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Sunday, July 27, 2008

SI: Heyman - Mets won’t deal for unhappy Manny

The Mets are seeking a corner outfielder as the July 31 trade deadline approaches, and Mets GM Omar Minaya has long been an admirer of embattled Red Sox star Manny Ramirez. But even the Mets are saying “no’’ to Ramirez now.
...
Red Sox GM Theo Epstein told Tim McCarver on FOX’s broadcast of the Yankees-Red Sox game that he would try to trade Ramirez if Ramirez would waive his no-trade clause. As a 10-and-5 player, Ramirez has veto power over trades.

However, baseball people doubt there’d be a great trade market for Ramirez considering his contractual situation and recent transgressions.
...
The Mets had interest in Casey Blake and Xavier Nady but may now turn their attention to Mariners left fielder Raul Ibanez. Pirates star Jason Bay is also available, but Mets people balked at including top outfield prospect Fernando Martinez for Nady and are said to be extremely reluctant to part with either Martinez or lefthanded pitching prospect Jon Niese.

NTNgod Posted: July 27, 2008 at 05:52 AM | 45 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: mets, red sox, rumors

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1. Russlan will never be fond of Jason Bay Posted: July 27, 2008 at 06:24 AM (#2876319)

Man, how many times have the Manny-to-the-Mets trade rumors resurfaced over the years? It's not happening.

I am sure Omar loves Manny's bat but do you think he'll go after Ramirez this offseason? They already have Beltran and Church who are under the Mets control through the 2011 season. They obviously love Fernando Martinez so I doubt they want to lock anyone up long-term at a corner outfield position.

I am not even sure the Mets have to make a move for an outfielder. Tatis has a .840 OPS right now and is even drawing walks. He hit in the minors the last two seasons. I think he might be a .750 OPS hitter. Is it really worth giving up more for a marginal upgrade like Ibanez?

2. Esoteric Posted: July 27, 2008 at 06:38 AM (#2876328)

If the Mets really only had to give up Niese (plus maybe some filler) for Ramirez, they would be nuts not to do it. Nuts.

3. Russlan will never be fond of Jason Bay Posted: July 27, 2008 at 06:52 AM (#2876331)

If the Mets really only had to give up Niese (plus maybe some filler) for Ramirez, they would be nuts not to do it. Nuts.

Of course, they'd be nuts but I am also positive that the Red Sox want much more than that for Ramirez because there's no way Boston would make that trade. The draft picks they'll get for Manny are worth more to them than Niese especially when you consider they'd have to replace Manny.

The article is worded awkwardly. Fernando is probably as untouchable as any prospect in the game (the Mets LOVE him) but I am sure the Mets would move Niese in the right deal despite their reluctance to move the one starter in their farm system that could help them in 2009.

You know what would be kind of interesting? A Manny Ramirez for Ramon Castro and Jon Niese trade. Considering how toasty Varitek is looking, I think this trade would help replace a lot of the offense that the Sox would be losing and Castro is signed for another year. Niese is also a good prospect that could be used in a deal to replace Manny. It's never going to happen though as there's no way the Sox would do that Varitek.

4. The District Attorney Posted: July 27, 2008 at 06:56 AM (#2876332)

I am sure Omar loves Manny's bat but do you think he'll go after Ramirez this offseason? They already have Beltran and Church who are under the Mets control through the 2011 season.

Church can be the fourth OF.

I am not even sure the Mets have to make a move for an outfielder. Tatis has a .840 OPS right now and is even drawing walks. He hit in the minors the last two seasons. I think he might be a .750 OPS hitter. Is it really worth giving up more for a marginal upgrade like Ibanez?

Well, somebody has to play right field also.

5. Russlan will never be fond of Jason Bay Posted: July 27, 2008 at 07:03 AM (#2876333)

Church can be the fourth OF.

A healthy Church is far too good a player to be a fourth outfielder. He is a 115-120 OPS+ hitter with excellent defense in rightfield. You can never tell with concussion but if he comes back healthy, he deserves to be starting.

Well, somebody has to play right field also.

I should have added "assuming Church can come back"

6. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: July 27, 2008 at 07:07 AM (#2876336)

Why trade for him, if they can just sign him next year

7. Crispix Attacks Posted: July 27, 2008 at 07:13 AM (#2876337)

Well, this year counts too.

8. Russlan will never be fond of Jason Bay Posted: July 27, 2008 at 07:15 AM (#2876339)

Why trade for him, if they can just sign him next year

Because an increased chance of winning in 2008 is worth something? Because you save yourself a first round pick if you want to extend him? Because you get 2 high draft picks if he leaves?

9. Walt Davis Posted: July 27, 2008 at 07:16 AM (#2876340)

Bay's still signed for next year at a reasonable rate isn't he? If so and if they can get him for Niese, I'd do that in a second. (Frankly I might even move F-Mart but I'm crazy that way.)

10. Russlan will never be fond of Jason Bay Posted: July 27, 2008 at 07:20 AM (#2876343)

Bay's still signed for next year at a reasonable rate isn't he? If so and if they can get him for Niese, I'd do that in a second. (Frankly I might even move F-Mart but I'm crazy that way.)

I am sure the Mets would do the same but there's no way the Pirates would do that. I am sure the Mets like Niese but they know he's not a guy who is ever going to contend for a Cy Young.

11. Esoteric Posted: July 27, 2008 at 07:21 AM (#2876344)

I want the Pirates to deal Bay to the Rays so badly. I mean, why can't Andrew Friedman just walk up to Huntington and say, "hey, you know how you basically got crap for Nady/Marte? Well I can give you something that's actually better than that." And then send him something like Niemann/Hellickson/junk.

12. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: July 27, 2008 at 09:05 AM (#2876356)

Because you get 2 high draft picks if he leaves?

I believe that is only if the Sox offer him arbitration.

13. Mattbert Posted: July 27, 2008 at 09:44 AM (#2876358)

I sincerely doubt Manny will be traded unless the Red Sox have a deal for one of the Bay/Dunn/Holliday troika lined up as the next domino in the chain.

14. Best Regards, Larry M. Posted: July 27, 2008 at 09:53 AM (#2876360)

What if someone gave Manny some ice cream? Would the Mets deal for him then?

15. OCD SS Posted: July 27, 2008 at 11:44 AM (#2876376)

If the Mets are determined to get an OFer before the deadline, it kind of looks like their options are either Raul or Manny, as I think it's obvious that they don't have the chips to land Bay. I kind of assume that if Manny is available, it's at a discounted price; who would Mets fans rather have?

16. OCD SS Posted: July 27, 2008 at 12:10 PM (#2876378)

After checking in with my favorite newsbot, there are already reports from the Dodgers, Angels, and Mets that they are not interested in Manny. Teams are going out of their way to deny any interest in him.

17. JThompson Posted: July 27, 2008 at 02:50 PM (#2876427)

If the Angels haven't been interested in Bonds in spite of their need for patience and power, why would they be interested in Manny after these last few incidents? This is Scioscia's team, he runs a pretty tight ship, and he has cut bait on similar distractions in the middle of a pennant race - see Jose Guillen circa 2004.

18. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 27, 2008 at 02:54 PM (#2876432)

You know what would be kind of interesting? A Manny Ramirez for Ramon Castro and Jon Niese trade.

The Red Sox could also include a platoon of flying ponies to deliver the news to Mets fans living out-of-state.

19. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 27, 2008 at 02:56 PM (#2876433)

I sincerely doubt Manny will be traded unless the Red Sox have a deal for one of the Bay/Dunn/Holliday troika lined up as the next domino in the chain.

Exactly. Theo is plotting out one of his traditional eight-moving-pieces, four-team deals that never actually get done before July 31st.

And one of these years, he'll totally pull it off and blow our minds. It's like Theo's Smiley Smile.

20. The Kids Are Enright (1k5v3L)

Posted: July 27, 2008 at 02:58 PM (#2876435)

A Manny Ramirez for Ramon Castro and Jon Niese trade.

But won't you need Niese to acquire Jason Bay? Maybe Castro and Tatis? The Red Sox get a big bat for LF to replace Manny.

21. Russlan will never be fond of Jason Bay Posted: July 27, 2008 at 03:31 PM (#2876476)

The Red Sox could also include a platoon of flying ponies to deliver the news to Mets fans living out-of-state.

They aren't going to get much more than that for him which is why he's not going anywhere. Don't underestimate how much of an upgrade Castro would be over Varitek.

22. The Kids Are Enright (1k5v3L)

Posted: July 27, 2008 at 03:38 PM (#2876486)

Don't underestimate how much of an upgrade Castro would be over Varitek.

Heh. Mets fans.

23. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 27, 2008 at 03:41 PM (#2876489)

Castro's really been having his way with the ball this year. The ball never consents, but he swings away regardless. It's been a forcible performance.

24. Perros Posted: July 27, 2008 at 03:56 PM (#2876505)

Manny will like finish his career as a red stocking. Nobody's going to trade for him (even if the Sox eat half his salary) and nobody's going to give him anywhere close to $20 mil when he's done in Beantown.

Boston is stuck with him.

25. The Kids Are Enright (1k5v3L)

Posted: July 27, 2008 at 03:59 PM (#2876509)

Castro's really been having his way with the ball this year. The ball never consents, but he swings away regardless. It's been a forcible performance.

The ball and Castro do settle out of the ballpark

26. The Kids Are Enright (1k5v3L)

Posted: July 27, 2008 at 04:01 PM (#2876511)

Boston is stuck with him.

Through the end of this season, sure. But Boston has all the power for the next two seasons.
Hey Manny, how do you like Jeff Moorad now, huh? Ain't he a kick in the nuts?
Yup, I feel the same way

27. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 27, 2008 at 04:11 PM (#2876520)

Through the end of this season, sure. But Boston has all the power for the next two seasons.
Hey Manny, how do you like Jeff Moorad now, huh? Ain't he a kick in the nuts?
Yup, I feel the same way

I can't see how this situation is bad for Manny. He's either a FA, or makes $20M next year. I think $20M is substantially more than he'll get in the open market (3/40?), so, there's really no downside.

28. Perros Posted: July 27, 2008 at 04:11 PM (#2876521)

If the Sox don't pick up his option, is there a buyout clause, and will they get any draft picks if they choose to let him walk?

29. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 27, 2008 at 04:17 PM (#2876526)

If the Sox don't pick up his option, is there a buyout clause, and will they get any draft picks if they choose to let him walk?

To get picks they have to offer arbitration. Cots has no buyouts listed. $1M bonus if traded.

30. The District Attorney Posted: July 27, 2008 at 04:26 PM (#2876532)

A healthy Church is far too good a player to be a fourth outfielder. He is a 115-120 OPS+ hitter with excellent defense in rightfield. You can never tell with concussion but if he comes back healthy, he deserves to be starting.

I thought he was a ok starter/great 4th OF when the Mets got him, and although he played terrific for two months, I still believe that. You end up using all four guys anyway, usually when someone gets hurt, but even if they don't; look at this year's Dodgers for instance. It'd probably be smart in any event to give the aging Manny frequent rest, and not to run F-Mart out there for 150 games either. Met happy talk aside, we still have no real reason to believe F-Mart will be ready before '11. The kid's playing mediocre at Binghamton. Yes, I know, he's very young. Which is the point.

I should have added "assuming Church can come back"

Given the impossible-to-diagnose nature of the injury and the Corey Koskie experience, let's not assume he'll be back at all, much less this year.

Naturally, I have no idea what the Sox would want for Manny and think the chance of him going to the Mets is pretty minimal, but if those talks do take place, neither Church nor F-Mart should be considerations, IMO.

31. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: July 27, 2008 at 04:28 PM (#2876535)

Niese and F-Mart would probably be the price for Bay.

If I were the Mets, I'd give it some serious consideration. Neither Niese or F-Mart are quite as good as the BTF Met fans think they are. Niese is a B- pitching prospect and F-Mart is a B+ outfield prospect.

32. Russlan will never be fond of Jason Bay Posted: July 27, 2008 at 04:32 PM (#2876539)

Niese and F-Mart would probably be the price for Bay.

I don't think anyone including the Met front office thinks Niese is that good but I highly doubt the Mets are going to move Fernando. Right or wrong, the Met front office thinks he's special. He is their Justin Upton.

33. Benji Posted: July 27, 2008 at 04:44 PM (#2876554)

Why not Randy Winn? Cheaper than Bay, better than Ibanez and not a jerk like Manny. Give me reasons, BTF!!

34. Russlan will never be fond of Jason Bay Posted: July 27, 2008 at 04:51 PM (#2876560)

Why not Randy Winn? Cheaper than Bay, better than Ibanez and not a jerk like Manny. Give me reasons, BTF!!

Because he is not very good and he is signed through the 2009 season.

35. Benji Posted: July 27, 2008 at 04:56 PM (#2876564)

Would you rather have Ibanez?

36. Crispix Attacks Posted: July 27, 2008 at 05:01 PM (#2876571)

Randy Winn is a better fielder than Ibanez, but a worse hitter. And he's significantly more expensive than Bay, according to Cot's Baseball Contracts. And how do you know he's not a jerk?

37. Benji Posted: July 27, 2008 at 05:07 PM (#2876578)

"Randy Winn is a better fielder than Ibanez, but a worse hitter. And he's significantly more expensive than Bay, according to Cot's Baseball Contracts. And how do you know he's not a jerk?"

When I said "cheaper" I meant in prospects you'd have to give up. And he may be a jerk, but if he was anything like Manny he'd be playing with Carl Everett.

38. rfloh Posted: July 27, 2008 at 05:18 PM (#2876589)

Why not Randy Winn? Cheaper than Bay, better than Ibanez and not a jerk like Manny. Give me reasons, BTF!!

I dunno. Winn's D is much better than Ibanez, Ibanez is a much better hitter. They probably about balance out. Winn will cost the remainder of $8M this season, and another $8M next; Ibanez has only the remainder of his $5M contract. Not that that should matter much to the Mets.

Winn is a type B player, Ibanez is a type A; Ibanez could net you 2 first round picks.

39. Justin 'The Cespedobear' T Posted: July 27, 2008 at 05:24 PM (#2876596)

Or in the Mets case, two college relievers.

40. rfloh Posted: July 27, 2008 at 05:38 PM (#2876624)

Or in the Mets case, two college relievers.

Yeah, like Reese Havens and Ike Davis.

41. OCD SS Posted: July 27, 2008 at 09:13 PM (#2876983)

Manny talked to ESPN deportes, and it looks like what he wants is either a long term deal, or to be let go (ie not have his options picked up), but he will waive his 10-5 rights under those conditions. If the Sox let him go they should be able to offer arbitration pretty safely after the season is over.

42. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 27, 2008 at 09:54 PM (#2877024)

The Mets just flat-out don't have enough to make a good Bay package. F-Mart has less value to the Pirates than to the Mets, given the teams' relative levels of OF depth. And the Mets have exactly one prospect in the Pirates' three biggest areas of organizational weakness: SP, SS, and C.

If they can get a good offer from a team with depth in those areas (like the Dodgers or Rays), they'll maybe flip him. If not, there's no real downside to holding him until the offseason and reevaluating then.

43. Benji Posted: July 27, 2008 at 10:01 PM (#2877033)

I guess I remembered the last time Randy Winn got picked up for the stretch drive.
58 games, 231 AB, 1.071 OPS. Tatis-like! I don't want Martinez or Neise traded so I'm looking for a cheaper pickup, or no pickup.

44. Raskolnikov Posted: July 27, 2008 at 11:43 PM (#2877075)

I'm comfortable going with what we have. Endy/Tatis and hopefully Church. Fernando isn't going anywhere.

Ibanez is too poor a defensive OFer and Winn doesn't hit enough. Manny has too much baggage and Bay will cost too much.

This reminds me of 2006 when everyone wanted the Mets to trade the farm for a starting pitcher. We're good enough with what we have. Speaking of which, where's bibigon? I think he wants to trade Manny for Fernando/Pelfrey.

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SI: Heyman - Mets won’t deal for unhappy Manny

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