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Sunday, November 06, 2011

SI.com: The story behind the photo: almost-engaged Cardinals fan

Remember this girl?  Here’s the story.

It wasn’t exactly that he put a ring and tickets on the table and told me to pick one. We’ve been together for several years now and are pretty confident that marriage is in the cards, but he is definitely not in a hurry. Every once in a while, I’ll give him a hard time about it and he’s always quick to change the subject. A week or two before this game (I think we were still playing the Brewers) I brought it up again and he changed the subject to World Series tickets. He told me he got us tickets to Game 6 and I was so thrilled I told him I’d never bring it up again. For the record - it was totally worth it. Game 6 was incredible.

Harold can be a fun sponge Posted: November 06, 2011 at 03:21 AM | 127 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cardinals, online

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   1. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: November 06, 2011 at 01:36 PM (#3987310)
marriage is in the cards

Heh.
   2. Gold Star for Robothal Posted: November 06, 2011 at 04:05 PM (#3987357)
I was pleasantly surprised by the photograph. From the headline, I was expecting a morbidly obese pasty white guy sort of leaning back in his bleacher seat.
   3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 06, 2011 at 04:19 PM (#3987366)
Now dump him. If he knows you want to get married, and hasn't proposed in four years, and you're not <25, he's got issues and probably never will. You bring up lifelong commitment, and he tries to change the subject? Bad sign.
   4. Steve Sparks Flying Everywhere Posted: November 06, 2011 at 04:32 PM (#3987375)
I actually know who she is. She graduated a few years before me at Valpo and I had a few classes with her brother at Valpo. The world is a small place.
   5. bobm Posted: November 06, 2011 at 05:12 PM (#3987411)
FTFA:
SI: When is the wedding (if you're actually getting married)

KS: Sometime in the future, I suppose. We're not engaged - I took the tickets :-)


She stuck to her choice; she's a keeper.
   6. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: November 06, 2011 at 05:39 PM (#3987438)
The Dumbest Generation of Narcissists in the History of the World
   7. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 06, 2011 at 07:35 PM (#3987483)
Now dump him. If he knows you want to get married, and hasn't proposed in four years, and you're not <25, he's got issues and probably never will. You bring up lifelong commitment, and he tries to change the subject? Bad sign.

Get over yourself. Maybe there are reasons he hasn't proposed yet that they don't want to air in a newspaper article.

I would say that if you're a guy and your girlfriend keeps pushing you to propose, it's kind of a no-win situation: if you do, she thinks you only did it because she was harassing you. Most women want to be surprised with a romantic proposal; this isn't really compatible with repeatedly nagging your boyfriend about it.
   8. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 06, 2011 at 07:44 PM (#3987489)
Get over yourself. Maybe there are reasons he hasn't proposed yet that they don't want to air in a newspaper article.

After four years together? And she's 28? Yeah, he doesn't want to get married.

Which is fine. He has every right to never want to get married. He should just be honest to her, b/c she wants to, and he's wasting her time.

Most women want to be surprised with a romantic proposal

Romantic yeah, but it should never be a surprise. Like the lawyers say about trials; never ask a question that you don't already know the answer.
   9. Every Inge Counts Posted: November 06, 2011 at 07:46 PM (#3987490)
Sometimes people don't want to get married anytime soon. I have been with my girlfriend for 4 years and I just turned 28. I love her
   10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 06, 2011 at 07:58 PM (#3987497)
Sometimes people don't want to get married anytime soon. I have been with my girlfriend for 4 years and I just turned 28. I love her

If you both don't want to, that's fine. If you both never want to get married, bully for you.

But if she keeps asking and you keep putting her off (like this case) it's a problem.

I'm not talking about getting married, or not. I'm talking about being honest about one's intentions.
   11. Rough Carrigan Posted: November 06, 2011 at 08:30 PM (#3987509)
Of course, terrorist organizations supposedly traffic in diamonds as a form of currency so by going to the World Series game, she not only saw the Cardinals win but she kept the terrorists from winning! Good woman.
   12. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 06, 2011 at 08:48 PM (#3987515)
We’ve been together for several years now and are pretty confident that marriage is in the cards, but he is definitely not in a hurry.

Another failed St. Louis hit and run.
   13. Babe Adams Posted: November 06, 2011 at 09:31 PM (#3987529)
With the economy the way it is, it wouldn't surprise if people delay marriage for several years.
   14. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: November 06, 2011 at 09:40 PM (#3987533)
The real question is if she laughs when she sees him naked.
   15. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: November 06, 2011 at 09:44 PM (#3987534)
The Dumbest Generation of Narcissists in the History of the World
"Where did you learn to be so dumb and narcissistic?"

"From you, okay?! I LEARNED IT BY WATCHING YOU!"
   16. cardsfanboy Posted: November 06, 2011 at 09:51 PM (#3987539)
The Dumbest Generation of Narcissists in the History of the World


I was thinking it was white kids who grew up in the 50's. or even before, the self proclaimed greatest generation.....
   17. Swedish Chef Posted: November 06, 2011 at 10:14 PM (#3987546)
I was thinking it was white kids who grew up in the 50's. or even before, the self proclaimed greatest generation.....

The 40's and 50's are Baby Boomers, the point of "the greatest generation" crap* was to put down the boomers (which of course is a pretty noble endeavor) by comparing them with their predecessors.

*) As Sweden never fought in WWII and had a pretty mild depression, that generation is mostly known here for making really, really bad comedies. Such is life.
   18. Blastin Posted: November 06, 2011 at 10:19 PM (#3987548)
After four years together? And she's 28? Yeah, he doesn't want to get married.


I dunno man. I'm 25 and if I do get married it won't be until I'm 32 or 33 because I want to 1. pay off grad school and 2. perhaps be at a certain place in my teaching career. Now, if she's straight up asking him to marry her and he's begging her off, that's one thing, but he may well have his reasons for wanting to wait. And from this vantage point we don't know enough - at all - to say whether he's being a jerk or not. I certainly wouldn't say they need to break up.

My mom got married at 35. She wanted to be at a certain place first.
   19. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: November 06, 2011 at 10:27 PM (#3987551)
And from this vantage point we don't know enough - at all - to say whether he's being a jerk or not.

We can say definitively, however, that this young woman enjoys a lot of attention.
   20. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: November 06, 2011 at 10:31 PM (#3987552)
I got married at 20 & 27, & divorced at 25 & 31.

Waiting is hardly the worst idea in the world.
   21. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: November 06, 2011 at 10:44 PM (#3987557)
I hope this turns into another divorce thread!!!
   22. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 06, 2011 at 11:09 PM (#3987566)
After four years together? And she's 28? Yeah, he doesn't want to get married.

Which is fine. He has every right to never want to get married. He should just be honest to her, b/c she wants to, and he's wasting her time.


This is extremely presumptuous, and you have no basis to make such a statement. Not everyone is like you.
   23. Bob Evans Posted: November 06, 2011 at 11:26 PM (#3987571)
He has every right to never want to get married. He should just be honest to her, b/c she wants to, and he's wasting her time.

Look at her sign. Look at her face. She's happy with the situation. Don't be a down, man.
   24. base ball chick Posted: November 06, 2011 at 11:32 PM (#3987576)
snapper is right - hey it happens

IF and i know people lie - IF she has asked him about them getting married more than once over the past year and he refuses to discuss it or changes the subject, then fact is that he doesn't want to marry her

if he DID he should be discussing what he thinks about marriage/kids/when to get married.

there is nothing wrong with waiting to get married if that is what you both want AND you talk it out.

it is stupid to force/blackmail a man (or woman) into marriage - that does not work out real too good. but on the other hand, us females can't (easily) have kids into our 50s and 60s like youse males can and we need to know how the man we want to have as a lifetime partner feels about it

it is horsepoopoo to refuse to discuss it when you don't want to marry her, you KNOW she wants to get married, you refuse to be honest with her because you can't see buying the cow when you getting the milk for free, as harveys puts it
   25. 'Spos stares out the window, waits for spring Posted: November 07, 2011 at 12:09 AM (#3987592)
The Dumbest Generation of Narcissists in the History of the World


O tempora! O mores!
   26. Sunday silence Posted: November 07, 2011 at 01:00 AM (#3987612)
[x] Giving marital/family advice on the internet to total strangers who don't even visit your message board.
   27. Howie Menckel Posted: November 07, 2011 at 01:09 AM (#3987615)
"She graduated a few years before me at Valpo and I had a few classes with her brother at Valpo. The world is a small place."

And my wife was born in Valparaiso.
Really.
   28. The NeverEnding Torii (oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh) Posted: November 07, 2011 at 01:14 AM (#3987617)
You bring up lifelong commitment, and he tries to change the subject?


She's not bringing up lifelong commitment. She's bringing up marriage.
   29. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 07, 2011 at 01:23 AM (#3987620)
Romantic yeah, but it should never be a surprise. Like the lawyers say about trials; never ask a question that you don't already know the answer.

Sure, you shouldn't propose if you're not confident of the answer. But that doesn't mean you can't surprise her. My wife was completely oblivious the night I proposed (to the point where she was making fun of me for keeping the programs from the symphony and a business card from the restaurant we went to that evening).
   30. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 07, 2011 at 01:30 AM (#3987621)
it is horsepoopoo to refuse to discuss it when you don't want to marry her, you KNOW she wants to get married, you refuse to be honest with her because you can't see buying the cow when you getting the milk for free, as harveys puts it


Sure, if you know you *don't* want to get married, you need to be honest with the girl. But what if you want to get married, but you think you still have issues (personally or in the relationship) that you need to work through first? Sometimes that can be difficult to discuss or interpreted as changing the topic.

Based on my own experience -- women sometimes bring up the topic of marriage when they're angry at you about something else. I would change the subject when it came up in that context -- there's no upside to discussing it when she's already mad at you.
   31. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: November 07, 2011 at 01:31 AM (#3987622)
(to the point where she was making fun of me for keeping the programs from the symphony and a business card from the restaurant we went to that evening).

Sounds like you were doing it right, all right.
   32. Howie Menckel Posted: November 07, 2011 at 01:39 AM (#3987624)
We spent all day near Bar Harbor, Maine as I looked around for the perfect spot.

Perfect weather, sun starting to go down, hey, the sailboats at the dock over there sure look nice and peaceful and.... WHOA, A GAZEBO OUT OF NOWHERE.

And, ACTION!

Never look a gift gazebo in the mouth.
   33. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 07, 2011 at 02:37 AM (#3987641)
I'm with snapper and Lisa here. Any woman who has been with a guy for four years and has to pester him about marriage—or, worse, whose entreaties are met with a quick change of subject—should start packing her bags, pronto. He's Just Not That Into You, etc.
   34. Darren Posted: November 07, 2011 at 03:10 AM (#3987658)
I have to say, reading between the lines, I agree with Snapper. The guy doesn't want to get married, it seems, and she has not come to grips with this. To wit, her sign: It tells a nice little story about a woman who, in these tough financial times, opted for a wonderful memory over a piece o jewelry. But that story is nothing like what happened. It wasn't simply that she decided to skip the formality of a ring. It wasn't even a decision on her part at all. Going to the game had nothing to do with their future plans together.

So she decided to make up this sign. Why? To make herself feel better? In hopes that it would attract attention to the situation and shame him into proposing or something? All in all, very weird.
   35. PreservedFish Posted: November 07, 2011 at 03:12 AM (#3987660)
Any woman who has been with a guy for four years and has to pester him about marriage—or, worse, whose entreaties are met with a quick change of subject—should start packing her bags, pronto.


I don't think is fair as a blanket statement.
   36. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 07, 2011 at 03:30 AM (#3987666)
I don't think is fair as a blanket statement.

There are obvious exceptions—started dating at 15 and now they're only 19, or they have careers on opposite sides of the country, etc.—but for 95 couples out of 100, I'm quite confident it's true. If you're in your late 20s and you've been in a serious relationship for four years and you're still not sure if he or she is The One, they're not The One (or they are The One, but you've got serious issues that renders it moot).
   37. McCoy Posted: November 07, 2011 at 03:33 AM (#3987669)
Some weird absolute advice going on here. So if you love somebody enough that you wish to make a lifetime committment to them but they are not at that point yet you should dump them pronto? I guess you didn't really love them afterall.


Sign #53 that the marriage isn't going to work. When you bet your girlfriend that she can't go a whole week without alcohol and then use asking her to marry you as a way to win the bet.

Sign #64 that a woman is reading way too much into the relationship. When she tells you how many kids you'll have and when you'll have them and you haven't even had sex with her yet and the relationship is less then a month old.

Sign #23 that the marriage isn't going to work. When you lose your engagement ring on the beach at 3 in the morning while out with a guy that isn't the guy who gave you the ring.
   38. base ball chick Posted: November 07, 2011 at 03:35 AM (#3987670)
Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 06, 2011 at 08:30 PM (#3987621)

it is horsepoopoo to refuse to discuss it when you don't want to marry her, you KNOW she wants to get married, you refuse to be honest with her because you can't see buying the cow when you getting the milk for free, as harveys puts it


Sure, if you know you *don't* want to get married, you need to be honest with the girl. But what if you want to get married, but you think you still have issues (personally or in the relationship) that you need to work through first? Sometimes that can be difficult to discuss or interpreted as changing the topic.


- then you need to bring up the topic your own self out of the blue. at a time she is not already mad at you about something. if you can't talk honestly with a girl you want to marry, best to get a different girl. working through stuff is hard, yes, but as you ought to know, STAYING married is hard work - at least, staying married reasonably happily.

Based on my own experience -- women sometimes bring up the topic of marriage when they're angry at you about something else. I would change the subject when it came up in that context -- there's no upside to discussing it when she's already mad at you.

- agree 1000%


PreservedFish Posted: November 06, 2011 at 10:12 PM (#3987660)

Any woman who has been with a guy for four years and has to pester him about marriage—or, worse, whose entreaties are met with a quick change of subject—should start packing her bags, pronto.


I don't think is fair as a blanket statement.


- oh yes, YES, it is
if she wants a husband and kids - or even a husband and not a boyfriend, it's been FOUR years. she gonna be waitin until the end of time if she wants HIM because he don't want her.this is not like him sitting down and talking to her about why he wants/needs to wait to get married or even give her a time frame. he doesn't want to get married - at least not to HER.

i watched one of my brothers do this with HIS gf of almost 4 years - she INSISTED on getting married, he didn't want to, but he gave in. would he be honest and just say - no, and goodbye, it's been good while it lasted but i want to stay single for the rest of my life. nooooo. better to lie and cheat.
she caught him cheating not even 2 months later and went and got a divorce. i tried to warn her, but she thought she could change him.

it's one of the most unfortunate things about being a female - makes us have a stupid idea bout how some stupid man is gonna want to change for us because he loves us. sort of like that faust story one of youse guys told me about. i don't know WHERE that stupid poopoo thinking comes from but can't none of us never learn from other grrrls mistakes. we always think we are gonna be the ONE exception to the rule.
   39. Derb Posted: November 07, 2011 at 03:36 AM (#3987672)
Why are we debating marriage? This isn't "E."

We only need to say one thing.

She's hot. She likes baseball. She's awesome.

/thread
   40. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 07, 2011 at 03:43 AM (#3987679)
Some weird absolute advice going on here. So if you love somebody enough that you wish to make a lifetime committment to them but they are not at that point yet you should dump them pronto?

Come on, this is BBTF. See "sunk cost."
   41. McCoy Posted: November 07, 2011 at 03:50 AM (#3987686)
Well, if I take a look at "sunk cost" on BTF I'll come away with an incorrect understanding of it.
   42. base ball chick Posted: November 07, 2011 at 03:55 AM (#3987688)
McCoy Posted: November 06, 2011 at 10:33 PM (#3987669)

Some weird absolute advice going on here. So if you love somebody enough that you wish to make a lifetime committment to them but they are not at that point yet you should dump them pronto? I guess you didn't really love them afterall.


- if you are a 28 year old woman, you have had a monogamous relation with a man for FOUR years, you have told him more than a few times that you want to get married and HE REFUSES TO DISCUSS IT, yes, it is time to admit you love a guy who doesn't love you. sometimes, you fall hopelessly in love with someone who just doesn't feel the same way about you. he likes you, he likes having sex with you, partying with you, but he just doesn't love you enough to want to marry you. by the time you figure this out, you're getting old and it is gonna be harder to find a guy. and to have kids too if you want them. and to deal with all the anger you gonna have when you realized how many years you spent in denial
   43. Morty Causa Posted: November 07, 2011 at 03:56 AM (#3987690)
Hey, this place is starting to sound like the Dear Prudence advice blog at Slate--well, except for the nose bleeds (keep your finger outta there)..
   44. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 07, 2011 at 03:59 AM (#3987692)
Well, if I take a look at "sunk cost" on BTF I'll come away with an incorrect understanding of it.

Ha ha. That's probably true.
   45. base ball chick Posted: November 07, 2011 at 03:59 AM (#3987693)
Derb Posted: November 06, 2011 at 10:36 PM (#3987672)

Why are we debating marriage? This isn't "E."

We only need to say one thing.

She's hot. She likes baseball. She's awesome.


- you got more sense than boyfriend does, that's fer gol-durned sure...

and by the way, i also would prefer WS tickets to an engagement RING - living without the ring is one thing but living without the MAN is something different. we are not all kim kardashians who just want the party and the presents and the pretty dress and all the attention but treat the husband like the wrapping paper to be tossed at the end of all the fun
   46. McCoy Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:02 AM (#3987695)
Thank god we can safely diagnose two complete strangers' relationship based on a couple of paragraphs written by a sports journalist. Next up, world peace via a Sally Struthers commercial.
   47. Blastin Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:03 AM (#3987696)
We know not at all whether her offhand comment in an interview is a perfectly accurate representation of the situation. We don't know if she says, "Hey, are we getting married?" And he refuses to answer. (If that's the case, I agree: deal with this or accept it's not going to happen).

We don't know enough about these people and their conversations to offer them advice. At all.

This entire argument is ridiculous and it's been going on for, like, ten hours.

It's very possible he wants to get married in a few years (nothing wrong with getting married at 31, 32). We just don't know.
   48. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:03 AM (#3987697)
Weddings, wedding rings, they all cost a lot. Couldn't it be that this guy can't afford these things but is too ashamed to admit it to his girlfriend?
   49. Eddo Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:04 AM (#3987698)
I get what Lisa/Joe/etc. are saying - and in those cases, where a woman has made it clear to her boyfriend that she wants to get married and he's having none of it, she's better off dumping him.

However, I think that describes a rather small percentage. Communication problems generally come from both parties; it's far more likely that neither the girl nor the guy have clearly communicated their hopes for the relationship.

I know plenty of people who have dated for four-plus years without getting engaged, eventually did, and wound up being happy in their marriages (well, so far). And I have been on the other end, as well; after four-plus years, I couldn't get my girlfriend to commit to marriage, and it wound up ultimately ending the relationship.

But relationships and love are way too complicated to make blanket statements or claim that things are true "95 times out of 100". I hate giving relationship advice for that reason.
   50. PreservedFish Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:05 AM (#3987701)
There are obvious exceptions—started dating at 15 and now they're only 19, or they have careers on opposite sides of the country, etc.—but for 95 couples out of 100, I'm quite confident it's true.


I agree that it's probably usually the case.

My Facebook feed is basically full of 28-30 year olds getting married. Many of them met in college, so, they dated for 6+ years before tying the knot. This is extremely regular practice, at least with well-educated liberal coastal types.

But I suppose the key here is the girl "pestering." If one partner is always bringing the issue up, and it's always a battle, then you're probably right that it's usually not going to work out.
   51. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:19 AM (#3987706)
We’ve been together for several years now and are pretty confident that marriage is in the cards, but he is definitely not in a hurry. Every once in a while, I’ll give him a hard time about it and he’s always quick to change the subject.
This is what puts me (mostly) in the snapper / Joe / bbc / Darren camp.

One party in a relationship wanting marriage and the other not wanting it is negotiable. But it requires negotiating. If there's no actual negotiation going on, around an issue as big as marriage, the relationship is most likely in trouble. Her "confidence that marriage is in the cards" just sort of makes me sad. It really sounds like she's deluding herself in a relationship that isn't working nearly as well as she thinks it is.
   52. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:20 AM (#3987707)
This entire argument is ridiculous and it's been going on for, like, ten hours.

I haven't even read the article; I just jumped in after reading snapper's and Lisa's comments. In my experience, other than in that Sex and the City movie, I don't know many guys who were essentially dragged down the aisle after four or six or eight years and ended up being happy about it (and Big's happiness level is clearly debatable).

Also, "not ready" usually is Guy Code for "hoping to find someone better," in which case the woman often loses either way (either gets dumped or the guy settles). But I'm 38 and I've never been married, so YMMV, etc.
   53. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:22 AM (#3987710)
However, I think that describes a rather small percentage. Communication problems generally come from both parties; it's far more likely that neither the girl nor the guy have clearly communicated their hopes for the relationship.
It's possible (though her public statements run contrary), but in this case, you're looking at a four-year relationship between two people in their late twenties who have been unable to communicate their desires about a huge issue. That's a big-ass red flag.
   54. Eddo Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:28 AM (#3987713)
One party in a relationship wanting marriage and the other not wanting it is negotiable. But it requires negotiating. If there's no actual negotiation going on, around an issue as big as marriage, the relationship is most likely in trouble. Her "confidence that marriage is in the cards" just sort of makes me sad. It really sounds like she's deluding herself in a relationship that isn't working nearly as well as she thinks it is.

Taking her comments at face value, absolutely. But there is no way anyone posting here knows enough about their relationship to give any advice as drastic as "end the relationship".

For all we know, she was giving answers that she thought the interviewer would like to hear, because she wasn't comfortable discussing her relationship in full honesty to total strangers. Or maybe she exaggerated how quickly he changes the subject, or glossed over that they have actually discussed it in the past beyond just her being confident.

And maybe her comments are 100% accurate, at face value.

The point is, we have no idea. And who are we to tell two people to end a relationship they could be very happy in?
   55. villageidiom Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:30 AM (#3987715)
- oh yes, YES, it is
if she wants a husband and kids - or even a husband and not a boyfriend, it's been FOUR years. she gonna be waitin until the end of time if she wants HIM because he don't want her.this is not like him sitting down and talking to her about why he wants/needs to wait to get married or even give her a time frame. he doesn't want to get married - at least not to HER.
I think he would love to marry her if she weren't so damn insecure. She can't wait to find out if he'll propose; she just needs to know now if he's going to propose later. She can't just go to the game; she needs to bring a sign that bends the truth and show it to the strangers sitting around her so they'll notice her and like her. And she can't just make the sign; she has to make it with two colors and a font that takes more effort. She strikes me as someone who doesn't like being called Type A because she thinks she deserves an A+. Maybe it's not so much that she's waiting for him to mature to the point that he'll want to get married, but rather that he's waiting for her to mature to the point that she won't nag him into proposing.

They've been together for 4 years, so I'd like to assume they both like each other very much. But if she's hoping he'll change into someone ready to propose, and he's hoping she'll change into someone less needy, this is a slow-motion train wreck in the making.

(In reality, I know nothing about her, and less about her boyfriend. So it's likely I'm wrong about all of the above.)

Full disclosure: mrsidiom and I got engaged three years after we started dating. But two of the three years we were dating I was still in college, and I spent much of the third year saving up enough money to buy a ring I'd be proud to give her. We talked about marriage, and children, but only in generalities; I did not avoid the subject. EDIT: And we've been happily married for over 17 years.
   56. Blastin Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:33 AM (#3987719)
We don't even know how serious her statement was, since all we have is the text. Maybe she said it with a smile. I don't think we can know any of this unless we get an interview with him, and I doubt that's going to happen.
   57. Blastin Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:34 AM (#3987721)
The point is, we have no idea. And who are we to tell two people to end a relationship they could be very happy in?


Exactly.
   58. Eddo Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:36 AM (#3987722)
It's possible (though her public statements run contrary), but in this case, you're looking at a four-year relationship between two people in their late twenties who have been unable to communicate their desires about a huge issue. That's a big-ass red flag.

To be fair, my comment wasn't really in regards to this specific case. But again, you have no idea what their relationship is actually like. It could be that we should take her comments as 100% true, but how often do you hear people disclose their relationship in complete honesty to strangers?

And yeah, it's a red flag. But nothing(*) is an automatic you-must-break-up flag.

(*) Nothing along the lines of this discussion. Obviously, there are things that are immediately relationship-enders; any sort of violent or abusive behavior. Adultery, to some people. Lying about some core values or history. But miscommunication, in and of itself, is not one of those things.
   59. Blastin Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:41 AM (#3987723)
Well said.
   60. base ball chick Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:42 AM (#3987724)
i'm not telling anyone that THIS grrrrl should end her relationship, it is quite correct to say that none of know the entire, correct story.

but i AM saying - and i stand by it - that if you are a 28 year old woman who has been in a monogamous relationship with a guy for FOUR years, you have told him many times that you want to get married, and HE REFUSES TO TALK ABOUT IT - he does not want to marry you. and it is time to cut your losses and find someone else. she is already not happy with the way things are; she wants to get married and she is having to find excuses as to why he won't even TALK TO HER about it. trust me - NOT happy.

this is different from people who have talked things over - again TALKED THINGS OVER and decided TOGETHER that marriage isn't right for THEM right now. if they WANT to get married at 35 or 40 or 55 or 65, power to em. the huge differemce is that they TALKED THINGS OVER. unlike this particular couple.

when there is a relationship and one of the partners REFUSES to discuss a crucial thing that has been brought up many times by the other partner, this is a bad BAD sign.
   61. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:42 AM (#3987725)
We don't even know how serious her statement was, since all we have is the text.

When your girlfriend is at an internationally televised World Series game holding up a sign that talks about marriage, you're already a couple exits past serious. Unless the Cards pull off a miracle run every Sept./October, this guy's in big trouble.
   62. Eddo Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:47 AM (#3987728)
Well-said, Lisa. I can agree with that, totally. But just realize you added quite a few qualifiers from some earlier posts.

And Joe (#61) - yeah, I'd have to guess you're right about that. Any public airing of grievances is indeed a bad sign.
   63. McCoy Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:48 AM (#3987729)
Every single relationship has "red flags".
   64. Blastin Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:54 AM (#3987731)
Touche, Joe.
   65. Blastin Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:56 AM (#3987734)
And yeah, if if if it's that dire, it should end. We have no way of knowing if any of that is true though.
   66. base ball chick Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:59 AM (#3987735)
mccoy

every relationship does not have "red flags" but every solid relationship has difficulties that HAVE to be worked through or they will eventually destroy love and trust - not necessarily in that order. and in order to work through stuff, you HAVE to talk it out. even if you can't agree you absolutely HAVE to be able to talk things out

the real "red flag" is having issues you refuse to TALK about or even TRY to compromise on
   67. Blastin Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:03 AM (#3987736)
...and we don't know enough to know for certain that this is the case with the two of them.
   68. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:08 AM (#3987737)
65 — I agree. Other than my semi-joking comment in #61, I've been speaking generally here.
   69. Walt Davis Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:13 AM (#3987738)
I'd imagine it's a little longer now but I knew some folks back in the grad school days researching this sort of stuff and they said the "make or break" time for couples living together (not just dating) was usually about 3 years -- they'd either be engaged/married or broken up within a year ... frequently engaged then broken up which is the most fun of all.

And, yeah, the guy's in the hot seat now -- propose or look like a heel. Or both which is the most fun of all.
   70. Morty Causa Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:38 AM (#3987741)
Yeah, she neatly forced the issue. She either gets her way (assuming she knows what she wants), or she makes him seem like a dork--which is the next best thing to getting your way with a man if you're a woman. She's at optimum right now.
   71. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:42 AM (#3987743)
My Facebook feed is basically full of 28-30 year olds getting married. Many of them met in college, so, they dated for 6+ years before tying the knot. This is extremely regular practice, at least with well-educated liberal coastal types.
This. My Facebook feed is full of late-30s couples getting married and having their first child. I got married at 31 and had a child at 34, and I was one of the very first of my peer group to do both. One of my best friends, a woman, got married at 39 last month. Another one of my friends got married last week; he's 50. This is normal L.A. life.
   72. PreservedFish Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:50 AM (#3987745)
This. My Facebook feed is full of late-30s couples getting married and having their first child. I got married at 31 and had a child at 34, and I was one of the very first one of my peer group to do both.


My mother-in-law is 57, and does remedial adult education in a rural community. Some of her students are in disbelief that she is not a grandmother yet, at her age.
   73. Hugh Jorgan Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:53 AM (#3987746)
My Facebook feed is full of late-30s couples getting married and having their first child. I got married at 31 and had a child at 34, and I was one of the very first one of my peer group to do both. One of my best friends, a woman, got married at 39 last month. Another one of my friends got married last week; he's 50. This is normal L.A. life.

Very common amongst uni educated, white collar workers in most western countries these days. My wife and I married at 27/28, had 5 kids before 39 and we are most definitely the outliers. Our youngest, who is nearly 10 has many friends who are the oldest child and many of the parents are our age(mid/late 40's). You should see the look on their faces when we tell them we have a kid a uni.

She's hot. She likes baseball. She's awesome.

In Australia, like many places, this is referred to as "a keeper" Seriously, if you throw in nice and fun, what more do you need?
   74. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: November 07, 2011 at 01:28 PM (#3987784)
So she decided to make up this sign. Why? To make herself feel better? In hopes that it would attract attention to the situation and shame him into proposing or something?


She felt guilty over her decision. She made the sign to eliminate the guilt and transform it to shame--she's made it into a story in which she is the main character. And once a dozen anonymous people in the ballpark/on the internet say they understand where she's coming from...POOF, the guilt is gone.

For 500,000,000 other examples of this, go to www.facebook.com
   75. Don Malcolm Posted: November 07, 2011 at 03:38 PM (#3987836)
I think we need one of our "Cardinals shouldn't have even been in the post-season" sourpusses (sourpussi?) to leap in here and bring us some much-needed if negatively amortized context for all this.

Or someone willing to attempt to psychoanalyze the subject of this particular "semiotic bait-and-switch" through an examination of her chosen shade of nail polish...
   76. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:10 PM (#3987866)
Fair enough, I guess I'm in the minority here. As Hugh Jorgan says, 28 isn't that old to be getting married for educated urban professional types. Most of my friends got married around 30-32, and had been dating anywhere from 1 to 7 years before they got engaged (for me it was about 2 years).

I wouldn't give anyone relationship advice based on a throwaway comment to a sports reporter -- if she's happy in the relationship, which she seems to be, that's what's important. And I'd be willing to bet that they'll be engaged in the next year or two.
   77. base ball chick Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:15 PM (#3987872)
Los Angeles Person of Anaheim Posted: November 07, 2011 at 12:42 AM (#3987743)

My Facebook feed is basically full of 28-30 year olds getting married. Many of them met in college, so, they dated for 6+ years before tying the knot. This is extremely regular practice, at least with well-educated liberal coastal types.

This. My Facebook feed is full of late-30s couples getting married and having their first child. I got married at 31 and had a child at 34, and I was one of the very first of my peer group to do both. One of my best friends, a woman, got married at 39 last month. Another one of my friends got married last week; he's 50. This is normal L.A. life.


- i guess i don't understand dating so long before getting married, unless you either don't want to get maried, or can't find good jobs or something like that??? of course i am not an educated, coastal type. and then again, almost none of my friends ARE married or WANT to get married.


i know that i wouldn't want to wait until age 39 to get married and start trying to get pregnant. unless you've already had your kids.

when he was 39, john brattain told me he was SOOOOO glad he was married and had been happily married since he was 22 and that if something happened to his marriage, he wouldn't want to have to find another woman - too difficult. i know exactly what he means and i'm nowhers near that old right now.

- i didn't get pregnant until i was 21 and by then every single one of my friends had had at least 1 kid. my twins are 9 and in their class, their mothers are my age or younger or the kids are with their grandmas. my younger son is in a different school and in his class, most of the parents are a LOT oldern me. of course they all have "helpers" so i wonder how they would do if like me they had to do it all their own selves. i have a hard enough time dealing with the thought of getting preggo at MY age and the thought of being preggo 10 years from now is beyond nightmare.
   78. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:22 PM (#3987882)
The year I and most of my friends turned 28 was the year I went to the most weddings. It was actually comical, every 2 weeks the previous fall was "hey, Amy and I got engaged!" or some such thing.

Then I got mono and got to go to four bachelor parties without being able to drink.
   79. Flynn Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:28 PM (#3987890)
I got married the day after my 26th birthday to a woman I had been with for a shade over four years who made cutouts of MLB teams for each table at our wedding (she made another one for each table, with a short history of the team and a story written by me). She's awesome, so I couldn't wait to put a ring on it, even though I had about two cents to rub together until just before we got married (the engagement ring is my grandma's, etc.).

So yeah, my personal feelings put me in the bbc/snapper camp, this guy isn't that into her.
   80. Chicago Joe Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:34 PM (#3987891)
My mother-in-law is 57, and does remedial adult education in a rural community. Some of her students are in disbelief that she is not a grandmother yet, at her age.


Yeah, but those people are stupid.
   81. just plain joe Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:37 PM (#3987895)
i know that i wouldn't want to wait until age 39 to get married and start trying to get pregnant. unless you've already had your kids.


My wife and I were in our mid-thirties when we got married, but we had decided (for several reasons) that we were not going to have any children. One of the downsides to getting married at a relatively young age is that many people in their late teens/early twenties haven't got all of their "running around" out of their system. When people forget that they are married and stay out all night and start having sex with people they aren't married to it is certain to cause marital problems. One of my sisters got married when she was 18 and she was definitely not ready; she just recently got divorced for the fourth time. My brother was 19 when he got married and, while he and my sister-in-law are still married, they definitely had some rocky periods along the way. Obviously every couple who marries young does not run into hard times; however, my personal view is that it is better to get those wild oats sown early and then settle down.
   82. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:41 PM (#3987898)
- i guess i don't understand dating so long before getting married, unless you either don't want to get maried, or can't find good jobs or something like that??? of course i am not an educated, coastal type.

I'm with you Lisa. I think when you know, you know.

When I finally met the right woman, I knew within 2 months I wanted to marry her, we started discussing it after about 4 months, were engaged within 6 months, and married inside a year.

The funny thing is we didn't meet until I was 34 and she was 28, but, my wife went to HS and college with my sisters.

We always wonder if we had met then, whether we'd have been married for 12 or 15 years now, vs. the actual 6.
   83. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:45 PM (#3987901)
that many people in their late teens/early twenties haven't got all of their "running around" out of their system.

Hah! There's plenty of people in their 30's or 40's who haven't either.
   84. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:46 PM (#3987904)
I don't think 28 is old to be getting married. I don't think there's anything wrong with dating for years before getting married. (I don't believe in marriage before sex.)

But it's perfectly reasonable, also, to want to get married at 28, after four years of dating. If one person in a relationship wants to get married, and says so, and the other blows it off, that's a big-ass red flag. It's certainly possible to negotiate through a difference in feelings about marriage, but it requires negotiation in the relationship. The story told here involves none of that, just the guy changing the subject when it comes up. That's bad news, if true.
   85. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:49 PM (#3987908)
79 — Congrats on the recent wedding. Best of luck to you and your bride.

81 — You make some interesting points, although the pros and cons seem hard to calculate. It seems like I know more people who got married in their 20s who are happy than I do people who got married in their 30s or later and are happy (i.e., still married). I'm curious how the numbers look in various age brackets. On the one hand, waiting until one is older, more stable, etc., seems smart, but on the other, it seems like people have so much baggage by their late 20s or 30s that a bellhop is needed. Lisa's anecdote about John Brattain in #77 seems very true.
   86. Morty Causa Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:55 PM (#3987912)
Yes, we are creatures of inculcated patterns of behavior to a great degree. By your '30's, and late '30's, you're set in many ways and it's hard for many of us to change or adjust even. Many in their '20's begin a family, are struggling to climb the greasy professional pole, and this has the effect of forcing that person to make changes, changes that he is more willing to make than if he is in a state where he is okay with the way he is and the way things are
   87. PreservedFish Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:57 PM (#3987914)
- i guess i don't understand dating so long before getting married, unless you either don't want to get maried, or can't find good jobs or something like that??? of course i am not an educated, coastal type.

I'm with you Lisa. I think when you know, you know.


I don't like this because it sounds dangerously close to a belief in soulmates.

I knew within weeks of meeting my wife that she was the type of girl I would like to marry. But it was another, oh, 8 years or so before I knew that getting married to HER was the right decision.
   88. bunyon Posted: November 07, 2011 at 04:59 PM (#3987918)
You're all overlooking the blindingly obvious here. Even Lisa, which surprises me.


That is, this woman is a Cardinals fan and so should in no way be encouraged to procreate.
   89. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:00 PM (#3987920)
I don't like this because it sounds dangerously close to a belief in soulmates.

Not saying there's only one woman with whom you can "know". I'm just saying that when you find one, it doesn't take that long.

I knew within weeks of meeting my wife that she was the type of girl I would like to marry. But it was another, oh, 8 years or so before I knew that getting married to HER was the right decision.

How old were you when you met?

My longest "pre-Mrs. Snapper" relationship was about 3 years, and I believed that we were close to engagement before it went asses over tea-cups. In retrospect, dodged a HUGE bullet.
   90. McCoy Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:05 PM (#3987924)
Every relationship does have "red flags". Take a bunch of outsiders and have them view a relationship and they'll come up with at least a half dozen "red flags" in that relationship.
   91. PreservedFish Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:06 PM (#3987926)
How old were you when you met?

Young. 19. Of course things might have been different had we met at 27. Impossible to say.
   92. Flynn Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:10 PM (#3987931)
In a perfect world I'd have started my career sooner and paid for more. But having my elderly grandparents over from the States (they're in their mid-80s, so in five years time they'd be totally unable to travel, if not dead), having my friends and I be young enough to throw a whopper of a party after the reception instead of being tired or needing to go home to the baby was worth it.
   93. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:12 PM (#3987936)
Young. 19. Of course things might have been different had we met at 27. Impossible to say.

Yeah, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

At 19, you're looking at a minimum of 4 years dating before marriage, if you're at all smart.
   94. Spahn Insane Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:35 PM (#3987949)
the real "red flag" is having issues you refuse to TALK about or even TRY to compromise on

This, in a nutshell.
   95. Greg K Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:42 PM (#3987957)
At 19, you're looking at a minimum of 4 years dating before marriage, if you're at all smart.

As 19 year olds tend to be.

Historically speaking average age of marriage is tied to economics. As with politics and religion, I'm far more familiar with 17th century relationships and marriage than those of the present day, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were similarities. In England the aristocracy and rural labourers married quite young, but the fast-growing demographics of the urban poor and artisans married quite late (averages around mid to late 20s, which is VERY late when you consider the average lifespan). Creating a secure economic base to build a household around was key before you could even think of marriage. Which could mean years of working up the food chain, or a lengthy stretch as an apprentice. I could see a parallel with the university educated of the present day who by and large have high expectations for the standard of living their prospective family should enjoy. It's quite common for the average age of first marriages to rise in times of economic stagnation as there's a disconnect between the expectation and reality of household economics.

I would quite like to be married, though it's not happening until I finish my present degree at the earliest (at which time I'd be 30 or so). Of course there's also the matter of finding the girl...but that's a minor detail. I've actually been in relationships where I was fairly certain this was the one I'd eventually marry, but there was no way in hell it would be happening for several years. Maybe I'm just too old fashioned, but I can't envision being in a marriage if I don't have a real job. So grad school, then marriage it is!
   96. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:47 PM (#3987963)
Historically speaking average age of marriage is tied to economics. As with politics and religion, I'm far more familiar with 17th century relationships and marriage than those of the present day, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were similarities. In England the aristocracy and rural labourers married quite young, but the fast-growing demographics of the urban poor and artisans married quite late (averages around mid to late 20s, which is VERY late when you consider the average lifespan).

From my readings, long-term averages in the West (over centuries and millennia) tend to be ~24 for men, and ~20 for women. The four year age gap is also very stable. Even as average ages move up and down, women tend to marry men ~3-5 years older than they are.

The post-WW2 Baby Boom, with people marrying right out of HS was an aberration to the young side, driven by the widespread availability of high-paying blue-collar jobs and cheap housing.
   97. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:51 PM (#3987967)
Cardinals girl should just do what my then-gf did: propose to *him*.
   98. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:53 PM (#3987970)
Cardinals girl should just do what my then-gf did: propose to *him*.

Does "then-gf" mean current wife or ex-gf? i.e. did it work?
   99. Greg K Posted: November 07, 2011 at 05:54 PM (#3987971)
From my readings, long-term averages in the West (over centuries and millennia) tend to be ~24 for men, and ~20 for women. The four year age gap is also very stable. Even as average ages move up and down, women tend to marry men ~3-5 years older than they are.

I think that's largely accurate. It's in specific periods of economic turmoil and in specific groups (particularly urban wage-labourers and artisans) where you get the abberations from those general trends. Until you get to the 20th century of course, where people get all weird and indecipherable.
   100. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 07, 2011 at 06:02 PM (#3987976)
Until you get to the 20th century of course, where people get all weird and indecipherable.

It will be very interesting to see if in 200 years the 20th century is viewed as the beginning of "normalcy" or an aberration in terms of work, marriage, family, children, etc.

I'd bet on the latter. I think we're seeing the beginning of the death throes of the welfare state, and the comfy western lifestyle that permits adolescence until 30, and retirement at 55.
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