were a *real* man, he'd have come to America and played in the majors when he was 17, not hid in some rice paddy. (Sure, this logic is idiotic and vaguely racist, but Ray is sticking to it, God bless him.)

And, yeah, he has 59 WAR, an MVP, a ROY, 10 ASGs, and 10 gold gloves, but they don't really count either, since he...played in Seattle. And got a bunch of base hits. Or something.
   69. John DiFool2 Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:47 PM (#4626697)
Cardsfanboy is right about one thing: I consider the HOF as purely an objective inquiry and don't give credence to subjective arguments nor do I see them as at all valid, as a general rule. I've given war credit and NeL credit. Ichiro is not Josh Gibson, and it's a flat insult to Gibson and all the other NeL players to claim otherwise.


There aren't enough eyerolls for that. [Racheting it down a notch...] Not really picking on Ray specifically, but I am of the philosophical position that a purely objective position is impossible, be in the narrow context of this discussion, or elsewhere. If you dig deep enough, bias and subjectivity you will indeed find-it is unavoidable*. And then in this case his bias is out in plain view for all to see; the first sentence is a prime exemplar of a purely subjective position. Yes, I have my own set of biases, one of which is I am more than willing to bend over backward to be fair to a candidate when evaluating him, and not brush inconvenient facts under the rug when it is contrary to my predetermined bias.

[*I've tried to engage some fundamentalist Christians on similar grounds, but have typically gotten nowhere.]
   70. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:48 PM (#4626698)
Feel free to insert "damn foreigners/slant eyes/immigrants stealing our jobs" comment if that' best reflects your objective reasoning.


Troll.
   71. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:50 PM (#4626703)
Ray believes that Ichiro should not be in the HoF because we don't give no credit for furriner baseball, thankyouverymuch. If he were a *real* man, he'd have come to America and played in the majors when he was 17, not hid in some rice paddy. (Sure, this logic is idiotic and vaguely racist, but Ray is sticking to it, God bless him.)


Troll. I don't count college ball or the US minors or the independent leagues or any league in any country that is not MLB other than the Negro Leagues.
   72. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:54 PM (#4626708)
It's not the conclusions that are a problem, it's the disingenuous way in which he dismisses sound arguments that fly in the face of his conclusions. If he wants a smaller hall than some, or if he doesn't believe in considering extra-MLB play in his evaluations, that's fine, but he won't agree to disagree on these matters. He insists not just that he's right, but that he's the only logician among us.


And he uses clever comebacks, like "Troll!"

When Ray uses the Internet, Jesus cries.
   73. PreservedFish Posted: December 30, 2013 at 06:02 PM (#4626722)
How were those not troll arguments? He was accused of being racist.
   74. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 30, 2013 at 06:03 PM (#4626723)
WTF, where are all these racist innuendos coming from? Sounds like they're being invented out of whole cloth and ascribed to a guy who's pov about player X you disagree with.
   75. AROM Posted: December 30, 2013 at 06:13 PM (#4626730)
And he uses clever comebacks, like "Troll!"


Which is appropriate given what he was responding to. If you don't like it, then don't post in Trollish.
   76. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 06:21 PM (#4626737)
Feels like this racist-baiting is spilling over from the politics thread. There's no need (or justification) to drag "anti-furriner" accusations into this--Ray's immovable position is silly enough without them.
   77. Tippecanoe Posted: December 30, 2013 at 06:23 PM (#4626738)
Ichiro is not Josh Gibson, and it's a flat insult to Gibson and all the other NeL players to claim otherwise.



The NeL players were elected not as some sort of compensation for past injustices, but because they were among the greatest players of all time, based on the best evidence we have.

So we should absolutely look at Ichiro's record in Japan. The question is not "how much major league WAR did he accrue?", it's "How good was this guy?"
   78. PreservedFish Posted: December 30, 2013 at 06:34 PM (#4626747)
By the way, has anyone ever scrutinized the mission statement of the HOF, or any of the other official literature, to see if non-MLB quality ought to be considered? The voting criteria neither endorse nor prohibit the consideration of non-MLB play. The idea that such play is entirely irrelevant is the bedrock upon which Ray's arguments are founded.
   79. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 06:35 PM (#4626748)
The NeL players were elected not as some sort of compensation for past injustices, but because they were among the greatest players of all time, based on the best evidence we have.


...who would have played in the majors but for past injustices.

No such injustices are present with Ichiro. If they were, the HOF would have appointed a committee to identify and elect the NPB players who were among the greatest players of all time. Such as Sadaharu Oh.

So we should absolutely look at Ichiro's record in Japan. The question is not "how much major league WAR did he accrue?", it's "How good was this guy?"


Plainly false, or the HOF would have appointed a committee to fan out and identify and elect the greatest players in the world no matter what league they had played in -- Japan, Mexico, collegiate, minors, etc.

The HOF has the 10-year MLB requirement. As long as they do, I will only consider MLB play as relevant barring extreme circumstances such as segregation.
   80. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 06:39 PM (#4626750)
How were those not troll arguments? He was accused of being racist.

Concur. Weak sauce guys.
   81. Tippecanoe Posted: December 30, 2013 at 06:42 PM (#4626752)
No such injustices are present with Ichiro. If they were, the HOF would have appointed a committee to identify and elect the NPB players who were among the greatest players of all time. Such as Sadaharu Oh.


We'd need one for Oh, but we don't need a committee for Ichiro. We have a ten-year Robin-Yount-level prime. We know he was as good as a mid-tier HoF player.
   82. PreservedFish Posted: December 30, 2013 at 06:50 PM (#4626755)
The plaques and HOF biographies of many Negro League inductees will prominently mention their involvement in winter league baseball in Cuba and elsewhere. For example, from Willard Brown's plaque: "Two-time triple crown winner in Puerto Rican League." That's not proof that the committee was instructed to consider his international winter league play, but it's certainly a suggestion of it.
   83. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 06:52 PM (#4626757)
By the way, has anyone ever scrutinized the mission statement of the HOF, or any of the other official literature, to see if non-MLB quality ought to be considered? The voting criteria neither endorse nor prohibit the consideration of non-MLB play. The idea that such play is entirely irrelevant is the bedrock upon which Ray's arguments are founded.


I've looked. Everything they've posted is based on the premise that they are only concerned with MLB play. That's the only way it makes sense. The only candidates that are eligible are those who have played 10 years in the majors. They appointed a committee to look at the Negro Leagues players; no committee was appointed to look at and induct any other players.

3. Eligible Candidates -- Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.

B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).


If their goal was to elect the best players in the world regardless of where they played, as alleged by Tippecanoe, they would not have the 10 year MLB requirement, which simply frustrates that purpose.

Nothing I have seen states "We want to consider non-MLB play." When they wanted to do that - the Negro Leagues - they specifically set up a committee for it.
   84. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 06:56 PM (#4626760)
The plaques and HOF biographies of many Negro League inductees will prominently mention their involvement in winter league baseball in Cuba and elsewhere. For example, from Willard Brown's plaque: "Two-time triple crown winner in Puerto Rican League." That's not proof that the committee was instructed to consider his international winter league play, but it's certainly a suggestion of it.


That's accolades on a plaque. There is zero indication that non-MLB play is relevant to the actual induction process. Again, the 10 year rule is a huge problem for that.

Wade Boggs's plaque says "Legendary for his superstitions." Was that relevant to his HOF case?

Look, the HOF is free to say "Ichiro's NBP play is relevant" - at which point I'll be happy to consider it. I don't have a problem with the methodology of his MLEs. And his skill set (value in Japan not based on home runs) is one that translates particularly nicely. I think if one considers NPB play as relevant than he'd be in.
   85. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 07:08 PM (#4626765)
Hurrah. The mountain has moved an inch toward Mohammed.

Plainly false, or the HOF would have appointed a committee to fan out and identify and elect the greatest players in the world no matter what league they had played in -- Japan, Mexico, collegiate, minors, etc.


So because the HOF hasn't, that means they (and we) shouldn't? Until Ichiro, there wasn't much indication that (at least a few of) the greatest players in the world weren't playing in the US. There was a time, you realize, when people said there was no point in considering Negro Leaguers. Eventually, though, people changed their minds. We're just in the forefront of a pro-international movement. You can be in the rear guard, but you don't need to pretend that the ones in front are crazy.
   86. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 30, 2013 at 07:14 PM (#4626769)
Wade Boggs's plaque says "Legendary for his superstitions." Was that relevant to his HOF case?


and no mention of Margo Adams...
   87. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 07:15 PM (#4626771)
So because the HOF hasn't, that means they (and we) shouldn't? Until Ichiro, there wasn't much indication that (at least a few of) the greatest players in the world weren't playing in the US.


Oh was busy hitting 868 home runs and the HOF never moved to consider him.

There was a time, you realize, when people said there was no point in considering Negro Leaguers. Eventually, though, people changed their minds. We're just in the forefront of a pro-international movement. You can be in the rear guard, but you don't need to pretend that the ones in front are crazy.


You're admitting that you're out in front of the Hall of Fame on this? That seems to validate my entire point.
   88. bobm Posted: December 30, 2013 at 07:27 PM (#4626779)
Objectively the common logic of your exceptions is the players were not allowed to play inthe MLB for good reason. Ichiros legal inability to play in the US isn't a good reason, because ????? 

Because he was not legally unable. See Hideo Nomo, Hideki Irabu and Alfonso Soriano.
   89. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: December 30, 2013 at 07:31 PM (#4626782)
The argument for considering war, NeL, or NPB credit is not to give someone a bonus. It's, as Bill James put it, to consider WHO a player was. You don't say, "If so and so would have been healthy" because he wasn't healthy. But Ichiro has a big zero in his career up till his age 27 season. Is there any way to see if he was a late bloomer or already a great player? Sure enough! There is! He was the best player in Japan and MLE's suggest he was roughly as good. That's the whole point of NPB credit. It IS an objective way to answer an unknown question: to wit, how good was Ichiro before he played MLBaseball
   90. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 08:18 PM (#4626810)
You're admitting that you're out in front of the Hall of Fame on this? That seems to validate my entire point.


If your point was to say that you aren't personally interested in anything a given player might have done outside his MLB years, maybe. But your main point seems to be that anyone who disagrees with you is some kind of knuckle-dragger. It's perfectly reasonable to to take a holistic look at a player's career when trying to determine how good he really was, and whether you do or you don't is a matter of preference.
   91. zenbitz Posted: December 30, 2013 at 08:44 PM (#4626827)
It's weird. Ray is like 90% wrong on politics and the NFL, BUT 90% correct on Steroids, Ichiro, and other HOF issues. I think he's overly conservative on defensive stats, though.
   92. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 09:00 PM (#4626835)
I also think giving him NPB credit is flat absurd


Yes, we all know that you're very stupid.
   93. tfbg9 Posted: December 30, 2013 at 09:06 PM (#4626840)
Accusing Ray of racism here is massively dooshy.

He was the best player in Japan


Was he? Goes off to check...
   94. tfbg9 Posted: December 30, 2013 at 09:23 PM (#4626848)
He might've been the best. He led in total bases a couple of times. Did he play CF over there?
   95. vivaelpujols Posted: December 30, 2013 at 09:31 PM (#4626851)
What's Ichiro's WAA compared to the average HOFer? Seems like there's a decent chance he makes it without considering NBP player because his career is mostly peak.
   96. vivaelpujols Posted: December 30, 2013 at 09:33 PM (#4626852)
By WAR Ichiro's up there with Edmonds, Helton, Abreu, Guerrero and other guys who I'd consider borderline. I don't see him as an especially weak case.

Edit: also, Chase Utley.
   97. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: December 30, 2013 at 09:33 PM (#4626853)
He played a little CF, but not much.

EDIT: to clarify what the hell I was talking about.
   98. bobm Posted: December 30, 2013 at 10:08 PM (#4626872)
To Yeaarrgh's point: in 2006 Juan Pierre had a league-leading 204 hits. He also led the league in outs made and times caught stealing, with an 82 OPS+. That's got to be near rock-bottom for a 200+ hit season, and Pierre put up 2.0 WAR (the low-end of starter-quality).

For single seasons, From 1901 to 2013, (requiring H>=200), sorted by smallest WAR Position Players

                                                                                     
Rk              Player WAR/pos   H Year Age  Tm Lg   G  PA   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS    Pos
1           Doc Cramer    -0.5 200 1940  34 BOS AL 150 712 .303 .340 .384 .724 *897/H
2           Matty Alou    -0.4 201 1970  31 PIT NL 155 718 .297 .329 .356 .685  *8/H9
3        George Sisler     0.3 205 1929  36 BSN NL 154 686 .326 .363 .424 .788     *3
4           Ralph Garr     0.4 200 1973  27 ATL NL 148 698 .299 .323 .415 .737    *97
5      Willie Montanez     0.6 206 1976  28 TOT NL 163 691 .317 .352 .418 .771   *3/H
6         Rip Radcliff     0.9 207 1936  30 CHW AL 138 664 .335 .381 .447 .828   *7/H
7       Taylor Douthit     0.9 201 1930  29 STL NL 154 748 .303 .364 .426 .790     *8
8       Dante Bichette     1.0 219 1998  34 COL NL 161 695 .331 .357 .509 .866 *79/HD
9         Chick Fullis     1.0 200 1933  32 PHI NL 151 698 .309 .350 .380 .731   *8/5
10     Fresco Thompson     1.1 202 1929  27 PHI NL 148 717 .324 .398 .419 .817     *4
11        Bill Buckner     1.5 201 1985  35 BOS AL 162 719 .299 .325 .447 .773     *3
12       Bob Dillinger     1.6 207 1948  29 SLB AL 153 722 .321 .385 .415 .799   *5/H
13        Woody Jensen     1.7 203 1935  27 PIT NL 143 657 .324 .344 .429 .773  *7/H9
14           Lou Brock     1.8 202 1970  31 STL NL 155 729 .304 .361 .422 .783  *7/H9
15        Harvey Kuenn     1.8 209 1953  22 DET AL 155 731 .308 .356 .386 .742     *6
16       Michael Young     1.9 216 2004  27 TEX AL 160 739 .313 .353 .483 .836   *6/D
17       George Sisler     1.9 201 1927  34 SLB AL 149 662 .327 .357 .430 .787     *3
18         Juan Pierre     2.0 204 2006  28 CHC NL 162 750 .292 .330 .388 .717     *8
19       Pinky Whitney     2.0 207 1930  25 PHI NL 149 660 .342 .383 .465 .849   *5/H
20          Jack Tobin     2.1 202 1923  31 SLB AL 151 696 .317 .363 .476 .839     *9
21         Derek Jeter     2.2 216 2012  38 NYY AL 159 740 .316 .362 .429 .791    *6D
22          Joe Vosmik     2.2 201 1938  28 BOS AL 146 690 .324 .384 .446 .830   *7/8
23         Lloyd Waner     2.2 221 1928  22 PIT NL 152 719 .335 .377 .434 .811    *87
24       Michael Young     2.3 213 2011  34 TEX AL 159 689 .338 .380 .474 .854 D534/6
25   Mark Grudzielanek     2.4 201 1996  26 MON NL 153 696 .306 .340 .397 .737     *6
Rk              Player WAR/pos   H Year Age  Tm Lg   G  PA   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS    Pos
26          Doc Cramer     2.4 214 1935  29 PHA AL 149 701 .332 .373 .416 .789     *8
27          Milt Stock     2.4 202 1925  31 BRO NL 146 662 .328 .368 .408 .776   *4/5
28          Bill Lamar     2.4 202 1925  28 PHA AL 138 606 .356 .379 .468 .847   *7/H
29          Tony Gwynn     2.5 203 1989  29 SDP NL 158 679 .336 .389 .424 .813    *89
30          Doc Cramer     2.5 202 1934  28 PHA AL 152 699 .311 .353 .411 .765   *8/H


   99. tfbg9 Posted: December 30, 2013 at 10:53 PM (#4626896)
That's an awesome list.
   100. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 30, 2013 at 11:05 PM (#4626898)
Poor Dante Bichette, guy almost wins the Triple Crown in 1995 and all he gets to show for it is a 1.2 WAR.
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