Reason/Voice/Poz.
Within seconds of the interview ending, I began to hear analysts tearing up McGwire. Then I read some columnists’ thoughts—they mostly ripped into the man, too. And the more I read, the more I heard, the more I realized that most people did not see this thing the way I saw it. Apparently, McGwire was not contrite enough. He was not believable enough. He was not specific enough. He would not admit that steroids made him the great home run hitter he became. He did not tell the whole truth. He did not sound sincere enough. And on. And on. And on.
Wow. I have spent the last few hours trying to replay this in my head. Why didn’t I see what so many other people apparently did see? The big thing seems to be McGwire’s refusal to accept that steroids made him a better hitter. This apparently trampled many people’s sensibilities. But, the thing is, I didn’t need him to admit that, and, to be honest, I didn’t want for him to admit it.* We all have our opinions about steroids and what they do. That is his opinion. I didn’t need him saying something he did not believe… isn’t that the very definition of “insincere?”
...When Mark McGwire finished with his day of apologies, I forgave him. It doesn’t mean I look at his 70 home run season the way I did in 1998. It doesn’t mean that I respect the choices he made. It doesn’t even mean that I agree with his self-scouting report. No. I just mean that if there was any anger or resentment toward him for cheating, it is gone now. He admitted and he apologized. Now, he wants to coach baseball. He wants to speak out against steroids. He wants people to remember that he was a damned good hitter who worked hard at the game. I wish him well and hope all those things for him.
As for so many others—many of them friends of mine—who do not feel like he met the forgiveness bar and felt like this whole apology thing was a sham, well, as I’ve said, I have been wrong plenty before. One friend emailed me with this line: “Why SHOULD I forgive him?” It’s just my opinion: But I think the answer is in the question.
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Just don't "forget", i.e. discount his achievements appropriately. Don't tell me he was a better HR hitter than Babe Ruth, or Barry Bonds was a better hitter than Ted Williams.
I think it has more to do with the home run record than the HOF.
Joe Posnanski being sane and reasonable is as regular as the sun coming up in the morning.
A perfect game played by imperfect people, run by imperfect owners, overseen by imperfect commissioners, watched by imperfect fans. Thus it has always been and thus it will always be.
If McGwire had said he would have been Neifi Perez without the steroids (and yeah, I'm aware of the irony in the comparison), people would be seizing on something else.
The mobs want their pound of flesh and they'll be the ones measuring what constitutes a pound, thank you very much.
"We all have our opinions about steroids and what they do. That is his opinion. I didn’t need him saying something he did not believe… isn’t that the very definition of “insincere?”"
I, like a lot of others, don't believe he sincerely believes what he is saying. I think he DID say something he doesn't believe, because the only way he can reconcile his admission of steroid use and his results on the field, and come to the conclusion that he was not cheating, is if we believe that taking steroids did not have a significant impact on the quality of his performance. This is silly. Steroids can mess you up in a myriad of ways physically, and they carry both legal and public relations problems. You're telling me, Mark, that you used steroids for a decade, knowing for much f it that they didn't help you perform athletically? Whatever.
By the way, has Jose Canseco been substantially wrong in any of his claims about other players to this point?
Really? How good was the quality of the Negro leagues in their lifetimes? Honest question here.
edit: I'm talking about average quality, not just greats like Josh Gibson, or Satchel Paige.
But that's truly and absolutely unknowable -- never underestimate people's ability to delude themselves. I absolutely believe McGwire himself believes this. I don't think it's scientifically accurate in the least, but that by no means detracts from Mac believing it.
Hell, that just makes McGwire human... we all have our little delusions we hold too dear to let go.
I think some purists want him to admit he could never have broken 61 without the extra help.
Steroids probably did give him a boost in HR totals, but whether it did or didn't isn't within his power to "admit." In the context of the entire interview, in which I think he expressed genuine regret for letting people close to him down, hectoring him about that small point isn't particularly noble.
He had it within him to hit 62 HRs in a season without chemical help and I wish he'd have tried. The most noteworthy part of the interview was his genuine expression that he wishes he'd tried.
And when you show me how they personally worked to keep blacks out of MLB I'll count it against them.
That having been said, at the time he was admittedly using, they really didn't carry any of the problems you discuss. Nobody cared about the issue. They were freely and widely available; anybody going to any gym could get them (they had only been Scheduled a few years earlier, and weren't exactly a high law enforcement priority).
That is an interesting comment. I had never considered the levels of gray in culpability. I wouldn't argue a case against Ruth or Williams but I could probably put a good one for Anson, Hornsby, and Speaker. Not airtight of course but a good case. How do we count it against them?
Yep.
Then you're not trying to find out who was the best home run hitter. That they didn't directly caused the advantage doesn't mean they didn't benefitted.
"Look, I know I dodged this issue in front of Congress, and have, in the past, either said or implied that I was not taking steroids during my career. Well, I did, and I realize that many people strongly believe that this gave me an unfair advantage over those players who did not use such steroids. Before I started using the stuff, I was a prolific hitter in college, the minors, and a Rookie of the Year who hit 49 HRs in a tough ballpark...so I know I was a helluva player before I started using steroids regularly. But I was getting injured a lot, and those injuries were taking me off the field for an increasing amount of time. My career was on the line, and I saw other players using steroids in an effort to extend or improve their careers, so I did it, too.
"I don't know how much taking steroids helped me - either in staying on the field more often, avoiding injuries, or being a more productive player on the field. Some people think it probably made all the difference. Other people think it probably played a very small role, given my performance before I started using steroids. I don't know.
"But I know that I was breaking the rules of the game, and I was breaking the law. Whether or not it actually helped me reach the heights I reached, I should not have knowingly broken rules or laws; it was wrong, and I am very sorry. It has hurt my reputation significantly, and I understand why. It has played a role in harming the game which has given me so much, and it has put some of my peers in awkward situations, including Tony LaRussa, that they did not deserve to be in.
"Acknowledging my past actions does not singlehandedly atone for them, but it is a step. I look forward to helping the Cardinals as a hitting coach, and putting this behind me - not by pretending it didn't happen, but my facing it head-on, and trying to give back to the game of baseball in a number of ways.
"I will provide opportunities to extensively answer many of your questions in the near future, prior to the beginning of the 2010 baseball season. Once the seaosn begins, however, I will not answer such questions, as it will detract from the play on the field of those who did not exercises the errors in judgment that I did. Thank you."
That's a perfectly valid point but one that is irrelevent when evaluating their performance. Whether or not they wanted a segregated game or not they had one and therefore were performing against lesser competition. Todd Helton didn't necessarily choose to play in Colorado but he does and we have to account for that when evaluating him.
Yup, all of them. Not factually incorrect about their use. But wrong nonetheless. Not that I need to hear it but I can respect a player who talks about his own transgressions while leaving others--both innocent and guilty--alone. Didn't have much use for Whittaker Chambers either.
Integration wouldn't have cost Ruth, Williams, etc. their MLB jobs. But several of the folks pitching to them and fielding their batted balls wouldn't have made the majors. Who knows how well the all time greats would have done against the truly best competition available.
well some would be satisfied if there were groveling, but many? They'd be momentarily amused at a grown man grovelling. but after that? They'd still hate McGwire.
To be honest I'm surprised at some of the venom I've seen written the past 24 hours, I used to comment on how some of the anti-peders seemed more anti-Barry than anything else- no one received the sheer venom that Bonds did... I may have to rethink that a bit.
The hate directed at McGwire is largely real I think, not just sportswriter posturing, but like the hate directed at Obama during Tea Party demonstrations it is more than bit divorced from reality. Basically I think they saw things like 61 and 755 as being holy/sacred, and what McGwire/Bonds did as an act of desecration, an affront to all that is holy or good. Even when they have a point, that point is overwhelmed by the sheer emotional/irrational
they both are.
Star player using repeatedly in attempts to get better is more of an advertisement for kids than the same player's after-the-fact discouragement is a deterrent.
There's no reason whatsoever to think that Roger Maris was inherently a better homerun hitter than Mark McGwire. I wouldn't say the same thing about Bonds, and that's where I think things got dicey with a lot of people. McGwire's 70 would be seen in a different light if Bonds hadn't hit 73, then 762.
are we talking about McGwire here?
And Posnanski's last point is a pretty powerful one. Forgiveness is always done more for the sake of the forgiver than the forgiven.
And that's really why we should forgive all these players -- so we can stop having these threads!
No one gives a #### about football records or awards.
EDIT: Except for anything Miami Hurricane related.
Well, no one's seriously considered putting asterisks next to the World Series titles of the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels (or any other recent winner).
Merriman's Pro Bowl selection during the year of his suspension did receive criticism, and forced (I believe) the league to prohibit guys who get suspensions from pro bowl participation.
I don't know anything about Julius Peppers, so I can't really comment on 3. But no
one's really advocated removing Matt Lawton's homers from the books either.
Is there more ire directed at baseball's record holders? Undoubtedly. But that's kind good thing. It means, deep down, we care about the sport and its participants in a way that we don't care about football. I suppose there are a lot of reasons why, but ultimately football players are anonymous and expendable, and the public treats them as such. If they want to destroy their body through the juice, well, they were going to destroy it through playing the damn game anyway.
Purely off the top of my head...Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez, Alex Rodriguez, Magglio Ordonez, Roger Clemens.
Just curious: Has anyone in the MSM ever called for the removal of Shawn Merriman's Defensive Rookie of the Year Award or considered putting asterisks next to the Patriot's SB titles (Rodney Harrison), or striking Julius Pepper's sacks from the books?
- asterisk football players?????
scorn
contempt
dude, pleeeeze
even jeff pearlman doesn't give 2 shtts if football players dope to the eyeballs with anything. they just a bunch of nameless, faceless, disposable ghetto nigs and why bother to care about That Trash who are prolly already on drugs and ain't other wise good fer nothin? and who cares that their life span is a dozen years at LEAST shorter than the average african american man? or that most of them live in endless, chronic pain and have no decent medical plan/retirement plan like the ML players do?
eff em
besides, nobody gives 2 shtts about football records
they care ONLY about The Sacred Home Run Record
which is why the media never EVER talks about anyone else CAUGHT using roids. or confessed to using roids (wally joyner, fp santangelo) or demands that anyone caught using or confessed to using have every last stat removed from the records.
nope
they ONLY talk about the stupid home run record. because that really IS all they care about. if mcgwire, sosa and bonds hadn't hit over 61, the ballplayers all STILL be using roids and wouldn't nobody care, neither
they ESPECIALLY ignore the alex sanchez/manny alexander guys because using roids didn't turn them into home run hitters, like they say roids did with mcgwire. disproves their entire justification for mcgwire hate
I never thought apologizing was an Olympic sport with stoned-faced people judging how straight his toes were pointed and if he made too big a splash.
...
There are always reasons to not forgive. No apology is perfect. No apology comes early enough. No apology goes deep enough. No apology covers every aspect of things. And there's a reason for this. No apology can erase the wrong in the first place.
Among his fellow sportswriters, Joe Posnanski is like that line from 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail':
"He must be a king."
"Why?"
"He hasn't got shit all over him."
Bret Boone too.
Health warning are as useful to the young athlete as warnings about drug use, drunk driving or STDs. They think they're immortal.
The most annoying people in the debate are those who say the steroid users are worse than the players who threw games. At least the users were trying to win, which the least I expect from an honest athletic competition.
You know, I think partly we romanticize baseball records to a degree we don't in other sports, but I also suspect it has something to do with the fact that since baseball players look more like us than do players in other sports (e.g. than 7-foot basketball acrobats or 6-5, 250 lb. football players that run a 4.5), we think those stars could be us if only we had worked harder or had better coaching or whatever. The use of PEDs seems to violate the illusion.
I thought Boone fell into the "I was confident he was using but had no firsthand knowledge" category along with Sammy Sosa and such.
I wasn't sure on that so I gave a quick look on Wikipedia which says: "Although Canseco accused Roger Clemens of steroid use, he extolled Clemens' apparent marital fidelity, saying that Clemens was "one of the very few baseball players I know who never cheated on his wife."" and posted it. Wikipedia very well may be wrong...as can my memory.
This is why I think the trite coverage of the issue in the media is dangerous - they are strongly suggesting that taking PEDs directly = improved performance. What lesson are young players going to take from this?
I prefer bbc's explanation. Football has become a dangerous sport, and a highly exploitative business -- with obvious social connotations.
You can mention the small ball thing, that might get their attention.
I think this is an excellent point - and probably very near to the truth.
Sooo.... not an oracle?
So that leaves Magglio, Juan Gone, and Pudge as "unproven," though Gonzalez I recall had his trainer banned for lugging around something-that-might-be-steroids in an airport (and I could be forgetting something about Pudge). According to this site he also accused Wilson Alvarez, Bret Boone, Dave Martinez, and Tony Saunders (blamed his crazy arm breaks on it, apparently).
Also his brother, Ozzie, and Jason Giambi.
Health warning are as useful to the young athlete as warnings about drug use, drunk driving or STDs. They think they're immortal.
You can mention the small ball thing, that might get their attention.
- and then they notice that mcgwire didn't have no trouble fathering normal children back when he was shooting roids in college or after he finally stopped using roids in 2000 after 20 years of steady use
- and they notice that barry lamar didn't have no trouble screwing groupies
etcetcetc
I've been pushing this Buck O'Neill point for years, too, though the audience for my writing is about a dozen people, nine of whom don't care about baseball.
I know if I were a 15-year-old baseball player, the connection of Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds to steroids would have done more to improve my opinion of steroids than to harm my opinion of McGwire and Bonds. Especially when idiot sportswriters say things like "McGwire wouldn't have hit a single home run in the majors without steroids." Wow, steroids can take you from outside the majors to the brink of the Hall of Fame? Where can I get some?!?
When you're a kid, you don't really care about what Rick Reilly is going to write about you, or getting into the Hall of Fame, or embarrassing yourself in front of Congress. You care about being good at sports, looking buff, and getting chicks (which comes from the other two). Thanks to sportswriters harping on the steroid issue for ten years, telling us how much of an advantage steroids users get from simple pills or injections, millions of kids think that steroids are a magic ticket to athletic greatness, and they'll deal with the bad parts down the road.
That's the worst part of this whole "steroids scandal," and I think the media is as much to blame as the players. If steroids do so many wonderful things for athletes (that's almost all you ever hear about, except for the backne), it makes you wonder why they're illegal in the first place.
And Mike Crudale.
required.
lets ban contacts, lasix and glasses
I'm 30 and it certainly does.
DL - are you saying there were about 100 total players (with varying career lengths) or 100 every year for the 20 year period?
not arguing just curious.
Not to mention squinting
MAN is Poz awesome.
Still, at the end, we have what we have: he used. He didn't ask us not to consider it and if he's self-deluded, so what? Discount him what you will, forgive him or not.
Steroids do more than just make a player stronger. They improve eyesight, to the point where it's easier to see the spin on the seams.
dear mr anderson
would you be kind enough to provide a link to some MEDICAL references showing that any anabolic steroid administered to a normal adult male age 25 - 40 (before the age of needing reading glasses, that is) with normal eyesight actually IMPROVES that eyesight?
the theory that HGH does that has long since been thrown in the garbage can
thank you
But wouldn't the use of PEDs create the idea that talent can be bought, therefore reinforcing the illusion?
I would argue that "buying" talent is nonromantic. Obviously, this is a very subjective argument.
Yeah...and Joe Migraine said it on the MLB Network!
Did your fingers mean to type empathetic? I do stuff like that all the time too. I blame it on muscle memory.
I blame everyone but myself.
Paradoxically, however, you would not want to talk about the past. . .
I think Repoz just outed himself as Jack Keefe. ;)
Forgive me for double posting this from a different thread. It's pretty irrelevant whether Poz or I forgive McGwire, the damage has been done to other players who played by the 1991 rules.
But I still see a clear distinction between "forgiving" and forgetting, or between "forgiving" and historical amnesia. I don't see that McGwire needs to do any more apologizing, because after he's admitted using steroids and expressed his apologies once (many times within a few hours), what more can he say? In any case, I hope he's as good a hitting instructor as LaRussa thinks he'll be, and I wish him well.
But I draw the line at the Hall of Fame. That's an honor as well as a recognition of career value, and what McGwire did within the context of baseball was dishonorable, and IMO disqualifyingly so. That's "punishment" enough, and that's all the punishment he deserves, no more and no less.
***I wouldn't put Ty Cobb or Steve Carlton in my HoF for human beings, but that's another matter altogether.
What's your opinion on Gaylord Perry?
I was always under the impression that Lefty was just really, really crazy?
Spitballs are out in the open, and there's a clear and well-defined fine if you're caught using them. As I said in a long ago thread, if McGwire had done his juicing in front of a dugout full of observing opponents' eyes, four umpires, a ballpark full of fans, and an entire work force of closeup TV cameras, I'd view his offense quite a bit differently.
That, plus a fair amount of "crazy" thoughts against Jews, along the usual lines of Unseen Controlling Forces, etc. But even beyond that he was just kind of creepy, though still eminently Cooperstownworthy.
Hey, Srul, tell you what: You can have the rest of the argument to yourself. Just don't violate any community standards of fair play and decency, since there may be children lurking.
Wait, what?
you can go to my blog and read MY take...
I agree with all of this up to the word "disqualifyingly." What is your philosophical objection to trying to adjust the statistical record as best we can, with the understanding that we may be wrong?(**)
(**) I assume you'll stick with your automatic disqualification stance if it comes out that Jeter was using. There's not a whole lot of reason to think he was -- beyond being a Yankee when at least two prominent Yankees used. We can say that, though, about hundreds of players for whom there's no extant evidence against, but who must have been using if the best guess as to percentages (upwards of 50%) are accurate.
If someone asked me about Captain Dreamboat and said the penalty for being wrong was my head going the way of Louis XVI's, I'd say "user."
Except for the elaborate lengths pitchers, catchers and other co-conspirators went to to hide the fact that they were loading/scuffing/cutting the ball.
Oh, that's right... a bit of googling caused me to remember that he got a bit of the illuminatti/12 Jewish Bankers bug a few years ago (he denies the interview was accurate, though).
Still, Carlton strikes me as more the Oliver Stone crazy than the Adolf Hitler crazy.
It can be difficult to keep your crazy Phillies of yesteryear straight. It's really unfair that Mike Schmidt hogged all the sanity.
It would be an interesting alternate reality if the majors had held off integration and after being given "open" status, the PCL Hollywood Stars had decided to integrate with former UCLA star Jackie Robinson on their way to the PCL declaring themselves a major league.
I agree with all of this up to the word "disqualifyingly." What is your philosophical objection to trying to adjust the statistical record as best we can, with the understanding that we may be wrong?(**)
I can see that as a task that would take about as long as it would take for Roseanne Barr to win a beauty contest---and she ain't getting any younger. The games can't be replayed and the records can't be altered---but we don't have to grant any further honors beyond that. There's absolutely no "obligation" to do anything of the sort.
You know what my favorite artifact of this whole past decade has been? The asterisk ball, because every time it's seen by more than one or two people, an argument starts, facts are countered with other facts, and the whole steroids issue is kept from being swept under some big old rug of Oprahesque "closure". Every person gets to make his own interpretation, and nobody is forced to STFU.
Still, Carlton strikes me as more the Oliver Stone crazy than the Adolf Hitler crazy.
Yeah, that's about my take, too. But still Major Creepy.
We should blame McCarver for being McCarver rather than playing more of a Crash Davis role. It's as if Crash let Nuke go on believing women get woolly.
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