I gotta say, this is one fine piece of writing by Sherman.

And maybe, as protection for the Jurassic Orlando Hernandez, the Mets could sign Roger Clemens. They once drafted him in the 12th round. That was 1981 - or the year Hernandez turned 30.

Excellent.

I am not really overly concerned with the Mets' age. They have some older bench players but the only guys older than 32 in the evryday lineup are Delgado and Alou. Their bench is a little older but that's not really a concern to me.

The rotation has three guys under 30 in it.

The Mets need to be healthy but that's just like any team in baseball.

I'm sorry, but this article is proof that even though stupidity is never in short supply in this world, we can always count on the New York Post to deliver an extra-large helping of it. By trading for Johan Santana, the Mets went all-in, and presumably are a win-now team. The problem is, they might not win now. The Phillies have had the best offense in the NL for the last 2 years and have an excellent chance of repeating this distinction, or at least outslugging the rest of the division. They are returning Brett Myers to the rotation, which should give their starting pitching a boost. The Mets have a catcher whose alleged defensive prowess will not offset his overall suckitude at the plate, a big question mark at second base, and little depth in the outfield (the prospect of losing Moises Alou AND Ryan Church for any significant time doesn't bode well). In the meantime, Barry Bonds is available, has been relatively healthy since the knee surgery, and is coming off of probably the most successful season for a position player over 42 - and this fool says the Mets should not sign him, and hopes that his readers don't remember that he said this if the Mets miss the playoffs by 1 or 2 games, and Bonds would have given them 3-4 wins. If you've already resigned yourself to the fact that you're essentially going all out to win this year, and Bonds is available as long as you are willing (1) to pay his salary and (2) assume the risk that he might go to jail midseason, why wouldn't you sign Bonds? You could raise the character issue, but we all know this is a franchise that has employed many reprobates in the past, and for what it's worth, a randomly selected Congressperson is probably more worthy of jail time than Bonds. [I don't want to name names, but it is interesting that while Clemens may or may not have committed perjury in testifying before Congress, we know that Waxman essentially lied when he said that Clemens insisted on testifying.]

Seriously, saying Ryan "I said, like, Jewish people, they don't believe in Jesus. Does that mean they're doomed? I was like, man, if they only knew. Other religions don't know any better. It's up to us to spread the word. " Church is acceptable but Bonds is not is cutting the moral line too thin.

And this isn't about Bonds previously using steroids because the Mets had no problem signing Mota right after his 50 game suspension.

Why, two things:

1) Church's views about religion are probably a lot more commonplace in a big league clubhouse than we probably think. Not too many people say it, but Church's conservative Christian beliefs are probably held by more than one person. Church apologized and not too many people are going to hold it against him if he plays well. It's not really that big a deal.

2) Bonds is a lot bigger deal than Mota and Church. Bonds has arguably been the biggest story in baseball since 2001. Who knows about Mota and Church other than pretty hardcore baseball fans?

The Phils didn't have the best offense in baseball in 2006 when ballpark effects are considered. In addition, they have four places on the field where they are likely to get average or below average offense (3b, C, CF, RF). Adam Eaton is probably going to be their 5th start. Jamie Moyer is 45 years old and had a 92 ERA+ last season. Kyle Kendrick is their 3rd starter and his k/9 is pretty awful. He was good last year but I think his ERA is closer to 5.00 than it is 4.00 next season.

Sure, the Mets have problems but it's not like the teams in their divison don't.

Speaking away from a fan's perspective, by the numbers, Bonds very well might be the answer to what ails the Mets. The problem is, the cure will be worse than the disease.

Leaving aside steroids (haha, in a Bonds thread) and the media backlash, there is a point in Sherman's article, although he only devoted a phrase to it, "very likely will not respect the manager". Willie had problems with Milledge, a kid all of 21 years old showing really only a bit of flash and self-confidence. He had such trouble that the team got rid of him for 20 cents on the dollar. How the hell is Willie going to co-exist with freaking Barry Bonds, to say nothing of clubhouse red asses like Wagner?

Of course you can get rid of Willie. But it's not going to happen four weeks before opening day, not when they didn't get rid of him after last year. Bonds is going to be a one year move and its not going to work for the 2008 Mets with Willie as manager.

And this isn't about Bonds previously using steroids because the Mets had no problem signing Mota right after his 50 game suspension.

Just because Omar committed one mistake before doesn't mean he has to committ another one now.

I say sign Bonds now.

I don't care one way or the other, but the Mets have already said (yesterday) that they had no interest in Bonds. OTOH maybe they'll read some of these suggestions here and change their minds.

I can't wait for the day when they hand out league pennants based upon ballpark effects.

They already did that with the Astros in the '80s, didn't they? Load up on flyball pitchers, and trust the Astrodome to do the rest.

looks like they are doing it Philly too.

Geoff Jenkins and Pedro Feliz will be household names on the east coast come october.

Total ######## that Bonds will certainly not respect Willie Randolph. I would think that Randolph is one of the few managers that Bonds would actually respect (or respect as much as he would anyone) because:

1) Randolph is a former major league star;
2) Randolph played the game relatively recently;
3) Randolph understands what it's like to play in a big city with lots of highly critical media;
4) Randolph readily accepts that Bonds is the vastly superior player to him (Alou believing that he belonged next Mays and Bonds among great Giant outfielders was the real reason why Bonds and he clashed, IMHO);
5) Randolph probably won't bad-mouth Bonds to the press (especially regarding Bonds' availability); and
5) Randolph is black (not saying that Bonds is a racist, but he'll respond better to a black manager than a white or Latino).

If Bonds plays in 2008, he'll be in the center of a media firestorm--so he might as well play in New York. Moreover, the steroid crap could actually be a positive if it gives the New York writers something to write about and let up on the other (real) issues facing the Mets.

Bonds wants to play in 2008 to: a) finally win a World Championship; and b) show his critics that he doesn't give a rats ass what is said/written about him. Playing for the New York Mets gives him the best chance to win a World Series as well as make a strong statement that he is above the media criticism by taking on the New York press corp.

And the Mets just so happen to get a player capable of solidifying their offense.

Both Bonds and the Mets need to make this happen, IMHO.

It's not that Bonds is likely to have problems with Willie, it's that Willie is going to have problems with Bonds.

In retrospect, it would be fair to say that Willie did hate Milledge. Whatever you think of Milledge's faults (I think they were mostly made up media vendetta ########) Bonds has the same faults (plus many more), only a hundred fold.

Plus can anyone here imagine a scenario in which Bonds and Billy Wagner exist in peace?

Plus can anyone here imagine a scenario in which Bonds and Billy Wagner exist in peace?

yes. But their untimely deaths would probably hurt the Mets' depth.

How many people has Bonds had a problem with? I know about Kent. Anyone else?

Plus can anyone here imagine a scenario in which Bonds and Billy Wagner exist in peace?

Billy Wagner is a #########, so that means they shouldn't sign anyone who he doesn't like?

Plus can anyone here imagine a scenario in which Bonds and Billy Wagner exist in peace?

I think it involves winning a lot of games, and then a World Series title.
Both things seem to smooth over "problems" in a clubhouse.

17
Jason Christiansen

Matt Morris largely blamed him for his pitching problems.

Billy Wagner is a #########, so that means they shouldn't sign anyone who he doesn't like?

It's impossible to reason with the zealous steroid crusaders like kevin. I've come to the conclusion it's impossible to reason with the zealous water carriers either. They twist everything you say and put extreme statements in your mouth because their own position is extreme. Eventually intelligible discussion can't happen, and intelligent debate died long ago. Steroid threads on BTF parallel wedge issues in American politics like abotion.

Matt Morris largely blamed him for his pitching problems.

Huh?

I think it involves winning a lot of games, and then a World Series title.
Both things seem to smooth over "problems" in a clubhouse.

Winning certainly helps the amophous "team chemistry". In fact I subscribe to the theory that the media will portray a team as having "winning chemistry" whenever a team doesn't suffer any particular crisis. However, last year when the Mets were still winning, say August or so, the problems already came out. Of course a lot of those problems have now departed like LoDuca, and a lot of it is because Willie isn't as good a manager of people as we thought. But the clubhouse is still pretty stressed, especially with the pressure of win-now Santana brings. Winning helps, but it doesn't constitute the entirety of chemistry.

I think that Randolph could figure out how to live with Bonds for a year, especially if he's producing.

There is a big difference for 50-something year-old manager taking attitude from a early-20 something who hasn't proven himself and a ~45 year-old who is one of the best players of all-time.

And if Randolph can't figure out how to handle Bonds, that's a possible reason to replace Randolph. The Mets are going to win more games in 2008 if Bonds is getting at bats that would otherwise go to a mediocrity like Ben Johnson.

Ron Kittle will disagree with the earlier contention that Bonds is not racist. Kittle says that he approached Bonds in 1992 to sign some memorabilia for charity, only to be told: "I don't sign for white people."

In terms of Bonds for the Mets, there are several problems. Bonds has become a very poor defensive outfielder, to the point that very few NL teams have shown any interest in him. Some scouts don't think he should play the outfield at all. Also, what happens when Alou comes back? If the Mets play Bonds in left and Alou in right, Carlos Beltran will need an oxygen tank trying to cover center field. So do the Mets trade Alou? If so, what are the options in left field if Bonds gets hurt or has to go to trial during the season?

On the surface, signing Bonds sound promising, but there are so many variables that the Mets should think long and hard before making a commitment.

You people really keep current, don't you? It ain't happening.

How many people has Bonds had a problem with? I know about Kent. Anyone else?


Oh, for fukkks sake. Mark Sweeney? The entire ASU baseball team? C'mon.

g-string

cmon, the ASU thing happened when he was a 20 year old KID. he wasn't having trouble with his ENTIRE giants teams

sometimes guys make themselves easier to get along with as they get older and mellow out. not EVERY guy keeps acting exactly like he did when he was 20 no matter what most women say about em

Mark Sweeney?

What about him?

While we're at it, let's see if we can work up a thread on whether or not the Yanks should trade Chamberlain and Hughes to the Twins for Santana. That's about as equal a probability.

Billy Wagner and Bonds are friendly with each other. This has been brought up the last few times he has faced Wagner.

The entire ASU baseball team?

OK, so I just read an article about this. Let's call this a push at best.

Beltran and Delgado are playing tomorrow. Beltran will DH.

Mark Sweeney?

You are behind the curve on this one.

It's not that Bonds is likely to have problems with Willie, it's that Willie is going to have problems with Bonds.

In retrospect, it would be fair to say that Willie did hate Milledge. Whatever you think of Milledge's faults (I think they were mostly made up media vendetta ########) Bonds has the same faults (plus many more), only a hundred fold.

Bonds, a 44 yo has the same problems Milledge does? Sounds like you don't know what Milledge's issues were.

chris,

too many people are convinced that just about every single baseball player hates bonds and he has no friends in the world and his wife and kids hate him and there is just no telling them otherwise. rick reilly and jeff pearlman have spoken to every single one of em and now we all know it ALL

but i've watched bonds interact with the players on the astros and with the other players at the ASG and all i can say is that if all these players just hate bonds, they ALL deserve oscars for their outstanding acting jobs pretending they glad to see him, talking as if they WANT to talk to him

sometimes guys make themselves easier to get along with as they get older and mellow out. not EVERY guy keeps acting exactly like he did when he was 20 no matter what most women say about em

Which tells us only that "most women" are somewhat confused. The idea that women are somehow more emotionally or psychologically evolved than men is hilarious.

It's not that Bonds is likely to have problems with Willie, it's that Willie is going to have problems with Bonds.

In retrospect, it would be fair to say that Willie did hate Milledge. Whatever you think of Milledge's faults (I think they were mostly made up media vendetta ########) Bonds has the same faults (plus many more), only a hundred fold.

I don't know any of these people so this is all speculation, but I suspect that even if Bonds said and did exactly the same things as Milledge, it wouldn't create the same problems with Randolph.

There's an attitude in baseball -- elsewhere in life too, but in baseball especially -- that if you're a 22 year old rookie, no matter how promising you are, you should shut up and respect people who've been around the game a lot longer than you. Whereas a proven veteran -- particularly a 40+ year old, particularly a HOFer -- is entitled to a heck of a lot of leeway. (Think, e.g., of "Manny being Manny.")

arkitekton Posted: March 10, 2008 at 12:55 AM (#2709547)

sometimes guys make themselves easier to get along with as they get older and mellow out. not EVERY guy keeps acting exactly like he did when he was 20 no matter what most women say about em


Which tells us only that "most women" are somewhat confused. The idea that women are somehow more emotionally or psychologically evolved than men is hilarious.

- amusement
- i was just gently poking fun at some grrrls
but anyhow, you are not understanding what those women are saying
it is NOT that they think they are more evolved etc - that has got exactly NOTHING to do with it
- it is a complaint that men have not made themselves into what it is that the woman wanted them to be in the first place that if he really loved her he would have been. yes, it is the knowing why she's upset business. welcome to the wonderful world of females

By the time I figure out why the wife was upset in the first place, she's already upset about something else.

- amusement
- i was just gently poking fun at some grrrls
but anyhow, you are not understanding what those women are saying
it is NOT that they think they are more evolved etc - that has got exactly NOTHING to do with it
- it is a complaint that men have not made themselves into what it is that the woman wanted them to be in the first place that if he really loved her he would have been. yes, it is the knowing why she's upset business. welcome to the wonderful world of females

I probably did take your post a little too seriously and a little obliquely, chick. It's just that I heard a few things today that made me think that the general notion that women are better at talking about their feelings than men as the biggest bill of goods that's ever been sold.

As for knowing why a woman is upset, over the years I've chosen to take the line that I will deal seriously with anything she might be upset about, but I'm not going to dig excessively for the source. I'll help her figure it out, if she's confused, but if I'm not going to be met roughly halfway--while making exceptions for unusual or particular situations--then it's not going to happen.

Speaking more to a point in your post, one thing I do find very amusing is that some women have mentioned they initially found me attractive because I was a "bad boy", but over time it bothered them that I didn't become more domesticated--any thoughts on that particular syndrome or circumstance?

In terms of Bonds for the Mets, there are several problems. Bonds has become a very poor defensive outfielder

He's a LOT better than Alou out there.

Bonds, a 44 yo has the same problems Milledge does? Sounds like you don't know what Milledge's issues were.

Have you met Bonds? By your own logic if you haven't met him how can you judge his problems? Have you met Lastings Milledge? By your own logic if you haven't met Milledge how can you judge his problems? Why don't you tell me what you think his issues are and why they are different from Bonds' so I don't have to say something that you'll twist into extrems later?

sometimes guys make themselves easier to get along with as they get older and mellow out. not EVERY guy keeps acting exactly like he did when he was 20 no matter what most women say about em

bbc, it is true that most people mature and mellow when they grow older. A significant number however never grew up past 18, 25 or 30. Pete Rose is the same as he was when he played. Hornsby was as much of a jerk in 1962 as he was in 1922. I haven't seen much evidence that Bonds has matured much. Taking roids because you see Sosa and McGwire being more popular than you are is behavior more typical of teenagers than grown up men.

To add to my point

I think a lot, perhaps the majority of the public hostility Bonds generates is the fault of the media, which has been doing a hatchet job on the guy for years even before BALCO. I certainly don't think everybody the man meets hates him. However I also think that Bonds does have a horrible personality and it is a fact now, sad or otherwise, that he will generate public hostility whichever team he plays for this year.

You are free to think of me unkindly as I freely admit to not have much sympathy to a person even though he's been treated unfairly. Then again I'm only the sap who pays for tickets to a ball game. If I were on his jury I would have treated him with a different standard. For reference, I hated Scott Peterson but didn't think the government evidence was sufficient enough to convict him.

Have you met Bonds? By your own logic if you haven't met him how can you judge his problems? Have you met Lastings Milledge? By your own logic if you haven't met Milledge how can you judge his problems? Why don't you tell me what you think his issues are and why they are different from Bonds' so I don't have to say something that you'll twist into extrems later?

You don't seem to understand. Willie said what his problems with MIlledge were, and DMN points those out above. It isn't necessary to "meet" either for that assessment. If I were judging them as a person (say, calling either a jerk), then that would be necessary.

That's not "twisting to an extreme"; there's simply a HUGE difference between a snapshot of someone's behavior, where they happen to act like a jerk (see your post from the other thread), and whether they are some unlikeable monster of a jerk.

Yes, Bonds will generate some public hostility wherever he signs. Of course, that is always brief. If he plays as well as he did in 2007, he'll be loved by the vast majority of the local nine's fans.

By all accounts, Jeff Kent is a grade-A ass (and I have met him, and concur), but he manages.