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OK, go.
I'm ready.
What's the difference between Bonds and Mypenis?
Bonds is a human being who plays baseball, has a family, and does stuff. Mypenis just likes to get some.
Hmm...I think the joke still needs work.
According to Verducci (on ESPN Radio), the starting-in-the-'98-offseason thing is new; most people assumed he had started a year or 18 monhts later, based on what Kimberly Bell had said. The second thing is the amount and variety of stuff he allegedly used. I don't really know if that's newsworthy, but Verducci thought so.
The two Chron authors are on ESPN Radio now.
The stuff pre-2001, before the cream and the clear, and the amount and range of drugs is new, from what I remember. The mistress made allegations about stuff other than the cream and the clear, but she did not have great credibility because she was selling a book.
Wow.
Right now, the Kirby Puckett tragedy is pushing this off the front page, but this is going to explode.
18: One more thing---the authors just said on the radio that they had heard the actual death threat tapes from Bell, for what that's worth, and they were sure it was Bonds' voice, for what that's worth.
In secret grand jury testimony obtained by the authors, Bonds testified that he did not know what the substances were that Anderson gave him and he put in his body, saying at one point, "It's like, 'Whatever, dude.'"
As the man said, Wow.
I guess Barry forgot that Sosa isn't white.
But he's a better teammate than Jeff Kent.
Doesn't a war require two sides? Other than the loonies who don't care if professional sports are turned into a domestic version of the SNL All-Drug Olympics, how is anyone on Bonds' side in this thing any more?
Nah, I suspect that this thread won't be as big as people expect. It'll get a few hundred posts, but won't break 756. Bonds has been done to death already on this site.
He was a clear HOFer before 'roids; you wonder if this book will go so far as to take him out of the HOF.
I guess representing the steroid agnostics... this story certainly is impressive, however, prior to 2004, it wasn't against the laws of baseball (the U.S. and other laws, yes), and I think most people accepting Bonds did something, but I don't know that it impacts my view of his legacy.
He's a flawed superstar of a flawed era, but still a hall of famer.
Bonds is the top story on cnn.com right now, ahead of Dick Cheney threatening Iran.
Ahh, but don't forget the people that no matter what comes out, its just still hearsay, we have established those people still exist here
also I still don't see anything about him kicking dogs therefore he should be given a pass, though I wouldn't be surprised if Anderson was his dog
and for those of us who never doubted his drug use from the first hints, nah, nah, nah, nah...nah
Interesting.
Later,
H3
Other than the loonies who think anyone who doesn't agree with them exactly on the significance of the issue doesn't care if professional sports are turned into a domestic version of the SNL All-Drug Olympics, how is anyone taking sides in this thing any more?
There's a vast middle ground between "yay steroids!" and "I hate all steroid users, wish ill upon them, and delight in their public ridicule" that you don't seem to recognize.
My, my, how will MLB handle this mess.
Me thinks that Bonds goes the way of Mark, attempts to fade away into obscurity. I'll be rooting for Bonds to just slither away, the piece of crap that he is.
It makes perfect sense for a guy of Bonds' ego, here he is the best player in the game and everyone is talking about how great McGwire and Sosa are
I know numerous people had offered this years ago but were written off as "haters"
Both hate the media.
Both have public relations issues.
Both feel themselves to be surrounded by enemies.
Both will do whatever it takes to get ahead, no matter what.
Bell retained answering machine recordings of him after he threatened to kill her, remarking that if she disappeared no one would be able to prove he even knew her.
Both say ill-considered things on tape.
Somehow I doubt the MLBPA would allow that, the slippery slope and all...
Both have had sex with Pat Nixon.
Assuming this book explicitly alleges ass-injections, etc., if Barry Bonds does not sue the authors of this book, is it fair for me to conclude from that, that this book is pretty much true?
Nothing on ESPN.com yet.
Are actual writers who have reputations and jobs based on what they write. This doesn't automatically give them massive amounts of credibility, but they've got a lot more at stake than Barry Bonds' mistress, who has nothing at stake.
They haven't decided how this will affect the Bonds reality show.
I know numerous people had offered this years ago but were written off as "haters"
To salve his ego, couldn't he just have just told everybody he was the best player who didn't use steroids?
The authors of the book seem to have sources to back up their claims -- sorry, I didn't RTWFA, just the first page -- whereas Bell was trading almost solely on her word, and no one knew who she was to begin with, so that's a tougher sell. She also had an obvious vendetta-type motive that seems lacking for the authors.
Which is why I think it's basically just a HR record issue ... by which I mean I don't think it popped up as a REAL PROBLEM in the public consciousness until McGwire was a real threat to pass Maris, and Bonds was a real threat to pass Aaron. Not that there's no other reason to want steroids out of the game, but I think the trigger is the "sanctity of the record book" and to paint the public's "overwhelming outrage" as anything but seems revisionist to me. And revisionist history bothers me more than steroid use does. It's much, much, more harmful.
i wasn't living here in alabama at the time, but my understanding is that wallace's post-assassination-attempt (& -contrition) electoral success stemmed largely from the black vote. would the equivalent be the union stumping for bonds' election to the hof?
Not really all that interesting to listen to, if nothing else.
(Sample size proviso may apply.)
LIARS! ONLY OUT TO GET BARRY! Barry is innocent, and those above calling him "flawed" are showing their racist tendencies.
Keep trying to tear him down. He will survive these false allegations.
I'd assume it's because he knew, or suspected, others were also using and he wanted the same advantage, which of course is most troubling.
Interesting that the story mentions that steroids appeared to improve his eyesight which is something I didn't know was an effect.
Does Dwight Chapin still write for the SF Chronicle?
Isn't that what sent Pete Rose to prison, not reporting his income from memorabilia shows?
Also, the authors accuse Bonds of threatening to murder Kimberly Bell. If that is true, why have the S.F. police not arrested him?
I actually thought that is what he has been doing :)
Improved eyesight is a known effect of taking Human Growth Hormone.
They haven't decided how this will affect the Bonds reality show.
ESPN is not really a news organization and is hopelessly conflicted on the Bonds issue.
Plus to ESPN, nothing is really "confirmed" or "news" until they can say something like "ESPN.com's Jayson Stark reports ...."
Keith Olbermann, who is on now with Trey Wingo (who really sucks), said that if Bonds does not sue for libel, he is pretty much admitting these accusations are true. That is not literally or legally true. But I think it is practically true.
does that make felipe alou henry kissinger?
Nah, in cases like this, they say "ESPN.com's Jayson Stark has learned..."
Interesting that the story mentions that steroids appeared to improve his eyesight which is something I didn't know was an effect.
Which is why people shouldn't have jumped the gun and said that steroids don't help you hit a baseball.
Bonds has never seemed to care about his rep as far as what people think of him personally. His ego appears to be fed by being known as the best ballplayer there is.
To know you are the best, and then to sit and watch others you know are cheating get all the adulation, would have to eat away at someone like Bonds.
I can't excuse what BB did, but I sure can understand it.
and BOTH stories are ahead of Conan and Andy reuniting! shows what twisted priorities we have.
My, my, how will MLB handle this mess.
Poorly.
But it's pretty close to literally true ... SI and the book publisher both had teams of lawyers looking over everything published and never would have let it go if they thought it might be libelous.
Plus Bonds has every incentive to file a libel suit since he might think it would help his reputation.
The compromise they settled upon was that the commissioner would retain the BIOB power for gambling-related matters, but not for anything else. All other discipline was subject to collective bargaining and grievance arbitration.
In the heat of a quarrel with a girlfriend, people can say things they don't mean. It's pretty hard to prosecute that sort of thing, especially now that she's probably in no imminent danger. If true, though, it does serve to paint him as a menacing boor, which is all they're trying to do.
After Whittaker Chambers accused Alger Hiss of spying for the Russians in front of a congressional committee, Hiss dared him to repeat the charge without the cloak of congressional immunity.
Chambers repeated the charge on Meet the Press, Hiss sued, and that, my friends, was the beginning of the end for Alger Hiss.
Bonds should just sue SI if he wants to clear his name.
Gaedel,
According to the SI article, these threats were made in telephone conversations that Kimberly Bell recorded. Seems to me, that is much clearer evidence that "heat of a quarrel."
Sure there is.
Actually, it's more like, "ESPN.com's Jayson Stark has read on SI.com..."
It's up on their front page now. They bumped Puckett for it.
It's really not a big mystery at all, in fact I was able to figure it out a while ago, and I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one.
He saw what McGwire and Sosa were able to accomplish on steroids, not to mention all the adulation and attention they were getting from their amazing season, became jealous (if not enraged), and figured that, gosh darnit, he would show everyone who the real best player in baseball was. End of story.
I think he might want to just fade off to Bolivia.
Where is Chrissy? I think he would find this story somewhat interesting.
The decaying remnants of the pro-steroid crowd are just not well represented in this thread.
According to the book, Bonds was debating between murdering McGwire and Sosa and taking steroids even more aggressively.
If those were the only two options he considered, I think we should all be happy with how this turned out.
That's not exactly how ego works, I don't think.
1. Expensive is numero uno, except it doesn't really apply to Barry Bonds.
2. Time consuming and distracting. Ask Mr. Clinton about that.
And the big ones:
3. Keeps the story in the headlines far longer.
4. To prevail, Bonds (as a public figure) has to prove the story false. THEN he has to prove that the authors were acting with malice (which, in a defamation context, means essentially that they acted with reckless disregard for the truth.) In other words, merely proving it false isn't enough; he has to prove that they didn't have a good faith belief that it was true when they printed it. That's almost impossible.
Now, one can argue that for Bonds' purposes, it may be enough to prove it false; he wouldn't recover money but he'd at least have an adjudication that it was false. But how does he prove it false? How does he prove that, years ago, he didn't use steroids? It's not easy.
5. Finally, if any parts of it are true, even if they're not the steroid-related parts, that may well be established during the course of the suit. His alleged affair. Tax evasion. Whatever.
We have people approach us about defamation suits all the time. We always turn them away. It's just so rarely worth it. And that's for private figures; for public figures, it's even less so, because the burden of proof is so much higher. Only for trade libel cases would I ever recommend suing, and often not even then.
I can't even tell whether or not that's a joke anymore.
Then it sounds like you would enjoy the book because the advance sheet seems to indicate that it will not only include the detailed investigation by the IRS agents, it will discuss the documentary evidence that coorberates their conclusions, the statements of Kimberly Bell and "...court documents, affidavits filed by BALCO investigators, confidential memoranda of federal agents (including statements made to them by athletes and trainers), grand jury testimony, audiotapes and interviews with more than 200 sources. "
Best Regards
John
I believe Mr. Bonds is royally ######; take all the illegal steroids you want, but for God's sake, don't you DARE cheat your taxes!
Al Capone -- the Italian Barry Bonds?
Both allegedly cheated on their taxes, both had quick tempers, and both were evidently pretty handy with a baseball bat.
No, it isn't. I've posted at length on this issue before. There is no clinical or preclinical evidence whatsoever to support the contention that exogenous hGH will improve eyesight in normal individuals.
Working six different performance-enhancing substances simultaneously is pretty hardcore, if it's true.
I should know this for sure, but does he have to prove it false, or is truth an affirmative defense for the authors to prove?
I know and agree that the malice issue is a significant deterrent, of course.
While I wouldn't go so far as to say that he definitely is one, I've thought for a while now that Bonds does exhibit a lot of the classic behavioral characteristics of a functional sociopath.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if he's managed to convince himself that he's never really done anything wrong and that he's just a victim of society. This book is going to be interesting to say the least.
This is a joke, right?
There are no documents referenced about earlier usage other than assertions that prosecutors have lots of pages of stuff (they always do but it is often irrelvant or ambiguous and is also not subject to cross-examination in a GJ proceeding), and the prosecutors (objective public servants, you know) are convinced of his earlier usage and no one gains muscle like that without juicing, etc.
Was there ever really a "pro-steroid crowd?"
A quick summary:
1. BALCO's James Valente states that Greg Anderson brought Barry to BALCO prior to the 2003 season with the intent of acquiring undetectable steroids. Valente states that he provided Anderson with steroids to give to Bonds (note that Valente does not say he supplied Bonds directly).
2. BALCO's Victor Conte "gave an identical account of Anderson's bringing Bonds to BALCO and Bonds's subsequent use of the Cream and the Clear."
3. Calendars allegedly plotting Bonds' steroid use were found in Greg Anderson's home, though Anderson denied ever providing Bonds with steroids.
4. According to "Olympic shot putter C. J. Hunter", Victor Conte informed him in 2003 that BALCO had been providing Bonds with "the Clear." Hunter's attorney later denied that Conte had named Bonds.
The decaying remnants of the pro-steroid crowd are just not well represented in this thread.
If you mean Dial, he's in Key West. I had a few cocktails with him and his wife on Sunday.
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