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Friday, May 09, 2014

Sherman :Minaya’s ‘mess’ is what’s saving Alderson’s Mets now

Omar Minaya’s fingerprints remain indelible on the major league team. You could argue the Mets’ five best players to date have been Daniel Murphy, Lucas Duda, Juan Lagares, Dillon Gee and Jonathon Niese.

All were drafted or signed internationally in a fertile 2006-08 period when Minaya’s Mets brought in a shipload of players who would reach the majors such as Joe Smith, Jose Quintana, Ike Davis, Josh Stinson, Josh Satin, Maikel Cleto, Collin McHugh, Kirk Nieuwenhuis, Wilmer Flores, Jeurys Familia, Jenrry Mejia, Gonzalez Germen and Ruben Tejada. The parting gift came in 2010 – Minaya’s final draft – when the Mets selected Matt Harvey in the first round.

 

thetailor Posted: May 09, 2014 at 11:03 AM | 35 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mets, omar minaya, sandy alderson

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   1. thetailor Posted: May 09, 2014 at 05:23 PM (#4703720)
It's a shame this was posted late Friday because I would love to know what my fellow Mets fans think about this.
   2. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: May 09, 2014 at 05:39 PM (#4703729)
I expressed this on the Carlos Gomez thread--Minaya is in fact a hell of a talent scout. Just don't give him a budget to manage.
   3. formerly dp Posted: May 09, 2014 at 05:45 PM (#4703730)
The bullpen numbers are a bit striking. I didn't get the decision to let Hawkins go, especially with Parnell coming back from injury, but I also thought there was enough talent in the org to cobble together a useful set of arms-- figured one of the young guys would've kicked it up a notch by now.
   4. thetailor Posted: May 09, 2014 at 06:31 PM (#4703739)
Beltran, Pedro, minor league signings? Those *felt* like Minaya deals.

Did Bay *feel* like a Minaya deal? It didn't to me. It felt like the Wilpons needed a splash, didn't realize they were poor.
   5. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 09, 2014 at 06:57 PM (#4703751)
I expressed this on the Carlos Gomez thread--Minaya is in fact a hell of a talent scout. Just don't give him a budget to manage.

This doesn't really compute, plus GMs have very little to do with amateur scouting, especially beyond the team's first-round pick.
   6. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: May 09, 2014 at 07:01 PM (#4703752)
Did Bay *feel* like a Minaya deal? It didn't to me. It felt like the Wilpons needed a splash, didn't realize they were poor.


That's how I felt too.

I expressed this on the Carlos Gomez thread--Minaya is in fact a hell of a talent scout. Just don't give him a budget to manage.


And that's also how I feel.
   7. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: May 09, 2014 at 10:33 PM (#4703827)

This doesn't really compute, plus GMs have very little to do with amateur scouting, especially beyond the team's first-round pick.


Minaya has always regarded himself as a scout first and foremost, even as GM. "Show me talent and I'll show you OBP." He was always on the ground in Latin America in particular. He just ran the team's budget aground at the worst possible time in the Wilponzis lives.
   8. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: May 10, 2014 at 02:18 AM (#4703916)
I don't know who was responsible for the late round drafting during Minaya's tenure, but that was certainly a strength.

Alderson has actually been awful at spending what money he has been given as GM of the Mets.

Truth be told, I think drafting is more important than it has been in decades. Every team has enough money to keep their homegrown stars now. The days of guys like Beltran becoming free agents in the prime of their careers are gone.
   9. PreservedFish Posted: May 10, 2014 at 03:18 AM (#4703918)
I think it's fine to point out that Minaya was able to find some good amateur talent. But the overall thrust of the article - that Alderson's only successes are still based on the team Minaya assembled - isn't really proving much. This was the first offseason he was able to spend more than a few bucks. So it's not surprising that the team is still chock full of Minaya acquisitions. Who else would it have?

Alderson's first draft was in 2011, and he took two high school kids in the first round. It's not surprising that these guys haven't contributed to the major league team yet.

You could argue the Mets’ five best players to date have been Daniel Murphy, Lucas Duda, Juan Lagares, Dillon Gee and Jonathon Niese.


These are five guys that range from OK to a little bit better than OK. Good assets, sure, but this isn't a huge feather in Minaya's cap.

Or, you can argue, the parting gift was leaving Carlos Beltran and R.A. Dickey behind so Alderson could trade for Zack Wheeler, Travis d’Arnaud and Noah Syndergaard. In other words, even what have been hailed as Alderson’s best moves, so far, have Minaya’s legacy as part of them.


Now, this is just stupid.
   10. formerly dp Posted: May 10, 2014 at 08:27 AM (#4703933)
Alderson has actually been awful at spending what money he has been given as GM of the Mets.
He's had to gamble on low-range players. I though the Marcum deal looked good at the time. Colon for $10M/yr will look good when it's done, even if they do end up dealing him this offseason for essentially nothing. The bullpen arms he's pulled off the scrapheap have been better than the ones he's spent actual money on. Of course, Granderson looks like a huge mistake right now, but we're not far enough into the season to say for sure.
Truth be told, I think drafting is more important than it has been in decades. Every team has enough money to keep their homegrown stars now. The days of guys like Beltran becoming free agents in the prime of their careers are gone.
Doesn't this stress the importance of making good trades, too? Three of the team's top young players came via deals that were timed to maximize the value of the assets the Mets had on hand. Even the Byrd trade netted a surprising amount.
   11. Conor Posted: May 10, 2014 at 10:02 AM (#4703961)
Two Mets threads at once!

It seems pretty obvious that the best thing Sandy has done since taking over is trades. Sure you can say Minaya "left" Beltran and Dickey around, but Sandy did a great job maximizing the value he got for them, and ditto with Byrd. Dilson Herrera is a legit prospect.
   12. formerly dp Posted: May 10, 2014 at 10:18 AM (#4703973)
Dilson Herrera is a legit prospect.
8 games at SS this year. Plan C?

I passed out before the game last night ended. Any impressions of Flores at SS?
   13. formerly dp Posted: May 10, 2014 at 10:42 AM (#4703984)
Campbell's been called up from Vegas, looks like Satin's going down. Probably the right move-- Satin needs to get his bat going, and he's not going to get enough ABs with the Mets to do so. Campbell's line: .355/.442/.525, 3 HRs, 39 R, 24 RBI.
   14. JE (Jason) Posted: May 10, 2014 at 12:30 PM (#4704044)
Just noticed this:
At career 0.8 WAR, Josh Satin is the 4th best position player drafted by Omar Minaya after Daniel Murphy, Ike Davis, and Josh Thole.
   15. formerly dp Posted: May 10, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4704053)
Thole in 2014: .395/.439/.447.
   16. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 10, 2014 at 01:38 PM (#4704065)
Minaya has always regarded himself as a scout first and foremost, even as GM. "Show me talent and I'll show you OBP."

I know that's how he sees himself and how media types often describe him, but the track record simply isn't very impressive. Minaya was lucky, early in his career, to be involved with the signings of a few studs for low dollars (Pudge, Igor, maybe Sammy Sosa?) and a reputation for being a great scout stuck with him. But let's face it: It didn't take much scouting skill to figure out that Pudge Rodriguez was a baseball prospect. Defensively, Pudge was a man among boys when he was in the big leagues; imagine what he looked like on a field full of 16-year-olds.

He was always on the ground in Latin America in particular.

Minaya promised to make the Mets a powerhouse in the Latin amateur market but didn't come close to doing so.
   17. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: May 10, 2014 at 02:28 PM (#4704086)
I guess if for some reason you want to give him zero credit for anything this century, that's one way to look at it.
   18. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 10, 2014 at 02:40 PM (#4704095)
I guess if for some reason you want to give him zero credit for anything this century, that's one way to look at it.

I didn't say anything about "zero credit." I said that, on the whole, Minaya's track record is unimpressive, which it is. A GM who was some sort of superscout and had the Mets pre-Madoff budget to spend should have amassed a lot more talent than the Minaya-era Mets.
   19. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: May 10, 2014 at 03:00 PM (#4704117)
Your post mentioned I-rod, Sosa, and somebody named igor. I can't imagine where I got the impression that you weren't giving him credit for this century.
   20. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 10, 2014 at 03:25 PM (#4704144)
Your post mentioned I-rod, Sosa, and somebody named igor. I can't imagine where I got the impression that you weren't giving him credit for this century.

I mentioned them to explain the genesis of the "Omar Minaya is a great scout" belief that helped propel him to the GM chair.

Which players are the 1990s and 2000s examples of Minaya being a great scout? GMs who are great scouts amass talent via the draft and trades and waiver claims and ML free agency and the international market. Minaya never distinguished himself in any of those areas, despite enjoying one of the biggest budgets in MLB.
   21. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: May 10, 2014 at 04:15 PM (#4704169)
Igor is Juan Gonzalez.
   22. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: May 10, 2014 at 05:11 PM (#4704186)
Joe, I think there is an article that touches on this.
   23. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 10, 2014 at 05:21 PM (#4704188)
Joe, I think there is an article that touches on this.

The article serving as the basis for this thread? If so, it includes a very uninspired list of players, with the exception of Matt Harvey (and Minaya's role in Harvey's selection is unclear; MLB GMs typically spend very little time on amateur scouting unless they're picking No. 1 overall or very close thereto).
   24. PreservedFish Posted: May 10, 2014 at 06:38 PM (#4704210)
The article serving as the basis for this thread? If so, it includes a very uninspired list of players, with the exception of Matt Harvey (and Minaya's role in Harvey's selection is unclear; MLB GMs typically spend very little time on amateur scouting unless they're picking No. 1 overall or very close thereto).


Love the logic here.

Step 1: Minaya put together a crappy farm system.
Step 2: Except for one amazing player.
Step 3: But GM's don't deserve credit for the farm system anyway.
   25. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: May 10, 2014 at 06:48 PM (#4704214)
The GM is personally accountable for everything that happens in his organization. He doesn't do much personal scouting, but it's his job to hire the people who hire the people who do. It's an important job--and the ability to hire the right people, fire the wrong people, and establish a successful culture is rare and extremely valuable--and most of the people who try their hand at it fail miserably.
   26. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 10, 2014 at 07:02 PM (#4704220)
Love the logic here.

Step 1: Minaya put together a crappy farm system.
Step 2: Except for one amazing player.
Step 3: But GM's don't deserve credit for the farm system anyway.

That's not remotely an accurate summary of my "logic." Regardless, I love the logic of the Minaya apologists, who seem to think acquiring one stud in 6 years as GM constitutes anything other than a lousy track record. By that logic, Tony Reagins was an awesome GM because he was GM when the Angels drafted Mike Trout.
   27. PreservedFish Posted: May 10, 2014 at 07:12 PM (#4704222)
I'm really not a Minaya apologist. I think he was a mediocre GM. I just felt like pouncing on your inane comment.
   28. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 10, 2014 at 07:18 PM (#4704226)
I'm really not a Minaya apologist. I think he was a mediocre GM. I just felt like pouncing on your inane comment.

Which "inane" comment was that? The one you quoted in #24 wasn't remotely "inane" in response to a claim Minaya is a great scout. A great scout with a top-5 MLB budget comes up with more than one stud in 6 years as GM.
   29. PreservedFish Posted: May 10, 2014 at 07:29 PM (#4704231)
A great scout with a top-5 MLB budget comes up with more than one stud in 6 years as GM.


Yes, you're right.

Again, it was the thought process, wherein you criticize Minaya for his shitty farm system and then, in the same paragraph, you downplay the significance of one extraordinary prospect because "GM's typically spend very little time on amateur scouting." Do you see why that is inconsistent?
   30. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 10, 2014 at 07:41 PM (#4704237)
Again, it was the thought process, wherein you criticize Minaya for his shitty farm system and then, in the same paragraph, you downplay the significance of one extraordinary prospect because "GM's typically spend very little time on amateur scouting." Do you see why that is inconsistent?

No, because it's not inconsistent. First of all, one great prospect does not a great farm system make. Beyond that, the discussion wasn't regarding the "buck stops here!" nature of the GM job, wherein a GM gets credit or blame for everything that happens during his tenure; it was regarding the specific claim that Minaya is a great scout.

Aside from the fact that Minaya likely had little to do with the selection of Matt Harvey, a GM who was a "great scout" and had a top-5 budget to spend should have acquired a lot more than one stud in the 6 years he was GM. The guy in #22 pointed to the linked article as evidence for the "great scout" claim, but the article does anything but bolster such a claim. Where were all the brilliant trades, the brilliant international signings, the brilliant waiver claims? There weren't many (or any), and that's why Minaya was eventually shown the door.
   31. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: May 10, 2014 at 08:51 PM (#4704261)
I shouldn't have fed the troll. I didn't realize.
   32. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 10, 2014 at 09:20 PM (#4704266)
I shouldn't have fed the troll. I didn't realize.

LOL. Still waiting for that list of players that help to prove Minaya is a "great scout." Contrary to your claim in #22, the players listed in the above-linked article sure as hell don't get us there.
   33. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: May 10, 2014 at 09:45 PM (#4704272)
Why would you use quotes around "great scout"?
   34. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: May 11, 2014 at 02:59 AM (#4704315)
Guys who made it to the MLB drafted by the Minaya while Met GM:

2005: Mike Pelfrey, Drew Butera, Jon Niese, Josh Thole, and Bobby Parnell. Good draft considering the Mets only had one pick in the top 100.
The best players in that draft for the Mets were all drafted after the 7th round.

2006: Kevin Mulvey, Joe Smith, and Daniel Murphy, Tobi Stoner, and Josh Stinson. Murphy is a fine player and Smith is a guy who has a solid career as a reliever. Again, the best player in that draft was drafted late as Murphy was drafted in the 13th round. Not a great draft but not horrible either.

2007: Eddie Kunz, Zach Lutz, Lucas Duda, Robert Carson, Dillon Gee, and Juan Centeno. Gee was drafted in the 21st round and has been an average major league starter for the Mets. Duda has hit enough to be a mediocre first baseman which is a good value for where he was drafted. Decent draft.

2008: Ike Davis, Kirk Nieuwenhuis, Josh Satin, and Collin McHugh, and Chris Schwinden. If Davis doesn't eventually become a decent starter, this will be a poor draft especially considering the Mets had 3 first round picks. McHugh has been good for Houston so far this year.

2009: Nobody has made it yet. Only Steven Matz is a good prospect from those players. Matz has good skills but has struggled with health quite a bit. Obviously, not a great draft.

2010: Matt Harvey, Matt den Dekker, and Josh Edgin. Harvey is a stud and that's enough to make it a pretty good draft. Jake DeGrom is a pretty solid prospect who was drafted in the 9th round. If DeGrom has a solid career as a starter, this draft will be quite good.

Overall trends: Much better at drafting pitching than position players, really good value late and generally poor in the earlier rounds.


   35. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: May 11, 2014 at 09:00 AM (#4704331)
I'd also like to be able to think about his time with the Mets in the late 90s/early aughts. Much harder to attribute. This came up first thinking about Carlos Gomez, who signed the same year Minaya left for the expos, so it's hard to know.

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