Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, December 10, 2012

Sickels: George McClellan, Dayton Moore, and the Kansas City Royals


Dayton Moore is trying to avoid being McClellan. He’s got the farm system built up, the army trained and organized. He’s good at that. Now he’s taking the field of battle and deploying those forces. That’s admirable.

Of course, what’s the next part of the story? Is Moore going to turn into an aggressive, brilliant field commander like Ulysses S. Grant or William Tecumseh Sherman? Will he be cautious but effective like George Gordon Meade? Mercurial and erratic like Joe Hooker? Or will he be the well-meaning but dangerously inept Ambrose Burnside? The suicidally aggressive John Bell Hood?

Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: December 10, 2012 at 08:25 PM | 631 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: civil war, history, rays, royals

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 7 of 7 pages ‹ First  < 2 3 4 5 6 7
   601. Ron J2 Posted: January 10, 2013 at 03:12 PM (#4344314)
#598 Rocket armed fighter-bombers were the weapon of choice in the west. (Though I recall reading an after action report saying that the allies considerably overestimated how effective these were)

Also, naval bombardments were extremely effective against strong static defensive points. Naval support pretty much prevents massive gathering of tanks.

In the action McCoy describes the Mayo came to within 500 yards of the coast and did indeed engage specific targets. The Brooklyn was much bigger and had many more guns (15 six inch guns as well as 8 five inch as opposed to the Mayo which I believe had only 5 five inch guns) but couldn't come in nearly as close as the Mayo.
   602. zonk Posted: January 10, 2013 at 03:14 PM (#4344317)
Rommel's experiences in North Africa made him extremely fearful of Allied air power. Thus, he wanted to position his forces so as to neutralize that as best he could. Rundstedt knew the invasion would be fast and hard, and he wanted to maintain a flexible response, and he feared naval bombardment. In truth, the Germans were between and a rock and a hard place. They were at the choose your poison stage, podnuh.


Was it his experience in North Africa -- or -- his own experience, but from the other end, in the invasion of France?

One of the other advantages the Wehrmacht had in 1940 was that their tank columns were able to call in air support via radio in then-amazingly quick timeframes (15 minutes to 45 minutes, depending on which sources you use). The allies didn't quite have that advantage during the Normandy landings but would once they were able to secure a few airstrips.
   603. Ron J2 Posted: January 10, 2013 at 03:15 PM (#4344319)
#600 Large guns were called in to specific map coordinates. As at Salerno, the destroyers worked much closer in and could potentially go after a specific target. (typically fixed emplacements like pillboxes_
   604. Ron J2 Posted: January 10, 2013 at 03:19 PM (#4344324)
#602 He talked about his own experience on the receiving end.

And during the Normandy campaign as long as the weather cooperated it was pretty common to have fighter-bombers lurking -- waiting for targets of opportunity (or to be called in). The allies often had more tactical air power than they could effectively use. The extreme example being Falaise -- where the fighter-bombers had to queue up waiting their turn to attack.
   605. zenbitz Posted: January 10, 2013 at 07:54 PM (#4344586)
The other thing restricting the German armor in Normandy was lack of fuel... but they could barely even move during the day because of the allied planes.
   606. McCoy Posted: January 11, 2013 at 05:10 PM (#4345227)
I've been on a war jag the last couple of weeks but I'm slowly running out of books to read. Wouldn't mind reading something about the Spanish American war but I can't seem to get my hands on any good ones. Also wouldn't mind reading some of Mosier's books but again I can't get my hands on any of them.
   607. Ron J2 Posted: January 11, 2013 at 05:24 PM (#4345242)
#605 The effectiveness of the resistance is generally overplayed, but they also did a good job here. I remember reading that Das Reich encountered so many sabotaged bridges and what have you that it took them more than two weeks longer than expected to reach Normandy.

   608. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 11, 2013 at 05:38 PM (#4345259)
Wouldn't mind reading something about the Spanish American war


My favorite thing I read about the Spanish American War was how during the Battle of Cavite/Manila, Gridley was worried that they were running low on ammo and wanted to do a weapons check, but Dewey didn't want to worry the crew, so he called off firing and had the gun crews go to breakfast...
   609. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: January 11, 2013 at 05:43 PM (#4345263)
So what it sounds like was irregardless of what the Germans did, the Allies were going to be successful because of the amount of men and material they had. It was just going to be the question of how much casualties they were going to run into on that first day because there was no way the Germans would have been able to knock them off that beach head.

This link supposes what might have happened had it failed.
   610. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: January 11, 2013 at 05:50 PM (#4345268)
   611. McCoy Posted: January 11, 2013 at 06:24 PM (#4345300)
It's possible that the Allies could have failed on D-Day but under the conditions they did fight the battle under it was highly unlikely that they would fail and we only know that because we get to look back in hindsight and have all the information from both sides.
   612. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 11, 2013 at 08:21 PM (#4345371)
It was just going to be the question of how much casualties they were going to run into on that first day because there was no way the Germans would have been able to knock them off that beach head.


Omaha went as badly as it was possible to go- the preliminary bombardment (both Naval and Aviation) completely missed- the shore defenses were untouched- but we still took and held the beach area (and even if we hadn't Omaha would have been untenable for the Germans after a few days anyway- we had 5 landing beaches and Point du Hoc - the Germans would have to have outright repelled at least 3 of those landings (if not all of them)to have chance- but they only came close at one.

Te Japanese defended quite few more naval landings than Germany, they eventually decided that defending the beach given our naval and air superiority was futile - so they adopted the "cornered rat" defense- which was basically designed to inflict as many casualties on us as possible- while simultaneously conceding that the battle was going to be lost. Bad strategy/tactics- if the enemy has naval and air superiority that does in fact make to tougher to repel the initial landing- but it ALSO make repelling it imperative- when the guy with air and naval superiority gets toehold- he's in fact won the damn war- you can never dislodge him and he can build up and build up without you being able to prevent it
   613. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: March 07, 2013 at 07:37 AM (#4382647)
I see commercials for a movie about MacArthur starring Tommy Lee Jones.
   614. Ron J2 Posted: March 07, 2013 at 10:16 AM (#4382704)
#613 Interesting casting. I think it rates to work.
   615. Morty Causa Posted: March 07, 2013 at 10:31 AM (#4382715)
MacArthur, the general, has not been served well by cinema. I don't see that changing with this movie. Now, had Daniel Day-Lewis taken the role...? Part of the reason the MacArthur representations in film are unsatisfying is that MacArthur is not an easily accessible character like, oh, say, Patton.

Also, as to the movie's subject itself, I don't think MacArthur ever seriously considered doing away with the emperor. He thought the emperor had a real use. He understood what symbolism meant to a culture like Japan--indeed, he had been something of a symbol like that.
   616. zonk Posted: March 07, 2013 at 10:36 AM (#4382718)
Was this the thread that spawned some Diplomacy games?

If so - did anyone catch the news that Allan Calhamer, inventor of the board game -- died a week or so back?
   617. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: May 02, 2013 at 10:32 PM (#4432542)
Sure, this thread is old. But it's still possibly one of the greatest OT threads in the history of Primer, at least for history buffs.
   618. Mayor Blomberg Posted: May 02, 2013 at 10:45 PM (#4432558)
what Eso quotes in 25 is straight out of the Faulkner playbook.

Withdrew in 12 years to assure compliance the law. Well, that's one way of euphemising it.
   619. GregD Posted: May 03, 2013 at 01:45 PM (#4433038)
Brooks Simpson came up in this thread and his blog post today shows what he can do when he is not distracted by stomping on every neo-Confederate commentator but instead shows his own analysis to argue that the decisions 150 years ago today in Mississippi have a better case to be turning points than the simultaneous action near Chancellorsville. link
   620. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: October 11, 2013 at 09:11 PM (#4569692)
Sure, this thread is old. But it's still possibly one of the greatest OT threads in the history of Primer, at least for history buffs.


This is the last thread I ever bookmarked. It could be edited and published as an ebook.
   621. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: October 20, 2013 at 11:42 PM (#4579254)
Still a great thread!
   622. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: July 28, 2014 at 01:05 PM (#4759058)
It sure is, Depressoteric.
   623. McCoy Posted: July 28, 2014 at 02:14 PM (#4759102)
My dad got me No Simple Victory for Christmas and I found it dissapointing and boring.
   624. Ron J2 Posted: July 28, 2014 at 03:16 PM (#4759192)
#623 I'm thinking The War That Ended Peace (Margaret MacMillan) is next on my list. Road to WWI
   625. McCoy Posted: July 28, 2014 at 03:23 PM (#4759202)

Is there anything new there? There have been numerous great books about the road to WWI and I just wonder if there is any fresh veins to tap on that front.
   626. Ron J2 Posted: July 28, 2014 at 03:30 PM (#4759217)
#625 I was sort of thinking the same thing. That reservation is the reason I didn't buy it yesterday. I liked the research in her Paris 1919 book so I have hopes even if it's just in making it clear which stories are urban legends and which can be substantiated.
   627. McCoy Posted: July 28, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4759223)
I will probably take a look at Max Hastings's Catastrophe 1914.

I read Paris 1919 awhile back and have no recollection of it and unfortunately the same could be said for The Sleepwalkers.
   628. zenbitz Posted: July 29, 2014 at 04:58 PM (#4759897)
I have been reading "The Blitzkrieg Legend" (WWII obviously)... it's pretty good, although I suspect author likes to argue with strawmens.
   629. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: July 29, 2014 at 05:07 PM (#4759904)
Is there anything new there? There have been numerous great books about the road to WWI and I just wonder if there is any fresh veins to tap on that front.


It's not new, but Dreadnought is a must read on the subject.
   630. McCoy Posted: July 29, 2014 at 05:47 PM (#4759932)
Read it.
   631. McCoy Posted: July 29, 2014 at 05:54 PM (#4759934)
I said the other day that I read The Sleepwalkers and couldn't remember anything about it. Well, today I noticed I had it on my iPad where I discovered I hadn't started reading it yet. I guess that is why I couldn't remember anything about it.
Page 7 of 7 pages ‹ First  < 2 3 4 5 6 7

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
The Piehole of David Wells
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogSan Francisco Giants at Kansas City Royals - October 29, 2014 | MLB.com Box
(32 - 9:43am, Oct 30)
Last: RMc is a fine piece of cheese

Newsblog2014 WORLD SERIES GAME 7 OMNICHATTER
(1427 - 9:42am, Oct 30)
Last: Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site

NewsblogMadison Bumgarner, World Series legend - McCovey Chronicles
(17 - 9:38am, Oct 30)
Last: JE (Jason)

NewsblogJoe Maddon is to become Cubs manager, sources say
(59 - 9:38am, Oct 30)
Last: Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 10-30-2014
(2 - 9:37am, Oct 30)
Last: Dan Lee is some pumkins

NewsblogOT: NBC.news: Valve isn’t making one gaming console, but multiple ‘Steam machines’
(963 - 9:35am, Oct 30)
Last: PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth)

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - October 2014
(572 - 9:33am, Oct 30)
Last: HMS Moses Taylor

NewsblogOT: Politics, October 2014: Sunshine, Baseball, and Etch A Sketch: How Politicians Use Analogies
(4570 - 9:32am, Oct 30)
Last: snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster)

NewsblogAngell: The World Series is Almost Over
(1 - 9:22am, Oct 30)
Last: sotapop

NewsblogJapan Times: Nakamura belts three-run homer in 10th to put Hawks one win away from Japan Series title
(7 - 8:55am, Oct 30)
Last: Bourbon Samurai

NewsblogHeyman: Pablo Sandoval is on Boston's 3B wish list, but so is Chase Headley
(25 - 8:14am, Oct 30)
Last: PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth)

NewsblogRoad maps to pitching success in Game 7 | FOX Sports
(9 - 1:14am, Oct 30)
Last: Ray (RDP)

NewsblogESPN: Jose Canseco shoots self in hand
(66 - 11:53pm, Oct 29)
Last: eric

NewsblogOT:  Soccer (the Round, True Football), November 2014
(15 - 11:14pm, Oct 29)
Last: CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo

NewsblogOT:  October 2014 - College Football thread
(509 - 10:55pm, Oct 29)
Last: Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams)

Page rendered in 0.3191 seconds
53 querie(s) executed